The Two-birds sling is broken as hell

[ftafp]

the theros book introduced a rare +1 sling called the two birds sling and its absolutely wretched. if you hit with an attack with it, you can make another attack. there's no once per turn limit. you keep hitting untill you miss

[Mikal]

the theros book introduced a rare +1 sling called the two birds sling and its absolutely wretched. if you hit with an attack with it, you can make another attack. there's no once per turn limit. you keep hitting untill you miss

Wrong on several counts. It says when you make a ranged attack with the sling you may make a second attack if the first one hits. It also says you can only attack someone else within 10 ft of the original target.

That means that the second roll does not come from the sling, so you don’t get to make an additional attack if the second attack hits.

It’s a useful ability because it can potentially double your attacks if enemies are close enough together. It doesn’t allow you to create an infinite feedback loop.

[Sigreid]

That could be incredible in the hands of a fighter with the archery fighting style.

[ftafp]

Wrong on several counts. It says when you make a ranged attack with the sling you may make a second attack if the first one hits. It also says you can only attack someone else within 10 ft of the original target.

That means that the second roll does not come from the sling, so you don’t get to make an additional attack if the second attack hits.

It’s a useful ability because it can potentially double your attacks if enemies are close enough together. It doesn’t allow you to create an infinite feedback loop.

i know about the 10 foot limit, and was counting it in my analysis (you can get around it by targeting objects between you and your opponent) but the wording is ambiguous. the second attack still arguably comes from the sling, but even if it doesn't count, you can still effectively double your number of attacks. since successive attacks from the sling can riccochet

[Misterwhisper]

That is because The Theros book had no oversight by development teams.

They only include it on DND beyond for the money.

[Mikal]

i know about the 10 foot limit, and was counting it in my analysis (you can get around it by targeting objects between you and your opponent) but the wording is ambiguous. the second attack still arguably comes from the sling, but even if it doesn't count, you can still effectively double your number of attacks. since successive attacks from the sling can riccochet

No. The first shot specifically says from the sling. The second attack is not a shot from the sling. It’s a ricochet. If it allowed more than one extra attack it would say so explicitly.

It’s only ambiguous if you want to make it ambiguous.

This is literally a non issue.


That is because The Theros book had no oversight by development teams.

They only include it on DND beyond for the money.

1) all dnd books are there for money. So what?

2) so Jeremy Crawford is no longer a designer in dnd? Chris Perkins is no longer a designer? James Wyatt?

If you’re going to start throwing around bull crap, you should at least make it something that takes longer then 10 seconds to disprove

[AttilatheYeon]

You have a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with this weapon.

When you make a ranged attack with this sling and hit a target, you can cause the ammunition to ricochet toward a second target within 10 feet of the first, and then make a ranged attack against the second target.

It's good, but not OP. The operative word is second target. It doubles attacks. Considering it's a +1 sling, i wouldn't worry too much about it.

[Misterwhisper]

You have a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with this weapon.

When you make a ranged attack with this sling and hit a target, you can cause the ammunition to ricochet toward a second target within 10 feet of the first, and then make a ranged attack against the second target.

It's good, but not OP. The operative word is second target. It doubles attacks. Considering it's a +1 sling, i wouldn't worry too much about it.

You say that until you see a level 11 fighter 3 gloomstalker make
16 attacks on round 1, using archery to boost to hit and doing about 1d4 + 6 ish a hit.

[Yunru]

You say that until you see a level 11 fighter 3 gloomstalker make
16 attacks on round 1, using archery to boost to hit and doing about 1d4 + 6 ish a hit.

Really? Gloom stalker? I believe you mean Hunter :P

Hells, pair this with the Hunter's Volley XD

[1WngdAngel]

You say that until you see a level 11 fighter 3 gloomstalker make
16 attacks on round 1, using archery to boost to hit and doing about 1d4 + 6 ish a hit.

You don't get to keep laying on attacks with this weapon. I'm really unsure why this is confusing. IF you successfully hit on the attack, you get to make a second and then that's it. You don't make a third attack if the second hits, this isn't a compounding thing here.

[Misterwhisper]

You don't get to keep laying on attacks with this weapon. I'm really unsure why this is confusing. IF you successfully hit on the attack, you get to make a second and then that's it. You don't make a third attack if the second hits, this isn't a compounding thing here.

I wasn’t using it.

Fighter 3 attacks
Gloom stalker extra 1
Action surge to do it again
Every attack bounced once

16 attacks

[Yunru]

You don't get to keep laying on attacks with this weapon. I'm really unsure why this is confusing. IF you successfully hit on the attack, you get to make a second and then that's it. You don't make a third attack if the second hits, this isn't a compounding thing here.

