Divine Soul: Is it really that good?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

So, I'm a fan of Sorcerers. I've played a Dragon and a Shadow and thought they were both great. I read a lot about how some people love the Divine Soul, I think based largely on the access to Cleric spells.
In my experience I never had an issue finding good spells to cast from the Sorcerer list, so the big hook for this sub-class for me basically solves a problem that doesn't really exist. And truthfully I don't love the theme as much as the other 2.
Anyway, maybe someone out there can convince me. Is the Divine Soul Sorcerer actually that good?

[MaxWilson]

For you, no. For you it's a solution in search of an problem.

For people that think the sorc list is poor, roughly doubling its size is kind of a big deal. Also it's an big deal for people who think clerics are lame, because from this angle you get access to the sorc list, metamagic, and to warlock invocations via warlock dips.

But if you already don't miss spells like Symbol, Simulacrum, Evard's Black Tentacles, Contingency, Wall of Force, Animate Dead, Tiny Servant, etc., and are perfectly happy with base sorcerer spells, you're not really the target audience for this subclass.

I like it though, would rather have a Divine Soul in the party than a cleric.

[Misterwhisper]

For you, no. For you it's a solution in search of an problem.

For people that think the sorc list is poor, roughly doubling its size is kind of a big deal. Also it's an big deal for people who think clerics are lame, because from this angle you get access to the sorc list, metamagic, and to warlock invocations via warlock dips.

But if you already don't miss spells like Symbol, Simulacrum, Evard's Black Tentacles, Contingency, Wall of Force, Animate Dead, Tiny Servant, etc., and are perfectly happy with base sorcerer spells, you're not really the target audience for this subclass.

I like it though, would rather have a Divine Soul in the party than a cleric.

Same here, I will take a divine soul twinning a heal or a buff all day.

I think it says more to the Cleric being kind of Meh.

Arcana is nice, but because you get to steal some good arcana spells.

[sithlordnergal]

So, I'm a fan of Sorcerers. I've played a Dragon and a Shadow and thought they were both great. I read a lot about how some people love the Divine Soul, I think based largely on the access to Cleric spells.
In my experience I never had an issue finding good spells to cast from the Sorcerer list, so the big hook for this sub-class for me basically solves a problem that doesn't really exist. And truthfully I don't love the theme as much as the other 2.
Anyway, maybe someone out there can convince me. Is the Divine Soul Sorcerer actually that good?

So, Divine Soul is as good as you've heard, simply because they have a lot more spells they can choose from. Don't get me wrong, as a Sorcerer player myself, I tend to go Wild Magic, I feel the Sorcerer has a fine selection of spells. But having access to Cleric spells is still extremely useful to have access to. You gain key Cleric spells like Healing Word, Spiritual Weapon, Animate Dead, Revivify, Death Ward, True Resurrection, Anti-Magic Field, and Heal. It basically lets you take all the healing and support a Cleric can provide and mixes it with the blasting power that a Sorcerer normally has.

The only other class with that sort of potential to mix Support/Blasting is the Bard with their Magical Secrets...and even then the Divine Soul has easier and better access to it all. On top of that you make an excellent healer, letting your allies to reroll a dice while healing, and you eventually are able to heal up to half your HP.

That said, the Divine Soul Sorcerer is far, far better in a multiclass build. Specifically, its amazing on a Paladin/Sorcerer, giving you access to super thematic spells that help Paladins wreck shop. Things like Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians are even more amazing on a Soradin then they are on Clerics.

[Tanarii]

I think more than anything else it feels like a good role/type. Lightly/no armored caster priest with blastiness. You could do that with a light cleric of course but that's wisdom based. Some folks might prefer Cha based.

[CTurbo]

I think Divine Soul is possibly the best support class in the game. So yeah it's really good.

[paladinn]

I would agree, if all you wanted was cleric spells, just be a cleric. You get better armor and some sweet domain abilities, better combat, turn undead, etc.

That said, divine souls are good for a number of things. You get arcane And divine spells, so you can heal and fireball both. Metamagic is really cool if used properly. If your DM allows it, the elemental spell option is The reason to be a sorcerer instead of a wizard.

Multiclassing is awesome with a DS, especially with a paladin (recommend vengeance) and/or a warlock (hexblade). One level of warlock gets you CHA SADness; paladin can use the DS spell slots for smites. So much synergy.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Thanks for the responses. Some things to think about. I did enjoy playing a Light Cleric which seems to cover some of the same territory, so from a thematic point of view maybe I just need to get my head around it.

[MaxWilson]

Thanks for the responses. Some things to think about. I did enjoy playing a Light Cleric which seems to cover some of the same territory, so from a thematic point of view maybe I just need to get my head around it.

The main thing to keep in mind is that you have very, very few spells known, so you have to be in the kind of mindset that says (approximately) "as long as I can Bless and Revivify people, Spiritual Weapon or Fireball enemies, Shield myself, and drop some Webs or Fear for crowd control and Polymorph for buffing, I'm happy." You have more powers than one of the X-Men but fewer powers than a D&D wizard.

(Or to put it differently, you have fewer powers than Harry Dresden is capable of employing but more different types of magic than Harry actively uses in a typical novel.)

[AvalancheSpring]

I think Divine Soul is possibly the best support class in the game. So yeah it's really good.

Bard says "Hold my Lute"

But yeah, Divine Soul is also pretty great :)

[NecessaryWeevil]

Divine Soul was my choice when I thought, "I want to play a healer/support again but I want something different from a Cleric (or Bard)."

[Contrast]

I have a Divine Soul sorc at the moment and I'm enjoying it much more than I anticipated (though I cheated and picked up some levels of Hexblade for the armour and EB).

Being able to pick up Healing Word and Bless is really good though I'm not as convinced more broadly that its as powerful as people say. They really locked down metamagic and there's remarkably little synergy that you can exploit your metamagics on with the cleric spell list that you wouldn't already be able to do similarily with the sorc spell list.

Admittedly my experience may be skewed because Spiritual Weapon is a great spell but with Hex, Hexblades Curse and Quicken my bonus action already felt pretty clogged a lot of the time.

You can pick up the best cleric spells but as a sorc you really need to be optimising your metamagic to justify why you aren't a bard or wizard and I'm not convinced the cleric spell list really helps with that.


So in summary - more Healing Word is always good but if something else appeals to you thematically I wouldn't say its such a huge deal that I'd play it over something I preferred the sound of.

[Dudu]

You know what, it's crazy, but I see the Favored Soul as almost an strict uprade of... Arcana Domain cleric.
Why? Because they have a better access to non cleric spells (technically, their base class spells).

So, rather, I think the Favored Soul fixes a cleric problem, which is, how they have amazing option in early level but slow down to a crawl. When you are a Favored Soul, you can have all the bread and butter cleric spells from early game (Bless, Spiritual Wpn, Spirit Guardians, Healing Word, Revivify...). But instead of dealing with the lackluster high level options clerics do, you have access to the busted high level of sorcerers.

Plus, metamagic grants you interesting options. A well know one is twin casting otherwise single target spells. A less well known one is subtle casting crucial spells bypassing Counterspell by enemies. The cleric is great when what seemed to be a TPK turned out to be a cleric with 1HP (due to Deathward) casting Mass Healing Word and bringing back all his allies. But even that perfect example of cleric awesomeness can be foiled by a cheeky Counterspell (if your DM is a sociopath, but they do exist). Not for sorcerers.

Want another reason? Sorcerers use CHA instead of WIS. Yes, Wisdom, in a vacuum, is better because it is keyed to a much more common save and used skills, however, as far as multiclass potential go, Charisma is king. Bards, Paladins and Warlocks all benefit from it, and you can have that - beat down, I admit - dip in Hexblade to make yourself a very capable melee combatant.

And... one more thing, in case I didn't sell you Favored Souls yet: They get Con save right of the bat, which is a dream for spellcasters.

So, rather than seeing Favored Soul solely as a different way of playing Sorcerer, it helps you to see it as a different (and very powerful) way of playing a Cleric (which is a very strong class to begin with). 100% worth a shot.

[Satori01]

It doesn't surprise me that many posts reference the Divine Soul as part of a multi-classed build. The breadth of the spell choices it has, exacerbates the so few spells known by the Sorcerer class.

The subclass suffers also from abilities, that while useful, are written in a dull manner, and are very derivative of prior editions. How many people use the Divine Soul subclass for single classed sorcerers?

Being able to Prepare spells from the cleric spell list, is the whole point......from day to day a cleric can change their approach drastically by swapping options from the cleric list.

[MrStabby]

Yes. It is that powerful.

I think, perhaps naturally, it is best to see it as a hybrid of sorcerer and cleric with some of the good and bad of each.

It does miss out on important cleric stuff. Armour, shields and ways to make long days tolerable. Clerics get boosts to cantrips or make adequate melee attacks for when they need to conserve resources. Clerics have access to more spells and can swap them about. Channel divinity can vary from useless to being an extremely powerful short rest resource. The cleric relative to the sorcerer avoids failing concentration saves by being hit less with a higher AC rather than con save proficiency. You dont give up these things lightly.

