Portent vs. Portent

[Eldariel]

So, if two diviners want to Portent the same roll (say, one is making a save and wants to make it a 20 and the other wants to make it a 1), how do you determine who "blinks" first? The way I read it, it seems like it's perfectly okay for any number of Diviners to affect the same roll and the subsequent one will simply override the previous one, but what order would you use to determine the order in which this "stack" is emptied?

Initiative order? So the one with higher Initiative always loses? Or the without-precedent inverse Initiative order that would seem to work more as intended (that is, higher Initiative being advantageous)?

Or would you say that if one sets it to something, the other always has the opportunity to respond regardless of Initiative? So basically if there's another Diviner waiting with a Portent roll, using Portent would be a waste of time?

[JNAProductions]

First off, no NPC in the books has, to my knowledge, Portent. So this situation should be pretty rare.

Second off, not RAW at all, but I'd rule that it'd be an opposed casting stat check, with proficiency. So let's say a level 2 Diviner with 16 Int is trying to Banish a level 15 Diviner with 20 Int, hoping to use their low roll to bypass any protections the high-level Wizard has.

It'd be a roll-off, of 1d20+5 versus 1d20+10, meaning the higher level and better statted Wizard is more likely to have it work. I would ALSO say that, if they happen to tie, Portent does nothing, and the roll proceeds normally.

[Amnestic]

So, if two diviners want to Portent the same roll (say, one is making a save and wants to make it a 20 and the other wants to make it a 1), how do you determine who "blinks" first? The way I read it, it seems like it's perfectly okay for any number of Diviners to affect the same roll and the subsequent one will simply override the previous one, but what order would you use to determine the order in which this "stack" is emptied?

Initiative order? So the one with higher Initiative always loses? Or the without-precedent inverse Initiative order that would seem to work more as intended (that is, higher Initiative being advantageous)?

Or would you say that if one sets it to something, the other always has the opportunity to respond regardless of Initiative? So basically if there's another Diviner waiting with a Portent roll, using Portent would be a waste of time?

Either initiative order (higher initiative gets their desired result - they act faster, so their Portent 'sets' reality) or with a contested Arcana check between the two.

[nickl_2000]

There is no RAW for this, but initiative order makes sense to me

[JackPhoenix]

First off, no NPC in the books has, to my knowledge, Portent. So this situation should be pretty rare.

Diviner from VGtM does, though it works slightly differently than PC version.

[elyktsorb]

Well it would have to happen simultaneously since if someone used Portent first, another person then couldn't use Portent on that roll, you can only use Portent to replace rolls if someone attempted to use Portent to replace another characters Portent it wouldn't work since Portent doesn't work on Portent dice. Because Portent dice aren't an Attack Roll, and Ability Check, or a Saving Throw roll so Portent dice can't be used to replace other Portent dice.

Furthermore you're technically supposed to use Portent before the roll even occurs, so the idea that two players would want to use Portent on the same roll would likely be discussed between them before the roll is made, and I can't imagine too many situations where 1 Portent user would want the opposite kind of roll from a specific creature that another Portent user wants.

[Eldariel]

Well it would have to happen simultaneously since if someone used Portent first, another person then couldn't use Portent on that roll, you can only use Portent to replace rolls if someone attempted to use Portent to replace another characters Portent it wouldn't work since Portent doesn't work on Portent dice. Because Portent dice aren't an Attack Roll, and Ability Check, or a Saving Throw roll so Portent dice can't be used to replace other Portent dice.

Furthermore you're technically supposed to use Portent before the roll even occurs, so the idea that two players would want to use Portent on the same roll would likely be discussed between them before the roll is made, and I can't imagine too many situations where 1 Portent user would want the opposite kind of roll from a specific creature that another Portent user wants.

Diviner A Hideous Laughters Diviner B and tries to make his save 1. Diviner B wants to make his save 20.

If the diviners are against one another, such a result would be natural.

[elyktsorb]

Diviner A Hideous Laughters Diviner B and tries to make his save 1. Diviner B wants to make his save 20.

