Gnome Beguiler help

[el minster]

I'm building a gnome beguiler in a group with a duskblade, glaivlock and some kind of divine caster. I need some help for the lower levels and need a lot of help choosing PrCs. Thank you in advance :smile:

[Rebel7284]

Mindbender dip is considered great because mindsight feat is amazing and I believe it also delays your advanced learning just enough to pick a higher level spell.

Shadowcraft Mage is the best prestige class for Begilers.

As for general advice, remember that you're a caster, not a rogue. Don't get into melee.

[Edea]

Definitely use Mindbender to delay your Advanced Learning, as it'll allow you to pick up a 4th level Illusion(shadow) spell for Shadowcraft Mage qualification (shadow well from the Spell Compendium's a decent one; I'd avoid shadow conjuration as the whole point of the PrC is outperforming that spell (and shadow evocation) with heightened silent images). You'll want Heighten Spell and Rapid Metamagic as feats.

I'd wrap it up with Nightmare Spinner. Qualifying is automatic for a beguiler. Normally the lost CL at 1st is an ouchie, but for a beguiler/shadowcraft mage it's a non-issue thanks to the Bonus Spell (Ex) feature, as it tacks on an extra spell slot for each level; the catch is that these slots have to be filled with illusion spells, but guess what heightened silent images are?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Bloodline feats in Dragon Compendium are amazing, just be sure you pick one that has an inconsequential drawback. Every bloodline feat causes you to be unable to cast a specific type of spell ever again, such as fire spells or healing spells. Pick one that prohibits a type of spells that's not even on your class list anyway.

Take Versatile Spellcaster, it allows you to spend two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that's one level higher. By itself it's worthwhile for the versatility it adds. Ask your DM if this gets you early access to the next higher level of the Beguiler spell list. If not and if you don't have a bloodline feat you'll also want Heighten Spell, being able to effectively cast spells one level higher than your highest level spell slots makes your Advanced Learning spell choices one level higher.

Absolutely get a single level of Mindbender as others have suggested. If you want to stick with Beguiler otherwise you'll do fine, your advanced learning spells can be 2nd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 9th level with that dip and the above Versatile Spellcaster trick. My choices for those would be Ray of Stupidity, Shadow Form, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Evocation, and Superior Invisibility. Mindsight allows you to see a creature's Int score, so Ray of Stupidity is perfect for taking down hostile animals and high-hp bruisers with low Int.

If you need Heighten Spell for the Versatile Spellcaster trick, you may as well also take Shadowcraft Mage. There are quite a few handbooks for that already so I won't go into detail here. If you don't want to go that route and still take Heighten Spell, it's useful for reserve feats, but there aren't many decent reserve feats for a Beguiler unless you have a bloodline feat or some of the Raiment of the Four set pieces in MIC.

Starting out use a shortbow and cast Color Spray when you can hit multiple opponents at once. Try to use your spells sparingly in combat as they're more of a toolbox for solving noncombat issues than anything. If you end up fighting an enemy spellcaster, ready an action to cast Silence if they start casting a spell with a verbal component. Center that on a point in space with them in the area of effect and it automatically prevents them from completing the spell so they'll lost it, but it will still be spent as though cast. The nonlethal damage spells are fairly worthless, but you get some decent save-or-lose spells as well as Haste.

Beguiler is actually an amazing choice for Vow of Peace and Vow of Nonviolence, since none of your spells deal damage. If you have a party member who has the local authority to give enemies a 'fair trial' and sentence them to death on the spot it completely gets around the drawbacks those vows impose on the rest of the party.

[Edea]

Another alternative is Earth Dreamer, as Earth Spell allows for additional heightened silent image shenanigans anyway and the PrC is otherwise quite solid.

[Wildstag]

Beguiler is a really easy way to enter the Swiftblade prc without multiclassing, fwiw. You'd have to wait until at least level 7 before entering it, but it's low-mid tier levels. Downside is that it would permanently lock you out of 9th level spells if you go the level 9 route.

