What would an armored monk subclass look like?

[Greywander]

This is slightly inspired by this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616687-Monk-should-wear-Armour-and-use-Staff), but actually this is an issue I've run into before. This is a general issue with trying to multiclass monks, but I've also done work on some different homebrew options for getting more than 20 class levels, and monk has a hard time combining with most other classes, either because of the armor restrictions or because of relying on different ability scores (Moon druid might be the only really good monk combo). So I started wondering what it would look like if there was a specific monk subclass that allowed you to use your monk features while wearing armor.

First off, giving armor proficiencies and allowing your monk features to work in armor could be two separate things. Perhaps the subclass would only allow your monk features to work in armor, but not give you any armor proficiencies. You would then need to either multiclass or grab a feat (or be a mountain dwarf) to actually get the armor proficiencies. Personally, I don't think this is good design; it's one thing to give a class some special bonus if they multiclass, but even with such an ability the class still needs to be viable when straight-classed. So, if the subclass does allow us to use our monk abilities in armor, it really should give us some armor proficiencies. But it doesn't have to, and it doesn't have to give us full proficiencies either; for example, maybe only light and medium armor, no shields or heavy armor, but if we got proficiency elsewhere then those would work, too.

Speaking of shields, that's the second thing. A shield is a straight bonus, giving us an extra +2 AC. Because monks rely on the Martial Arts die, there's not a big reason for them to use two-handed weapons except for something like a shortbow (though sling or darts would work at closer ranges). Point is, most monk builds could easily spare a hand for a shield. As such, when it comes to the concept of an armored monk, we really need to consider shields separately from armor. We might end up giving both, but it's important to understand that they both have very different effects.

When it comes to light armor, a monk with a WIS of 14 or higher has little reason to wear studded leather. While it's conceivable that a monk might opt to not raise WIS in order to get more feats, it's really unlikely that a monk would ever dump WIS entirely (Stunning Strike is too good, and needs WIS to work). I don't really see a straight-classed monk ever wanting to wear light armor, unless you find some really neat magical armor. Where light armor would be useful is in multiclassing, specifically for another class to dip into monk. Maybe you're running a DEX build with PAM (and maybe Elven Accuracy), and need Martial Arts to make spears and quarterstaves DEX weapons. You don't actually get any monk features that use WIS until you get Stunning Strikes at 5th level, so you could easily dump WIS if you're only dipping.

Medium armor is also in a kind of weird place. If you're a DEX build, light armor is usually superior. If you're a STR build, heavy armor is superior. Where medium armor shines is when your primary stat is something other than STR or DEX, which usually means a caster. But monks are not casters. As good as Stunning Strike is, it first requires you to actually hit, which means you need DEX. WIS is a secondary stat for monks. Maybe you could do something with Shillelagh, but that won't affect your unarmed strikes.

Heavy armor is where it gets interesting. A typical monk build usually starts with 16 in both DEX and WIS, meaning they have a naked AC of 16. That's the same AC as chain mail, a common starter heavy armor. Most monks will boost DEX to 20 as soon as they can, boosting their AC to 18. This is the same as plate, but we might be able to afford plate before we could get our DEX up that high. If they also choose to boost WIS, they can eventually get AC to 20, which is equivalent to plate +2. So it really is a trade-off. An armored monk can get their AC up quicker if they have the coin, but an unarmored monk can eventually attain higher AC if they invest in both DEX and WIS. So heavy armor doesn't really get you better AC, but what it does do is suddenly make STR monks viable. Why be a STR monk when you have Martial Arts? Well, maybe you want to grapple and shove.

So, what we generally see is that an armored monk adds more versatility and flexibility. It makes it easier to multiclass, particularly with dips into monk. Unlike Hexblade, though, you don't get the subclass until 3rd level, which is steep for a dip. It also allows options like a STR monk. Personally, I don't think it would break anything for straight-classed monks if they all got this feature at 1st level, but as mentioned when it comes to multiclassing it makes sense to gate it behind a subclass you won't get until 3rd level.