If the diviners are against one another, such a result would be natural.

I mean if that's how you want to rule it, technically I think it would go to whomever announced the action first, since once one person Portents the roll, another person cannot Portent it.

That said this situation is like several thousand to one odds chances of happening, because. A, two players on the same team wouldn't want the rolls to be opposite, unless one of them was secretly evil and that's a whole other can of worms. And B, if the DM has a character that can use Portent, they would technically have to use the portent roll before even they made the save, and chances are the DM is going to be able to use their characters Portent before a player can use their Portent.

[Lupine]

I would rule that they cancel each other out.

[ATHATH]

I mean if that's how you want to rule it, technically I think it would go to whomever announced the action first, since once one person Portents the roll, another person cannot Portent it.

That said this situation is like several thousand to one odds chances of happening, because. A, two players on the same team wouldn't want the rolls to be opposite, unless one of them was secretly evil and that's a whole other can of worms. And B, if the DM has a character that can use Portent, they would technically have to use the portent roll before even they made the save, and chances are the DM is going to be able to use their characters Portent before a player can use their Portent.
I'd go with the "whoever calls a Portent on the roll first gets it" interpretation as well.

Also, two Diviners in the same party could definitely try to use Portent against one another if, say, one of them was Dominated.

[Anymage]

I'd go with the "whoever calls a Portent on the roll first gets it" interpretation as well.

I'd rather either a roll-off or deciding that such conflicting uses muddle the threads of fate and the roll proceeds as normal. Having it register based off of who speaks first at the table encourages being the guy who always pipes up first, and you don't want to encourage players talking over each other.

[jas61292]

Arguably, RAW, its first come first served. Once one says they apply Portent, the other cannot apply it, because there is no longer a roll for them to take the place of. But I think that is dumb. In terms of what is going on in world, Portent is not the diviner forcing something to become reality. Its just a weird mechanical way of implementing that they had seen a glimpse of the future, and knew what was about to happen. If two diviners had opposing visions, I would thus say the best way of representing which is correct would probably be an opposed check, probably with Intelligence. Whoever gets better saw the true vision.

And while this does mean a portent can be "wrong," with the errata that said something that replaces a roll can only replace one die, this is hardly the only situation where that can happen.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I'd say they cancel eachother out, no particular reason but that feels right.

[Chronos]

Another wrinkle: What if you have two diviners on the same side who both want to use Portent? Maybe they don't know each other well, and either don't know that the other is a diviner, or don't know that they're allies. But both know that they want the monster to fail its save. As chance would have it, both of them have low portents available, say a 2 and a 5, either of which would be sufficient to force a failure. If you rule that two portents means normal roll, then the monster could escape its fate and succeed even though two diviners are both trying to force it to fail.

Or maybe, the same situation, except that unbeknownst to either diviner, the monster has a really good save bonus, and so the 5 would actually be enough to give it a success (but the 2 would still fail). On the one hand, that's the chance you take when you use Portent: Sometimes your roll isn't extreme enough when you thought it would be. But on the other, if the guy with the 5 ends up getting his roll used, he's going to be really regretting that the other one didn't win whatever sort of contest you set up.

[Xetheral]

Crawford has said (https://mobile.twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/966497822714441728) that multiple diviners can use Portent on the same roll, and that the rule on XGTE 77 is used to determine the order in which they apply.

For reference, XGTE 77 says that when multiple effects would happen at the same time, the order of resolution is chosen by whomever is running the PC/NPC whose turn it is.

[Eldariel]

Crawford has said (https://mobile.twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/966497822714441728) that multiple diviners can use Portent on the same roll, and that the rule on XGTE 77 is used to determine the order in which they apply.

For reference, XGTE 77 says that when multiple effects would happen at the same time, the order of resolution is chosen by whomever is running the PC/NPC whose turn it is.

Wow. Holy hell, I can't basically even imagine a dumber rule for this. And this nonsense out of all the rather interesting alternatives is RAI? Yeah, Rule 0.