[el minster]

Will look into Versatile Spellcaster and a Mindbender dip but the capstone for beguiler looks really good so I am hesitant to multiclass, am I missing something?

Oh, also no dragon or campaign specific stuff.

[Gnaeus]

Will look into Versatile Spellcaster and a Mindbender dip but the capstone for beguiler looks really good so I am hesitant to multiclass, am I missing something?

Oh, also no dragon or campaign specific stuff.

As mentioned above your advanced learning progresses better if you dip something that doesn’t lose a CL.

But beguiler is generally strong. Duskblade and glaivelock won’t show you up. If you think you will play to 20 and you want the capstone that works.

But remember that beguiler optimization is all about adding to the spell list. There are 3 ways. PRCs, feats, and items. Make sure you can UMD a runestaff (some debate). If you don’t want to PRC, arcane disciple becomes an option (some debate). Work with the glaivelock for items to UMD.

[Telonius]

Will look into Versatile Spellcaster and a Mindbender dip but the capstone for beguiler looks really good so I am hesitant to multiclass, am I missing something?

Oh, also no dragon or campaign specific stuff.

Well, the main issue with the capstone is that it's a capstone. Meaning, you'll only get to use it for one level out of 20 if you're in a standard campaign. It is really good, but is it good enough to lock you out of a better spell for most of your casting career?

If you're going into Epic, and will be getting more than one level of use out of it, there's no reason you can't take that 20th Beguiler when you get enough XP to be level 21. You'd still get the class feature. If you are going into Epic levels, having that option available will be really, really nice, as quite a lot of Epic foes have SR.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Will look into Versatile Spellcaster and a Mindbender dip but the capstone for beguiler looks really good so I am hesitant to multiclass, am I missing something?

Oh, also no dragon or campaign specific stuff.

You're starting out at a low level, don't worry so much about what you could get at 20th if you get that far. Sacrificing having way better advanced learning selections to wait 14 levels for a capstone isn't really worth it. Plus as others have said, if you do reach 20th you'll probably also hit 21 and higher, so you can still gain that at level 21.

Beguiler gets Advanced Learning at levels 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19, but access to new spell levels at even-numbered class levels. Taking a one-level dip in a prestige class that advances spellcasting will delay each subsequent Advanced learning to the next even-numbered character level. So your Beguiler 7 Advanced Learning will be accompanied by Beguiler 8 spellcasting, and access to pick from 4th level spells (or 5th with the other trick). So delaying your Beguiler class features by one level without delaying your spellcasting makes them line up for gaining higher level spell choices.

[Troacctid]

But remember that beguiler optimization is all about adding to the spell list. There are 3 ways. PRCs, feats, and items. Make sure you can UMD a runestaff (some debate). If you don’t want to PRC, arcane disciple becomes an option (some debate). Work with the glaivelock for items to UMD.
That's an overstatement, I think. There are plenty of other vectors for optimizing beguilers: social skills, save DCs, scouting, stealth, UMD, minionmancy, buffing, and defense, for example. If you're the party face, you could be taking Silver Tongue, Celestial Scion (Darmen), Bind Vestige, Practiced Binder, Undead Empathy, and Spawn of the Dark Prince, all of which are as good as or better than most bloodlines.

[NigelWalmsley]

Will look into Versatile Spellcaster and a Mindbender dip but the capstone for beguiler looks really good so I am hesitant to multiclass, am I missing something?

Aside from the fact that it only shows up at 20th level, it's not really that impressive. You already have solid options for SR:No offenses (e.g. the Silent Image line of spells, any minions you've picked up), and SR tends to lose out to CL boosting at high levels. If it broke immunities, that'd be worth talking about, but as-written it's not worth losing the benefits of Mindbender, Rainbow Servant, Shadowcraft Mage, or any number of other PrCs you might want to take as a Beguiler.