Umm... They're not.
Their build makes 4 attacks per attack action on the first turn. If each of them ricochet, that's 8 attacks per action. Action Surge.

[Chronos]

It's only 16 attacks if the 8 "normal" ones all hit, and if you're going 8 for 8 on your normal attacks, you're probably looking at trash monsters that don't justify expending resources like Action Surge.

On the other hand, with Volley, yeah, that could be broken, if you have one tough enemy surrounded by a bunch of weak ones, and you riccochet from all of the weak ones onto the tough one: Now you're getting an attack in on each of the weak enemies, AND getting in a bunch of attacks on the strong one.

[Hytheter]

Hells, pair this with the Hunter's Volley XD

That's not an attack, that's a goddamn avalanche. Or "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies" as a player action, if you prefer.

[Misterwhisper]

That's not an attack, that's a goddamn avalanche. Or "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies" as a player action, if you prefer.

Kind of dependant on how many people are in that circle but yeah, it could give a lot of people a very bad day.

Also, on DMsGuild, there is a range subclass called Slinger that is focused on using a sling...

[Yakk]

If there are 160 HP of "trash" monsters tightly packed as only part of an encounter... yes, action surge sounds like a plausibly good plan.

Of course, that is also the damage output of a 6 target fireball. And at level 11 a 3rd level spell slot is cheaper than action surge.

[Sigreid]

If there are 160 HP of "trash" monsters tightly packed as only part of an encounter... yes, action surge sounds like a plausibly good plan.

Of course, that is also the damage output of a 6 target fireball. And at level 11 a 3rd level spell slot is cheaper than action surge.

They don't really have to be tightly packed as long as everyone you target in range of the sling has someone within 10 feet of them. You're primary targets can be plenty spread out.

[LordCdrMilitant]

If there are 160 HP of "trash" monsters tightly packed as only part of an encounter... yes, action surge sounds like a plausibly good plan.

Of course, that is also the damage output of a 6 target fireball. And at level 11 a 3rd level spell slot is cheaper than action surge.

It's a ranged weapon, so why not Sharpshooter?

Now it's (10+5+1d4+1)*<Attacks> = 296 mean damage.

Also, it doesn't take 16 tightly formed low-health enemies, it just takes 2 within 10 feet. All 8 lead attacks target one for 148 damage, and then the 8 ricochets all hit the second one for 148. That's like double a twinned disintegrate.

[iTreeby]

Afb but, does this sling work with magic stone?

[Hytheter]

Afb but, does this sling work with magic stone?

I can't see any reason it wouldn't.

[DarknessEternal]

Martials are too weak! Martials are too strong!

Get over yourselves GitP forum.

[Misterwhisper]

Martials are too weak! Martials are too strong!

Get over yourselves GitP forum.

I think it is more of the fact that books not made in house at WOTC have no concept of balance.

[MaxWilson]

I think it is more of the fact that books not made in house at WOTC have no concept of balance.

You're giving the in-house books too much credit. Remember Healing Spirit and Simulacrum?

[Misterwhisper]

You're giving the in-house books too much credit. Remember Healing Spirit and Simulacrum?

Healing spirit would not have been so blown out of proportion if clerics had gotten it too.

Here is your new super healing spell, but it is mostly great between fights.

Simulacrum is just a hold over from old editions.

They don’t mind if full casters are broken.

[JNAProductions]

Martials are too weak! Martials are too strong!

Get over yourselves GitP forum.

We're not a monolith. Different people will have different opinions.

[HappyDaze]

We're not a monolith. Different people will have different opinions.

I can only agree.

[AdAstra]

It's a ranged weapon, so why not Sharpshooter?

Now it's (10+5+1d4+1)*<Attacks> = 296 mean damage.

Also, it doesn't take 16 tightly formed low-health enemies, it just takes 2 within 10 feet. All 8 lead attacks target one for 148 damage, and then the 8 ricochets all hit the second one for 148. That's like double a twinned disintegrate.

Sure, but you give up something like 27.5 damage per round on the initial target versus a Crossbow Expert/Sharpshooter build (assuming a +1 hand crossbow for some equivalency. Realistically if you matched rarity it should probably be a +2). So you're giving up some of your single-target damage to be better at striking multiple targets. At levels before 20 you're giving up even more damage proportionally, since the bonus action attack matters more. Disintegrate isn't a particularly great spell and casters aren't really supposed to be good at single-target damage.

Also, with Sharpshooter, DPR really should take into account miss chance (obviously this doesn't matter when comparing different SS builds, but it does matter when comparing to other forms of damage). Assuming a +9 to hit when using the -5/+10 (aka 20 Dex, Archery Style, and the +1 weapon), you can assume a 65% chance to hit against something with AC 17. So a Level 20 Action Surging Two-Birds slinger will deal 96.2 DPR against two targets with AC 17, 129.87 DPR if you have advantage. So that's like, two Umber Hulks or Githyanki Knights (both have 18 AC and a little over 90 HP). Could probably kill two Frost Giants (AC 15, 138 HP) if you had advantage. While it's certainly good, I wouldn't consider it game-wrecking.

[Knaight]

You say that until you see a level 11 fighter 3 gloomstalker make
16 attacks on round 1, using archery to boost to hit and doing about 1d4 + 6 ish a hit.
Being more realistic with the accuracy you might realistically hit 5 of your 8 initial attacks, and then 3 of those 5, for 8 hits. That's 8d4+48, for an average of 68 damage split between 2 targets minimum. If there's only one target available (or only one target worth noting because the rest are chaff that are about to be fireballed into oblivion anyways, or just more than 10 feet away) that drops to 5d4+30, for a whopping 42.5 damage.

Now compare a +2 longbow, which is roughly equivalent magic wise. I'll assume you hit the same 5 attacks (though a +1 actually has a decent chance of making a difference with 8), and that you're striking for d8+7 each time. That's 5d8+35, for 57.5 damage, which you actually can use on just one target. Roughly 10 damage less in the two nearby meaningful targets case (and remember, the accuracy difference shrinks this), roughly 15 more in the one target case.

That fundamentally doesn't look broken. There are specific situations where it'll really shine (you get the drop on a tough creature and its 8 nearby low AC low HP minions), there are situations where it's pretty bad (spread out targets, one enemy, you have disadvantage), it seems pretty balanced.

The hypothetical infinite cascading sling is a lot stronger, though even there it's maybe a 3x attack for substantially less than 3x damage situation (hitting on 7s or 8s regularly).

[Chronos]

It's still broken with Volley, though. Consider a fight of one boss with some minions, say, eight of them. With a normal weapon, an 11th level ranger would have a choice of making two or maybe three (if he has some sort of bonus action attack) on the boss, or one each on the boss and each of the minions. Both are good options, so it's a meaningful choice. With this thing, though, the ranger can make one attack each on the minions, and nine attacks on the boss. You need a 20th-level fighter with Action Surge and a bonus action to match that number of attacks on the boss, and you're still also damaging everything else, too.

What's worse, it changes all of those minions from being a help to the boss (even if only a minor one) to a hindrance: The boss would last a lot longer if he didn't have all those minions around him. An ability like Volley that reduces the value of minions is fine. But an ability that reduces their value to negatives is whacked.

[AdAstra]

It's still broken with Volley, though. Consider a fight of one boss with some minions, say, eight of them. With a normal weapon, an 11th level ranger would have a choice of making two or maybe three (if he has some sort of bonus action attack) on the boss, or one each on the boss and each of the minions. Both are good options, so it's a meaningful choice. With this thing, though, the ranger can make one attack each on the minions, and nine attacks on the boss. You need a 20th-level fighter with Action Surge and a bonus action to match that number of attacks on the boss, and you're still also damaging everything else, too.

What's worse, it changes all of those minions from being a help to the boss (even if only a minor one) to a hindrance: The boss would last a lot longer if he didn't have all those minions around him. An ability like Volley that reduces the value of minions is fine. But an ability that reduces their value to negatives is whacked.

Like, aside from the fact that that sounds like an awesome thing that I would totally want to see happen, how often do you see a toughie boss with eight weak minions within 10 feet of them? I doubt most tactically-minded DMs would do something like that frequently, because it makes all of those enemies incredibly vulnerable to things like Fireball and Hypnotic Pattern.

Also, it's a maximum of nine attacks on the boss. If you miss any attacks on the minions, you can't make the rebound attack on the boss. Each "attack" on the boss is similar to an attack at disadvantage, since you need to hit both the minion and the boss in sequence.

[Willie the Duck]

So what we have here is a magic item which facilitates up to 296 as an opener attack... if you set up a 14th level build with a specific feat (that is high power in the first place) to support it, they use their action surge (again, a powerful ability in its own right), and everything goes exactly right (sharpshooter paired with an ability that allows extra attacks specifically if the first attack hits is something of a strategy at odds with itself)... that, while nice in many situations, is only devastating in a pretty scripted contrived scenario. I can't argue that it isn't good, but it's not "broken as hell," "absolutely wretched," nor "a goddamn avalanche." It's bad design, it certainly favors the already-ascendant martial build of Sharpshooting Ranged weapon-focused character. However, it's moving that build from "a highly competitive build, for a high-level martial, and with a killer first round" to "a highly competitive build, for a high-level martial, and with a killer first round that can be absolutely devastating in a number of scenarios."