As such, a feature that gives proficiency in light, medium, and heavy armor, and allows you to use your monk features while wearing armor, would, I think, be appropriate for a 3rd level subclass feature on a monk. Such a feature would give additional options, but wouldn't actually make the monk stronger, so it should probably be paired with another 3rd level feature. If they also got shield proficiency, and could use their monk features with shields, then that would certainly be an upgrade, perhaps too strong for a 3rd level feature. While it would make sense to give them together, if we give shields at all, we could also make shields a later class feature.

I might have to sit down and see if I can do a write up of a Way of the Stone Tower monk.

[Lavaeolus]

There are two things that, working within 5e's usual subclass system, are going to be hard to address without just homebrewing them away:


The sudden level 3 shift. In truth, this is something inherent in how D&D 5e does subclasses, but it's of particular note when we're doing a subclass like this. For our first two levels, we're a standard Monk. At level 3, suddenly we're bulked up in chainmail, which hopefully we've just been carrying around and can now change into. It's worse if we're an armored character who wants to multiclass into this Monk subclass; we have to slog our way to Monk 3 before most of our new features actually come online.


Multiclassing prerequisites. Part of the goal here is in making Strength Monk more obtainable and Monk as a whole more flexible. Unfortunately, this directly stands in our way: a heavy-armor or Strength-based Monk would really want to stay single-classed, to avoid the 13 DEX multiclass tax, and that'd go for any STR-focused character wanting to experiment with some light Monk action.

Unfortunately, I admit I don't see a way to really fix these without making direct alterations to the core Monk class. A half-measure would be to allow some ability at Monk 3 that specifically overrides this. Say: "At level 3, if you're using the optional multiclass rules, you now require 13 Wisdom and either 13 Dexterity or 13 Strength to multiclass in or out of Monk."

That's not really a solution I like, though. Is there another way around it? Well, if you stay tied to the multiclass prerequisites, you could try letting Monk keep its Dexterity focus over Strength; perhaps they can now use Dexterity in place of Strength for heavy armor requirements. Of course, aside from this being a kick to the STR stat, this doesn't really fit with the design goals we wanted out of the Armored Monk. And in the long run, it'd be replaced by Unarmored Defense and you'd be back to a standard Monk, unless the Monk got special features/buffs reliant on staying armored.

Putting most of that aside and just focusing on Armored Monk as a single-class, deciding what we want out of the subclass after we've given them armour might help decide what we want this subclass to look like. Personally, if I was a player and saw a Monk class offering me armour, I'd expect some sort of increased defensive capability. Right now, that's not really true; we're a bit more defensive when we start out, but as you point out that comes with the trade-off of eventually being beaten out by a Monk focusing on their stats.

I might also expect to be physically stronger, and ergo good at grappling and shoving, but that does cut into our traditional Monk mobility and put us at increased threat. So subclass features, aside from heightening that element, might also want to address how we'll handle that. Or at least focus on the risk there, and give ways of making that trade-off tempting.

[Greywander]

There are two things that, working within 5e's usual subclass system, are going to be hard to address without just homebrewing them away:


The sudden level 3 shift. In truth, this is something inherent in how D&D 5e does subclasses, but it's of particular note when we're doing a subclass like this. For our first two levels, we're a standard Monk. At level 3, suddenly we're bulked up in chainmail, which hopefully we've just been carrying around and can now change into. It's worse if we're an armored character who wants to multiclass into this Monk subclass; we have to slog our way to Monk 3 before most of our new features actually come online.
Kensei has the same issue. I had a concept for an unarmored adventurer wielding a longsword who was mechanically a Kensei monk, but I can't actually use longswords until 3rd level. It's... definitely a bit strange to deal with. You can get around this by starting at 3rd level, or by refluffing something as something else (e.g. using the shortsword stats for a "longsword" until I actually hit 3rd level). For someone multiclassing into monk, it's still going to be a pain since you can't use most of the monk stuff without taking off your armor, but at least you get ki at 2nd level.


Multiclassing prerequisites. Part of the goal here is in making Strength Monk more obtainable and Monk as a whole more flexible. Unfortunately, this directly stands in our way: a heavy-armor or Strength-based Monk would really want to stay single-classed, to avoid the 13 DEX multiclass tax, and that'd go for any STR-focused character wanting to experiment with some light Monk action.