There are plenty of other vectors for optimizing beguilers: social skills, save DCs, scouting, stealth, UMD, minionmancy, buffing, and defense, for example.

It's not an either-or. For example, one of the best uses for UMD is activating items that let you expand your spell list (e.g. Runestaves, Knowstones). And in other cases, if you do want to specialize in one of those areas, it'd mean you'd be better off as something other than a Beguiler. For example, a dedicated Diplomancer wants to run around getting every stacking bonus to Diplomacy she can, which Beguiler is not actually particularly useful for. It's true that you can optimize Beguilers in other ways, but expanding their list is where they have the strongest comparative advantage because they can take advantage of things most other classes can't. A Rogue can be basically as good at UMD as a Beguiler, but even a Wizard doesn't get the same advantage from Rainbow Servant.

[Edea]

That IS something I should've asked in the first place, though: el minster, are you allowed to use Races of Stone or Complete Mage? Is there a set of books you have for us to pull options from? You've already said no Dragon or setting-specific stuff, but that doesn't rule out the Shadowcraft Mage...

[Troacctid]

It's not an either-or. For example, one of the best uses for UMD is activating items that let you expand your spell list (e.g. Runestaves, Knowstones). And in other cases, if you do want to specialize in one of those areas, it'd mean you'd be better off as something other than a Beguiler. For example, a dedicated Diplomancer wants to run around getting every stacking bonus to Diplomacy she can, which Beguiler is not actually particularly useful for. It's true that you can optimize Beguilers in other ways, but expanding their list is where they have the strongest comparative advantage because they can take advantage of things most other classes can't. A Rogue can be basically as good at UMD as a Beguiler, but even a Wizard doesn't get the same advantage from Rainbow Servant.
Runestaves, knowstones, and bloodline feats all work better for sorcerers than they do for beguilers. Likewise sand shaper, exalted arcanist, mage of the arcane order, fiend-blooded, Mother Cyst, Cerebrosis, Fey Legacy, basically almost every list expansion option except for rainbow servant and Arcane Disciple, neither one of which, by the way, synergizes particularly well with what the beguiler is doing. I'm not saying they aren't fine options, but they're also not beguiler-specific, like, even a little.

[NigelWalmsley]

Except those things mostly aren't better for Sorcerers. Take the Runestaff. It's true that it's easier for a Sorcerer to activate, but UMD is right there on the Beguiler's spell list. And the effect, once activated, is that it gives you a small number of selected spells known. That's better for the Beguiler (who knows lots of spells but not necessarily the best ones) than it is for the Sorcerer (who knows only a few spells, but can pick whichever ones he wants). About the only thing that's really better for the Sorcerer is Sand Shaper, but that's a trap because it costs you casting.

[Troacctid]

Beguiler actually does know most of the best spells, though, and sorcerer needs the known spells a lot more.

[nedz]

I'm playing a Beguiler at the moment, or will be when the lock-down ends.

I went with several iterations of Arcane Disciple and I dipped Divine Oracle. This seems to be a viable option - how you build your beguiler really depends on the character concept you are going for. Yes I am trying to widen the threats of the beguiler beyond the usual Enchantment/Illusion/Divination/Utility focus - I'm not sure why anyone would think that this is a bad idea ?

[tiercel]

1) Race: if you’re not locked into the PHB gnome, then you should at least have a look at Whisper Gnome (Races of Stone), especially if/since you are going to be the party scout — bonuses to stealth, perception, speed, Dex, and darkvision make this a strong choice (like, is-this-really-LA-0-strong, choice) for a scouting skillmonkey.

Alternatively, if Whisper Gnome is off the table / too cheesy for your table, there’s always the Forest Gnome (MM), which is a mild but pretty nearly straight upgrade to the PHB gnome.