None of this is to say that I think its inclusion was a good idea, as is, and I do think it being outside of the main product line probably did have something to do with it. Ravnica also had some questionable choices, such as giving extra benefits to spellcasters only.

[Chronos]

Oh, yeah, this thing definitely isn't as broken as, say, Ravnica's illusionist bracers.

[Mikal]

I think it is more of the fact that books not made in house at WOTC have no concept of balance.

Except that this book was made in house at WotC. And honestly it’s not broken. Honestly this is something I’d want to see as a rare weapon. It isn’t just “add damage dice”, it lets you have a (single person attack) ricochet attack. That’s neat, and not over powering.

[Misterwhisper]

Except that this book was made in house at WotC. And honestly it’s not broken. Honestly this is something I’d want to see as a rare weapon. It isn’t just “add damage dice”, it lets you have a (single person attack) ricochet attack. That’s neat, and not over powering.

It was not made in house, it just went through approval and a very quick read over.

Doubling the number of attacks someone can make in a round if someone else is in 10 feet is not minor.

PAM and CBE are considered two of the best feats in the game because they give one extra attack a round for the price of a bonus action.

This thing give every ranged attack you make with it an extra attack as long as there is someone in range for the cost of... nothing. Not even a bonus action.

Fighter with 3 attacks just became a possible 6.
Hasted, deepstalker 3, fighter 11 can action surge to make 10 attacks on round 1.
With this one simple weapon it becomes a possible 20 attacks if there are 2 people within 10 feet.

If it was a bonus action extra attack with a ricochet, yeah it would be no big deal.

[stoutstien]

Afb but, does this sling work with magic stone?

yes but you make a spell attack vs a normal weapon attack so whole new list of things that effect it.

all and all if the worse thing is a hunter with volley getting some extra damage its fine. still not as useful as 90% of the other magic items in the game and its about time we got a good sling option.

[Knaight]

It's still broken with Volley, though. Consider a fight of one boss with some minions, say, eight of them. With a normal weapon, an 11th level ranger would have a choice of making two or maybe three (if he has some sort of bonus action attack) on the boss, or one each on the boss and each of the minions. Both are good options, so it's a meaningful choice. With this thing, though, the ranger can make one attack each on the minions, and nine attacks on the boss. You need a 20th-level fighter with Action Surge and a bonus action to match that number of attacks on the boss, and you're still also damaging everything else, too.

It's part of a broken combo, sure - but when there's a whole bunch of parts and one of them is a ridiculously specific scenario design (a boss with 8 minions all within 10 feet of them) that really doesn't seem like much of an issue, especially in any context where magic items are expected to be found and not bought (and thus hard to combo with specific class abilities).

This is also not remotely the only case where assets can be turned against you. See: strong allies with weak Wisdom saves.

[MaxWilson]

It's part of a broken combo, sure - but when there's a whole bunch of parts and one of them is a ridiculously specific scenario design (a boss with 8 minions all within 10 feet of them) that really doesn't seem like much of an issue, especially in any context where magic items are expected to be found and not bought (and thus hard to combo with specific class abilities).

This is also not remotely the only case where assets can be turned against you. See: strong allies with weak Wisdom saves.

Note: just because the scenario is rare organically doesn't mean players can't make this specific scenario happen more often, e.g. with a cage full of 2cp chickens (released simultaneously) and Animal Messenger.

YMMV whether Volley of Chickens is awful or awesome.

[Willie the Duck]

Note: just because the scenario is rare organically doesn't mean players can't make this specific scenario happen more often, e.g. with a cage full of 2cp chickens (released simultaneously) and Animal Messenger.

YMMV whether Volley of Chickens is awful or awesome.

So a~20 years later we're back to the bag of rats scenario. Lovely.

[Misterwhisper]

Who cares about the volley option?

Just look at it from a normal weapon standpoint.

It is essentially, hit with an attack in your attack action, get extra free attack within 10 ft.

One bonus action attack is a huge difference in a person’s offense, this can give you many more, and is not even a bonus action.

You don’t have to target an army, just two people within 10 ft of each other is plenty.

[Willie the Duck]

Who cares about the volley option?
Just look at it from a normal weapon standpoint.
It is essentially, hit with an attack in your attack action, get extra free attack within 10 ft.
One bonus action attack is a huge difference in a person’s offense, this can give you many more, and is not even a bonus action.
You don’t have to target an army, just two people within 10 ft of each other is plenty.