Personally, I just ignore multiclass stat requirements. I feel like the only reason they exist is (a) to keep new players from accidentally making a terrible build, and (b) to prevent ridiculous multiclass cheese. The problem is that it restricts legitimate builds, such as DEX paladins, as well as quirky but not cheesy builds. A good DM should be willing to hear out your character concept and bend the rules to accommodate you as needed.


unless the Monk got special features/buffs reliant on staying armored.
Actually, I quickly decided that this was a bad idea. I know the Kensei does this with kensei weapons, but I don't like the idea of restricting the player. The whole point of an armored monk is to create more options, so requiring armor for their features to work would just end up restricting them in a different way.


Putting most of that aside and just focusing on Armored Monk as a single-class, deciding what we want out of the subclass after we've given them armour might help decide what we want this subclass to look like. Personally, if I was a player and saw a Monk class offering me armour, I'd expect some sort of increased defensive capability. Right now, that's not really true; we're a bit more defensive when we start out, but as you point out that comes with the trade-off of eventually being beaten out by a Monk focusing on their stats.
I've actually already finished typing up a subclass. I don't know if it's actually any good, but it is at least one example of what an armored monk subclass might look like. You can find the homebrew thread here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616827-Way-of-the-Stone-Tower-(armored-monk-subclass)).

[KorvinStarmast]

What would an armored monk subclass look like? This is a self defeating line of inquiry. Let Kwai Chang Caine be himself. Don't try to force him into being Roland of Roncevalles. (also rendered as Roncevaux).


The first and most famous of these epic treatments was the Old French Chanson de Roland of the 11th century. He was also known as Orlando.

What you suggest is like trying to turn Orlando into Lando Calrissian.

I don't see the point. Too much effort for no payoff.

[Hytheter]

First off, giving armor proficiencies and allowing your monk features to work in armor could be two separate things. Perhaps the subclass would only allow your monk features to work in armor, but not give you any armor proficiencies. You would then need to either multiclass or grab a feat (or be a mountain dwarf) to actually get the armor proficiencies. Personally, I don't think this is good design
...
Speaking of shields, that's the second thing. A shield is a straight bonus, giving us an extra +2 AC. Because monks rely on the Martial Arts die, there's not a big reason for them to use two-handed weapons except for something like a shortbow (though sling or darts would work at closer ranges). Point is, most monk builds could easily spare a hand for a shield. As such, when it comes to the concept of an armored monk, we really need to consider shields separately from armor. We might end up giving both, but it's important to understand that they both have very different effects.

I think you could work with these two pretty easily. Make Shield use the "real" subclass feature - basically just +2 AC. Kensei gets an unreliable version of that plus a minor damage boost, so I think that's about on par. Then grant armour use as basically a little ribbon that only actually adds value if you get proficiency another way. (Optionally you could also grant Light and/or Medium while still barring Heavy without an alternate way of grabbing proficiency). Call it Way of the Turtle or something.

Another approach might be to make it so that Martial Arts is enabled but unarmoured movement is lost. Then you can feel free to grant additional bonuses like shields without being too overpowered. Traditional monks would still get decent benefit (in the form of shields) while keeping unarmoured movement, while for other builds a STR and armour approach becomes viable at the cost of some mobility. Maybe provide some easily doffed "weighted clothes" style armour for mid-battle style switches. :P

You could also just make it a feat.

[Miele]

Monk armor could be a buckler on their offhand (I don't like it) or a simple chestpiece made of leather, plus 2 armbands (martial skill would make them equal to a shield, to deflect blows instead of absorbing them). Despite the widespread common idea of monks fighting without armor and weapons (let's say the "fantasy" idea), this never happened in war-like situations. Both in Japan and China, fighting was done with weapons, training was with weapons first and without weapons only after: postures have small variations between armed and unarmed, but techniques are quite different, it's possible and probably easier to teach weapon fighting and then move to barehanded, the opposite is way harder.

In modern society martial arts training, barehand comes first (easier to teach and wayyyy less dangerous). Mastering weapons is another story. After several years of practice, I consider myself barely competent in a single weapon, the sword (longsword, versatile if you want, lighter than medieval ones), but I'm not sure I'd be fit for war with it (I train after work, not as a job, heh! :smallcool:)

My experience with martial arts suggests me that small (lightweight) reinforced leather pieces would allow a monk to raise their AC without relying on dexterity or wisdom (which I read as "fighting experience"). Letting a monk gain a +2 or +3 AC from such armor wouldn't be wrong at all.