2) Obtain Familiar: familiars are better when you have lots of skills, and you are the party skillmonkey. Familiars get to use all your skill ranks, which notably includes UMD — hello extra actions! You probably don’t want your familiar attracting enemy attention in combat, but buffs and emergency healing on actions you don’t have to spend yourself (especially from low-level wands) is tasty. Raven is an obvious choice (for social skills and likely UMD, though if the DM calls shenanigans on ravens wielding wands, you’ll have to decide whether it’s worth a second feat to get an Improved Familiar instead).

3) Dipping Mindbender. Yes, it’s strong, but are you okay in your game playing a non-Good character? Getting a 4th level spell instead of a 3rd level one from Advanced Learning is good in principle — if you know which one you want. (If you wind up wanting or tempted by a 3rd level addition, then this is less useful.). Telepathy is strong all by itself if you use social skills at all or charm spells (language is no longer a problem), much less scouting ahead a bit (silent reporting back to your party). If your DM allows Mindsight feat (Lords of Madness)... whew.

4) Speaking of Lords of Madness, if you’re going to be stealthy, the Darkstalker feat goes a long way to forcing your foes to make straight up Spot/Listen checks to find you.

5) UMD. Seriously, as obvious as this is, UMD Is Your Friend. Much is made of how “beguiler only gets certain kinds of spells” but you can have nice backup blasting, BFC, healing, etc. options with nothing but enough UMD chicanery.

6) Spell Focus et al feats are good for you given your focus on illusions and enchantments, but you also want to make sure you have breadth as well as depth. If you pour everything into making your spell DCs astronomical, your DM may get exasperated and/or start a Will-save arms race.

7) There is at least one handbook. (http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php?topic=727.0)

[Gnaeus]

Beguiler actually does know most of the best spells, though, and sorcerer needs the known spells a lot more.

That’s true and not true.

Agree: what beguiler gets is better than what sorcerers get at many levels

Disagree: beguiler doesn’t know “the best spells”. Polymorph or Planar Binding both exceed any spell the binder gets at those levels, just not all of them

There are a few higher levels where the beguiler spells aren’t fantastic. By the time you are looking at list going “that’s ok I guess” you should have your list expansion methods in place.

The people who think beguiler is shut down by mind immune or illusion immune haven’t read beguiler. Still, as good as haste and slow are, a well built sorcerer has a range of SoD targeting all saves, damage spells, travel & utility spells, crowd control, buffs, debuffs etc all through their career. Beguiler don’t innately get that, especially against true sight or immunity to mind affecting.

Sorcerer does need known spells more. But it is easier to expand spells on list and spells known than than just spells known. Arcane disciple is good for fixed list casters, generally not worth it for sorcerers (insert footnote about how expanding spell lists works, ask your DM if disciple is right for you).

And in response to earlier comment, as Nigel correctly pointed out, most of those things are either useful mostly for more spells (like UMD) or are easiest to fix with more spells (like scouting, minionmancy, skills, buffing and defense).

Travel domain, for example, gives good stuff for beguiler at 8/9 levels. Longstrider increases speed while stealthed or when running back to party. Locate object is a scouting spell. Fly helps you scout, also a buff or defense. DDoor is a good emergency tool for a scout. Teleport obviously. Find the path is nice for a scout. Greater teleport. And astral projection just a useful 9 you didn’t have. Not the best option in every group (but a very strong option in OPs group where teleport looks short supply). But a strong, utility expanding option nevertheless that is granted by a lot of common gods.

[NigelWalmsley]

The people who think beguiler is shut down by mind immune or illusion immune haven’t read beguiler.

I know it's kind of peripheral to your point, but it's worth pointing out that even to the degree that this is true, it's an "and" not an "or". If someone's immune to just one, you can hit them with the other (and a lot of the thing things that are immune to mind-effecting are so because they're mindless, making illusions super-effective).