Looking at your previous posts on the subject, I am having trouble establishing a consistent argument, other than you think the item is overpowered. In one case, it is simply the number of attacks (even at 1d4+6, which others have pointed out isn't half of the abuse potential, since it can be paired with Sharpshooter); in the next it is about how many people you have in a circle, so apparently it is about volley-style effects; and then in another actual power level isn't relevant, since it is okay for casters (I guess a reasonable position, if your primary concern is within-martial-options-balance, which I can understand but for 5e the horse has left the barn).

For reference:

You say that until you see a level 11 fighter 3 gloomstalker make
16 attacks on round 1, using archery to boost to hit and doing about 1d4 + 6 ish a hit.

Kind of dependant on how many people are in that circle but yeah, it could give a lot of people a very bad day.
Also, on DMsGuild, there is a range subclass called Slinger that is focused on using a sling...

Healing spirit would not have been so blown out of proportion if clerics had gotten it too.
Here is your new super healing spell, but it is mostly great between fights.
Simulacrum is just a hold over from old editions.
They don’t mind if full casters are broken.

[micahaphone]

Well, let's compare it to other Rare tier magic items.

This is the same tier where you might get a Sun Blade, a +2 finesse longsword with extra anti-undead and light source riders. Or a Robe of Eyes, a Ring of Spell Storing, a Helm of Teleportation, an Amulet of Health.

I'm completely okay with someone getting a +1 sling (a d4 weapon with short range) with a conditional extra attack at the same time as other people are getting +2 weapons and really neat wands or cloaks.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Wrong on several counts. It says when you make a ranged attack with the sling you may make a second attack if the first one hits. It also says you can only attack someone else within 10 ft of the original target.

That means that the second roll does not come from the sling, so you don’t get to make an additional attack if the second attack hits.

Or rather, the second roll comes from the same stone. Hence the name of the sling. Honestly base slings are pretty weak, and ranged attacks (with the exception of maybe crossbows with the crossbow master feat) aren't very OP in general to begin with, because of no offhand attacks, smaller damage die and stuff like that. Honestly it's kind of a cool item, but it doesn't feel super broken. You don't even get a chance of that second hit if your initial attack misses, and as others have said you don't get to have a third and a fourth etc hit because the second hit activates upon a successful attack, not upon a successful additional hit. That's how I would choose to read it anyway.

[Misterwhisper]

Looking at your previous posts on the subject, I am having trouble establishing a consistent argument, other than you think the item is overpowered. In one case, it is simply the number of attacks (even at 1d4+6, which others have pointed out isn't half of the abuse potential, since it can be paired with Sharpshooter); in the next it is about how many people you have in a circle, so apparently it is about volley-style effects; and then in another actual power level isn't relevant, since it is okay for casters (I guess a reasonable position, if your primary concern is within-martial-options-balance, which I can understand but for 5e the horse has left the barn).

For reference:

The second point you quoted was when people started talking about volley, which honestly does not come up that often.

However, 2 people within 10 ft of each other and you just make all primary attacks against one and the other free attacks being an added bonus would be MUCH more common.

I have never values sharpshooter as highly as others, I much prefer consistent better to hit bonuses, I would rather it just be a half feat that ignores cover, and possibly point blank disadvantage.

[Mikal]

It was not made in house, it just went through approval and a very quick read over.

Evidence of this? Seeing as how they have several of the developers with credits in book I find this claim spurious at best.


Doubling the number of attacks someone can make in a round if someone else is in 10 feet is not minor.

Almost as if this was supposed to be a rare weapon, that not many people would have.
And who said anything about it being minor. I said it wasn’t overpowered. So... yeah. Don’t strawman.


This thing give every ranged attack you make with it an extra attack as long as there is someone in range for the cost of... nothing. Not even a bonus action.

Wrong. They need to hit with the initial attack.
And even if they do they’re using a subpar weapon to do so.

[kobo1d]

I think it's good enough to make someone seriously consider a sling for the first time in 5E if they know they can obtain this item (sorry not sorry Magic Stone), but also not broken.

Someone might use it to *gasp* make a ranged character that isn't the cookie cutter Hand Crossbow Expert.

[NaughtyTiger]

with regard to magic stone,
once the magic pebble hits or misses its target, it loses its magic.

So would the ricochet attack use your Dex instead of your Wisdom?

[MaxWilson]

I think it's good enough to make someone seriously consider a sling for the first time in 5E if they know they can obtain this item (sorry not sorry Magic Stone), but also not broken.

Not the first time. I've seen Sharpshooters (especially Hunters) use slings instead of arrows because the ammunition is cheaper. Slings are also the best way to kill Flameskulls.

