fixing the Martial FAntasy

[kazaryu]

So, recently there have been several threads about the imbalance between martials and mages. a fairly common theme within those threads is that martials are unfairly held to 'realistic' standards, while mages aren't. i.e. martials are treated as though they can only be as good/strong/powerful, as real people we see in teh real world, whereas mages don't have the limitation. This got me thinking, trying to come up with ways to make martials feel the way they (IMO) should. ways to elevate their fantasy. so...i've tried to think of things to give them that might accomplish this goal.

the first idea: and one that i actually saw suggested by someone else...im not 100% sure, sorry. is to let them actually damage force constructs. and i like it. so something like 'bludgeoning damage you deal treats constructs of force as having 15 AC and 150HP per 5'square.

and an original idea: bludgeoning, piercing, slashing damage you deal is treated as magical for the purposes of overcoming damage resistance when dealt to a creature whos CR is at most half your (class) level.

neither of these are particularly *huge* abilities. i don't imagine constructs of force come up anywhere near often enough for the first ability to be super ubiquitous. and frankly, by the time you get to a high enough level for the second ability to matter, you've probably already acquired a magic weapon. However, they both still play really strongly into the fantasy that you're a near mythical warrior.

what i'd like from y'all is some more ideas. Don't worry too much about balance, its the core of the idea thats important. for example: the force construct idea, might have too small of numbers. but the idea that a martial character could eventaully break down a wall of force, thats teh important idea. On the other hand, they don't have to be near useless mechanically either (as the second one is). im just looking for things that you'd expect mythical warrior like Beowulf to be able to accomplish, but currently would tend to get denied in current DnD

edit: there seems to be a bit of confusion about what im looking for, which is fair enough, i probably wasn't super clear. But let me try to clear up exactly what the issue im trying to address is.
Ok, so, its fairly universally accepted that mechanically casters start to pull ahead of martials in terms of their ability to impact the game world when you start getting to higher levels. There some contention about why this is, and there's some contention about the extent to which this occurs, but i'd wager that its something that most people accept to be true. This thread isn't meant to be addressing that .

From my perspective there's a different issue, one of mindset and perspective. DnD at its core is meant to be about mythic heroes. People that are explicitly superhuman in effect, even without being superhuman in nature. Think like...the 'mundane' superheroes (i.e. hawkeye, black widow, iron man, batman, etc.) And yet too often (IMO) the Martials are limited to things that are deemed 'realistic'. Personally, i believe this is due to a bias that we have. 'mundane' people, we know their limits. and superficially classes like the 'fighter' appear to be essentially elite forms of warriors that we knew existed irl. Meanwhile, casters/magic don't have this problem, we don't have real, concrete examples of their limitations. as a result, its accepted that caster's can do things that the players can't.

A game design thing that contributes to this (again, IMO) is that caster's have explicit lists of superhuman things that they can do. its fairly comprehensive, and it is well beyond what any human can accomplish easily. Martials, on the other hand, lack this. With a few minor exceptions (i.e. being able to fire 8 accurate arrows over a 4 second period), their are almost no explicit examples of things that martials can do that break the mold. Its left almost entirely up to the table/DM. Now, im not going to call this a game design flaw, because its probable that they did this deliberately to leave skills more open ended, and allow DM's more freedom. Fair enough. But it does still contribute to the aforementioned 'problem'.

Now, you can freely discuss my opinion, thats fine. However, the reason I created this thread was to get ideas for abilities that i can give martials that explicitly show 'my character isn't just a gymbro/Hema enthusiast. he's Achilles in the making'.

Edit 2: gonna make a list of things people have already contributed
-ignoring damage resistance of weaker enemies
-breaking force constructs
-Dramatically increasing the range of ranged attacks, e.g. longbow sniping from a mile away.
-Allow grappling with any creature, regardless of size (suplex that dragon!).
-Instakill certain enemies on a hit, no damage roll needed (maybe if their HP < your level).
-Cleaving attacks (this is already an optional rule in the DMG, use it!), i.e. overflow damage spills over to another enemy in range.
-Monster has to make a CON save when you crit, or they just straight up die, no damage roll needed.
-The ability to wield oversized weapons without penalty.
-The ability to shove with a weapon attack (i.e. you use one attack to both damage and shove).
-Shoving creatures much farther away, e.g. up to 30 feet away if you really want to throw them far.
-More abilities like Second Wind or Uncanny Dodge that make you more resilient.
-Extra bonus actions or reactions.
-They jump high enough to punch Godzilla sized baddies
-Run up walls or water
-If falling they can just grab a wall to stop themselves or run across falling rubble to get to safety
-If they use weapons they can parry things that are unparryable.
-martials seem to always just "know" when someone is approaching and danger lurks nearby
-The fighting spirit, determination, spiritual energy, or the indomitable will just don't find their way into the rules sadly. Martials tend to be able to push past the physical human limits consistently through their training and battle experience, an association with pain that goes well beyond what is normal, even using it to break illusions they are trapped in
-Barbarians should break attributes
-Fighters should break the action economy in all pillars.
-maybe give martials resistance to force damage and shift some damage sources to force
-Melee types should be able to smash through solid stone, hurl boulders at enemies/to damage far away targets/to build bridges like Finn McCool or just affect the environment in some way
-Those with a high Constitution essentially don't need food, water, sleep or maybe even oxygen for long periods of time
-Ranged types should be capable of using their eyes to see well over what is accepted as the human limit,
-Observant types being able to essentially read someone so well they might as well be telepathic for example, such as taking a casual glance at someone and figuring out their probable occupation, marital status, childhood and skillset (really that whole paragraph)
-Charismatic types should be able to essentially talk an entire country into giving this one stranger all of their treasure, be able to essentially insert themselves into someone's backstory by being so believable that the person they're talking to are sure "Yeah, I've always know this person..."
-Being able to hide themselves really well, such as becoming someone half your weight/height or some such. (provisionally, i wouldn't want it to be a literal transoformation. but being *that good* at disguising yourself is fine
-The ability to be able to terrify someone into deciding, "No, I'm not fighting this person" through paralysis or being frightened to death. (again, provisionally.)

[Greywander]

I have no idea about force constructs, that sounds like a suspiciously specific ability that would never come up in a lot of campaigns.

I think a better direction would be to amp up their "mundaneness" to superhuman levels. Maybe not quite Superman level, but at least Batman level, and probably somewhere between the two.


Some examples I can think of:
Dramatically increasing the range of ranged attacks, e.g. longbow sniping from a mile away.
Allow grappling with any creature, regardless of size (suplex that dragon!).
Instakill certain enemies on a hit, no damage roll needed (maybe if their HP < your level).
Cleaving attacks (this is already an optional rule in the DMG, use it!), i.e. overflow damage spills over to another enemy in range.
Monster has to make a CON save when you crit, or they just straight up die, no damage roll needed.
The ability to wield oversized weapons without penalty.
The ability to shove with a weapon attack (i.e. you use one attack to both damage and shove).
Shoving creatures much farther away, e.g. up to 30 feet away if you really want to throw them far.
More abilities like Second Wind or Uncanny Dodge that make you more resilient.
Extra bonus actions or reactions.
Etc.

Basically, imagine a normal person without special powers. Now imagine that that person is an anime protagonist. What totally ordinary and not special abilities do they have?

[HPisBS]

Basically, imagine a normal person without special powers. Now imagine that that person is an anime protagonist. What totally ordinary and not special abilities do they have?

Base Monk + Maneuvers.

Edit:
To be less cheeky, other common tropes are oversized weapons, sensing & projecting some sort of "killing intent" / pressure... and of course, the power of friendship lol.

[MrStabby]

So, recently there have been several threads about the imbalance between martials and mages. a fairly common theme within those threads is that martials are unfairly held to 'realistic' standards, while mages aren't. i.e. martials are treated as though they can only be as good/strong/powerful, as real people we see in teh real world, whereas mages don't have the limitation. This got me thinking, trying to come up with ways to make martials feel the way they (IMO) should. ways to elevate their fantasy. so...i've tried to think of things to give them that might accomplish this goal.

the first idea: and one that i actually saw suggested by someone else...im not 100% sure, sorry. is to let them actually damage force constructs. and i like it. so something like 'bludgeoning damage you deal treats constructs of force as having 15 AC and 150HP per 5'square.

and an original idea: bludgeoning, piercing, slashing damage you deal is treated as magical for the purposes of overcoming damage resistance when dealt to a creature whos CR is at most half your (class) level.

neither of these are particularly *huge* abilities. i don't imagine constructs of force come up anywhere near often enough for the first ability to be super ubiquitous. and frankly, by the time you get to a high enough level for the second ability to matter, you've probably already acquired a magic weapon. However, they both still play really strongly into the fantasy that you're a near mythical warrior.

what i'd like from y'all is some more ideas. Don't worry too much about balance, its the core of the idea thats important. for example: the force construct idea, might have too small of numbers. but the idea that a martial character could eventaully break down a wall of force, thats teh important idea. On the other hand, they don't have to be near useless mechanically either (as the second one is). im just looking for things that you'd expect mythical warrior like Beowulf to be able to accomplish, but currently would tend to get denied in current DnD

Damaging force constructs is maybe a bigger deal than you think.

