OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[vonBoomslang]

Oh gods damnit, we JUST got that cleric back!

[Zordrath]

Now that's just a mean Cliffhanger, Rich :D

[Vrock Bait]

Dang! That wasn’t what I expected to happen. Poor Durkon.

[Dragonus45]

RC is just like the goblin personification of sunk cost fallacy.

[Going Hereward]

Durkon is running up the score in the "Most Killed Member of the Order" race.

[Kaulguard]

I have been a Redcloak fan for quite some time, but this is just foolish. Self-destructive and foolish.

[thereaper]

I hope he prepared Death Ward.

[KorvinStarmast]

Dear Giant: what a fine strip. I did not see that final three panel reaction coming.

Bravo and well done *applause*

(And, well, rats. Durkon was finally getting to "Hey, we have all of this in common, we can make a deal" with his
"Will you help us? Will you help us save the goblins?")

Oh, and I forgot to mention. Nicely put by Redcloak in panel 5: "Gobbotopia would just be crusade bait." golf clap

[locksmith of lo]

oof! oh man i do not think anyone saw that coming! :smalleek:

*editted typo*

[hroþila]

I think what Durkon's saying is very reasonable, but it all sounds too much like "the Plan is redundant now that Gobbotopia exists", and Redcloak has explicit instructions from the Dark One to reject that line of reasoning. I imagine Redcloak *is* conflicted about it, because calling it quits and focusing on building up the community is something that does appeal to him, but even without explicit instructions it's not something he can do anymore because of the Right-Eye thing.

Also, I guess Durkon's Wind Walk is going to save his ass here? He might need to make one saving throw first, though.

[Fyraltari]

I knew there was no other way this would end but Durkon had me going there. I couldn’t not hope that maybe, maybe, deep inside there was just enough of the goblin that became Redcloak left to see the light.

Great work, Giant.

[wybrand]

What a great dialog this scene has been, and what a mean cliffhanger on this page haha

[Mad Humanist]

So what's the latest hot take from all the youtube commentators about how Redcloak is the good guy here?

[Satherian]

Damn, just as I was expecting RC to agree, she tries to Implosion Durkon (I hope Durkon makes the Fortitude save!)


I hope he prepared Death Ward.

Death Ward doesn't work against Implosion, IIRC

[Procyonpi]

So what do people put the odds at that "Durkon" here is some sort of illusion / sending?

[Dausuul]

Well, Durkon was successful in getting Redcloak to provide a 9th-level spell slot.

[Coyote0715]

I guess we'll get to see what Minrah has been up to...

[Mad Humanist]

Well, Durkon was successful in getting Redcloak to provide a 9th-level spell slot.

Good point. That would be a fore-shadowed Deus ex-machina. If it works that would take the plot in an interesting new direction.

[The_Weirdo]

So what's the latest hot take from all the youtube commentators about how Redcloak is the good guy here?

Never said he was the good guy, not against the Order at least.

That said, I'd not really be surprised if that's a way for him to have Durkon talk to his god, if only hecause of how random and sudden it was.

[knag]

Oh no!!! I hope he makes his saving throw!

[Fyraltari]

So, how does Implosion work, exactly? Is it « if target fails save then Target dies » or would a sufficiently high level target manage to rank the effects?

[KorvinStarmast]

So what do people put the odds at that "Durkon" here is some sort of illusion / sending? I don't know 3.5e well enough for details, but I think there's a hint in panel 1 of strip 1206 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1206.html):
Na, na, nope. Na gonna go ta a second location. We can sit an' talk right here. {Italics Mine}

I think that's an oblique reference to something magical ... I am hoping some 3.5 expert folks can parse that.

[Ornithologist]

I'm not okay with this.

On a practical, like I sat here for a a few minutes letting the brain process, note: Breaking a parley like that is very bad form, and it is going to cost him his dreams and goals next time he tries to actually parley.

[HiddenTrack]

Would really be useful if this was one of those stories where every time a character is killed/close to the bring of death and comes back again, they get stronger. Durkon would in a very strong position.

What's that? EXP penalty? ...dang.

(But nah, seriously, Durkon isn't dead. We can't do the resurrection joke AGAIN.)

[jwhouk]

I think Redcloak just had his final Kick The Dog moment.

And it appears that Durkon will be telling Thor very quickly, "Nae, tha didn'a work."

[RandomOfAmbr]

Long time reader, first time answerer.


Also, I guess Durkon's Wind Walk is going to save his ass here? He might need to make one saving throw first, though.

Implosion specifically doesn't affect gaseous forms and incorporeal creatures.
Wind Walk turns one into gas and has a duration of hour/level.
Durkon and RC never touched.

In other words, holding out hope :)

[Fyraltari]

Good point. That would be a fore-shadowed Deus ex-machina. If it works that would take the plot in an interesting new direction.
That’s not how it works, Thor can’t just yoink Redcloak’s spells as he casts them, else he would have already done so. The Giant clarified that he wants Red to take part in a specific ritual the detail of which he’ll communicate once the goblin has agreed.

Never said he was the good guy, not against the Order at least.