On the other hand, clerics suffer a bit from a lack of spells to cast that dont use concentration and solid damage spells - those turn to turn things like fireball. Being based on a sorcerer fixes this. Not saying cleric spells like guiding bolt are not good, but they fade with level.

Divine soul is kind of pick your poison.

Divine soul is pretty great though from its spell list alone. Yes, it needs careful crafting but there are so many great cleric spells that are more universally applicable than the sorcerer spells and spells that upcast really well that I find that counterintuitively it takes pressure off the limited spells known rather than adding it.

Then you have metamagic. This is a powerful, game changing ability - no doubt. My experience is that its benefits depend greatly on the type of campaign you have though. Isolated adventures where you can prebuff with extended duration non-concentration cleric spells - almost broken. Grueling multi-day slogs through megadungeons with no resources left at the end of each day - still powerful. Social game where subtle spell shines - awesome as any sorcerer is.

I find that I get good mileage out of using sorcery points to offset the weakness relative to clerics - sustainability. What you do when not using spell slots. I find twinned cantrips to be a powerful way of stretching my resources through the day.

So yeah, divine soul is pretty awesome.

[Bobthewizard]

I think it depends on the level for me. At low levels, I find divine soul sorcerers spread too thin. They have too few preparations and no armor. So at low levels I would prefer to play a light or arcana cleric for a similar feel.

At high levels though, for me the cleric spell list pales in comparison to the sorcerer list. So starting at level 7 or 9 or so, I would much rather play a divine soul sorcerer than a cleric.

[Foxydono]

I'm not a fan, but I'm also nog a fan of healing or clerics. I think the sorcerer spells are just fine. Healing in 5e is overrated and should only be done when someone falls to 0 hit points. That being said, I do like sorcerers and if I had to play a healer type, then I would play either a paladin or devine soul sorcerer. Most likely with a hexblade dip.

Anyway, to each their own, but to me the subclass adds very little value.

[stoutstien]

Divine soul definitely comes in their own in the later tiers as one of the best summoning focused classes. Before that they do just fine with buffing and blasting but must be very careful about their spell selection.

[jaappleton]

Divine Soul is quite good, especially if you play with Unearthed Arcana. I am referring specifically to the Class Variant UA, in which Sorcs can swap out a spell on a long rest as opposed to when they level up. (Side Note: Jeremy Crawford has stated it was intended to also be able to swap Metamagic in the same way. They simply forgot to include it in the document.)

I find playing a Sorcerer well, mechanically, requires a bit of a tactical mind. Using Twinned to Haste the Barbarian and Paladin together can radically alter an encounter. It seems like an obvious thing, but.... you'd be surprised how often I've seen people not take advantage of the raw power a Sorcerer has, and I'm not talking about the ability to hurl a Fireball.

IMO, Clerics are a bit of a better option depending on how you want to play. Their power comes not necessary from their spell list (Which is a solid B- overall) but in the resource management and abilities granted by their Domain. Tempest getting extra damage out of a single spell slot through Channel Divinity, or Grave saving on healing spell slots because they negated a Crit. If you're looking for a little more of a relaxed, closer to auto-pilot feel, I recommend Cleric for these reasons, plus its higher AC.

If you prefer a more tactical style of play where you know, outright, you can radically alter a battle through things like Twinned Shield of Faith, or Heightened Hold Person to paralyze a tough foe, you're going to enjoy Sorcerer so much more.

And that's the strength of the Divine Soul. Now you can double your spell list to have that many more spells to choose from with which you can alter the landscape with. For some, it can be an overwhelming choice; So many excellent spells to choose from, how can I possibly leave ______ off the list?

[patchyman]

I love Divine Souls, but mostly for narrative reasons. Like others have said, Divine Souls are more of an alternative for healing classes than for Sorcerers.

Want to play a cleric, but find that a priest trained in medium or heavy armor makes no sense? Divine Sorcerer.

Want to play a charismatic preacher type rather than the wise counseler? Divine Sorcerer!

[Pex]

I have a Divine Soul sorc at the moment and I'm enjoying it much more than I anticipated (though I cheated and picked up some levels of Hexblade for the armour and EB).

Being able to pick up Healing Word and Bless is really good though I'm not as convinced more broadly that its as powerful as people say. They really locked down metamagic and there's remarkably little synergy that you can exploit your metamagics on with the cleric spell list that you wouldn't already be able to do similarily with the sorc spell list.

Admittedly my experience may be skewed because Spiritual Weapon is a great spell but with Hex, Hexblades Curse and Quicken my bonus action already felt pretty clogged a lot of the time.

You can pick up the best cleric spells but as a sorc you really need to be optimising your metamagic to justify why you aren't a bard or wizard and I'm not convinced the cleric spell list really helps with that.


So in summary - more Healing Word is always good but if something else appeals to you thematically I wouldn't say its such a huge deal that I'd play it over something I preferred the sound of.

The key metamagic for Divine Soul is Twin. Twin Healing Word is a big deal, especially in tough fights for the pop-up healing. Twin Guiding Bolt is more than blasting. It can give advantage to attacking two bad guys. Twin Guidance. Twin Sanctuary. Twin Shield of Faith. Twin Cure Wounds. Twin Hold Person. Twin Lesser Restoration. You can get a lot of mileage from low level spells.

[Amechra]

You can certainly do worse, as far as Sorcerer subclasses go. Clerics have a pretty solid spell list, and you basically trade versatility for the ability to use their spells better than they can.

I think part of the reputation it has is because it kinda forces you to view the Sorcerer as a support class if you want to use it most effectively. And the dirty secret behind the sorcerer is that they can make better use of any buffs they know, since they can use Distant/Extend/Twin on them.

[Blood of Gaea]

Divine Soul isn't great because the Sorcerer list is weak or that the Cleric list is unbelievably amazing. It's good because Cleric offers things that Sorcerer does not. If you're building a support caster, it's an easy decision to pick out some key spells like Healing Word, Heal, Aid, and the like. It's also quite good for a Sorcadin, because some of the Cleric spells fit well on a melee build, with a special note going towards Spirit Guardians.

Where Divine Soul does not shine is if you wish to play a controller or blaster, a different subclass will serve you better here.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Some interesting comparisons to Clerics here that are making me think, so thanks again. I think I'd really have to weigh the benefits of a Sorcerer base vs. losing armor and hp off the hop compared to say a Light or Tempest Cleric if that was the type of character I was interested in. I think some of the responses that mentioned that Divine Souls make good multi classes and get better at higher levels make sense... though I've got to say I never felt the need to multi class my Hill Dwarf Light Cleric. He just got better and tankier the further he went. That said, I do recognize that the metamagic benefits can change encounters.

[Dork_Forge]

Some interesting comparisons to Clerics here that are making me think, so thanks again. I think I'd really have to weigh the benefits of a Sorcerer base vs. losing armor and hp off the hop compared to say a Light or Tempest Cleric if that was the type of character I was interested in. I think some of the responses that mentioned that Divine Souls make good multi classes and get better at higher levels make sense... though I've got to say I never felt the need to multi class my Hill Dwarf Light Cleric. He just got better and tankier the further he went. That said, I do recognize that the metamagic benefits can change encounters.

In a lot of ways you benefit more from not multiclassing on any Sorcerer, the more Sorc levels you have the more Sorcery points you have to play with and you won't be stalling your slot/spell progression.

In my opinion they're a strong option because of Metamagic (Twinning a Guiding Bolt is a great Blaster/support mix strategy, twinning Death Ward and Healing Word are also fantastic, as is Extending the duration of potent buffs) and that they introduce a short rest resource (Favored by the Gods) to the Sorcerer.

A couple tips: You get one Cleric spell based on your alignment, you can change this spell out to be whatever Cleric spell you want on level up, so just think of it like expanding your Spells Known in general, it does go a small way to helping the spells known burden.

On the same token, Magic Initiate: Cleric would also be a decent option for you since you should be able to cast whatever spell you get from it with spell slots as Cleric Spells are now Sorcerer spells (some DMs may not approve this, it's hardly game breaking though), you can't swap this out so a good mainstay spell like Guiding Bolt or Healing Word is advisable.

[Pex]

On the same token, Magic Initiate: Cleric would also be a decent option for you since you should be able to cast whatever spell you get from it with spell slots as Cleric Spells are now Sorcerer spells (some DMs may not approve this, it's hardly game breaking though), you can't swap this out so a good mainstay spell like Guiding Bolt or Healing Word is advisable.

I'd do it as Sorcerer for Mage Armor. Get one free casting per day, and it doesn't take up a Known Spell Slot. Know Shield spell for emergencies.

I wouldn't take Spirit Guardians as a Divine Soul. You don't want to be close to melee. Fireball is fine.

It might be worth considering, if it's your taste, to oversupply yourself with 1st level spells. You'd want Shield and Absorb Elements from Sorcerer, and take the good Cleric spells as well. Let Bless be your Concentration spell, but also consider Bane and Shield of Faith to use when needed. Have Healing Word and Guiding Bolt, spells that increase in effect cast at 2nd level. Take Fire Bolt and Toll The Dead for damage Cantrips. You are forgoing spells like Hold Person and Phantasmal Force, but you'll be twinning a lot. Without the pressure of having so many 2nd level spells known you'll feel you can afford to use your 2nd level slots to cast first level spells or convert to Sorcery points to fuel more metamagic. The idea is you're Buffing Blaster character, be team support while also directly attacking. Third level spells are your big guns like Fireball. You'll probably want to stick with Sorcerer spells here for Haste and Counterspell as well. 4th level spells go minimal such as Polymorph and Death Ward only, affordable to get rid of Bane and Shield of Faith now to make room. 5th level spells go big again. The hard part is your own self-imposed incentive. You want to cast as high a level spell as you can. You need to learn to accept that low level spells are still that good at higher level play. It's not for everyone. It's a strategy not the only one.

[Dork_Forge]

I'd do it as Sorcerer for Mage Armor. Get one free casting per day, and it doesn't take up a Known Spell Slot. Know Shield spell for emergencies.


Mage Armor is a solid choice as well, going Cleric was partially motivated by being able to grab cantrips out of the Sorcerer's wheel house, Guidance being the prime choice.

[Pex]

Mage Armor is a solid choice as well, going Cleric was partially motivated by being able to grab cantrips out of the Sorcerer's wheel house, Guidance being the prime choice.

You can take Guidance as a Divine Soul. Use Magic Initiate to pick up the Sorcerer Cantrips you had to give up for Cleric Cantrips. Get Mage Hand and Minor Illusion for example. Variant Human for the win.

[RSP]

I'd do it as Sorcerer for Mage Armor.

I’d suggest doing Shield over MA for Magic Initiate: Sorc. On the off chance you get something like a Robe if the Archmage that gives you a new AC calculation, MA becomes useless, and you’ve wasted your free 1x/day casting.

Shield never goes out of style and having it as a 1x/day free casting will always be useful.

[Blood of Gaea]

I’d suggest doing Shield over MA for Magic Initiate: Sorc. On the off chance you get something like a Robe if the Archmage that gives you a new AC calculation, MA becomes useless, and you’ve wasted your free 1x/day casting.

Shield never goes out of style and having it as a 1x/day free casting will always be useful.
There's always Find Familiar, just take Wizard instead of Sorcerer and don't pick stat dependent cantrips.

[Ganryu]

Its ungodly powerful. The Cleric Spell list is almost entirely what the class is based around. They get almost nothing from 11- 17 other than spells. And they are one of the most powerful classes in teh game able to do a wide variety of things.

And other things they get:
Turn Undead: Useful against ONE type of enemy
Upgrades to Turn Undead like Destroy Undead: Doesn't make it more useful

Divine Intervention: One of the most powerful abilities in the game... that is a real dice roll in combat. Probably won't do anything, has a 1/10 chance at first of even going off.

You will find no one who calls Clerics weak though.


Sorcerer's not only get access to this spell list, they can strictly upgrade it with metamagic. AND all the bonus that a subclass brings. And they can make more spells.

Now it's not all sunshine and roses. One of the Clerics main strengths is also how many spells they get and the flexibility to change them out, but yeah, poaching their spell list does make the Divine Soul Sorcerer pretty good on its own. Twin Heal is insane.

[Sol0botmate]

For me it's just better Cleric. My fav build as party support is: 1 Life Cleric/19 Divine Soul Sorcerer. I have all great spells that Cleric has + Heavy Armor + shield, but I also have: Shield, Absorb Elements, Fireball, Haste, Counterspell, Wish etc. etc.

And I have Metamagic To boost my support side to the point where no Cleric can get:

Twin Haste, Twin Holy Weapon, Twin Healing Word, Twin Heal, Twin Regeneration, Twin Banishment, Quicken Heal, Quicken Spiritual Guardians, Quicken Fireball, Subtle Counterspell, Extended Death Wish etc.

And if you go for litte more delayed route 2 Paladin/18 Divine Soul you are again a Cleric on steroids with all the goods above but you also get BB, GFB, Quicken BB + Smites so you can go in, surrounded by Spirit Guardians, Smacking people with Smites while counterspelling enemy caster and Quicken BB if you need to Smite more. And still I run in heavy armor with shield and with any martial/simple weapon I will get during campaign.

I love this subclass IF you want to play support. For me it's just better Cleric.

[RSP]

There's always Find Familiar, just take Wizard instead of Sorcerer and don't pick stat dependent cantrips.

FF I guess isn’t bad, but I’d still rather have Shield as my freebie cast per day (if I wanted FF, I’d just grab Ritual Caster rather than MI). Plus any cantrips picked up need to non-Attack, non-Save d/t being Int based. Certainly can plan around this, but it’s still a factor.

[Merudo]

Sorcerers get access to two powerful meta-magic: Twin Spell, which can double buffs, and Subtle Spell, which can break social campaigns.

If you are not interested in either, there is little point in playing any Sorcerer.

If you are, then Divine Soul is arguably the best option. You get a free spell at level 1, access to a handful of worthwhile Cleric spells, and the ability to add 2d4 to a saving throw.

My main issue with Sorcerers is that they have too little utility due to the abysmal number of spells they known. They end up learning a few powerful tricks that they spam continuously. The Divine Soul gives a greater pool of tricks to pick from, but aside from the free spell at level 1, they still suffer from the same problems as any other Sorcerer.



Sorcerer's not only get access to [the Cleric's] spell list, they can strictly upgrade it with metamagic. AND all the bonus that a subclass brings. And they can make more spells.

Clerics rely heavily on Spirit Guardians to make meaningful contributions during combat. Unfortunately, between the d6 hp and lack of armor & shield proficiency, the Divine Soul is ill equipped to take advantage of the spell.

[Makorel]

For people who have played or seen a Divine Soul Sorcerer in play: What spells and metamagics do you take, and what synergies make them so much better than just being a Cleric? I ask not because this question hasn't necessarily been answered in this thread but because I think showing the specific synergies that Divine Soul gets is more beneficial to demonstrating their power than generally saying "Cleric List and metamagics is good".

[Dork_Forge]

For people who have played or seen a Divine Soul Sorcerer in play: What spells and metamagics do you take, and what synergies make them so much better than just being a Cleric? I ask not because this question hasn't necessarily been answered in this thread but because I think showing the specific synergies that Divine Soul gets is more beneficial to demonstrating their power than generally saying "Cleric List and metamagics is good".

I'm fond of twinning Guiding Bolt and Cure Wounds (the difference in hp between CW and HW is more significant with twinning since the cost to do so is the same. Though I play a style where I don't want people to drop to begin with, so if you prefer to yoyo heal this likely won't matter).

[MaxWilson]

For people who have played or seen a Divine Soul Sorcerer in play: What spells and metamagics do you take, and what synergies make them so much better than just being a Cleric? I ask not because this question hasn't necessarily been answered in this thread but because I think showing the specific synergies that Divine Soul gets is more beneficial to demonstrating their power than generally saying "Cleric List and metamagics is good".

Extended Death Ward and Extended Aid let you cast spells before you take a long rest and still have them active the next day. If you have access to Aura of Vitality somehow (e.g. Mark of Healing) it also doubles the healing power spell.

If you were playing with pop-up healing (I don't) there'd be value in Twin Healing Word. Hopefully you won't ever need Twin Revivify but it is cheaper in material components than two Revivify spells.

Wish (Contingency) + Raise Dead (self), or Greater Restoration (self), is not metamagic but is still a Divine Soul thing.

Careful Symbol of Insanity is amazing.

(Twin Warding Bond and Twin Ceremony could potentially be... unique and amusing, if nothing else, but I've never seen either done.)

Mainly though it's about the "cleric" getting access to things like Twin Polymorph and Careful Web, Fireball, Shield, etc.

[Ogre Mage]

For people who have played or seen a Divine Soul Sorcerer in play: What spells and metamagics do you take, and what synergies make them so much better than just being a Cleric? I ask not because this question hasn't necessarily been answered in this thread but because I think showing the specific synergies that Divine Soul gets is more beneficial to demonstrating their power than generally saying "Cleric List and metamagics is good".

I found twinned healing word, cure wounds, command and guiding bolt to be both effective and inexpensive from a sorcery points standpoint.

Sometimes to start the round I opened with a quickened bless (with my PC as one of the targets) followed by an attack roll cantrip such as firebolt (which gets the bless bonus). Clerics normally don't get attack roll cantrips.

At high levels twinned heal can swing an encounter.

[MrStabby]

For people who have played or seen a Divine Soul Sorcerer in play: What spells and metamagics do you take, and what synergies make them so much better than just being a Cleric? I ask not because this question hasn't necessarily been answered in this thread but because I think showing the specific synergies that Divine Soul gets is more beneficial to demonstrating their power than generally saying "Cleric List and metamagics is good".

I mean metamagic is nice, but I think there is a risk that if you see the class as "cleric list but with metamagic" you miss out on a lot of what makes it great.

I would say the trick is that you get the best of both worlds in terms of spell lists. Sorcerer has a hard time picking spells because it needs to cover all eventualities with a very tight allocation. Addition of cleric spells gives a number that will almost always be useful. So instead of worrying about coverage over different damage types or saves you can pick Bless as a spell, for example. You can use this to contribute in every fight and you don't need it to span more broadly. The cleric really brings a good number of spells like spiritual weapon as well that are concentration free barely resisted damage type spells.

The thing that you get over the cleric is the sorcerer spells as well. As you are after specifics I will list the ones that add things that the cleric misses (I omit stuff like mage armour and shield as this is covered by equipment on the cleric).

Sleep (swap out at higher levels)

Misty Step (Clerics get nothing like this - can be a lifesaver)
Phantasmal force (A very flexible illusion spell and cleric list is light on Int saves)
Web (Cleric list for control effects is mainly wisdom based - gives a way to slow down other enemies)

Counterspell (depends on the DM a bit but an awesome spell sometimes)
Fear
Haste (personally not a fan, even for twinned haste, but others like it so I would be remis for not mentioning it)
Fireball
Hypnotic pattern (you probably want one of this or fear - some overlp with cleric spells)
Animate dead (sometimes concentration free servants are good

Polymorph (Clerics get good buffs but this is so flexible it is almost mandatory)
Watery Sphere (another good strenght save spell - useful for shutting down enemy casters in a way a cleric cant)

Animate objects (you also have access to command, which can be painful. Swap out if enemies are resistant to non magic BPS)

Eyebite (feels like something evil clerics should have)
Sunbeam (feels like something good clerics should have)

Reverse Gravity (another effect that clerics dont have access to. t this point a lot of the sorcerer in-combat spells start to creap away from the cleris in power)

--

Wish (why wouldn't you)


OK, so you wouldn't want all of the above spell and you might do some swapping out as you level up but the point is to show that the range that sorcerer spells add to the cleric list and vice versa is significant. Even just one spell from the sorcerer list means you have a physical control option for example. The "why not just play a cleric" question is as much due to the sorcerer spells as metamagic.

That said, there are still a few other tricks from metamagic. Twinned buffs has been mentioned - and whilst good I don't feel it is a huge step change fromwhat you could do with polymorph anyway. Extending long spells is a nice trick but depends on the campaign. There are a few specific interactions that can be good - quicken booming blade and command adds a bit of spice. What I think metamagic does do is add to adaptability. What is the theme of your campaign? What are particularly strong spells in this context? Would theybe better if there were two of them? Things like protect from evil and good is an example of this.

[Arial Black]

I've got three Divine Soul characters on the go in different campaigns right now.

First, a single class Divine Soul sorcerer, protector aasimar in Storm King's Thunder. Started at level 5, and just about to start the final encounter when lockdown started. Took Ritual Caster (wizard) to get loads of non-combat spells without using slots, including find familiar. I usually play melee types, but I'm really happy with her.

Second, for the Waterdeep: Dragon Heist campaign I rolled a half-elven 1st level Hexblade warlock, got to level 5 (bladepact) by the end, and for Dungeon of the Mad Mage I switched to Divine Soul sorcerer, intending to get to War 5/Sor 15 if the campaign goes that long. The idea is that on each of my combat rounds I will use my action to attack twice and my bonus action to cast a spell (using Quickened Spell if needed) or use Maddening Hex, and I have uses for my reaction (shield, counterspell). When I get to War 5/Sor 5 I will also be concentrating on spirit guardians.

Third, I got invited to play a 20th level one-shot, so I went protector aasimar (although In would've chosen Scourge aasimar if it wasn't for something campaign specific) Pal 6/Sor 14, with the same tactics in mind as for my Hexblade above. Can't wait to start that one!

[MaxWilson]

Animate dead (sometimes concentration free servants are good

Nitpick: this actually comes from the cleric list. Regular sorcerers don't have access to Animated Dead.


There are a few specific interactions that can be good - quicken booming blade and command adds a bit of spice.

Nitpick: this is illegal due to the bonus action spell rule (bonus action spell + cantrip, only). You have to do it the other way around, cast Booming Blade then Quickened Command. Not a huge difference except that you can't e.g. Heighten Command.

[Merudo]

Extended Death Ward and Extended Aid let you cast spells before you take a long rest and still have them active the next day.

You can already cast these spells in the last minute of a long rest to have them active for 8 hours after the long rest ended.

[Ganryu]

You can already cast these spells in the last minute of a long rest to have them active for 8 hours after the long rest ended.

... how? They last 8 hours. Long rest lasts 8 hours.

So the minute you wake up you are suddenly unwarded from death.

Casting spells is considered strenuous, so you don't get the benefits of a long rest if you cast during it.

[MrStabby]

Nitpick: this actually comes from the cleric list. Regular sorcerers don't have access to Animated Dead.



Nitpick: this is illegal due to the bonus action spell rule (bonus action spell + cantrip, only). You have to do it the other way around, cast Booming Blade then Quickened Command. Not a huge difference except that you can't e.g. Heighten Command.

Neither really nitpicks! The animate dead spell was in my head from thinking about uses for extend spell and I got muddled and added it in by mistake at the end.

Regarding command and booming blade, it really does make a difference in this case. If you know if the enemy passed or failed at least. If you know that the enemy has failed their save and will therefore be running away (or otherwise use their action) on their next turn you know it is safe to run up to them and hit them with the cantrip. If you have to hit them with the cantrip first it might leave you in melee range of something you really, really dont want to be in melee range of.

[MaxWilson]

Neither really nitpicks! The animate dead spell was in my head from thinking about uses for extend spell and I got muddled and added it in by mistake at the end.

Regarding command and booming blade, it really does make a difference in this case. If you know if the enemy passed or failed at least. If you know that the enemy has failed their save and will therefore be running away (or otherwise use their action) on their next turn you know it is safe to run up to them and hit them with the cantrip. If you have to hit them with the cantrip first it might leave you in melee range of something you really, really dont want to be in melee range of.

Nothing stops you from doing Quickened Command first, then Booming Blade after.

The only real difference vs. (illegal) Command + Quickened Booming Blade is that you have to commit 2 sorcery points to Quickened up front, and can't Twin or Heighten Command.

(You can Twin Booming Blade of course, should you want to.)

[Pex]

quicken booming blade and command adds a bit of spice.

Jaw drop!

However, you have to do Booming Blade then Quicken Command. When you cast a spell as a Bonus Action the Action spell may only be a Cantrip.

[patchyman]

I'm fond of twinning Guiding Bolt and Cure Wounds (the difference in hp between CW and HW is more significant with twinning since the cost to do so is the same. Though I play a style where I don't want people to drop to begin with, so if you prefer to yoyo heal this likely won't matter).

Add to that the DS 1st level special so that you can roll 2d4 if either Guiding Bolt misses and you have a combo that makes the most of your few spell slots during the period that every slot counts.

[Nagog]

It's pretty decent, and solves one of the 3 major problems Sorcerer has, but it's not really enough to bring them up to par with the other full casters. That said, it's the best Sorc subclass because it actually does address that issue rather than wallowing in mediocrity.
Some of the great combos I've heard for Div Sorcs include:

Twinned Guiding Bolt (total of 8d6 spell slots for a single 1st level spell slot, equal damage to being hit with full force Lightning Bolt/Fireball)
Extended Spell is great for the Cleric List, as many of them have duration
Heightened Spell on Zone of Truth, Geas, Planar Binding, Scrying, Harm, and Divine Word are really great

That said, of all the spell lists to allow a Sorcerer Subclass to access, Cleric is probably the worst considering their natures. Many Cleric spells are niche and oddly specific, which for Clerics is offset by preparing spells every day, whereas for Sorcerers they're stuck with their choices. Furthermore, with how few Metamagics a Sorcerer can know at any given time, the likelyhood of a Sorcerer having Extended or Heightened Spells (which pari extremely well with Cleric Spells) over Subtle or Empowered Spells (which pair well with Sorcerer spells) is unlikely.

A far more powerful spell list for Sorcerers to have access to would be the Warlock List. They fill similar roles and they both have Known spells, so Warlock spells are likely to have more mileage built into them than many Clerics spells have even with Metamagic.

Probably the most powerful spell list to give them would be Paladin though. High level Paladin spells available in Tier 2 and 3 rather than strictly 4 could really help the Sorcerer out.

[Merudo]

... how? They last 8 hours. Long rest lasts 8 hours.

So the minute you wake up you are suddenly unwarded from death.

Casting spells is considered strenuous, so you don't get the benefits of a long rest if you cast during it.

You are allowed 1 hour of strenuous activity during the long rest. So unless you are casting spells for 1 hour, you still get the benefits of the rest.

As I said, you are allowed to wake up 1 minute before the end of the long rest, cast a few spells with a long duration, then complete the rest and get all your spell slots back.

[Misterwhisper]

It is strong sure but I think it stands out so much because most other sorcerer options are pretty crappy.

[Ogre Mage]

One point worth noting is that the Divine Soul gives you a bonus cleric spell known at 1st level. That spell can later be switched for a different cleric spell. Given the sorcerer's problem with a major lack of spells known, this is a big perk of the subclass.

[MaxWilson]

You are allowed 1 hour of strenuous activity during the long rest. So unless you are casting spells for 1 hour, you still get the benefits of the rest.

As I said, you are allowed to wake up 1 minute before the end of the long rest, cast a few spells with a long duration, then complete the rest and get all your spell slots back.

A Long Rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity—the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.

It's controversial whether the activity that interrupts a long rest should be read as "(1 hour of walking)... or (casting spells)", or "1 hour of (walking... or casting spells)".

The idea of a solid hour of fighting or casting spells is pretty ridiculous and niche, as well as leading to exploits like "I cast Death Ward 60 seconds before the end of my long rest", so it's clearly the former, but YMMV. Ask your DM.

Just be glad this isn't AD&D where you have to have eight hours of uninterrupted rest before you can even START to re-memorize your spells, which can take 24 hours or more if you've used a lot of them.

[Merudo]

A Long Rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity—the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.

It's controversial whether the activity that interrupts a long rest should be read as "(1 hour of walking)... or (casting spells)", or "1 hour of (walking... or casting spells)".

For what it is worth, Jeremy Crawford tweeted that a long rest can withstand an interruption of up to 1 hour (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/764150520646742016).



The idea of a solid hour of fighting or casting spells is pretty ridiculous and niche, as well as leading to exploits like "I cast Death Ward 60 seconds before the end of my long rest", so it's clearly the former, but YMMV. Ask your DM.


Spending 1 hour casting spells is not ridiculous given that many spells (Find Familiar, Planar Binding, Astral Projection, etc) take 1 hour or more to cast.

[MaxWilson]

Spending 1 hour casting a spell is not ridiculous given that many spells (Find Familiar, Planar Binding, Astral Projection, etc) take 1 hour or more to cast.

But in the middle of a rest? And in order to even consider that as the intended meaning you'd have to apply "1 hour" to the clause in between as well, "1 hour fighting."

Yes, it's possible to have hour-long fights in 5E (In have done it) but I don't believe for a second that 59 minutes of combat is not strenuous and 60 minutes is. On the contrary, even 60 seconds of combat ought to disrupt a rest pretty thoroughly, therefore "(1 hour of walking), (fighting), or (casting spells)" is a more possible interpretation than "1 hour of (walking, fighting, or casting spells)."

But ask your DM. If they deliberately adopt the latter interpretation you'd be crazy not to milk it for everything it's worth including casting spells like Mage Armor and Conjure Elemental right before you get all of your slots back. If your DM is crazy enough to make that part of their universe's physics, you might as well play the hand you're dealt (or find another table because this one is too ridiculous).

(Yes, I am ignoring Crawford's tweets.)

[Ritorix]

Definitely one of my favorites these days. Combining metamagic with the cleric spell list made a lot of new options and ways to think about playing a support character. I've used it to play a purely passive character (lots of buffs - that build is still in my signature block) and to play a more offensive cursing type. And their one glaring weakness - no armor - is easy to mitigate with a dip into cleric or hexblade.

[Klorox]

I think what's crazy is we already have the amazing paladin/sorcerer multiclass.

Now we have a sorcerer subclass that absolutely fits thematically with this multiclass, and it's probably the most powerful sorcerer subclass.

Wow!!

[Klorox]

I think what's crazy is we already have the amazing paladin/sorcerer multiclass.

Now we have a sorcerer subclass that absolutely fits thematically with this multiclass, and it's probably the most powerful sorcerer subclass.

Wow!!

[paladinn]

I think what's crazy is we already have the amazing paladin/sorcerer multiclass.

Now we have a sorcerer subclass that absolutely fits thematically with this multiclass, and it's probably the most powerful sorcerer subclass.

Wow!!

It does work amazingly well. Especially with a level or two of hexblade thrown in :) Eldritch blast and Cha-SADness are worth it. Although, with the Elemental Spell metamagic, you almost don't need EBlast, just Firebolt

[samcifer]

For me, FS is the best sorc sub-class and the one I most enjoy playing. Having access to an entire second spell list (basically) to choose spells from has a lot of appeal and being able to quicken them makes them even better.

I still think back fondly to my sorcadin who was Devotion/FS and he could lay down a fireball, then stride in and do some serious GWM smites that did a lot of damage. Sigh... good times.

[Pex]

But in the middle of a rest? And in order to even consider that as the intended meaning you'd have to apply "1 hour" to the clause in between as well, "1 hour fighting."

Yes, it's possible to have hour-long fights in 5E (In have done it) but I don't believe for a second that 59 minutes of combat is not strenuous and 60 minutes is. On the contrary, even 60 seconds of combat ought to disrupt a rest pretty thoroughly, therefore "(1 hour of walking), (fighting), or (casting spells)" is a more possible interpretation than "1 hour of (walking, fighting, or casting spells)."

But ask your DM. If they deliberately adopt the latter interpretation you'd be crazy not to milk it for everything it's worth including casting spells like Mage Armor and Conjure Elemental right before you get all of your slots back. If your DM is crazy enough to make that part of their universe's physics, you might as well play the hand you're dealt (or find another table because this one is too ridiculous).

(Yes, I am ignoring Crawford's tweets.)

However one interprets it, the idea is the DM can allow for combat encounters to happen at night, players defend themselves, and the players are not screwed over the next day of not getting their stuff back because they didn't long rest by DM arbitrariness of having an encounter interrupt their long rest. It's a generosity to the players while allowing the DM to maintain verisimilitude the world doesn't stop just because the sun goes down. It would be dumb for players to abuse it, just like it's dumb for DMs to never let players long rest with continuous interruptions.

[MaxWilson]

However one interprets it, the idea is the DM can allow for combat encounters to happen at night, players defend themselves, and the players are not screwed over the next day of not getting their stuff back because they didn't long rest by DM arbitrariness of having an encounter interrupt their long rest. It's a generosity to the players while allowing the DM to maintain verisimilitude the world doesn't stop just because the sun goes down. It would be dumb for players to abuse it, just like it's dumb for DMs to never let players long rest with continuous interruptions.

Maybe it's just the Gold Box influence but I expect PCs who are ambushed during a rest to sleep late, i.e. resume resting until they _do_ complete a long rest, instead of just giving up. If you get ambushed at 2 a.m. you sleep in until 10 a.m.

[patchyman]

Maybe it's just the Gold Box influence but I expect PCs who are ambushed during a rest to sleep late, i.e. resume resting until they _do_ complete a long rest, instead of just giving up. If you get ambushed at 2 a.m. you sleep in until 10 a.m.

Not just you. I run it this way as well. Hey, sometimes long rest classes luck out with a day with few fights, and sometimes, getting interrupted at night means choosing between leaving later or not renewing your resources.

It often surprises me that the people who say short rest classes suck are often oblivious to the fact that their rulings benefit long rest classes to the detriment of short rest classes.

[Waazraath]

What surprises me in this thread is that the general consensus I've seen so far on the Sorcerer is that it's major drawback is "too few spells known". Divine Soul doesn't increase spells known (ok, by 1, but Draconic gives you in all but name a permanent mage armor and later also fly, so one 1st level bonus spell known isn't that great). It does greatly increases the spell list. But "having a bad spell list" never was common complaint about the Sorcerer (mabye "less spells than the wizard without good reason", but not "no good spells").

So why the enthousiasm for this subclass? Of course, knowing other spells gives some extra options, the most obvious being extended with non-con 8h buffs like aid and deathward. But that's more a late game thing, with your new metamagics gained at 10. In it's essence, I don't see the subclass repairing sorcerer's flaws, I think it's weak at the lower levels defensively (ac/hp), unles specific building to compensate for that (through race or multiclass, for example), and I think there are plenty strong sorcerer builds available without it (as long as spell choices are in synch with metamagic choices).

[Hytheter]

(ok, by 1, but Draconic gives you in all but name a permanent mage armor and later also fly

I don't think it's fair to consider the Draconic sorcerer's wings permanent Fly; Fly's value is in large part that you can cast it on your allies, potentially the whole party.

[Dork_Forge]

What surprises me in this thread is that the general consensus I've seen so far on the Sorcerer is that it's major drawback is "too few spells known". Divine Soul doesn't increase spells known (ok, by 1, but Draconic gives you in all but name a permanent mage armor and later also fly, so one 1st level bonus spell known isn't that great). It does greatly increases the spell list. But "having a bad spell list" never was common complaint about the Sorcerer (mabye "less spells than the wizard without good reason", but not "no good spells").

So why the enthousiasm for this subclass? Of course, knowing other spells gives some extra options, the most obvious being extended with non-con 8h buffs like aid and deathward. But that's more a late game thing, with your new metamagics gained at 10. In it's essence, I don't see the subclass repairing sorcerer's flaws, I think it's weak at the lower levels defensively (ac/hp), unles specific building to compensate for that (through race or multiclass, for example), and I think there are plenty strong sorcerer builds available without it (as long as spell choices are in synch with metamagic choices).

You do only get the one spell, but it's a spell that explicitly has to be a Cleric spell, so it inherently helps with what the Divine Soul is trying to achieve. That said I don't think extending buffs is a late game thing either, you can get Aid at the same level you get access to Metamagic to begin with and if you're playing a support character, making spells last longer is saving you slots overall (not to mention reducing your own squishiness if you are one of the Aided creatures).

Personally I like it not just because mixing the Sorcerer and Cleric list gives you some potent options with Metamagic (Guiding Bolt makes and Blasting Spell you were going to take early on as a Sorc mostly redundant), but becuase Favored by the Gods is a great ability on its own and adds a short rest resource to the otherwise long rest Sorcerer.

That said I don't think you need to be a Divine Soul to have a good Sorc build, or even to multiclass, I've been plenty effective (and had oodles of fun) playing a Draconic ice mage.


I don't think it's fair to consider the Draconic sorcerer's wings permanent Fly; Fly's value is in large part that you can cast it on your allies, potentially the whole party.

I agree that they're not equivalent, Fly gives no visual indication you can fly until you actually take off and gives you a superior speed, the Wings don't take a slot or concentration. They both allow you to fly, but they're both achieving it in entirely different ways with different pros and cons.

[MrStabby]

What surprises me in this thread is that the general consensus I've seen so far on the Sorcerer is that it's major drawback is "too few spells known". Divine Soul doesn't increase spells known (ok, by 1, but Draconic gives you in all but name a permanent mage armor and later also fly, so one 1st level bonus spell known isn't that great). It does greatly increases the spell list. But "having a bad spell list" never was common complaint about the Sorcerer (mabye "less spells than the wizard without good reason", but not "no good spells").

So why the enthousiasm for this subclass? Of course, knowing other spells gives some extra options, the most obvious being extended with non-con 8h buffs like aid and deathward. But that's more a late game thing, with your new metamagics gained at 10. In it's essence, I don't see the subclass repairing sorcerer's flaws, I think it's weak at the lower levels defensively (ac/hp), unles specific building to compensate for that (through race or multiclass, for example), and I think there are plenty strong sorcerer builds available without it (as long as spell choices are in synch with metamagic choices).

I think that one of the big things is that you get access to more spells that are generally useful. So with the sorcerer you might have to chose between a spell that is good vs single big enemies, or hordes... do you chose something to help fight spellcasters or tough armour plated knights. As a divine sould you can just pick up bless and know itcovers pretty much everything.

How do you pick a damage type for your spells? So fire does great damage, but is widely resisted - so you need a backup - but then to split each of these single target vs multiple as well? Clerics get options like spiritual weapon that you can pretty much rely on not being resisted.

Sure it gets congested, but a lot of the cleric spells, especially the low level ones, go a long way to covering multiple bases. The higher level ones are a bit niche though, but then the sorcerer list can cover this - if it couldn't you would just be playing a cleric anyway.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

What surprises me in this thread is that the general consensus I've seen so far on the Sorcerer is that it's major drawback is "too few spells known". Divine Soul doesn't increase spells known (ok, by 1, but Draconic gives you in all but name a permanent mage armor and later also fly, so one 1st level bonus spell known isn't that great). It does greatly increases the spell list. But "having a bad spell list" never was common complaint about the Sorcerer (mabye "less spells than the wizard without good reason", but not "no good spells").

So why the enthousiasm for this subclass? Of course, knowing other spells gives some extra options, the most obvious being extended with non-con 8h buffs like aid and deathward. But that's more a late game thing, with your new metamagics gained at 10. In it's essence, I don't see the subclass repairing sorcerer's flaws, I think it's weak at the lower levels defensively (ac/hp), unles specific building to compensate for that (through race or multiclass, for example), and I think there are plenty strong sorcerer builds available without it (as long as spell choices are in synch with metamagic choices).
You've done a great job here of re-framing my original post and I largely agree. There seems to be some interesting (mis)conceptions out there along the lines of there being one specific way of playing a sorcerer, and perceived weaknesses. Some of these may be due to play or DM styles, but I'm not sure. As a simple example a mid level Draconic Fire Sorcerer can cast Empowered Fireballs (1sp) that are roughly 40% more impactful than other casters. Despite the relative power of this spell and the frequency with which this sub-class can use this ability due to the low cost, there seems to be very little support for this sort of blaster sorcerer. Combine that with the extra hp and the other features you mention the Dragon has a lot going for it. As do Clerics, but maybe I just like tankier characters than other posters.

[MrStabby]

You've done a great job here of re-framing my original post and I largely agree. There seems to be some interesting (mis)conceptions out there along the lines of there being one specific way of playing a sorcerer, and perceived weaknesses. Some of these may be due to play or DM styles, but I'm not sure. As a simple example a mid level Draconic Fire Sorcerer can cast Empowered Fireballs (1sp) that are roughly 40% more impactful than other casters. Despite the relative power of this spell and the frequency with which this sub-class can use this ability due to the low cost, there seems to be very little support for this sort of blaster sorcerer. Combine that with the extra hp and the other features you mention the Dragon has a lot going for it. As do Clerics, but maybe I just like tankier characters than other posters.

I think this really comes down to the campaign. If you are playing a short affair at levels six and seven then this kind of feature is really powerful and it will make for a character that is probably a lot of fun. Sure you still have the debate about if itwould be better to play an evoker, but lets say you also want to be the face of the party.

Now imagine this same cmapaign goes onlonger than expected. You are now level 16 fighting the demons of hell. Your fireball extra damage is not really so significant now, even against enemies that take full damage from it. You can swap out the spell but not the sub-class. And at level 16 your allies swinging +3 swords about are still going to outshine you at damage, the thing your subclass gives you.

Draconic sorcerer is very good at some levels in some games, but if you are playing at a different level then they can kind of suck a bit. That said, I loved my white dragon sorcererfor quite some time.

[MrCharlie]

What surprises me in this thread is that the general consensus I've seen so far on the Sorcerer is that it's major drawback is "too few spells known". Divine Soul doesn't increase spells known (ok, by 1, but Draconic gives you in all but name a permanent mage armor and later also fly, so one 1st level bonus spell known isn't that great). It does greatly increases the spell list. But "having a bad spell list" never was common complaint about the Sorcerer (mabye "less spells than the wizard without good reason", but not "no good spells").

So why the enthousiasm for this subclass? Of course, knowing other spells gives some extra options, the most obvious being extended with non-con 8h buffs like aid and deathward. But that's more a late game thing, with your new metamagics gained at 10. In it's essence, I don't see the subclass repairing sorcerer's flaws, I think it's weak at the lower levels defensively (ac/hp), unles specific building to compensate for that (through race or multiclass, for example), and I think there are plenty strong sorcerer builds available without it (as long as spell choices are in synch with metamagic choices).
The real reason blaster sorcerer's are awful is that evocation wizard does it better, not because sorcerer blasting is strictly speaking bad. And can also support cast.

What divine soul does it give you another thing to do with sorcerers that's strictly speaking better than other classes-in addition to twinning things, quickening things, subtle spelling things, they can extend 8 hour buffs.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

[QUOTE=MrCharlie;24654527]The real reason blaster sorcerer's are awful is that evocation wizard does it better, not because sorcerer blasting is strictly speaking bad. And can also support cast.
I think that's a debatable point. After 10th level the evoker gets the damage bonus, but by then the sorcerer has had the damage bonus for 4 levels and can quicken and empower a spell and twin a cantrip (both spells with damage bonus). Admitedly Elemental Adept is pretty much a feat tax for Draconic Sorcerers, but once you take it there are very few creatures with outright immunity so problem solved.
And, yes the sorcerer can still support cast with the same 1 concentration spell as anyone else.

What divine soul does it give you another thing to do with sorcerers that's strictly speaking better than other classes-in addition to twinning things, quickening things, subtle spelling things, they can extend 8 hour buffs.[/QUOTE

[Klorox]

I never viewed the sorcerers list as particularly restrictive, but what makes the divine soul great is it just gives you so many more options to choose from.

[MrCharlie]

[QUOTE=5eNeedsDarksun;24654546]T
I think that's a debatable point. After 10th level the evoker gets the damage bonus, but by then the sorcerer has had the damage bonus for 4 levels and can quicken and empower a spell and twin a cantrip (both spells with damage bonus). Admitedly Elemental Adept is pretty much a feat tax for Draconic Sorcerers, but once you take it there are very few creatures with outright immunity so problem solved.
And, yes the sorcerer can still support cast with the same 1 concentration spell as anyone else.
[QUOTE]
Support casters aren't really about concentration; I mean support in terms of dispelling bad effects, removing curses, identifying magic items, giving water breathing and other rituals, using teleport spells to get past gaps, scrying on enemies, teleporting the party, stuff like that.

Sorcerer's have some limited ability to do some of that, but they inevitably end up worse at it than wizards and clerics. Too few spells known for that kind of thing.

In combat, wizards do have more misc. spell options, but most concentration spells boil down "disable X" or "Do Y damage repeating" or "Buff Z". Sorcerer's are actually better than Wizards at most of those-arguably all of them, depending on build-and concentration is the one Sorcerer strength. Hell, sorcerer's arguably have more than one concentration because of twinned spell.

The real problem with blasting sorcerer's is the lack of sculted spell, not damage-AOE damage is generally pretty impressive regardless, but hitting allies with it is one of the leading causes of actual TPKs.

[SLOTHRPG95]

The real problem with blasting sorcerer's is the lack of sculted spell, not damage-AOE damage is generally pretty impressive regardless, but hitting allies with it is one of the leading causes of actual TPKs.

And hence there's the Careful Spell metamagic, which I'd recommend any serious blaster Sorcerer pick. Not only does it help your friends resist your Fireball, but it makes them flat-out immune to friendly-fire Web, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Stinking Cloud, or what have you. It's not identical to Sculpt Spell, and generally it's less useful specifically for damaging AoEs, but it's not like the two aren't somewhat comparable if all you're trying to do is avoid self-TPK.

To OP: it's a good subclass, for many of the reasons listed upthread, and I find it to be one of the best buffers in the game. With that said, I don't think it's actually out of line compared to Draconic or Shadow Sorcerers. They have their own goodies that make them worthwhile.

[Waazraath]

You've done a great job here of re-framing my original post and I largely agree. There seems to be some interesting (mis)conceptions out there along the lines of there being one specific way of playing a sorcerer, and perceived weaknesses. Some of these may be due to play or DM styles, but I'm not sure. As a simple example a mid level Draconic Fire Sorcerer can cast Empowered Fireballs (1sp) that are roughly 40% more impactful than other casters. Despite the relative power of this spell and the frequency with which this sub-class can use this ability due to the low cost, there seems to be very little support for this sort of blaster sorcerer. Combine that with the extra hp and the other features you mention the Dragon has a lot going for it. As do Clerics, but maybe I just like tankier characters than other posters.

Lol, wasn't intentional; I read the thread some time ago and replied from memory without reading it again. Anyway, yeah, I think the Sorcerer subclasses are pretty evenly matched. Draconic has some good defensive features, increases blasting damage, and wings for utility, shadow has the 'see through magical darkness' shtick and the hound (at the very least effectively heightened metamagic known as an extra), and Divine Soul... has been discussed enough I guess. Storm & wild are a bit worse off compared to these in my book, but I wouldn't say divine is per se better than the others.


Now imagine this same cmapaign goes onlonger than expected. You are now level 16 fighting the demons of hell. Your fireball extra damage is not really so significant now, even against enemies that take full damage from it. You can swap out the spell but not the sub-class. And at level 16 your allies swinging +3 swords about are still going to outshine you at damage, the thing your subclass gives you.


But when you're fighting the demons from hell, you're happy with the fire resistance the Draconic subclass gives you with the same feature?


I don't think it's fair to consider the Draconic sorcerer's wings permanent Fly; Fly's value is in large part that you can cast it on your allies, potentially the whole party.

True, but then again, wings don't take slots to cast, and are permanent instead of 1 min/lvl. So in my book, it more or less evens out (depending of course on the campaign, having to maneuver through lots of 5 ft tunnels where you can't stretch your wings or the like does alter the balance of course).

[MaxWilson]

What surprises me in this thread is that the general consensus I've seen so far on the Sorcerer is that it's major drawback is "too few spells known". Divine Soul doesn't increase spells known (ok, by 1, but Draconic gives you in all but name a permanent mage armor and later also fly, so one 1st level bonus spell known isn't that great). It does greatly increases the spell list. But "having a bad spell list" never was common complaint about the Sorcerer (mabye "less spells than the wizard without good reason", but not "no good spells").

So why the enthousiasm for this subclass? Of course, knowing other spells gives some extra options, the most obvious being extended with non-con 8h buffs like aid and deathward. But that's more a late game thing, with your new metamagics gained at 10. In it's essence, I don't see the subclass repairing sorcerer's flaws, I think it's weak at the lower levels defensively (ac/hp), unles specific building to compensate for that (through race or multiclass, for example), and I think there are plenty strong sorcerer builds available without it (as long as spell choices are in synch with metamagic choices).

There's no consensus on what is wrong with the sorcerer. "Not enough spells" is one school of thought, but so are "metamagic not good/unique enough" and "the spell list is a poor man's subset of the wizard's".

It's not an uncommon opinion that the sorcerer would be improved significantly if it had access to all wizard spells. Divine Soul instead gives it access to all cleric spells, but either way it shouldn't surprise you that access to more of the best spells (Bless, Spiritual Weapon, Holy Aura, Symbol, etc.) can help compensate for weakness in other areas (number of spells known).

You may not like the answer but that's the answer.

BTW, low AC is easily fixed via e.g. Hexblade armor and shield + Shield.



True, but then again, wings don't take slots to cast, and are permanent instead of 1 min/lvl. So in my book, it more or less evens out (depending of course on the campaign, having to maneuver through lots of 5 ft tunnels where you can't stretch your wings or the like does alter the balance of course).

Yep, wings are nice, and Draconic and Divine Soul both get them.

[Waazraath]

There's no consensus on what is wrong with the sorcerer. "Not enough spells" is one school of thought, but so are "metamagic not good/unique enough" and "the spell list is a poor man's subset of the wizard's".

It's not an uncommon opinion that the sorcerer would be improved significantly if it had access to all wizard spells. Divine Soul instead gives it access to all cleric spells, but either way it shouldn't surprise you that access to more of the best spells (Bless, Spiritual Weapon, Holy Aura, Symbol, etc.) can help compensate for weakness in other areas (number of spells known).

You may not like the answer but that's the answer.

Maybe, but from what I've read "not enough spells" is by far the biggest offender. "Metamagic not good enough", I don't think I'v ever seen anybody argue that. As for the spell list that is a poor subset of the wizards: I know the argument, but correct me if I'm wrong, the problem there is not that there aren't enough good spells left on the sor list, but that there isn't a justification for having a weaker spell list (also compared with e.g. 3.x). So no, more spells known hardly compensate weaknesses in other areas because you already have loads and loads of other good spells that you can choose, but which you can't due to few spells known. It mostly gives you the opportunity to build another type of sorcerer that wasn't possible before (more versatility between builds), but doesn't gives you much more versatility within a build. Though on the other hand, just picking bless and healing word gives decent buffing/healing power on its own, so I see the argument. But given the title "really that good?", I'd still say, no, good enough, like several other subclasses.

It's not that I don't "like" the answer (I really don't care), but I do find it lacking in persuasiveness.


BTW, low AC is easily fixed via e.g. Hexblade armor and shield + Shield.

Obviously, but that's using variant rules, and "this can be fixed with multiclassing" isn't really anything but a confirmation that there is something that needs to be fixed (which is my point, not that it is unfixable).


edit: good catch about the wings, still means that Draconic and Divine get the same number of extra spells though.

[MaxWilson]

Maybe, but from what I've read "not enough spells" is by far the biggest offender...

It's not that I don't "like" the answer (I really don't care), but I do find it lacking in persuasiveness.

It's supposed to be explanatory, not persuasive.

Let's say there's 100 people, 50 of whom think the sorc is fine and enjoy all sorc subclasses evenly. Of the other 50 who think it's weak, suppose 30 of them would change their minds and like it if it had as many spells known as the bard, and 20 of them would change their minds and like it fine if it had a better spell list. Those 20, plus a fair share of the original 50, are your Divine Soul constituency.

You seem to be part of the original 50, and for you Divine Soul is a solution in search of a problem. You're not the target audience.

P.S. For "metamagic not good enough," just search forum threads on proposed fixes for sorcs. It's one of the common complaints/suggested fixes.


As for the spell list that is a poor subset of the wizards: I know the argument, but correct me if I'm wrong, the problem there is not that there aren't enough good spells left on the sor list, but that there isn't a justification for having a weaker spell list (also compared with e.g. 3.x).

I don't understand the distinction you're trying to draw here. The complaint is about missing out on many of the best spells. The Divine Soul gets access to a different subset of the best spells than the wizard (Holy Aura vs. True Polymorph) but it's still providing access to excellent spells which are better than what sorc would otherwise be stuck with for those spell levels, and which can sometimes be used to free up spells known (e.g. taking Bless instead of multiple, redundant blasting spells saves spells known).

So yeah, the complaint is about the sorc spell list. Not sure what you thought the complaint was about but it's really about that.

[Waazraath]

It's supposed to be explanatory, not persuasive.

Let's say there's 100 people, 50 of whom think the sorc is fine and enjoy all sorc subclasses evenly. Of the other 50 who think it's weak, suppose 30 of them would change their minds and like it if it had as many spells known as the bard, and 20 of them would change their minds and like it fine if it had a better spell list. Those 20, plus a fair share of the original 50, are your Divine Soul constituency.

You seem to be part of the original 50, and for you Divine Soul is a solution in search of a problem. You're not the target audience.

In that case I found it neither persuasive nor explanatory ;-) But this one is, fair enough. Though you do seem to misunderstand me a bit stil: I'm fine with the Divine Soul, since it adds a concept (sorcerer with power from the heavens, instead of power from dragons or the feywild). I can see myself playing one, one day. My responses are to the topic of the thread, is it that good (wich I read as "that good", better than other subclasses). And on that, I'd say "nope". This is about difference in power (and not in personal preferences).

[Unoriginal]

From a thematic standpoint, being an half-god is pretty fun.

Yes I know not all (or even most) the Divine Soul Sorcerers are half-deities. Doesn't remove the fun for those who are.

[MrStabby]

But when you're fighting the demons from hell, you're happy with the fire resistance the Draconic subclass gives you with the same feature?


Well obviously it doesn't hurt - but the only demon (I think) that does fire damage is the Balor which will also be doing physical and lightning damage. I wouldn't say it is a particularly useful ability under these circumstances.

[Unoriginal]

Well obviously it doesn't hurt - but the only demon (I think) that does fire damage is the Balor which will also be doing physical and lightning damage. I wouldn't say it is a particularly useful ability under these circumstances.

Devils use fire more, as far as I know.

[MrStabby]

Devils use fire more, as far as I know.

In the MM, Pit Fiend, Barbed Devil and horned devil. Used more, but still not that common - I think poison is more common.

[MrCharlie]

And hence there's the Careful Spell metamagic, which I'd recommend any serious blaster Sorcerer pick. Not only does it help your friends resist your Fireball, but it makes them flat-out immune to friendly-fire Web, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Stinking Cloud, or what have you. It's not identical to Sculpt Spell, and generally it's less useful specifically for damaging AoEs, but it's not like the two aren't somewhat comparable if all you're trying to do is avoid self-TPK.

And then you've managed to match a wizard, except you use a limited resource and, again, can't do utility spells. If you just want to blast then this + empowered spell are your metamagic until level 10-and while you enjoy a few levels of higher damage from your fireballs on the way there, but then your edge is gone.

I do agree that sculpted spell to auto-save against non-evocation disabling AOE is the best use of it, and the fact that it has utility as both damage avoidance and disable avoidance is good, but you're fighting uphill-and besides, you can use sculpted spell for that even without a blasting sub-class, hence why I still find draconic wholly underwhelming and blasting to be something at which the sorcerer is inferior to the wizard.

[SLOTHRPG95]

And then you've managed to match a wizard, except you use a limited resource and, again, can't do utility spells. If you just want to blast then this + empowered spell are your metamagic until level 10-and while you enjoy a few levels of higher damage from your fireballs on the way there, but then your edge is gone.

I do agree that sculpted spell to auto-save against non-evocation disabling AOE is the best use of it, and the fact that it has utility as both damage avoidance and disable avoidance is good, but you're fighting uphill-and besides, you can use sculpted spell for that even without a blasting sub-class, hence why I still find draconic wholly underwhelming and blasting to be something at which the sorcerer is inferior to the wizard.

Limited resource, vs. applications outside of blasting. I think that's a fair tradeoff for Careful vs. Sculpt. Meanwhile, I don't think level 10 is when the Wizard blaster edges out the Sorcerer. Empowered Evocation is element-agnostic, but there are enough good damaging spells for three out of the five elements for a Draconic Sorcerer of said element to not care as long as they have Elemental Adept and Empowered Spell. Empowering a Fireball/Lightning Bolt/Cone of Cold costs very little to a 10th+ level Sorcerer beyond the spell slot itself, and need only be done if you roll poorly. Evokers don't catch up (and vault over) Draconic Sorcerer blasters until they get access to Simulacrum, and even that has nothing to do with their class or subclass, and everything to do with it being a cheesy spell. But this is getting off-topic from the main point of the thread, so if you'd like the consider the conversation I'd suggest starting a new one.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

And then you've managed to match a wizard, except you use a limited resource and, again, can't do utility spells. If you just want to blast then this + empowered spell are your metamagic until level 10-and while you enjoy a few levels of higher damage from your fireballs on the way there, but then your edge is gone.

I do agree that sculpted spell to auto-save against non-evocation disabling AOE is the best use of it, and the fact that it has utility as both damage avoidance and disable avoidance is good, but you're fighting uphill-and besides, you can use sculpted spell for that even without a blasting sub-class, hence why I still find draconic wholly underwhelming and blasting to be something at which the sorcerer is inferior to the wizard.

Maybe this comes down to play/ DM styles or party makeup (whether or not the party is particularly stealthy and/or wants to fight at range or close quickly). In our games I generally haven't missed Careful/Sculpted and our casters are usually able to get a round or 2 of AOE on some or all of the baddies without this being an issue. Also, there are other options, such as Shield Master for a character who wants to improve their odds of surviving AOE. Quickened for me seems to provide the most utility on top of Empowered.

[Quietus]

Maybe this comes down to play/ DM styles or party makeup (whether or not the party is particularly stealthy and/or wants to fight at range or close quickly). In our games I generally haven't missed Careful/Sculpted and our casters are usually able to get a round or 2 of AOE on some or all of the baddies without this being an issue. Also, there are other options, such as Shield Master for a character who wants to improve their odds of surviving AOE. Quickened for me seems to provide the most utility on top of Empowered.

Quicken + Empower is the nova method, and it absolutely works well. The thing to consider is that if you're in a party with a rogue, or a high level ranger, or someone using shield master - then careful spell is no different from sculpt spell, for dex saves. Situational, sure, but it's an option available to you.

Your metamagic reflects the options available to you, and your particular playstyle. Someone using occasional AoE control spells that can hit allies? Careful is the way to go. Someone who just wants to burn out their resources to make everything in that direction dead right now? Quicken/Empower for sure. But if I'm in a party with a group of allies who could make it so I could drop friendly fire, and who will avoid that damage if they pass the save, Careful is at the top of my wish list.

[Sol0botmate]

So why the enthousiasm for this subclass?

Because at some point even on Wizard you have only prepared spells that are generally useful. At some point you just use best general spells and prepare just best overall spells.

Quality if spells>number of spells. I never felt bad on Sorc for knowing few spells, if my spell list was well balanced. For example at level 3 spells I had Counterspell, Haste, Fireball and Spirit Guardians. Is that a small amount of 3rd level spells known? Yes. But did I need more? No. I had blast when it was good, I had SG when blast was not good, I had best buff in game for my melee team mates (Twin Haste for the win) and Counterspell for dealing with enemy casters. All I needed from level 3 spells.

The point is that in RPG there are always BEST/GENERALLY BEST TO HAVE spells. There is always a meta. With Sorc you just have to go for meta. But that doesn't mean that's a bad thing. It might be more boring but if someone cares only for maximum spell list efficiency - then there is no issue.

[Merudo]

I never felt bad on Sorc for knowing few spells, if my spell list was well balanced. For example at level 3 spells I had Counterspell, Haste, Fireball and Spirit Guardians. Is that a small amount of 3rd level spells known? Yes. But did I need more? No. I had blast when it was good, I had SG when blast was not good, I had best buff in game for my melee team mates (Twin Haste for the win) and Counterspell for dealing with enemy casters. All I needed from level 3 spells.


Sorcerers can't afford 4 spells per level. Doing so would require 4*9 = 36 spells known, and a level 20 Divine Sorcerer only knows 16.

If you spent 4 spells on level 3 the rest of your spell list will suffer.

[Waazraath]

Sorcerers can't afford 4 spells per level. Doing so would require 4*9 = 36 spells known, and a level 20 Divine Sorcerer only knows 16.

If you spent 4 spells on level 3 the rest of your spell list will suffer.

This. You have 2, 3 choices at most for each spell level, without loosing out on other spell levels. And with Fireball, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Haste, Major Image (especially with Subtle!), Fly, Hypnotic Pattern, and some others contending for the level 3 spells known, having even more very great spells to choose from has a decreasing added value. You get more different kind of sorceres (more combinations of good spells possible), but it doesn't make one specific sorcerer more powerful (since she still knows 2 or 3 good 3rd level spells).