Asa DM I very rarely use them unless the PCs can deal with them. Too uninteractive and a way of ruining a player's evening. If Martials couldinteract with them... Iwould use them a lot more.

Also, maybe give martials resistance to force damage and shift some damage sources to force - make force a kind of 4th type of physical damage - maybe crushing equivelant given impact of beinginside an object you shouldn't.

[Dienekes]

-Being athletic to the point of ridiculousness. Jump frankly insanely far/high. They jump high enough to punch Godzilla sized baddies. Run up walls or water. If falling they can just grab a wall to stop themselves or run across falling rubble to get to safety. At the end of their excursions their hair is also perfect. That is important.
-If they use weapons they can parry things that are unparryable. Bullets with ease. But also things like batting aside fireballs that have been shown to level buildings before. Bonus points if they somehow send it back to the enemy. If they use a ranged weapon, they can somehow parry with bullets.
-Moves faster than the eye can see. So fast that people can’t React to them. Unless they are a martial of equal skill. The person they get behind may then have to say “Nani?” about the situation.
-Breaking the unbreakable. With the power of just focusing really hard and possibly screaming they can punch through materials that are previously thought to be unbreakable... and occasionally things that make no sense: “Haha I’m in your mind, controlling your body.” “Yeah but the anthropomorphic manifestation of my soul punches you IN MY HEAD!” That sort of nonsense.

[Tanarii]

So, recently there have been several threads about the imbalance between martials and mages. a fairly common theme within those threads is that martials are unfairly held to 'realistic' standards, while mages aren't. i.e. martials are treated as though they can only be as good/strong/powerful, as real people we see in teh real world, whereas mages don't have the limitation.
They've all been triggered by a complain that Martials don't have out of combat options built in, and Full Casters have a glut of them. I don't personally agree, but that's neither here nor there.

And yet the fix almost always seems to be to give Martials more combat prowess, often to the point their already inhuman abilities are Wuxia/Anime. Which misses the point entirely.

[Lord Raziere]

They've all been triggered by a complain that Martials don't have out of combat options built in, and Full Casters have a glut of them. I don't personally agree, but that's neither here nor there.

And yet the fix almost always seems to be to give Martials more combat prowess, often to the point their already inhuman abilities are Wuxia/Anime. Which misses the point entirely.

Inhuman abilities have out of combat application. its just that for some reason everyone wants to think about the implications of a world where people in silly hats who read books make impossible things happen with silly words, but no one wants to think about the implications of a world where someone can lift buildings or leap mountains and flanderize the possibility of having them into "but then EVERYONE will be the strong and nothing will make sense anymore!"

[Nagog]

I've said it once and I'll say it again: Reputation. When you think of legendary warriors in history, there are a whole crap ton: Sampson, Kind Arthur, every one of the Knights of the Round Table, Beowulf, Gilgamesh, and the list goes on. As for mages, I mean... Merlin? For more modern works, Gandalf and the Harry Potter troupe?

Basically Reputation would be a resource like Ki points or Sorcery Points in that they scale with level, but they can be used as a resource to grant different out of combat things, like adding your proficiency bonus (potentially twice if proficient in the skill) to a skill check, or perhaps as a way to connect with others and access people/places/resources you normally wouldn't be able to. If Dumbledore asked you to give him your lunch, you'd probably refuse. If Attila the Hun asked for you're lunch, you would out of fear of being brutally murdered.

[Lord Raziere]

I've said it once and I'll say it again: Reputation. When you think of legendary warriors in history, there are a whole crap ton: Sampson, Kind Arthur, every one of the Knights of the Round Table, Beowulf, Gilgamesh, and the list goes on. As for mages, I mean... Merlin? For more modern works, Gandalf and the Harry Potter troupe?

Basically Reputation would be a resource like Ki points or Sorcery Points in that they scale with level, but they can be used as a resource to grant different out of combat things, like adding your proficiency bonus (potentially twice if proficient in the skill) to a skill check, or perhaps as a way to connect with others and access people/places/resources you normally wouldn't be able to. If Dumbledore asked you to give him your lunch, you'd probably refuse. If Attila the Hun asked for you're lunch, you would out of fear of being brutally murdered.

That could work for the people who don't like wuxia, yes. but I personally think the two concepts can also be intertwined?

like nothing is stopping a wuxia warrior from also having a reputation or I daresay, a legend.

or that legend gradually giving you divine power to make you do passively greater feats, like a god but on a smaller scale.

[Tanarii]

Inhuman abilities have out of combat application. its just that for some reason everyone wants to think about the implications of a world where people in silly hats who read books make impossible things happen with silly words, but no one wants to think about the implications of a world where someone can lift buildings or leap mountains and flanderize the possibility of having them into "but then EVERYONE will be the strong and nothing will make sense anymore!"
There's some out of combat there, yes. But that doesn't really address the common compliant against Martials.

[DarknessEternal]

How many threads does this really need?

[Lord Raziere]

There's some out of combat there, yes. But that doesn't really address the common compliant against Martials.

But, it can.

hyper-geniuses who don't need spells to be great scientists and scholars, charismatic leaders and super-perceptive detectives are not spellcasters and are utility. you can argue that they're not wuxia either, sure, but that missing the point of fixing them and focusing overly on the not technically being wuxia part. being technically correct is only as good as being technical is, and I don't think its real valuable to be technical here. don't miss the forest for the trees.

what matters is allowing an exaggeration of physical/mental abilities outside of a western magic incantation paradigm of robe and wizard hats. wuxia is just one of the most obvious ways of doing so, and therefore one of the best ways of showing how it can be done. in that one could theoretically develop a martial art to speak real good or train their eyes to be real perceptive beyond most people, things like that.

now we can discuss other ways of empowering them, such as the legend/reputation one. but we can only talk about them if there is something to talk about IE, an idea alternative to wuxia as a means of visualizing/contextualizing the empowerment of martials. the reason why wuxia so often said, is because its a popular idea, its well known, and thus how it works and its logic can be better applied. we don't have to figure anything extra out from it. its a touchstone of communication because we all know what that looks like and what effects it can have. one just has to apply those beyond punching.

in short, unless you have a better idea and convince everyone that its a better idea.....we're going to keep talking about it. tough beans.

[Ignimortis]

How many threads does this really need?

I would assume that these threads will keep popping up as long as the problem persists. After all, the 3.5 subforum is still talking about it with some regularity. Perhaps 6e (yet unannounced and probably won't be out for at least a few more years even if it happens) will do something about it?

[djreynolds]

Most martial types begin play with all weapon proficiency at 1st level.

But really there's no improvement. A caster can upcast a 1st level spell.

I see all these weapon feats and I feel they could be incorporated into martials.

At 5th level you can select blade master or spear master or fell handed.

At 10th you can use piercing or slashing or crushing.

It just shows me growth. By 5th level you should've learned some tricks having survived.

You could say you got the extra attack at 5th. But all the caster cantrip damage increased also.

All casters get access to new spells. Perhaps the paladin is better at axes and hammers now.

Who knows?

[Monster Manuel]

Gear. My fix is to give martials cooler stuff.

Lots of the heroic warriors of lore have a magic sword, or a helmet that makes them invisible, or a rope that can bind monsters. Mjolnirs and Excaliburs and etc. They have tools that help them to do legendary things, so I make sure that martials in my games get access to those tools.

Two things that I do, aside from weighing the odds of finding a martial-adjacent item in a horde are to give magic weapons some extra properties, and to make it easier to enchant items in certain cases.

I toyed with the idea of giving all magic weapons an anti-magic save bonus. Once per short rest, if they were not surprised by the caster, they can make a weapon attack to resist an incoming spell, instead of a saving throw. Stab that Charm Person spell right out of the air. It needs some refinement (I'll probably limit it to below a certain spell level), but it's been fun, even when the enemies use it against the players. It doesn't make sense, really, but it's cinematic and heroic and it kind of works.

The other thing I do with items is to allow them to enchant themselves. When a player does something exceptional with their gear, I track a kind of "item xp". I let the players define a signature item for themselves. If a rogue manages to sneak past a half dozen guards to escape a prison camp, their signature boots get 100 item xp points. These points can be traded in to count towards gold and time spent enchanting an item. A few more episodes like this, and the rogues' boots become Boots of Elvenkind. It has to be genuinely exceptional, the sort of thing that would grant Inspiration, at the very least. And not just based on good rolls, but on good ideas and good role-playing. The player doesn't know how much xp their item has , and they don't know exactly when it will manifest. It will always be sometime dramatic. It becomes a new item named for the character (Tomlin's Boots, or the Shield of Damakos). Essentially, I see it as another form of treasure, adjusting other treasure rewards accordingly (NPCs may have their own signature items that you can claim as treasure, but you'll almost never find one just lying around in a chest somewhere).

Both of these tend to go against the design intent that "you don't need magic items to be effective". But it helps mundane martials to feel more heroic, and I think it's a start.

[Chronos]

One guideline you could use might be the Twelve Labors of Hercules. Sure, many of them just amounted to fighting some big nasty monster, but many of them he had to bring back alive. And he also rerouted a river, fought off an entire army, split a mountain in two, held up the weight of the sky, and returned under his own power from the afterlife.

[Kyutaru]

The chief thing I see hampering the fantasy is Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards. As long as fighters are limitless and gear dependent they will have slow and steady gains that can be used an unlimited number of times per day while wizards have to deal with spell slots and choices limiting them. A wizard can do anything but not all at once, not in one day, not with only one wizard, and not at level 3. To expand martials to truly be a caster's equal they would need what 4th edition attempted, namely encounter powers.

Barring that option since it requires a redesign of the core, including the heightened martial senses common in RPGs could be another route. Whether it's Lan Mandragoran or Aragorn Elessar or Xena Warrior Princess, martials seem to always just "know" when someone is approaching and danger lurks nearby. Some can even dodge arrows they couldn't even see without any levels in monk. Their hearing, sight, smell, and instincts are almost bestial in nature permitting them to identify threats the party cannot be aware of or track the unknown watcher through the trees without vision. Massive bonuses to Listen and Spot just aren't enough because DMs prefer to control the randomness and they are Wisdom-based checks that penetrate hiding creatures. Too many limits, needs more Spider-man. Danger sense and a passively projecting aura of detection can be fantastic for them. If you wanted to go Wuxia levels then they can sense other beings miles away due to their auras.

Speaking of auras, make use of those. The fighting spirit, determination, spiritual energy, or the indomitable will just don't find their way into the rules sadly. Martials tend to be able to push past the physical human limits consistently through their training and battle experience, an association with pain that goes well beyond what is normal, even using it to break illusions they are trapped in! If you go the Wuxia route again, auras can provide protection similar to armor or extreme damage reduction. Not to step on any Monk or Barbarian toes though I'm not advocating using it for more than spell resistance. Auras can even be malleable, creating unique effects depending on the user that reflect something only they have mastered -- DM intervention is advised for character creation and advancement here.

Extreme speed already being a Monk thing I won't mention here since it breaks the rule core. But extreme reflexes are another matter and as others have mentioned Initiative bonuses, deflecting projectiles, and instant reactive thinking (instincts; combat reflexes). In the past we had feats for these that permitted some advantages at the cost of specialization but now martials are mostly limited to Action Surge and their multiple attacks per round. Granting them something that allows more mundane actions per normal action or even renders certain ones freely obtained or performed may close up more of the gap and fix the fantasy at the same time by letting players roleplay cool screen-worthy action.

In short, while casters command the very fabric of reality and all of the cosmos and elements, martials should command the 5-feet (or more) around them. That is their reality and in that space they are gods.

[ZRN]

They've all been triggered by a complain that Martials don't have out of combat options built in, and Full Casters have a glut of them. I don't personally agree, but that's neither here nor there.

And yet the fix almost always seems to be to give Martials more combat prowess, often to the point their already inhuman abilities are Wuxia/Anime. Which misses the point entirely.

4th edition tackled the issue directly with Martial Practices, which were basically rituals for martial characters that let you do mostly non-combat things that were outside the general scope of skill/ability checks.

I still think this is probably a per-table issue that requires discussion: what do the martial players at your table THINK a level 20 fighter or rogue should be able to do? Because people on this forum complain that wizards can teleport and fly, but I don't think anyone who specifically picks out one of the like three class/subclass combos that CAN'T learn how to do magic by level 10 does so because they WANT their character to do explicitly magic stuff at high levels.

[Kyutaru]

4th edition tackled the issue directly with Martial Practices, which were basically rituals for martial characters that let you do mostly non-combat things that were outside the general scope of skill/ability checks.

I still think this is probably a per-table issue that requires discussion: what do the martial players at your table THINK a level 20 fighter or rogue should be able to do? Because people on this forum complain that wizards can teleport and fly, but I don't think anyone who specifically picks out one of the like three class/subclass combos that CAN'T learn how to do magic by level 10 does so because they WANT their character to do explicitly magic stuff at high levels.

I personally like cooldowns and warmups in many JRPGs. The concept being that casters can do a lot if they have foresight and planning and must prepare spells in advance and have casting times (in short, casting is delayed) while martials need no such planning and can just do things spontaneously while paying the price for it later with exhaustion until they recover. It makes casters more rest then act while martials are more act then rest.

[HPisBS]

Gear. My fix is to give martials cooler stuff.
...
I toyed with the idea of giving all magic weapons an anti-magic save bonus. Once per short rest, if they were not surprised by the caster, they can make a weapon attack to resist an incoming spell, instead of a saving throw. Stab that Charm Person spell right out of the air....

The other thing I do with items is to allow them to enchant themselves. When a player does something exceptional with their gear, I track a kind of "item xp"....


Both of those are really cool ideas. The latter may be asking too much of some DMs, though.


... including the heightened martial senses common in RPGs could be another route. Whether it's Lan Mandragoran or Aragorn Elessar or Xena Warrior Princess, martials seem to always just "know" when someone is approaching and danger lurks nearby. Some can even dodge arrows they couldn't even see without any levels in monk....

Speaking of auras, make use of those. The fighting spirit, determination, spiritual energy, or the indomitable will just don't find their way into the rules sadly. Martials tend to be able to push past the physical human limits consistently through their training and battle experience, an association with pain that goes well beyond what is normal, even using it to break illusions they are trapped in!

Another cool idea. Though the first part sounds like it's just Alert.

[MinotaurWarrior]

In 5.5E I think that from level ~ 13 on (7th+ Level Spell Time) pure martials (Barb, Fighter, Rogue, Monk) should start to break core systems in a way similar to how rogues already nearly break the skill system.

Barbarians should break attributes. Both let them exceed caps sooner, and give them abilities that change the way raw attributes function. For example, make powerful build a class feature (with some bonus if you already had it from another source), and then scale it further. Double, triple, quadruple their dex bonus to initiative. And while you're at it, add more functions for ability scores in the core rules.

Fighters should break the action economy in all pillars. The relentless effort they apply in combat to make 8+ attacks a round? They also use it in social encounters, exploration, and downtime. The wizard preps eight hours for a ten minute work day. The fighter spends 16 hours straight busting his ass each second in a way the wizard can't imagine. Holy ****, did he just organize the townsfolk to build a moat and palisade overnight? Did he just craft 100 masterwork spears? Did he just read and cross-reference every book on demonology in Candlekeep to figure out that demon's true name? This would require more downtime / social rules, as well as more fun exploration rules.

Rogues should get features that more directly tie into other skills besides stealth, and we need some clearer rules on setting DCs. They already have the capacity to break through to the absolute top of the bounded accuracy ranges on stealth DCs vs PP. Extend that to other skills, and watch rogue players bask in the glory as they spend all day every day winning at everything they try. Watch the insightful rogue get straight to the bottom of the BBEG's plan. Watch the social rogue outdo the diplomats from every kingdom. We don't need to enable the full insanity of 3.5 Diplomancers, but we need skills to concretely do things.

Monks need iddhi. Just go crazier with their innate free powers. Let them be in multiple places at once, know minds, create mind-made bodies, travel to other planes of existence, see truth, etc. In particular, I think it's really important that what they get here not be spells or even spell like. A wizard or cleric draws upon outside power to bend reality to their will on a short term basis. A monk has developed himself into a being qualitatively separate from anything else.

[kazaryu]

sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread. work, sleep, session. anyway, i've edited the OP to hopefully clear up some misunderstandings i saw about the intent of this thread. thanks to everyone that are contributing!


I have no idea about force constructs, that sounds like a suspiciously specific ability that would never come up in a lot of campaigns.
the most ubiquitous examples of 'force constructs would likely be 'wall of force' and 'forcecage'. they're physical objects made of pure magic, and typically 'unbreakable'. I agree its niche, but this isn't *neccisarily* about actually buffing martial PC's. its about giving them things they can point to and say 'look, im not just a victim in a world run by mages.' which is exactly what lvl 20 martials are, if you go purely based on RaW.



I think a better direction would be to amp up their "mundaneness" to superhuman levels. Maybe not quite Superman level, but at least Batman level, and probably somewhere between the two.



mmhmm, that is exactly the idea. bring them up so that they're on par with mythical heroes. Even if it doesn't have a strong mechanical impact (ideas that would be strong mechanically are fine too, im just saying that my focus isn't really on the mechanical imbalance. its on the imbalance of the fantasy).



Asa DM I very rarely use them unless the PCs can deal with them. Too uninteractive and a way of ruining a player's evening. If Martials couldinteract with them... I would use them a lot more.
possibly, the issue there is that they become an obstacle with a single, obvious solution. Overall i think the most effective way (in terms of player fun) to include that would be as an obstacle that the Big Bad thinks is a real obstacle, but the Players know isn't. and the playes know its coming, so they can plan around it. as an example: players are need to break into somewhere to kill a bad dude. bad dude is know for trapping people in forcecages while he does blah blah blah and they have to watch impotently. thus giving teh player the ability to *allow* themselves to be captured (or at the very least not have to worry as much about getting captured as they pursue their primary tactic). But either way, you do bring up a good point.


I've said it once and I'll say it again: Reputation.
hmmm, i like the idea of reputation, but i don't think it really addresses what im looking for here. reputation follows powerful works, it doesn't generate them. like, Attila the Hun wasn't a murderous bastard *because* he had that reputation. he had that reputation *because* he was a murderous bastard. definitely a good idea, something for creating a more robust social side to the game, but i think its a bit beyond teh scope of what im looking for here.


ok, not actually a quote, this is mostly here for formatting, to help break up my points. but Here im specifically going to respond the sub-thread about wuxia/anime and how to justify making martials stronger

and really my response is, why bother? IMO the default assumption in DnD is that PC's are special. not necessarily int eh sense of being 'chosen' or anything like that. but they're already inherently superhuman, even if they were born entirely naturally. the lvl 20 fighter isn't just a gymbro/HEMA enthusiast that won the olympics. They're Achilles. The barbarian isn't just a stereotypical viking. They're Beowulf. The rogue isn't just the most accomplished art thief in the world. they're ali baba. They're the people that IRL history writes myths about. Except they're largely able to live up to those myths.

as for the wuxia/anime discussion, why are we pretending that this is a concept that we're borrowing from asia? (and for the record, even places like india do this, there's a darkk mane video about it, you should watch, its fun). This is a trope thats well established in western fiction as well.
Lord of the Rings (the movies, its been far too long since i read the books to remember all of the specifics. although im willing to bet that similar examples exist there too)
-Sam carrying frodo and the ring up teh side of mount doom after spending days with little to no water/food.
-Sam fighting his way through multiple orcs to rescue frodo after escaping shelobs lair
-The Fellowship fighting off an entire horde of orcs in a hundreds v 9 situation
-Boromir fighting through getting shot in teh chest while wearing basically no armor
More general:
-comics: heroes such as batman, tony stark, black widow, hawkeye, green arrow. Even villains such as Bane, Joker, Riddler.
-Robin hood:
-'prince charming' going toe to toe with a literal dragon.

If you decide to look you can find examples everywhere. they're dressed up differently, likely due to cultural differences, but it seems fairly ubiquitously human that we create fictional heroes that 'just like us' but also 'well beyond what we can actually achieve'.

[NecessaryWeevil]

If we're going to fix the problem by adding new rules, we also have to convince people that Martials are allowed to do things the rules [already] permit them to do.

For example, a while ago I was discussing my Goliath grappler and a few commentators were upset that he could keep two grizzly bears grappled and prone with the awesome magic power of Having Two Hands. At the expense of immobilizing himself and occupying both hands. Meanwhile my wizard buddy is keeping four completely incapacitated, with his hands free, while moving freely and also throwing lightning bolts and fireballs. Because Guy-at-the-Gym Syndrome doesn't apply to casters.

[Mith]

In 5.5E I think that from level ~ 13 on (7th+ Level Spell Time) pure martials (Barb, Fighter, Rogue, Monk) should start to break core systems in a way similar to how rogues already nearly break the skill system.

Barbarians should break attributes. Both let them exceed caps sooner, and give them abilities that change the way raw attributes function. For example, make powerful build a class feature (with some bonus if you already had it from another source), and then scale it further. Double, triple, quadruple their dex bonus to initiative. And while you're at it, add more functions for ability scores in the core rules.

Fighters should break the action economy in all pillars. The relentless effort they apply in combat to make 8+ attacks a round? They also use it in social encounters, exploration, and downtime. The wizard preps eight hours for a ten minute work day. The fighter spends 16 hours straight busting his ass each second in a way the wizard can't imagine. Holy ****, did he just organize the townsfolk to build a moat and palisade overnight? Did he just craft 100 masterwork spears? Did he just read and cross-reference every book on demonology in Candlekeep to figure out that demon's true name? This would require more downtime / social rules, as well as more fun exploration rules.

Rogues should get features that more directly tie into other skills besides stealth, and we need some clearer rules on setting DCs. They already have the capacity to break through to the absolute top of the bounded accuracy ranges on stealth DCs vs PP. Extend that to other skills, and watch rogue players bask in the glory as they spend all day every day winning at everything they try. Watch the insightful rogue get straight to the bottom of the BBEG's plan. Watch the social rogue outdo the diplomats from every kingdom. We don't need to enable the full insanity of 3.5 Diplomancers, but we need skills to concretely do things.

Monks need iddhi. Just go crazier with their innate free powers. Let them be in multiple places at once, know minds, create mind-made bodies, travel to other planes of existence, see truth, etc. In particular, I think it's really important that what they get here not be spells or even spell like. A wizard or cleric draws upon outside power to bend reality to their will on a short term basis. A monk has developed himself into a being qualitatively separate from anything else.

Some musings off of this (Mostly trying to refine some of these ideas):

Barbarians: I do like the idea of Barbarians breaking the stat cap sooner. A potential idea I have is that instead of making it purely STR and CON focused, have it be something like (+1 STR/CON +1 any other to a cap) at X levels on top of ASIs, with the dedicated stat boost being able to be reinvested if the character is already at cap for the given stat(s). Personally, I think Feral Initiative should just be proficiency to initiative rather than advantage so that it grows over time to represent experience. Perhaps the 20th level capstone is STR/CON 28 so that the Hammer of Thunderbolts/Belt/Gloves has some effect.
- Side thought: Items that give change stats should give some bonus to related skills and abilities when the wearer already has stats that high, since ability damage is rare. Perhaps advantage on related checks (akin to a "Help" action).

Fighters: I think a fun way to do the action economy break for Fighters (and perhaps reflect this in a Paladin redesign) is have them break action economy with a morale system. Have them able to raise morale of the masses in a way that allows them to co-ordinate things, and pull things through. This allows the ability to pull through any type of endurance test, and help others pull through. Paladins take this further by being able to make nearby allies immune to morale effects and maybe improve morale of those in sight of them through an aura concept.

I would use the battle master maneuvers to allow them to coordinate/bolster allies/disrupt the enemy as a common baseline. The Champion forgoes some maneuver system resources for a standard boost to personal damage (perhaps the brute dice) and personal recovery. Eldritch Knight is the sword mage that forgoes some maneuver system resources for arcane spells. The physical effects in combat (Disarm, Trip, Lunge, etc.) are all things characters can do in combat as skill contests, but the maneuver system makes this more effective. Personally, I wonder if Ranger could be done as a Druidic focused Eldritch Knight build, and the Paladin as the Clerical equivalent, but that requires a redesign of Cleric and Paladin to really work.

Rogues: As you pointed with the skills, Rogues should be able to break the skill system. I wonder if there is a good way to have combat resource of trading damage for accuracy (in essence sacrifice sneak attack dice) as a "focus effect" per short rest that could translate to doing similar effect in skill challenges. They still have reliable talent, but that just raises the floor, not the ceiling.

- Side thought: And idea I like on skill challenges is to use 2d10 for skill rolls, and the proficiency dice (+2 = 1d4, +3 = 1d6, etc.) but expertise maximises the dice (makes it the same as currently done). This means that the possibility of a proficient and expert are the same, but the probabilities are vastly different.

Monks: I think making them something akin to Warlock short rest caster + invocations but as "mystic training" would make something interesting out of this.

[Tvtyrant]

Take the Mystic, file some of the numbers and then instead if psychic energy it is physical exertion. Static benefit for the discipline, some movies that wear you down, now you have a class.

Back in 3.5 I did something similar with Psychic Warrior where instead of PP you used your HP, and I removed some of the more blatantly magical powers. It fairly well if you use somewhat higher HP.

[kazaryu]

If we're going to fix the problem by adding new rules, we also have to convince people that Martials are allowed to do things the rules [already] permit them to do.
.

that is, explicitly the point of this thread. im looking for ideas on what we can give martials in order to break the mindset that they're bound by irl realism. because the reason that (imo) casters get away with it, is that they're already obviously not bound by irl limitations.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Ah, gotcha. Missed that nuance.

[AntiAuthority]

Well, if we're not worried about balance and general ideas... This is going to vary from person to person on what a martial is and isn't. As for wuxia/anime... That's one well known source of what mid-to-high level martials would look like. These aren't in any particular order or anything, and these are going to sound blatantly impossible, but I'm on the side that, "Real Life and High Level are two mutually exclusive concepts." Might add more if any come to mind.

Ranged types should be capable of using their eyes to see well over what is accepted as the human limit, along with being able to cause collateral damage (https://youtu.be/GfTGkrSSpZA?t=18) from their shots, being able to make their shots curve in mid-air, call down a rain of arrows/bullets or if we want to get into mythology and folklore, change the weather or affect celestial bodies.

Melee types should be able to smash through solid stone, hurl boulders at enemies/to damage far away targets/to build bridges like Finn McCool or just affect the environment in some way. They could jump to far away places or sunder a mountain in half to let the army march through it instead of climbing over it. A neighboring kingdom is able to attack and you want to avoid bloodshed? Just split the earth and create a deep chasm that neither side can cross until a bridge is built and you can find out what you need to. Not feeling bothered to go through a dungeon like low level riffraff? Just start knocking holes through the walls/floors. Or jump to the top of the dark tower instead of traversing lower floors. Every attack by this person is hitting the person directly in front of them and anyone unfortunate enough to be standing behind them... Or in the same general direction as them.

Observant types being able to essentially read someone so well they might as well be telepathic for example, such as taking a casual glance at someone and figuring out their probable occupation, marital status, childhood and skillset. Or being able to track people over impossible distances by our standards, such as needing to find someone who is known to hop between planes... They could go around asking for advice and doing quests to gather information, or they could do the simpler thing and follow a nearly invisible trail from decades ago, possibly predicting where their target was heading even before their target knew where they were going.

Charismatic types should be able to essentially talk an entire country into giving this one stranger all of their treasure, be able to essentially insert themselves into someone's backstory by being so believable that the person they're talking to are sure "Yeah, I've always know this person..." Essentially, you listen to this person for a minute, they're your best friend in the world and you'd be willing to go to Hell and back for them. Even reality might begin to believe their lives, as things start conveniently popping up to support their claims (pictures retroactively changing to include them in it, their names showing up in wills to wealthy people they never met, etc.)

Those with a high Constitution essentially don't need food, water, sleep or maybe even oxygen for long periods of time... Diseases and poisons rarely affect them, if at all. Being decapitated isn't immediately fatal to this person and they could probably be saved if their severed head is reattached to them.

Those with high Dexterity could take whatever's going on when a Rogue evades an explosion entirely to another level and allow them to phase through solid objects. Instead of climbing up the building, they could essentially run up it or just run on air.

Being able to hide themselves really well, such as becoming someone half your weight/height or some such.

The ability to be able to terrify someone into deciding, "No, I'm not fighting this person" through paralysis or being frightened to death. Possibly as a passive effect that works in a radius (I recall someone mentioning that Fighters had something similar to an Aura of Fear in an earlier edition, but that was a while ago so I can't recall the thread or subforum) Anyone who falls prey to this either can't attack this person or will do whatever they say to make this person leave faster. These types of people are able to intimidate things that would normally not be intimidated by our standards, such as plants or undead... If this person gets angry, everyone nearby starts having negative reactions and the area itself might begin to react through violent tremors.

The ability to self-buff (and arguably transform). Cu Chulainn had his Warp Spasm that increased his power immensely, Sun Wukong had his War God form, Dante has his Devil Trigger which increases his regeneration and gives him more options, Beorn could become a bear, etc.

Interplanar travel... Such as being able to cut a hole into another location in space-time or some other means.

More actions during a round, as I'm sure we've all seen that one character in fiction that's so much faster than the others that they strike multiple times compared to a normal person's one or something along those lines. This could also apply to higher movement speeds.

Save or Die/Save or Suck effects from attacks (or the aforementioned ability of terrifying people).

The ability to harm spirits in some form or another, or destroy souls. If my much higher level martial wants to kill a lower CR Lich... Why can't they just destroy their physical shell and soul in one fell swoop if they're much more powerful than them, for example?

Regeneration to the point where someone is very difficult to kill without specific instructions... Sort of like a Lich now that I think about it, only not undead.

Damage Resistance, as we're all aware of Achilles or whatever character being so tough that damage doesn't do anything to them.

Resistance to magical effects in some degree.

This one is a bit iffy, but minionmancy. Sun Wukong could make clones out of his hairs, Superman could make copies of himself, Goku Black could summon clones of himself and Naruto can summon his Shadow Clones.

The ability to interact with the abstract/conceptual... Essentially, a thief that can steal your memories/unlock your heart/unlock someone's potential (imagine the Skeleton Key from Skyrim being revealed to be able to unlock your potential), a warrior that can kill parts of your personality (such as defiance) to make you more docile/cleave away at your rationale to make you into a crazed berserker/destroy your wounds to effective "heal" you/"destroying" any future they don't want to get a desired outcome or something to those effects. There was a class based on this idea on this sub-forum IIRC, but I can't remember the name of it at the moment.

[heavyfuel]

Want to fix martials? Bring back initiators and Taking 10.

Some people will cry about "anime fightan magic" in their games, but it's actually not too dificult to fluff maneuvers to not be magic.

Other people will cry "but the Rogue's reliable talent!", while they completely ignore the fact that Reliable Talent is far stronger than Taking 10.

[Unoriginal]

Want to fix martials? Bring back initiators and Taking 10.

Some people will cry about "anime fightan magic" in their games, but it's actually not too dificult to fluff maneuvers to not be magic.

Other people will cry "but the Rogue's reliable talent!", while they completely ignore the fact that Reliable Talent is far stronger than Taking 10.

In 5e, any task that you can try again and again until success without consequences for trying several times (aka what you do when you take 10 in 3.X) is an auto-success.

There is no need to add "take 10" to the game because what it does is already in the game.

[heavyfuel]

In 5e, any task that you can try again and again until success without consequences for trying several times (aka what you do when you take 10 in 3.X) is an auto-success.

There is no need to add "take 10" to the game because what it does is already in the game.

So?

That's not what Take 10 allowed. Take 10 allowed you to do stuff even if there were consequences, you just couldn't do while distracted. Mostly this meant combat. There were a dozen of rules examples of taking 10 in situations where consequences could happen.

Want to Climb a wall and not risk falling? Take 10. Want to sneak by an enemy? Take 10. Keep your balance while on a small ledge? Take 10.

[Xervous]

So?

That's not what Take 10 allowed. Take 10 allowed you to do stuff even if there were consequences, you just couldn't do while distracted. Mostly this meant combat. There were a dozen of rules examples of taking 10 in situations where consequences could happen.

Want to Climb a wall and not risk falling? Take 10. Want to sneak by an enemy? Take 10. Keep your balance while on a small ledge? Take 10.

Clearly this can’t happen, character incompetence is a popular GM assumption and is further reinforced by the system.