[jaappleton]

That is because The Theros book had no oversight by development teams.

They only include it on DND beyond for the money.

Dude. This is like the third time in two days I’ve seen posts of yours which are flat-out wrong and are full of misinformation.

Stop doing that. Seriously. It’s not OK.

It’s one thing to be opinionated, that’s fine, but spreading outright lies is not OK.

[HappyDaze]

Not the first time. I've seen Sharpshooters (especially Hunters) use slings instead of arrows because the ammunition is cheaper. Slings are also the best way to kill Flameskulls.

In 5e, I've never seen ammunition cost (or weight) be any kind of hindrance at all.

[MaxWilson]

In 5e, I've never seen ammunition cost (or weight) be any kind of hindrance at all.

Which doesn't mean that some players aren't attentive to it anyway.

If you're pretty sure you're going to win this fight against 20 orcs anyway, whether you use expensive arrows (1 gp for 20, effectively $5 an arrow) or cheap sling bullets (4 cp for 20, effectively 20 cents a bullet), some people glory in splurging on arrows or crossbow quarrels, and some delight in winning for $2 instead of $50. Outside of uber-deadly fights, there's not much difference between them except what the player enjoys.

And again, you ought to carry a sling anyway because Flameskulls.

[Yakk]

PAM is strong because it is another attack on the highest priority target every round.

This is an attack on a second target of opportunity.

Even if the second target was just as important as the first, spreading damage over 2 targets is about 1.5x as good as focus firing on ine until it drops then moving on; secondary target damage is "worth" about half primary.

A GWM+PAM flametongue round of attacks is 2d10+1d4+6d6+45 (79.5).

A SS two bird sling is 2d4+32 (37) times 2 targets.

A SS+XBE hand xbow +2 is 3d6+51 (61.5). Usually better.

[jaappleton]

PAM is strong because it is another attack on the highest priority target every round.

This is an attack on a second target of opportunity.

Even if the second target was just as important as the first, spreading damage over 2 targets is about 1.5x as good as focus firing on ine until it drops then moving on; secondary target damage is "worth" about half primary.

A GWM+PAM flametongue round of attacks is 2d10+1d4+6d6+45 (79.5).

A SS two bird sling is 2d4+32 (37) times 2 targets.

A SS+XBE hand xbow +2 is 3d6+51 (61.5). Usually better.

Flametongue is limited to Swords and cannot be paired with PAM. Glaives aren’t swords.

[NaughtyTiger]

Slings are also the best way to kill Flameskulls.

why? (and character padding)

[jaappleton]

why? (and character padding)

Magic Resistance as well as Resistance to Piercing damage means all bow/crossbow options are not a wise choice. Coupled with resistance to Lightning and Necrotic, along with outright Immunity to Poison, Cold and Fire.

A sling is your only solid ranged weapon option.

[MaxWilson]

Magic Resistance as well as Resistance to Piercing damage means all bow/crossbow options are not a wise choice. Coupled with resistance to Lightning and Necrotic, along with outright Immunity to Poison, Cold and Fire.

A sling is your only solid ranged weapon option.

Exactly. :) And they fly and have ranged attacks, so melee weapons are pretty infeasible, and of course they are immune to a bunch of common conditions because they're corporeal undead so you can't e.g. knock them out of the sky with Hypnotic Pattern.

There's other neat things about them too including the Blur + Shield synergy + Fireballl spam that makes you regret not killing them as fast as you can.

I love Flameskulls, wish more monsters were designed to force you to change up your normal tactics and pull out a specialized tool.

[Misterwhisper]

Exactly. :) And they fly, so melee weapons are pretty infeasible, and of course they are immune to a bunch of common conditions because they're corporeal undead so you can't e.g. knock them out of the sky with Hypnotic Pattern.

There's other neat things about them too including the Blur + Shield synergy + Fireballl spam that makes you regret not killing them as fast as you can.

I love Flameskulls, wish more monsters were designed to force you to change up your normal tactics and pull out a specialized tool.

Are they that common in games you are in?

I am sure I have fought them before but it must have made such a small impression I don’t even remember it.

Maybe it is just our usual group composition:

Every campaign WILL have:
A lore bard - I have literally never been in a game without one.
A barbarian - at least the subclass is different sometimes.
A dedicated archer

We will never have:
A druid - nobody in our circle likes them
A blood hunter - too much of a Witcher ripoff
Many of the races will never get played.
- halflings, full Orcs, Dragonborn, almost all oddball races like Goliath, shifters, or grungs

So far nobody has played an alchemist but I am sure someone will eventually. Mostly nobody really likes their subclasses but the new one from the eberron book sparked a few people.

