non-epic epic feats

[kemmotar]

I was skimming through the epic level handbook and found a few feats that although listed as [epic] do not require epic levels to acquire. Take for example infinite deflection. The prerequisites are dex 25, deflect arrows, combat reflexes and improved unarmed strike. Now, improved unarmed strike is a prerequisite for deflect arrows so that's kinda a moot point...a second level monk has unarmed strike and deflect arrows(assuming you choose the latter as your bonus feat. Combat reflexes is no challenge either since it can be taken as your first level feat. Now a monk with 18 base dex and +4 or +6 dexterity race can easilly get 25 dex with magic items...and just for argument's sake infinite deflection means you can deflect arrows as many times as you like...as per the name, infinite deflections...not bad actually...

Other feats obtainable at non-epic levels yet listed as epic are(the ones i have found...might've missed some):
-lingering damage
-keen strike
-instant reload(which is mentioned in the non-epic feats list of the handbook as well)
-master staff
-master wand
-legendary wrestler
-mighty rage
-negative energy burst
-overwhelming critical
-multicasting
-multiwaepon rend
-penetrate damage reduction(which does not even have prerequisites)
-perfect health
-perfect multiweapon fighting
-permanent emanation
-planar turning
-perfect two weapon fighting
-polyglot(learn all languages if you know five...don't go wasting your skill points:smallwink: )
-positive energy aura
-ranged inspiration

well anyway...the list is longer than i thought so i won't bother anymore..but you get the point...What's the point of listing a feat as epic if you don't need to be epic...The introduction to the feat section says that a character gains epic feats at the 21st level and every three levels thereafter and according to the class bonus feats...however this is simply explaining when epic characters gain feats and does not pose a prerequisite for the acquisition of said feats. Some feats have skill requirements of 30 ranks making it clearly a must be epic level to attain feat. But many don't...I realise this is a 3rd edition book but can still be used in 3.5 if allowed by the DM...

Ok, i won't bore you anymore with my rantings...what does everybody else think?Right,wrong, worth it, not worth it?

[Fax Celestis]

Any feat with the [Epic] descriptor requires you to be of ECL 21 to take it. Sorry.

[kemmotar]

Well...might've been interesting..at least i tried:smallbiggrin:

Though the book isn't really clear about it is? If it really was only for epic chars, wouldn't it have the level 21 in its prerequisites?I've seen it before in a few books and wizards never had a problem with repeating prerequisites in similar feats so i would think they would have included it...

[brian c]

Well...might've been interesting..at least i tried:smallbiggrin:

Though the book isn't really clear about it is? If it really was only for epic chars, wouldn't it have the level 21 in its prerequisites?I've seen it before in a few books and wizards never had a problem with repeating prerequisites in similar feats so i would think they would have included it...

Eh, they didn't want to repeat the same exact pre-req for every single feat in the book.

[cupkeyk]

ACQUIRING EPIC FEATS

Characters gain epic feats in the following ways:

At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat.

Each character class gains bonus epic feats according to the class description. These feats must be selected from the list of bonus epic feats for that class.

Not exactly unclear. At 21 and every third level afterwards and at your class's progression.

[Nonah_Me]

If you're a 10th level rogue 10th level monk you won't have a Class that is above 21st... so I think that designation is for epic classes, such as a 21st level fighter, wizard, etc.

However, the [epic] designation is tied to Character Level, not class level. Right?

Edit: I think I just had my first ninja-ed. Are you supposed to feel hollow?

[Magnor Criol]

You should also note, if you happen to have access to Complete Adventurer, that they have a section at the end regarding epic-level characters. (It may be in some of the other Completes; I'm not sure. I've only looked in detail through Adventurer, yet.) Though it's just an appendix and thus nowhere near the detail and length of the 3e Epic Level Handbook, the material that is in there is updated to 3.5 level. Minor changes, yes, but it's kosher with legalistic DMs, and it's clearer on this subject. Meaning, it directly spells out in the opening paragraph of the section on epic feats that they're available only to "characters of at least 21st level."