[HPisBS]

Ranged types should be capable of using their eyes to see well over what is accepted as the human limit, along with being able to cause collateral damage (https://youtu.be/GfTGkrSSpZA?t=18) from their shots, being able to make their shots curve in mid-air, call down a rain of arrows/bullets or if we want to get into mythology and folklore, change the weather or affect celestial bodies.

Melee types should be able to smash through solid stone, hurl boulders at enemies/to damage far away targets/to build bridges like Finn McCool or just affect the environment in some way. They could jump to far away places or sunder a mountain in half to let the army march through it instead of climbing over it. A neighboring kingdom is able to attack and you want to avoid bloodshed? Just split the earth and create a deep chasm that neither side can cross until a bridge is built and you can find out what you need to. Not feeling bothered to go through a dungeon like low level riffraff? Just start knocking holes through the walls/floors. Or jump to the top of the dark tower instead of traversing lower floors. Every attack by this person is hitting the person directly in front of them and anyone unfortunate enough to be standing behind them... Or in the same general direction as them.
...
Save or Die/Save or Suck effects from attacks (or the aforementioned ability of terrifying people).

We already have "call down a rain of arrows" in the form of three Ranger-exclusive spells: Hail of Thorns, Conjure Barrage, and Conjure Volley. Curving Shots are already an Arcane Archer feature. We could stand to have some Ice Knife-like exploding arrow spells, though. Maybe some Ranger-exclusive spells like:

2nd-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V, S
Duration: Up to 1 minute

The next time you hit a creature with a ranged weapon attack before the spell ends, this spell creates a burst of elemental energy that explodes from your ranged weapon or ammunition. In addition to the normal effect of the attack, the target of the attack and each creature within 15 feet of it must make a Dexterity saving throw. Choose fire, cold, lightning, or thunder damage. A creature takes 2d8 damage of the chosen type on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

At Higher Levels. If you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 1st (to a maximum of 5d8).
or
4th-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

Once per turn when you make a ranged weapon attack, this spell creates a burst of concussive force that explodes from your ranged weapon or ammunition. In addition to the normal effect of the attack, the target of the attack and each creature within 5 feet of it must make a Dexterity saving throw. A creature takes 2d6 thunder damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

The thing about brewing crazy Str features, or even just save-or-suck features, is that so many concepts already exist in RAW one way or another, which makes it really hard to not step on any pre-existing toes, or make any RAW redundant. I mean, how many save-or-suck features can you give all fighters/barbarians/paladins/rangers/whatever that you can't already get just by playing Battle Master or something?


Since reading this post, I've been toying with the idea of letting your Fighting Style upgrade as you level. Maybe...

Archery could give you +½ proficiency bonus to Perception checks (even if you already add a proficiency-based bonus) once you reach 11th level in the class. Then, 17th level in that class could let you curve 1 ranged attack around whatever obstacles you want per turn.
Defense could give you +½ proficiency bonus to Acrobatics checks (even if you already add a proficiency-based bonus) once you reach 11th level in the class. Then, 17th level in that class could let you use a reaction to reduce (non- force, radiant, or necrotic) damage by your AC minus 10.
Two-Weapon Fighting could give you +½ proficiency bonus to Sleight of Hand checks (even if you already add a proficiency-based bonus) once you reach 11th level in the class. Then, 17th level in that class could let you use a reaction to being hit by an attack that you're aware of to make an opposed attack roll. If your attack roll is equal to or greater than the attack that would've hit you, then your attack blocks it.
and so on


Barbarians, Monks, and possibly Rogues would still need their own upgrades to match, but this would be a decent way to boost most martials in a consistent, yet cool way that'd actually be somewhat targeted to players' character concepts.

[kazaryu]

Well, if we're not worried about balance and general ideas... This is going to vary from person to person on what a martial is and isn't. As for wuxia/anime... That's one well known source of what mid-to-high level martials would look like. These aren't in any particular order or anything, and these are going to sound blatantly impossible, but I'm on the side that, "Real Life and High Level are two mutually exclusive concepts." Might add more if any come to mind.

Ranged types should be capable of using their eyes to see well over what is accepted as the human limit, along with being able to cause collateral damage (https://youtu.be/GfTGkrSSpZA?t=18) from their shots, being able to make their shots curve in mid-air, call down a rain of arrows/bullets or if we want to get into mythology and folklore, change the weather or affect celestial bodies.

Melee types should be able to smash through solid stone, hurl boulders at enemies/to damage far away targets/to build bridges like Finn McCool or just affect the environment in some way. They could jump to far away places or sunder a mountain in half to let the army march through it instead of climbing over it. A neighboring kingdom is able to attack and you want to avoid bloodshed? Just split the earth and create a deep chasm that neither side can cross until a bridge is built and you can find out what you need to. Not feeling bothered to go through a dungeon like low level riffraff? Just start knocking holes through the walls/floors. Or jump to the top of the dark tower instead of traversing lower floors. Every attack by this person is hitting the person directly in front of them and anyone unfortunate enough to be standing behind them... Or in the same general direction as them.

Observant types being able to essentially read someone so well they might as well be telepathic for example, such as taking a casual glance at someone and figuring out their probable occupation, marital status, childhood and skillset. Or being able to track people over impossible distances by our standards, such as needing to find someone who is known to hop between planes... They could go around asking for advice and doing quests to gather information, or they could do the simpler thing and follow a nearly invisible trail from decades ago, possibly predicting where their target was heading even before their target knew where they were going.

Charismatic types should be able to essentially talk an entire country into giving this one stranger all of their treasure, be able to essentially insert themselves into someone's backstory by being so believable that the person they're talking to are sure "Yeah, I've always know this person..." Essentially, you listen to this person for a minute, they're your best friend in the world and you'd be willing to go to Hell and back for them. Even reality might begin to believe their lives, as things start conveniently popping up to support their claims (pictures retroactively changing to include them in it, their names showing up in wills to wealthy people they never met, etc.)

Those with a high Constitution essentially don't need food, water, sleep or maybe even oxygen for long periods of time... Diseases and poisons rarely affect them, if at all. Being decapitated isn't immediately fatal to this person and they could probably be saved if their severed head is reattached to them.

Those with high Dexterity could take whatever's going on when a Rogue evades an explosion entirely to another level and allow them to phase through solid objects. Instead of climbing up the building, they could essentially run up it or just run on air.

Being able to hide themselves really well, such as becoming someone half your weight/height or some such.

The ability to be able to terrify someone into deciding, "No, I'm not fighting this person" through paralysis or being frightened to death. Possibly as a passive effect that works in a radius (I recall someone mentioning that Fighters had something similar to an Aura of Fear in an earlier edition, but that was a while ago so I can't recall the thread or subforum) Anyone who falls prey to this either can't attack this person or will do whatever they say to make this person leave faster. These types of people are able to intimidate things that would normally not be intimidated by our standards, such as plants or undead... If this person gets angry, everyone nearby starts having negative reactions and the area itself might begin to react through violent tremors.

The ability to self-buff (and arguably transform). Cu Chulainn had his Warp Spasm that increased his power immensely, Sun Wukong had his War God form, Dante has his Devil Trigger which increases his regeneration and gives him more options, Beorn could become a bear, etc.

Interplanar travel... Such as being able to cut a hole into another location in space-time or some other means.

More actions during a round, as I'm sure we've all seen that one character in fiction that's so much faster than the others that they strike multiple times compared to a normal person's one or something along those lines. This could also apply to higher movement speeds.

Save or Die/Save or Suck effects from attacks (or the aforementioned ability of terrifying people).

The ability to harm spirits in some form or another, or destroy souls. If my much higher level martial wants to kill a lower CR Lich... Why can't they just destroy their physical shell and soul in one fell swoop if they're much more powerful than them, for example?

Regeneration to the point where someone is very difficult to kill without specific instructions... Sort of like a Lich now that I think about it, only not undead.

Damage Resistance, as we're all aware of Achilles or whatever character being so tough that damage doesn't do anything to them.

Resistance to magical effects in some degree.

This one is a bit iffy, but minionmancy. Sun Wukong could make clones out of his hairs, Superman could make copies of himself, Goku Black could summon clones of himself and Naruto can summon his Shadow Clones.

