Shove... into an occupied space?

[CheddarChampion]

What happens when one creature attempts to shove another creature into a third creature's space?

Does it fail? Do the two creatures now occupy the same space? Do the second and third creatures fall prone? Can the third creature make an athletics or acrobatics check to be unaffected?

What about into a wall?

Does it depend on the DM's whim?

[Man_Over_Game]

Does it depend on the DM's whim?

Bingo. The closest you get to any info on this is:

MOVING AROUND OTHER CREATURES: You can move through a non hostile creature’s space. (...) Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can’t willingly end your move in its space. (PHB 191)

But whether that implies it's possible to be in an occupied space is another question. Personally, I've always liked the idea of making the target Prone if they can't move further, as the Shove Attack has them be interchangeable.

[pming]

Hiya!


What happens when one creature attempts to shove another creature into a third creature's space?

Does it fail? Do the two creatures now occupy the same space? Do the second and third creatures fall prone? Can the third creature make an athletics or acrobatics check to be unaffected?

What about into a wall?

Does it depend on the DM's whim?

Short answer: "Yes".
;)

Long answer: "It depends".

Best answer: "Ask your DM...then do that". D&D can't cover every concievable situation, and ever situation can be different due to a myraid of factors. So if you decide "DC 12 Athletics check to avoid the pushed creature", that's a fine base. Now adjust it up/down for things like size, awareness, light, surface they are fighting on, damage each has taken, etc. If you (generic you) are simply looking for a ruling to point to and say "Nuh-uh, DM! THIS rule says it's DC 10 Athletics or Dexterity Save. Period! So there!"...well, then 5e isn't your game.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Hiya!



Short answer: "Yes".
;)

Long answer: "It depends".

Best answer: "Ask your DM...then do that". D&D can't cover every concievable situation, and ever situation can be different due to a myraid of factors. So if you decide "DC 12 Athletics check to avoid the pushed creature", that's a fine base. Now adjust it up/down for things like size, awareness, light, surface they are fighting on, damage each has taken, etc. If you (generic you) are simply looking for a ruling to point to and say "Nuh-uh, DM! THIS rule says it's DC 10 Athletics or Dexterity Save. Period! So there!"...well, then 5e isn't your game.
I agree that DnD isn't supposed to cover everything... but this particular one seems pretty common in our games. Anywhere in close quarters fighting creatures with reach this can come up. It'd be nice to have something published as a starting point.

[NaughtyTiger]

I agree that DnD isn't supposed to cover everything... but this particular one seems pretty common in our games. Anywhere in close quarters fighting creatures with reach this can come up. It'd be nice to have something published as a starting point.

It comes up every other game, and I am still dumbfounded when the player asks me...

[Dienekes]

It comes up every other game, and I am still dumbfounded when the player asks me...

I have done this:

When a creature is forcibly moved but is unable to complete the movement do to interacting with a solid object (such as a wall) they take 1d6 damage for every 5 feet they did not move, and must make a Strength saving throw equal to the 5 + damage or fall prone. If their movement is stopped by another creature within the damage is split between both creatures and they both must make the Strength saving throw.

So far no one's complained.

[Amnestic]

I have done this:

When a creature is forcibly moved but is unable to complete the movement do to interacting with a solid object (such as a wall) they take 1d6 damage for every 5 feet they did not move, and must make a Strength saving throw equal to the 5 + damage or fall prone. If their movement is stopped by another creature within the damage is split between both creatures and they both must make the Strength saving throw.

So far no one's complained.

A potential extra 2d6 per beam on eldritch blast seems pretty potent to me. I'd definitely be side-eyeing a warlock dip (even more than people already do).

[clash]

I have done this:

When a creature is forcibly moved but is unable to complete the movement do to interacting with a solid object (such as a wall) they take 1d6 damage for every 5 feet they did not move, and must make a Strength saving throw equal to the 5 + damage or fall prone. If their movement is stopped by another creature within the damage is split between both creatures and they both must make the Strength saving throw.

So far no one's complained.

I run it similar to this except use fall damage sideways as it were so 1d6 for every 10ft. It it collides with another creature they both take the damage

[5eNeedsDarksun]

As I think about this more the thing that makes the most sense to me and only requires one roll is for the target of the shove to effectively be helped by the creature in the space behind on the roll to resist. If the attacker wins, then both targets have to move back.

[Dienekes]

A potential extra 2d6 per beam on eldritch blast seems pretty potent to me. I'd definitely be side-eyeing a warlock dip (even more than people already do).

Yeah won’t try to justify that one. I’ve never GMed for a warlock so that combo never crossed my mind.

[Montesquieu P.]

Even when it's an Ancient Dragon slamming one kobold into another, the two kobolds don't occupy the same space -- intermingling atomic structures would take Magic. :smallbiggrin:

Years of wrestling, rondori, plus some fencing, sword-and-shield practice, and two black belts, taught me that you get physically displaced if (a) your balance is upset [failed Dex(Acrobatics) resistance, (b) your mass&balance-point are displaced [failed Str(Athletics)], or (c) both (usually accompanied by mental imbalancing also). The default result arises from the truism: "Gravity works...and is always waiting".:smalleek:

For the person who's been displaced (the 'Shove-ee'), I'd have them attempt the _other_ roll -- and at Disadvantage unless they are Proficient in that specific skill. Fail this second roll, and the Shove--ee is prone. Because unless you're highly trained in one-on-one interactions, the surprise impact from the other person (or environmental element, i.e. wall, chair, animal, whatever) bollocks up your non-conscious response. Multiple-attacker defense is pretty much reserved for black belts for a reason.

The impacted person or 'Bumpee' then makes their own Str[Athletics] or Dex[Acrobatics] roll to avoid going Prone. (Gravity is always waiting.)

Then you have two people in the same hexspace, which makes it Difficult Terrain for both. Whether or not one, or both, are Prone.
----
As for changing the roll of the 'Shove-ee', that only happens if the other person uses the 'Help' action. Which is precisely what happens in a trained phalanx or Shield Wall. For the untrained in a formation? We-ell...let's just say we trained precisely to avoid 'all fall down' chain reactions.:smalltongue: