DMM (Heighten), Reserve Feats and low Wis

[TalonOfAnathrax]

I'd been thinking about using Flaws to take DMM (Heighten), Heighten Spell and Fiery Burst at level 1 on a Cleric with the Fire Domain (for burning hands, the only [Fire] spell Clerics have at level 1 AFAIK). Unless I've misunderstood how the feats work, should allow a level 1 cleric to deal 4d6 fire damage each round in a small AoE.
I then started wondering if I should take Dread Necromancer at level 2 to boost that fire damage to 7d6 (going for a Theurge later). But I don't have Wis 17 at that level, and Wis 17 seems necessary to cast a spell heightened to level 7 : is there a way around this?

Sorcerers have the blood of Siberys ACF, for example. Do Clerics have something similar?

[Troacctid]

Your main problem, unless I'm mistaken, is that DMM happens as you cast the spell. Reserve feats require you to have a spell of that level prepared and specifically not cast it.

[Vaern]

Your main problem, unless I'm mistaken, is that DMM happens as you cast the spell. Reserve feats require you to have a spell of that level prepared and specifically not cast it.

I'm in agreement with this. Reserve feats look at spells as they sit in your spell slots, and DMM doesn't apply to spells until you are in the process of casting them.

The only time I've encountered a questionable scenario involving reserve feats and metamagic was when I once played an elemental savant. I had a number of fire and acid spells known but, due to having chosen water/cold as my elemental specialty, every spell I cast automatically had energy substitution (cold) applied to it.
Note that the elemental specialty ability applies this substitution as the spell is being cast rather than when it is prepared, so even if I had been a wizard rather than a sorcerer at the time I would have prepared Orb of Fire as a [Fire] spell in a fourth-level spell slot and cast it as Orb of Fire [Cold]. By RAW I should not have been able to use my fourth-level spell slots for a cold reserve feat because I had no actual cold spells known or prepared of that level, but the DM ruled that we could make an exception on the grounds that the ability applied automatically when I cast a spell and I was therefore literally incapable of casting those spells as anything other than cold.

[Zanos]

The most common way I've seen reserve feats 'abused' with this is to either take heighten + earth spell to get 1 over your cap for a bit more damage, or to take precocious apprentice + reserve feat at level 1. You only have to make a check with precocious apprentice if you're actually casting the spell. 2d6 fire damage at will in 4 squares is still pretty damn good at level 1.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Your main problem, unless I'm mistaken, is that DMM happens as you cast the spell. Reserve feats require you to have a spell of that level prepared and specifically not cast it.
Aww. This makes a lot of sense, thanks for pointing it out.
In the past I've played a fire-using Sorcerer with Heighten spell who learned burning hands and went "Heighten Spell lets me cast it at my max spell level, so I always deal my max damage as long as I have an unused spell slot of the appropriate level without having to learn fire spells every level"
I presume that such an interpretation is also invalid?


The most common way I've seen reserve feats 'abused' with this is to either take heighten + earth spell to get 1 over your cap for a bit more damage, or to take precocious apprentice + reserve feat at level 1. You only have to make a check with precocious apprentice if you're actually casting the spell. 2d6 fire damage at will in 4 squares is still pretty damn good at level 1.
Yeah, precocious apprentice is what I'd usually use to get it at level 1. Midnight Metamatic also seems pretty great for, because it lets you get 2 or 3 levels higher at the mid levels if you have a little Essentia to fuel it (which ought to help reserve feats stay a little more relevant).

[Troacctid]

The most common way I've seen reserve feats 'abused' with this is to either take heighten + earth spell to get 1 over your cap for a bit more damage, or to take precocious apprentice + reserve feat at level 1. You only have to make a check with precocious apprentice if you're actually casting the spell. 2d6 fire damage at will in 4 squares is still pretty damn good at level 1.
Also doesn't work. Precocious Apprentice doesn't give you a known spell, nor does it allow you to prepare a spell of the appropriate level.


Aww. This makes a lot of sense, thanks for pointing it out.
In the past I've played a fire-using Sorcerer with Heighten spell who learned burning hands and went "Heighten Spell lets me cast it at my max spell level, so I always deal my max damage as long as I have an unused spell slot of the appropriate level without having to learn fire spells every level"
I presume that such an interpretation is also invalid?
Correct. Merely being able to cast a spell of that level is insufficient. You must also have an appropriate spell of that level as a known spell.

[Vaern]

Correct. Merely being able to cast a spell of that level is insufficient. You must also have an appropriate spell of that level as a known spell.
It is worth noting in this case that the Arcane Preparation feat does allow spontaneous casters to prepare spells, mostly for the purpose of applying metamagic without affecting the casting time of the spell. It could be used in this case to prepare a heightened burning hands in one of your highest level spell slots with the intention of never casting it and using it to fuel your reserve feat.

[Troacctid]

It is worth noting in this case that the Arcane Preparation feat does allow spontaneous casters to prepare spells, mostly for the purpose of applying metamagic without affecting the casting time of the spell. It could be used in this case to prepare a heightened burning hands in one of your highest level spell slots with the intention of never casting it and using it to fuel your reserve feat.
Yep, that's the usual way to get around it, although if you're not using Arcane Preparation for anything else, it's probably more economical to use your feat slot to get more spells known instead.

[Crake]

Also doesn't work. Precocious Apprentice doesn't give you a known spell, nor does it allow you to prepare a spell of the appropriate level.


Correct. Merely being able to cast a spell of that level is insufficient. You must also have an appropriate spell of that level as a known spell.

I'm not sure I agree with this interpretation. Fiery burst states "As long as you have a fire spell of 2nd level or higher available to cast". A Sorcerer with heighten spell and burning hands would qualify just the same as a sorcerer with cone of cold and energy substitution (Fire), as those spell/metamagic combos are available to cast, and fulfill the requirements for the reserve feat.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

I'm not sure I agree with this interpretation. Fiery burst states "As long as you have a fire spell of 2nd level or higher available to cast". A Sorcerer with heighten spell and burning hands would qualify just the same as a sorcerer with cone of cold and energy substitution (Fire), as those spell/metamagic combos are available to cast, and fulfill the requirements for the reserve feat.
That sort of reading feel like it would allow people with a scroll of Meteor Swarm in their pocket to deal 9d6 damage though.

[Vaern]

I'm not sure I agree with this interpretation. Fiery burst states "As long as you have a fire spell of 2nd level or higher available to cast". A Sorcerer with heighten spell and burning hands would qualify just the same as a sorcerer with cone of cold and energy substitution (Fire), as those spell/metamagic combos are available to cast, and fulfill the requirements for the reserve feat.
That's arguable. You're capable of casting burning hands at a higher level, but your existing spells must first be modified to make it happen. You have a higher level fire spell available to cast in the same way that a blacksmith with an iron ingot has a sword available to sell.

[Zanos]

Also doesn't work. Precocious Apprentice doesn't give you a known spell, nor does it allow you to prepare a spell of the appropriate level.
Reserve feats only care about casting, and precocious apprentice specifically uses the word 'cast'.

That sort of reading feel like it would allow people with a scroll of Meteor Swarm in their pocket to deal 9d6 damage though.
As spell-trigger items, scrolls are activated, not cast. There might be something in the scroll description that contradicts what I just said; I haven't gone through it recently.

[Crake]

That's arguable. You're capable of casting burning hands at a higher level, but your existing spells must first be modified to make it happen. You have a higher level fire spell available to cast in the same way that a blacksmith with an iron ingot has a sword available to sell.

I think your analogy to the blacksmith is more appropriate for a wizard with an open spellslot rather than a sorcerer with a metamagiced spell. The sorcerer can, at a moment's notice, turn around and cast that heightened spell, and, with the right feats/ACFs, could even do so without any extra effort whatsoever. It is available to cast in every sense, as long as the spell slot is open.


That sort of reading feel like it would allow people with a scroll of Meteor Swarm in their pocket to deal 9d6 damage though.

Technically using a scroll isn't casting a spell but rather activating a spell completion magic item, so it wouldn't qualify.

[Vaern]

As spell-trigger items, scrolls are activated, not cast. There might be something in the scroll description that contradicts what I just said; I haven't gone through it recently.
The SRD never says anything about "casting a spell from a scroll," only that the scroll is activated and is similar to casting a spell for the purpose of things like ASF.
It does, however, use language like "casting a spell from a staff" in the staff description, so you may arguably have a spell available to cast when wielding a staff... I'd personally let this slide in the case of spells on a runestaff.


I think your analogy to the blacksmith is more appropriate for a wizard with an open spellslot rather than a sorcerer with a metamagiced spell. The sorcerer can, at a moment's notice, turn around and cast that heightened spell, and, with the right feats/ACFs, could even do so without any extra effort whatsoever. It is available to cast in every sense, as long as the spell slot is open.
I can see it going either way with sorcerers, honestly. I'll crack open the book later and see if it says anything about metamagic in the reserve feat overview, but barring a specific mention of it I'd just leave the legality of the shenanigan to rule 0.

[Troacctid]

I'm not sure I agree with this interpretation. Fiery burst states "As long as you have a fire spell of 2nd level or higher available to cast". A Sorcerer with heighten spell and burning hands would qualify just the same as a sorcerer with cone of cold and energy substitution (Fire), as those spell/metamagic combos are available to cast, and fulfill the requirements for the reserve feat.

Reserve feats only care about casting, and precocious apprentice specifically uses the word 'cast'.
"2nd-level fire spell available to cast" for a sorcerer means that you have a 2nd-level fire spell as a spell known and an available spell slot of 2nd level or higher. This is the explicit definition in the book (CM 37). Uses the word "definition of 'available to cast'" and everything. Do you know any 2nd-level fire spells? No, only a 1st-level one. So no dice.

As Vaern already noted, the definition is different for prepared casting, so if you have Arcane Preparation, it's another story.

[Zanos]

Sorcerer/Bard spells known is defined as 'knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement.' Precocious apprentice seems fine to qualify for that as long as you acquired the feat as part of level advancement, unless you want to argue that learning a spell via extra spell or somesuch doesn't count for reserve feats.

[Troacctid]

Sorcerer/Bard spells known is defined as 'knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement.' Precocious apprentice seems fine to qualify for that as long as you acquired the feat as part of level advancement, unless you want to argue that learning a spell via extra spell or somesuch doesn't count for reserve feats.
At no point, however, does Precocious Apprentice grant the spell as a spell known. In fact, if you qualify for Fiery Burst, then it doesn't grant any spell at all, just an empty slot, because:

Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school that is not barred to you. You can cast that spell once per day. In effect, you have an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used to cast the chosen spell, and cannot be used for any other purpose. If you cannot cast 2nd-level spells yet, you must succeed on a caster level check (DC 8) to successfully cast the spell; if you fail, you miscast the spell to no effect. Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances.

When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the previous benefit described above. Instead, you simply have an extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you may use to prepare (or spontaneously cast, if you are a spontaneous caster) 2nd-level or lower spells as you normally would.
Fiery Burst requires you to be able to cast 2nd-level spells, so there is no way to qualify for it while retaining the 1/day spell from Precocious Apprentice.

[Darg]

If this is going to get really really into the legalese, you have wizard and archivist. Both classes require a book of spells. Both classes have a known list based on spells written in their book. Copy 2nd level spells into the book and they become known even if you are level 1. There is a feat called Alacritous Cogitation that lets the wizard and archivist spontaneously cast spells (and let's them cast longer than full round casts in 1 round). This qualifies them for Versatile Spellcaster. This, combined with spells known of second level, let's them cast 2nd level spells. There is no real argument against this combo for early access/entry.

[Vaern]

The reserve feat overview says that a spontaneous caster must know an appropriate spell and have a spell slot available of that spell's level or higher in order to use the reserve feat's primary ability. I'd say that knowing burning hands and being able to heighten it to 7th level isn't the same as knowing burning hands as a 7th level spell.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Does anyone have an answer to the other part of my question? How can a Cleric cast spells if their Wis is low? Is there a feat or ACF to improve your effective Wis for the purpose of casting spells?

Sorcerers have the Blood of Siberys ACF, for example. Do Clerics have an equivalent?

[Crake]

The reserve feat overview says that a spontaneous caster must know an appropriate spell and have a spell slot available of that spell's level or higher in order to use the reserve feat's primary ability. I'd say that knowing burning hands and being able to heighten it to 7th level isn't the same as knowing burning hands as a 7th level spell.

Personally I'd say if a wizard can prepare a heightened spell and have that count (which they can), then a sorcerer can have the option to heighten a spell they know count without jumping through loopholes like taking the arcane preparation feat. It's not like sorcerers need the extra flak anyway, come on.

[Jack_Simth]

Does anyone have an answer to the other part of my question? How can a Cleric cast spells if their Wis is low? Is there a feat or ACF to improve your effective Wis for the purpose of casting spells?

Sorcerers have the Blood of Siberys ACF, for example. Do Clerics have an equivalent?