Most common weapons: 1h sabre and shield (infantry) or 2h spear. Farmer village weapons: quarterstaff, knife.

[Man_Over_Game]

There are two things that, working within 5e's usual subclass system, are going to be hard to address without just homebrewing them away:


The sudden level 3 shift. In truth, this is something inherent in how D&D 5e does subclasses, but it's of particular note when we're doing a subclass like this. For our first two levels, we're a standard Monk. At level 3, suddenly we're bulked up in chainmail, which hopefully we've just been carrying around and can now change into. It's worse if we're an armored character who wants to multiclass into this Monk subclass; we have to slog our way to Monk 3 before most of our new features actually come online.


Multiclassing prerequisites. Part of the goal here is in making Strength Monk more obtainable and Monk as a whole more flexible. Unfortunately, this directly stands in our way: a heavy-armor or Strength-based Monk would really want to stay single-classed, to avoid the 13 DEX multiclass tax, and that'd go for any STR-focused character wanting to experiment with some light Monk action.

Unfortunately, I admit I don't see a way to really fix these without making direct alterations to the core Monk class. A half-measure would be to allow some ability at Monk 3 that specifically overrides this. Say: "At level 3, if you're using the optional multiclass rules, you now require 13 Wisdom and either 13 Dexterity or 13 Strength to multiclass in or out of Monk."

That's not really a solution I like, though. Is there another way around it? Well, if you stay tied to the multiclass prerequisites, you could try letting Monk keep its Dexterity focus over Strength; perhaps they can now use Dexterity in place of Strength for heavy armor requirements. Of course, aside from this being a kick to the STR stat, this doesn't really fit with the design goals we wanted out of the Armored Monk. And in the long run, it'd be replaced by Unarmored Defense and you'd be back to a standard Monk, unless the Monk got special features/buffs reliant on staying armored.

Putting most of that aside and just focusing on Armored Monk as a single-class, deciding what we want out of the subclass after we've given them armour might help decide what we want this subclass to look like. Personally, if I was a player and saw a Monk class offering me armour, I'd expect some sort of increased defensive capability. Right now, that's not really true; we're a bit more defensive when we start out, but as you point out that comes with the trade-off of eventually being beaten out by a Monk focusing on their stats.

I might also expect to be physically stronger, and ergo good at grappling and shoving, but that does cut into our traditional Monk mobility and put us at increased threat. So subclass features, aside from heightening that element, might also want to address how we'll handle that. Or at least focus on the risk there, and give ways of making that trade-off tempting.

I like your thought process. I thought a lot of the same things, looking at the Armored Monk concept. I think the realistic solution is just having a Monk feature that allows you to use Heavy Armor and lets you use your Dexterity for the sake of Heavy Armor penalties based on Strength. Or they're tied to a specific type of armor that has unique properties, like the Battlerager.

However, if you are looking for a multiclassing change, like what you mentioned, I'd like to suggest the Prestige Options homebrew in my signature. It covers a lot of these kinds of changes (Strength Monk, Dexterity Barbarian, Intelligence Paladin) that are all thematic and come with additional leveling rules to keep them all in-line with the core rules, and come with justification listed for each Option (there's like ~2 per class). So they all make sense, and they're all fair. Might be your kinda thing.

[heavyfuel]

I think an Armored Monk would be a Fighter Subclass, actually. "Monaistic Archetype"

There's an Unarmed Fighting Style in UA which some people think is broken because it's stronger than the Monk's Martial Arts, but it's actually worse than using weapons. Being better than Martial Arts is not an accomplishment since MA sucks.

Then at level 3 you can gain some Ki and some Ki options (maybe choose one among the 3 available to the monk).

Ki progresses slowly over the levels akin to an EK's spell slots. Maybe start lv 3 with 1 Ki and end lv 20 with 10?

At level 7 you can gain Ki-Empowered Strikes and another Ki option from lv 3.

At lv 10 you can gain Stunning Strike

At lv 15 you can gain the last Ki option and Purity of Body

As the 18th lv capstone you gain Diamond Soul


This neatly sidesteps the lv 3 sudden change since you can play as unarmed yet armored warrior from lv 1