[Gnaeus]

I know it's kind of peripheral to your point, but it's worth pointing out that even to the degree that this is true, it's an "and" not an "or". If someone's immune to just one, you can hit them with the other (and a lot of the thing things that are immune to mind-effecting are so because they're mindless, making illusions super-effective).

I mostly agree, although there is some nuance there. At high level you will get a lot of things with true seeing and mind blank, or true seeing and high SR. And while I personally agree about mindless, ive seen more than a few zombies or spiders or golems run up to a wall and stick their hand (mandible?) through it. WhIch is kinda bogus but sometimes your choices are to let it slide or leave game.

Anyway, to the extent that beguilers have a weakness, that’s probably it. And more spells that don’t hit those defenses is the easy fix.

[Edea]

That might be another reason the beguiler's spell list focus sometimes elicits concerns: DM bias not allowing for the proper adjudication of illusion effects. If your DM's combative it can block out large portions of a beguiler's list (but then again, why are you letting someone like that DM for you lol)...

[Troacctid]

I mostly agree, although there is some nuance there. At high level you will get a lot of things with true seeing and mind blank, or true seeing and high SR. And while I personally agree about mindless, ive seen more than a few zombies or spiders or golems run up to a wall and stick their hand (mandible?) through it. WhIch is kinda bogus but sometimes your choices are to let it slide or leave game.

Anyway, to the extent that beguilers have a weakness, that’s probably it. And more spells that don’t hit those defenses is the easy fix.
It makes sense. If you put up a real, conjured wall in front of them and they couldn't path around it, I'd expect them to do the same thing. Maybe recoil if it's something that hurts them, like a wall of fire. Don't tell me you've never seen zombies in a movie try to bust through doors and windows. Like, your back is against the door trying to hold it shut, and a zombie's hand breaks through it right next to your head to try and grab you? That's iconic.


I'm playing a Beguiler at the moment, or will be when the lock-down ends.

I went with several iterations of Arcane Disciple and I dipped Divine Oracle. This seems to be a viable option - how you build your beguiler really depends on the character concept you are going for. Yes I am trying to widen the threats of the beguiler beyond the usual Enchantment/Illusion/Divination/Utility focus - I'm not sure why anyone would think that this is a bad idea ?
Like I said, it's totally fine. It's just not the only thing a beguiler should be working about, or even the most important thing.

[el minster]

That IS something I should've asked in the first place, though: el minster, are you allowed to use Races of Stone or Complete Mage? Is there a set of books you have for us to pull options from? You've already said no Dragon or setting-specific stuff, but that doesn't rule out the Shadowcraft Mage...

both are kosher but I want to go straight beguiler my first time

thinking of taking arcane disciple several times. Can I do that?

[Troacctid]

both are kosher but I want to go straight beguiler my first time

thinking of taking arcane disciple several times. Can I do that?
There's theoretically no limit on the number of times you can take it, but you are restricted to domains from a single deity, which should place a de facto maximum of "All the domains they offer."

[el minster]

So whisper gnome 32 point buy
str 8
con 12
dex 14
cha 10
int 16
wis 16

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So whisper gnome 32 point buy
str 8
con 12
dex 14
cha 10
int 16
wis 16

Don't start with Wis so high, bump Dex higher. By the time you'll be getting higher level spells you'll be able to afford an enhancement bonus to Wis, and with MIC p234 it doesn't even take a separate item slot to do that.

With 32 point buy on a whisper gnome you can go Str 8-2, Dex 14+2, Con 14+2, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 8-2.

[noce]

Maybe I'm a bit late in the discussion, but a build I played and liked is Beguiler 6 / Shadow Adept 1 / Beguiler till 20.

It requires a feat you want anyway, and a class level, granting you:

delayed access to advanced learning
+1 DC with both enchantment and illusion
+5 spell penetration against anyone with spells or spell like abilities, +1 against everyone else
+5 DC to dispel your spells
resistance against divinations attempted against your spells


Theme fits very well with Beguiler and it feels less cheesy than Telepathy + Mindsight.