The ability to interact with the abstract/conceptual... Essentially, a thief that can steal your memories/unlock your heart/unlock someone's potential (imagine the Skeleton Key from Skyrim being revealed to be able to unlock your potential), a warrior that can kill parts of your personality (such as defiance) to make you more docile/cleave away at your rationale to make you into a crazed berserker/destroy your wounds to effective "heal" you/"destroying" any future they don't want to get a desired outcome or something to those effects. There was a class based on this idea on this sub-forum IIRC, but I can't remember the name of it at the moment.

hmmm, my big issue with this isn't so much the power scale, thats all fine, after all thats kinda the point of the thread. However, many of these things are explicitly supernatural effects. they're 'magic' that you just wouldn't call 'magic'. Im more looking for things that are like 'surpass even the strongest realistic expectations of a human, but are still explicitly theortetically possible *if only we were X enough*.

ideas in here that i do like:

-Melee types should be able to smash through solid stone, hurl boulders at enemies/to damage far away targets/to build bridges like Finn McCool or just affect the environment in some way
-Those with a high Constitution essentially don't need food, water, sleep or maybe even oxygen for long periods of time
-Ranged types should be capable of using their eyes to see well over what is accepted as the human limit,
-Observant types being able to essentially read someone so well they might as well be telepathic for example, such as taking a casual glance at someone and figuring out their probable occupation, marital status, childhood and skillset (really that whole paragraph)
-Charismatic types should be able to essentially talk an entire country into giving this one stranger all of their treasure, be able to essentially insert themselves into someone's backstory by being so believable that the person they're talking to are sure "Yeah, I've always know this person..."
-Being able to hide themselves really well, such as becoming someone half your weight/height or some such. (provisionally, i wouldn't want it to be a literal transoformation. but being *that good* at disguising yourself is fine
-The ability to be able to terrify someone into deciding, "No, I'm not fighting this person" through paralysis or being frightened to death. (again, provisionally.)

as for:
Why can't they just destroy their physical shell and soul in one fell swoop if they're much more powerful than them, for example?
that would be because the liches soul isn't inside the physical shell. thats literally the entire point of a phylactery. But i do agree with giving them the ability to bypass damage resistances, in fact that was one of my original suggestions. I'd even be ok with extending that to allowing certain character to be able to smash phylacteries (something thats not supposed to be able to be done outside of certain circumstances).

[Unoriginal]

Want to Climb a wall and not risk falling? Take 10.

In 5e, if there is no risk of falling, then there is no check for climbing, it's an auto-success.



Want to sneak by an enemy? Take 10. Keep your balance while on a small ledge? Take 10.

Neither of those would work with the "Take 10" rules, as risking to have an enemy notice you or risking to fall counts as being threatened.



Clearly this can’t happen, character incompetence is a popular GM assumption

Then those GMs have an incorrect assumption


and is further reinforced by the system.

Incorrect. For starter, 5e clearly says that any task that has no meaningful consequences for failure should be an auto-success. And there is a reason why bounded accuracy is a thing and the highest possible DC for an ability check is 30.

[heavyfuel]

In 5e, if there is no risk of falling, then there is no check for climbing, it's an auto-success.

Neither of those would work with the "Take 10" rules, as risking to have an enemy notice you or risking to fall counts as being threatened.

Incorrect, on both accounts.


At the GM’s option, climbing a slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds requires a successful Strength (Athletics) check.

keep in mind that you can take 10 on your Hide and Move Silently checks whenever you aren’t being threatened or distracted.

Would like to venture other incorrect assumptions about the games or will these two sufice?

[HPisBS]

"Climbing a slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds" has an inherent risk of failure - one that puts you at risk of falling. Which means it's not really appropriate to skip the check in 5e, and doesn't meet the criteria for taking 10 in 3.5.

[heavyfuel]

"Climbing a slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds" has an inherent risk of failure - one that puts you at risk of falling. Which means it's not really appropriate to skip the check in 5e, and doesn't meet the criteria for taking 10 in 3.5.

Can you cite any passage that says "risk of failure" means you can't take 10 in 3.5? Cuz that's not how Take 10 works.

The example about taking in the Player's Handbook is about the Climb skill.

"Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help (such as using Climb to ascend a knotted rope, or using Heal to give a wounded PC long-term care)"

[Unoriginal]

Incorrect, on both accounts.




Would like to venture other incorrect assumptions about the games or will these two sufice?

1) a slippery wall/ a wall with few handholds is precisely NOT a wall where there is "no risk of falling". If there is a risk of failing, then a check is warranted, if there is no risk, there is no roll. You are the one with the incorrect assumption here.

2) I admit I did not remember that part, but I sincerely can't imagine a situation where an adventurer would try to Hide and Move Silently without being threatened. Unless there is no one to see/hear you or if there are people who can see/hear you but it doesn't matter if they do, in which case I don't see why you would roll at all.

Would you have an example of such a situation, please, so I can no longer be ignorant on that topic?

[Makorel]

If we're going to fix the problem by adding new rules, we also have to convince people that Martials are allowed to do things the rules [already] permit them to do.


This is why I love and hate Monks. There's a part of me that pictures Fighters and Rogues as just "the regular guy" and so my expectations are tempered for them. I can get why they're understated in their design even if I shouldn't be accepting of that. The Monk, however, is about self improvement, about breaking your limit and going beyond what's possible and making that your new standard and doing it again. The Monk fantasy has so much more room to go absolutely ****ing bananas and they just don't go far enough. By level 20 Monks should be so fast they are effectively teleporting. Their senses should be so honed that time actually stops for them. If not ki blasts then they should be able to project their will at their foes and crush them with it. They should be strong enough to break down castle walls and forcecages and the walls between the mortal plane and the astral plane with their punches. I think I need to rewatch the new Dragon Ball movie now.

[kazaryu]

take 10 discussion, et. Al.

So, the basic purpose of a take 10 is already covered in 5e. Both in passive skills (something that is imo underused) and in just saying 'hey, dont need to make them roll if thebroll doesnt matter'.

The relevance of take 10 rules would imo be im that 3.x you could get feats that allowed you to take 10 on checks...whenever. essentially a more specific version of reliable talent (except still weaker, since reliable talent is a floor, whereas if you choose to not take 10 then you can then fail the roll.

And thats not imo a bad idea..its a bit beyond the scope of this thread, but still not a bad idea

[HPisBS]

Can you cite any passage that says "risk of failure" means you can't take 10 in 3.5? Cuz that's not how Take 10 works.

The example about taking in the Player's Handbook is about the Climb skill.

"Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help (such as using Climb to ascend a knotted rope, or using Heal to give a wounded PC long-term care)"

Sorry, I should've explicitly said that the criteria the climbing a wall that's slippery or has few handholds didn't meet was "not being threatened." Put another way: An obvious risk of falling (due to being slippery) = threatened. Threatened = can't take 10.

That take-10-to-Climb quote seems to also support this line of reasoning. Climbing a knotted rope is a far cry from climbing a slippery wall / a wall with few good handholds.


Now, have we digressed enough yet? Ready to get back to discussing what the upper limits of mundane martials should be, given that martials' abilities are mostly at-will?

⤷ Speaking of which, I think lvl 18 BMs should get to default to a d6 to make their Maneuvers free, like a lvl 14 Swords Bard can with their Flourishes. Of course, they'd need to be limited to 1 default / turn for this to be remotely balanced.

[heavyfuel]

Sorry, I should've explicitly said that the criteria the climbing a wall that's slippery or has few handholds didn't meet was "not being threatened." Put another way: An obvious risk of falling (due to being slippery) = threatened. Threatened = can't take 10.

That take-10-to-Climb quote seems to also support this line of reasoning. Climbing a knotted rope is a far cry from climbing a slippery wall / a wall with few good handholds.

A knotted rope had an obvious risk of falling in 3.5 what with Armor Check Penalty. Full plate and a heavy shield meant -8 to your Climb check, so even climbing a knoted rope would be very difficult for, say, a Cleric with not super high Str.

My point is: Let characters do stuff consistently, even if there's a risk of failure. This is directly tied with what OP asked for, which is "what are some htings martials should be able to do"

"Do stuff consistently" (by means of a Take 10 or similar rule) is a valid suggestion.


So, the basic purpose of a take 10 is already covered in 5e. Both in passive skills (something that is imo underused) and in just saying 'hey, dont need to make them roll if thebroll doesnt matter'.

The biggest problem with Passive skills is that they 100% DM dependant, with the exception of Passive Perception.

The DM decides when you're using Passive checks and when you're not. You, the player, don't get to say you're using your Passive check and when you have to rely on sheer luck to do something your character should reasonably be able to do.

And because of Bounded Accuracy, that means you'll be failing about a third of the rolls on something that is expected of your character.