The Madness (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/domains.htm#madnessDomain) domain power gives you an Insanity score equal to 1/2 your Cleric level. When casting spells, it adds to your wisdom. For anything else, it subtracts... except once a day.

Edit: Found it. Updated the things I didn't initially remember correctly.

[Zanos]

Does anyone have an answer to the other part of my question? How can a Cleric cast spells if their Wis is low? Is there a feat or ACF to improve your effective Wis for the purpose of casting spells?

Sorcerers have the Blood of Siberys ACF, for example. Do Clerics have an equivalent?
How attached are you to Cleric? There are other divine casters that don't rely as heavily on wisdom. You could also take tainted sorcerer to switch your spellcasting to your taint score, or you could just buy a +wis item, which shouldn't be that expensive in the long run.


At no point, however, does Precocious Apprentice grant the spell as a spell known. In fact, if you qualify for Fiery Burst, then it doesn't grant any spell at all, just an empty slot, because:

Fiery Burst requires you to be able to cast 2nd-level spells, so there is no way to qualify for it while retaining the 1/day spell from Precocious Apprentice.
That's some wacky wording for sure. I agree though that there's no way to slice that which allows qualification. Another rules dysfunction, I suppose.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Also doesn't work. Precocious Apprentice doesn't give you a known spell, nor does it allow you to prepare a spell of the appropriate level.

Correct. Merely being able to cast a spell of that level is insufficient. You must also have an appropriate spell of that level as a known spell.These are incorrect. You must have the spell "available to cast." It doesn't matter how the spell is "available," so long as it is actually a spell (and not a Supernatural Ability or something).

Precocious Apprentice definitely makes a spell "available to cast." It doesn't have to be a spell known or on your class list, so long as it is, indeed, available to cast in some way.

[Troacctid]

These are incorrect. You must have the spell "available to cast." It doesn't matter how the spell is "available," so long as it is actually a spell (and not a Supernatural Ability or something).

Precocious Apprentice definitely makes a spell "available to cast." It doesn't have to be a spell known or on your class list, so long as it is, indeed, available to cast in some way.
It very much matters how it's available. I feel like I already explained this upthread, but Complete Mage defines "available to cast" in a very specific way. Frankly, I'm a little surprised that so many people were apparently unaware of this, but so it goes, I guess. Maybe y'all don't have the book and are only looking at the feat in some sort of online database. I'll help you out.


The primary benefit can only be activated if the caster has a spell of an appropriate variety (of a particular school, subschool, or descriptor) available to cast. The definition of “available to cast” depends on whether the character prepares spells or casts spontaneously from a list of spells known.

A spellcaster who prepares spells each day (such as a wizard) must have an appropriate spell prepared and not yet cast that day. If the character has more than one appropriate spell prepared and uncast, she gains the benefit only from the highest-level spell; she can't gain multiple benefits, or stack benefits, by preparing more than one appropriate spell.

A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher. If the character has more than one appropriate spell known, he gains the benefit only from the highest-level spell for which he has an unused spell slot of that level or higher.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It very much matters how it's available. I feel like I already explained this upthread, but Complete Mage defines "available to cast" in a very specific way. Frankly, I'm a little surprised that so many people were apparently unaware of this, but so it goes, I guess. Maybe y'all don't have the book and are only looking at the feat in some sort of online database. I'll help you out.Yes, by quoting where it explains that, yes, Precocious Apprentice counts.

Thanks for proving me right, I guess.

[Vaern]

Precocious apprentice has some odd wording, and lack thereof. It says you choose a spell, and you have a spell slot that can only be used for that spell. You lose the primary benefit of the feat - being able to cast that one spell - when you gain access to second level spells normally, but retain the extra slot. It doesn't look like the spell itself is a learned as a "spell known" and, in fact, it would seem that you lose your access to that spell if you don't choose to learn it properly when you would normally gain second level spells. It also says that you cast your spell from that slot by making a spellcraft check, though it doesn't say that the spell is prepared or cast spontaneously as normal for your class. Is an ability granted by a feat, it wouldn't be unreasonable for this spell slot and its spell behave in a unique way independent of regular class features. If the spell is neither known by a sorcerer nor prepared by a wizard, it is not "available to cast" for the purposes of reserve feat's for either of them.

[Darg]

When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would.

Due to the wording of the feat, you don't really have the ability to cast second level spells. This disqualifies you from qualifying for reserve feats.