[MaxWilson]

Are they that common in games you are in?

I am sure I have fought them before but it must have made such a small impression I don’t even remember it.

Remember I am speaking from the DM's perspective about smart behavior for PCs in my games. That said, they're not that common, since D&D has hundreds of monster types. They are one of my favorite low-level monsters though so they are common enough to worry about. If you hear about a spooky undead tomb in my games, there's probably a 50% chance it has shadows, wraiths, and/or flameskulls in it somewhere.

[Misterwhisper]

Remember I am speaking from the DM's perspective about smart behavior for PCs in my games. That said, they're not that common, since D&D has hundreds of monster types. They are one of my favorite low-level monsters though so they are common enough to worry about. If you hear about a spooky undead tomb in my games, there's probably a 50% chance it has shadows, wraiths, and/or flameskulls in it somewhere.

I tend to run a much more society and intrigue kind of campaign where it will be mostly created NPCs using normal classes.

I don’t use a lot of monsters, unless they are the intelligent kind of critter that might be hiding amongst normal folks like vampires, doppelgängers, and the like.

[LordCdrMilitant]

So what we have here is a magic item which facilitates up to 296 as an opener attack... if you set up a 14th level build with a specific feat (that is high power in the first place) to support it, they use their action surge (again, a powerful ability in its own right), and everything goes exactly right (sharpshooter paired with an ability that allows extra attacks specifically if the first attack hits is something of a strategy at odds with itself)... that, while nice in many situations, is only devastating in a pretty scripted contrived scenario. I can't argue that it isn't good, but it's not "broken as hell," "absolutely wretched," nor "a goddamn avalanche." It's bad design, it certainly favors the already-ascendant martial build of Sharpshooting Ranged weapon-focused character. However, it's moving that build from "a highly competitive build, for a high-level martial, and with a killer first round" to "a highly competitive build, for a high-level martial, and with a killer first round that can be absolutely devastating in a number of scenarios."

None of this is to say that I think its inclusion was a good idea, as is, and I do think it being outside of the main product line probably did have something to do with it. Ravnica also had some questionable choices, such as giving extra benefits to spellcasters only.

The "specific scenario" is "two enemies are within 10' of each other". Which as far as specific scenarios go, is in fact a very general one. And really, it's not just Alpha Strike damage, it's effectively a standing doubling of their damage output. A regular turn goes from 3d8+45 damage to 3d4+48 damage to two targets within 10' of each other [6d4+96 total].

Also, a mid-level Figher as dicussed using Sharpshooter with this sling would have a +5 [DEX] +4/+8 [Prof] +2 [Fighting Style] +1 [ENCH] -5 [Sharpshooter] for a very solid +7/+8 to hit, which is essentially the same probability or better than using his Longbow. If he would sharpshooter his longbow, he'd also sharpshooter this sling.


I tend to run a much more society and intrigue kind of campaign where it will be mostly created NPCs using normal classes.

I don’t use a lot of monsters, unless they are the intelligent kind of critter that might be hiding amongst normal folks like vampires, doppelgängers, and the like.

I as well. I don't generally use feral monsters unless they were put there or are otherwise being handled by someone intelligent with a plan. Most enemies in my games are intelligent humanoid infantry. Sometimes, there are war machines crewed by intelligent humanoids.

[Willie the Duck]

Also, a mid-level Figher as dicussed using Sharpshooter with this sling would have a +5 [DEX] +4/+8 [Prof] +2 [Fighting Style] +1 [ENCH] -5 [Sharpshooter] for a very solid +7/+8 to hit, which is essentially the same probability or better than using his Longbow. If he would sharpshooter his longbow, he'd also sharpshooter this sling.

Pretty sure Sharpshooter was assumed in everyone's analysis.

[MrCharlie]

It's a ranged weapon, so why not Sharpshooter?

Now it's (10+5+1d4+1)*<Attacks> = 296 mean damage.

Also, it doesn't take 16 tightly formed low-health enemies, it just takes 2 within 10 feet. All 8 lead attacks target one for 148 damage, and then the 8 ricochets all hit the second one for 148. That's like double a twinned disintegrate.
Well, the key there is to actually hit. Sling samurai with Elven accuracy, anyone? Now you just need a green tunic and you're officially a cosplayer!

Honestly, a fighter dealing more damage than a twinned disintegrate seems correct and fair to me. Martials should do more damage than spellcasters to a small number of targets. If you add up what a fireball does to a large enough group, you end up with comparable amounts, and that's a third level spell.