[Edea]

Oh, if you're going straight Beguiler 20 then yeah, the main optimization's going to come from adding to their list. You'll also want Rapid Metamagic (Complete Mage, p.46) for putting Silence, Still, and Heighten on your spells without bloating your casting times.

Any info on the divine caster? Also agreed with Biffoniacus_Furiou, don't blow your build points on Wisdom. The Arcane Disciple spells are only usable 1/day each, and if you're wanting to have that many Disciple options you're probably better off just playing a cleric; I wouldn't keep taking it over and over again.

Arcane Disciple (Healing) is a good choice for a single one, however, because since all of those healing spells are now on the beguiler's list, they no longer have to UMD on the spell trigger/completion items for them (so your divine caster can get you some scrolls and wands and be like 'hey, in an emergency...').

[el minster]

So maybe 32 point buy
str 10 -2
dex 14 +2
con 12 +2
int 16
wis 14
cha 12 -2

[NigelWalmsley]

That might be another reason the beguiler's spell list focus sometimes elicits concerns: DM bias not allowing for the proper adjudication of illusion effects. If your DM's combative it can block out large portions of a beguiler's list (but then again, why are you letting someone like that DM for you lol)...

That's the general weakness of Enchantment and Illusion, really. They are both, by RAW, incredibly powerful, but subject to the possibility of sweeping nerfs based on DM rulings. Which is why expanding your list is so valuable to a Beguiler. When your basic kit is already at the point where "DM says no" is your biggest problem, going deeper on that is not an efficient use of your resources.


Don't tell me you've never seen zombies in a movie try to bust through doors and windows.

D&D zombies aren't movie zombies. Most movie zombies are closer to Ghouls. D&D zombies, by RAW, have a specific program and follow exactly that program. While there certainly are some programs that Silent Image doesn't beat (e.g. patrolling areas specified in feet rather than "this room") it does beat most orders most zombies get.

[Edea]

Also, I read somewhere that Extra Spell was errata'd to specifically exclude anything not already on your class's spell list, so depending if the DM goes with that I'm not sure it'll be any help, here.

[el minster]

I'm not doing extra spell I'm doing domains. On the subject though what should I get for advaced learning?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm not doing extra spell I'm doing domains. On the subject though what should I get for advaced learning?

It depends on what tricks you use. With an early Versatile Spellcaster with the right ruling, or that with Heighten or something else, the first Advanced Learning should always be Ray of Stupidity in Spell Compendium. That deals 1d4+1 Int damage, a creature dropped to Int 0 is knocked unconscious, so any animal you hit is automatically disabled by it, and a few shots can easily take down a high-hp bruiser. Even against a wizard it nerfs his DCs and bonus spells and even his ability to cast higher level spells due to ability score requirements.

If you dip a single level of Mindbender or Shadow Adept or anything else that grants +1 level of spellcasting before your second Advanced Learning, they can each be one level higher. Combined with the above you can pick spells of up to 5th, 7th, 9th, and 9th level with subsequent Advanced Learnings. The 7th level spell should be Greater Shadow Conjuration, and one of the 9ths should be Greater Shadow Evocation, those should go without saying. For the other 9th I'd get Superior Invisibility, but that's not really necessary if you take Darkstalker. The 5th level spell can be Shadow Form (which may be a bit redundant with Swift Ethereanless), or Persistent Image, or Dream, or Song of Discord, etc., whatever you think you'll find the most useful.

[Edea]

3rd - distract assailant (Complete Adventurer)
7th - ray of stupidity (Spell Compendium)
11th - shadow evocation (SRD)
15th - greater shadow conjuration (SRD)
19th - programmed amnesia (Spell Compendium)

Since you're not dipping or PrC-ing your spell level progression for Advanced Learning's delayed.

[el minster]

it's not delayed itjust isn't advanced