So yeah, a good DM can definitely help players there. Unfortunately, as pointed out by Xervous, characters being incompetent is something a lot of DMs enjoy.

[JNAProductions]

So yeah, a good DM can definitely help players there. Unfortunately, as pointed out by Xervous, characters being incompetent is something a lot of DMs enjoy.

No amount of rules will fix a bad DM.

Which is not to say the rules shouldn't help guide new DMs to a good game experience, but the argument that "Bad DMs will make for a bad experience" is not something the rules can solve.

[AntiAuthority]

hmmm, my big issue with this isn't so much the power scale, thats all fine, after all thats kinda the point of the thread. However, many of these things are explicitly supernatural effects. they're 'magic' that you just wouldn't call 'magic'. Im more looking for things that are like 'surpass even the strongest realistic expectations of a human, but are still explicitly theortetically possible *if only we were X enough*.

It's why I said it would vary from what martial means from person to person. I get what you mean, but technically even the super strong part could be considered "magic but without being called magic."

For example, no matter how strong the strongest human in the world is, and say they could bench 5000 tons or so... If I try to pick up a tank, part of it would come off in my hands because of all that pressure in one spot. (Somehow) Lifting it over my head would just be me getting pushed into the ground, as I'd essentially turn myself into a stake and the tank would be the hammer shoving me down. It's why Superman apparently has an invisible forcefield around his body, but plenty of other characters don't need an explanation for why they can blatantly ignore physics while not being magic, but Hercules and Cu Chulainn had no such explanations for why they could lift impossibly heavy things without the objects crumbling apart in their hands.

Theoretically, I could make the case that that elemental control is just as "We could do it if we were X" as being able to sunder a mountain in half. For example, I can hit the ground with a weapon and make a small hole in the dirt, a fantastic character could hit the ground with a weapon and form a valley... I could accidentally fry a computer because of electric shock if I got poking around inside it, while a fantastic character could incinerate a building because the electricity in their body was scaled up to a fantastic level along with super strength. Superman's ice breath is built on the same principle, as blowing on someone can feel cool, blowing on someone to a fantastic level creates ice breath (or fire breath? I don't know). Even causing explosions with attacks isn't really magic in nature, as you could throw (incredibly fast speeds, but still) something rather small at something and cause an explosion from all that energy dispersing, depending on how fast it was traveling... That's just super speed and how the Flash's Infinite Mass Punch works (as well as kinetic weaponry and the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs). You could get really creative with what "things we can do but highly exaggerated" are with this in mind.

It's why I'd call such abilities fantastic rather than magical. So "anything impossible = fantastic" as opposed to "anything impossible = magic." I'd consider magic to be spells, as in requiring material components, incantations, rituals, etc. But this comes down to taste, I've noticed.


that would be because the liches soul isn't inside the physical shell. thats literally the entire point of a phylactery. But i do agree with giving them the ability to bypass damage resistances, in fact that was one of my original suggestions. I'd even be ok with extending that to allowing certain character to be able to smash phylacteries (something thats not supposed to be able to be done outside of certain circumstances).


Fair enough, but I was more getting at, "The lich is controlling this body somehow... So when I strike the lich's body down, I'm hurting them through the link connecting them to this body." Best analogy I can think of is imagine the lich is a sock puppet (this is probably one of the weirdest analogies)... I hit the puppet and injure the hand that was controlling it. Or if they're a marionette, when I damage the marionette, it basically sets the strings on fire and burns the hand of whoever was pulling them.

[heavyfuel]

No amount of rules will fix a bad DM.

Which is not to say the rules shouldn't help guide new DMs to a good game experience, but the argument that "Bad DMs will make for a bad experience" is not something the rules can solve.

This is true enough

[Warwick]

No amount of rules will fix a bad DM.

Which is not to say the rules shouldn't help guide new DMs to a good game experience, but the argument that "Bad DMs will make for a bad experience" is not something the rules can solve.

They can't wholly resolve the issue, but having a line in the PHB or wherever to point at can be pretty effective against recalcitrant GMs. Arguably, one of the points of having codified rules is to make up for shortfalls in the GM's ability to improvise answers to questions that arise in the course of the game.

[kazaryu]

⤷ Speaking of which, I think lvl 18 BMs should get to default to a d6 to make their Maneuvers free, like a lvl 14 Swords Bard can with their Flourishes. Of course, they'd need to be limited to 1 default / turn for this to be remotely balanced.

yeah, Im not overall a big fan of power creep, but i agree that if power creep is gonna be a thing, then going back and retroactively updating the things that you're slowly making obsolete is a good thing.


The biggest problem with Passive skills is that they 100% DM dependant, with the exception of Passive Perception.

The DM decides when you're using Passive checks and when you're not. You, the player, don't get to say you're using your Passive check and when you have to rely on sheer luck to do something your character should reasonably be able to do.

well, first of all, there's nothing wrong with a player bringing up the possibility of using a passive check. but that being said, even in 3.x you were reliant on the DM to rule favorably. The difference is that in 3.x era, the rules for taking 10 were more widely used, and understood. in 5e, its analogue, aren't used as much. thats not a problem with the rules not covering the situation you're referring to, its just the culture of the game. as i said, passive checks are underutilized imo.

that being said you've also missed the point of my post. there's objectively an attempt in the rules to create an analogue to taking 10. However, its only rogues that are able to do it in combat/stressful situations. and *that* is whats missing from 5e. in 3.x there were feats that allowed you to take 10 in situations that the base rules didn't allow. like in combat. like there's literally a feat that would let you take 10...on an intimidate check....to inflict a condition on an enemy. and this is in an era where skill checks are all against a static DC, not opposed rolls. So basically you had a guaranteed success against creatures whos DC was below your take 10 result. which is cool as ****.


It's why I said it would vary from what martial means from person to person
right, and im trying to clarify exactly what im looking for lol. no shade meant to be thrown your way, if i could think of good examples to be more clear then i woulda included them.

maybe a better way to describe it is like...i'd rather exaggerate 'human' capabilities...maybe. idk. but things like 'walking on air' are very clearly (imo) beyond the scope of the examples i gave. and im not looking to build martials into literal superheroes. even a 24 str barbarian IMO isn't even close to supermans strength. eh...its fine i guess. i just gotta accept that not everyone is gonna understand exactly what i mean lol. still you did have some good ideas.

[Justin Sane]

They've all been triggered by a complain that Martials don't have out of combat options built in, and Full Casters have a glut of them. I don't personally agree, but that's neither here nor there.

And yet the fix almost always seems to be to give Martials more combat prowess, often to the point their already inhuman abilities are Wuxia/Anime. Which misses the point entirely.I'm going to agree on this one - to me, the greatest disparity isn't in combat power - it's narrative power. Nothing a Martial can do will change the adventure's plot as much as a well placed Comprehend Languages, or Suggestion, or Create Food And Water, or...


It's why I'd call such abilities fantastic rather than magical. So "anything impossible = fantastic" as opposed to "anything impossible = magic." I'd consider magic to be spells, as in requiring material components, incantations, rituals, etc. But this comes down to taste, I've noticed.We wouldn't be having this conversation if only 5e had kept 3.5's Extraordinary, Supernatural and Spell-like ability classification system. Not to say it was perfect, but it was definitely a nail the "martials can't have nice stuff" coffin.

[AntiAuthority]

right, and im trying to clarify exactly what im looking for lol. no shade meant to be thrown your way, if i could think of good examples to be more clear then i woulda included them.

maybe a better way to describe it is like...i'd rather exaggerate 'human' capabilities...maybe. idk. but things like 'walking on air' are very clearly (imo) beyond the scope of the examples i gave. and im not looking to build martials into literal superheroes. even a 24 str barbarian IMO isn't even close to supermans strength. eh...its fine i guess. i just gotta accept that not everyone is gonna understand exactly what i mean lol. still you did have some good ideas.

No offense taken, I get you're interested in mythological feats of prowess. Reason I was bringing up superheroes is because superheroes are essentially modern day mythology characters with their fantastic abilities (Superman was inspired by Hercules for example) so figured it would make sense to include them.



We wouldn't be having this conversation if only 5e had kept 3.5's Extraordinary, Supernatural and Spell-like ability classification system. Not to say it was perfect, but it was definitely a nail the "martials can't have nice stuff" coffin.

Yeah, that might have helped... A 3.PF designer (https://seankreynolds.wordpress.com/2014/06/04/ex-su-and-martial-characters/) wrote a blog post on how the Extraordinary, Supernatural and Spell-like abilities could be improved upon to give martials nice things.