Now, this much more damage is a bit :smallconfused: but you do have to spread the damage around a little and high damage archer builds are nothing new. I don't have a huge problemw ith this-except the volley hack that spawns 20 bullets from nowhere, and I only have a problem with that because it's absolutely ludicrous even with magic. I'd prefer it if the number of extra ricochets was limited per day, maybe something like five charges and use a charge to ricochet, etc.

[Willie the Duck]

Well, the key there is to actually hit. Sling samurai with Elven accuracy, anyone? Now you just need a green tunic and you're officially a cosplayer!

Honestly, a fighter dealing more damage than a twinned disintegrate seems correct and fair to me. Martials should do more damage than spellcasters to a small number of targets. If you add up what a fireball does to a large enough group, you end up with comparable amounts, and that's a third level spell.

Now, this much more damage is a bit :smallconfused: but you do have to spread the damage around a little and high damage archer builds are nothing new.

Generally agree. Doing lots of combat damage is what fighters are supposed to do. There was a build in 3e (Hulking Hurler, if anyone cares) that was this but even moreso -- the damage it could do was for all intents and purposes infinite given the HP totals in the game, yet it hardly was the most OP thing in the game. What it did do was skew how the game played out -- DMs (when they ran into it) using lots of deception, throwing physical attack-immune creatures disproportionately into the mix, setting up the dungeon such that ranged combat was less of a sure thing, etc. I don't see that happening with this (although having exactly two big-bads who stand conspicuously close to each other just became even rarer). What I do see with this is the other guy in the party who wanted to do physical combat feeling wildly outclassed. Sadly, that's already the case with 5e: the TWF fighter or sword and board featless character who was keeping pace at level 1 is not going to be keeping pace with a PAM/GWM halberder, SS/XBE archer, etc. already. This just exacerbates the existing within-martial disparity. Again, not to say that I think it is brilliant design work, I just don't see it as a huge threat to the game working.

[MrCharlie]

Generally agree. Doing lots of combat damage is what fighters are supposed to do. There was a build in 3e (Hulking Hurler, if anyone cares) that was this but even moreso -- the damage it could do was for all intents and purposes infinite given the HP totals in the game, yet it hardly was the most OP thing in the game. What it did do was skew how the game played out -- DMs (when they ran into it) using lots of deception, throwing physical attack-immune creatures disproportionately into the mix, setting up the dungeon such that ranged combat was less of a sure thing, etc. I don't see that happening with this (although having exactly two big-bads who stand conspicuously close to each other just became even rarer). What I do see with this is the other guy in the party who wanted to do physical combat feeling wildly outclassed. Sadly, that's already the case with 5e: the TWF fighter or sword and board featless character who was keeping pace at level 1 is not going to be keeping pace with a PAM/GWM halberder, SS/XBE archer, etc. already. This just exacerbates the existing within-martial disparity. Again, not to say that I think it is brilliant design work, I just don't see it as a huge threat to the game working.
I remember the hulking hurler! I think my group finally abandoned that madness when half the party was larger than the dungeons we were attempting to enter, and also capable (and willing, being several flavors of demonic aberration) to throw the entire thing into the stratosphere.

Anyway, I feel slightly better for sword/boards given that pretty much all artifact level weapons that I know of are one-handed and some are actually strong enough to close the gap (still), although TWFers still have a tough time of it.

[Yakk]

So a level 20 fighter with a 25 strength belt runs up and GWM flametongue attacks a foe at +8 to hit at 4d6+17 (31) damage per hit, 8 times for 248. On one target. No subclass abilities used.

Suppose advantage and AC 20, then 70% hit chance 10% crit chance for 184.8 average damage.

This does 148 on one target and (only if all of those hit) 148 on the second. Suppose 22 dex, advantage, champion, and elven advantage on AC 20. 11+ to hit for 88% hit chance 38% crit chance.

7 hits on primary target, 6.2 on secondary, 5.7 crits. 1d4+16 (18.5) damage per hit. 258.5 total damage.

Or a level 20 elf fighter with 22 dex and a flametongue double scimitar does 17d4 + 18d6 + 54 = 159.5 at +12 to hit; lets say this is a champion and has advantage and elven accuracy on 20 AC. 95% hit chance, 38% crit chance, so 192 average damage.

Secondary target damage is worth about 1/2 primary target damage, so even when there are two targets the GWM flametongue, or flametongue double scimitar, is usually more useful. And when there aren't two targets, this is "only" 137.8 single target damage.

And without advantage, the tap damage is 8.5 at +14 vs 21 at +13 vs 18 at +12.

(Gear used: Tome to get 22 dex on dex builds, belt to get 25 strength on strength builds, flametongue weapons vs two-bird sling).