That said, I'd not really be surprised if that's a way for him to have Durkon talk to his god, if only hecause of how random and sudden it was.
That would be incredibly stupid. It is just what it looks like: Redclaok refusing to work with Durkon because he was always going to because of his baggage.

[Dausuul]

So what do people put the odds at that "Durkon" here is some sort of illusion / sending?
Fairly low, just because I don't know of any way Durkon could have done it. I'm not aware of any clerical spell that would allow the illusion to carry on extended conversation and cast spells (Durkon used stone shape to make the table). Anyway, it isn't really his style.

There is a wizard spell, project image, which could do the job, but you can't use it on other people. Vaarsuvius can't project an image of Durkon.

I'm betting Durkon survives this, however. He probably has a death ward effect up, and even if he doesn't, implosion grants a Fortitude save, which Durkon as a dwarf cleric is well equipped to make.

[Studoku]

(Mass) Death Ward works against Implosion, right?

[Schroeswald]

It was going so well! Redcloak you complete and utter moron, Durkon was getting you a good deal.

We all knew it would fall apart soon, but I expected action or Roy to mess it up, not Redcloak to try to kill Durkon.

[Ivrytwr]

I remember seeing Redcloak using that spell for the first time ... Thought it was a neat graphic by Giant.
But on Durkon! Going to have to start punching that frequent resurrections card.

[B. Dandelion]

:smallfrown::smallfrown::smallfrown::smallfrown:

Maybe that should be :smallfrown::smallfurious::smallfrown::smallfuriou s: since I am equal parts heartbroken and enraged.

I didn't think it would end well, but it was getting so hopeful for a while that I began to think something else would have to break things up rather than Redcloak just snapping on a dime like that. What a cruel and short-sighted thing to do.

[MReav]

I hope he prepared Death Ward.

Death Ward won't do anything. Implosion kills people in far different manner than what Death Ward would protect against.

On the plus side, at least he's got his 9th level spell. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html)

[Edea]

Well, technically if Durkon was still under the effect of Wind Walk and he'd been prepping to go back into the gaseous state while Redcloak made up his mind, the Implosion would stop working (it needs to be used on corporeal creatures) and he'd be able to get out of range (600 ft movement speed).

[jamwno]

Yeah, Implosion would be *much* worse if aimed at Elan, Haley, or V. No 'x's in the eyes, so not dead yet. I bet he'll make the save. But where things go next? That's the interesting question...
As an aside, I'm not convinced Death Ward protects against implosion, since it doesn't have the Death tag like Power Word: Kill.

[KorvinStarmast]

And it appears that Durkon will be telling Thor very quickly, "Nae, tha didn'a work." That earned a RL cackle, that did. :smallbiggrin: Thanks.

Implosion specifically doesn't affect gaseous forms and incorporeal creatures.
Wind Walk turns one into gas and has a duration of hour/level.
Durkon and RC never touched.

In other words, holding out hope :) Ok, that's nice, and also I need to go back and see when/if Mass Death Ward was cast?

[The_Weirdo]

That would be incredibly stupid. It is just what it looks like: Redclaok refusing to work with Durkon because he was always going to because of his baggage.

Possible.

I doubt Durkon will die there, however, and he's still under the effect of Wind Walk, so, at least, there's that. That said, if that's what RC is doing, then Rich will have to come up with new ways to ensure goblinkind (which is, it bears reminding, not Redcloak) gets the fair deal it deserves.

[pendell]

Oh gods damnit, we JUST got that cleric back!

Good thing we've got a spare then. I've been expecting something like this since Minrah joined the Order.

HOWEVER, it doesn't mean Durkon's dead yet. SRD Implosion (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm) tells us that a saving throw vs. fortitude will negate the spell, and Durkon has high constitution. He resisted Malack's poison attack without trouble, so I think he has a good chance of resisting implosion as well.

Be that as it may, Durkon has come alone into the enemy camp and now he's up against Redcloak plus allies. I suppose the MITD might save his life, or he might have some kind of contingency against treachery, but this looks very bad for Durkon.

I expect him to be either killed or taken prisoner, causing Minrah to backfill for him. Redcloak has obviously made the determination that 1) He doesn't want this deal 2) The band of adventurers must be eliminated 3) There's no reason to send Durkon back with warning of what will happen. 4) Eliminating the highest level cleric on the team is a great way to start this off.

I don't want to say two wrongs make a right -- because they don't -- but there was always the possibility this would end in violence. By Start of Darkness,


The Dark One himself was slain in a parley by treacherous humans. What you do, comes back to you.


I can understand why Redcloak rejected the deal though. Durkon is well meaning and idealistic, but there's no way he can get the other gods or the other humans to go along with this deal. We know there's going to be a crusade against Gobbotopia by Azure City, and we know Goblins will continue to be walking XP for humans outside towns. There's nothing Durkon can offer that can't be undone by human treachery -- and while Durkon himself is honorable, Tarquin and his crew are decidedly NOT.

I think I agree with Redcloak that the Dark One is going to need some kind of big stick to keep the other gods and the humans honest. The fact is, though, I understand why the other gods aren't willing to let him have the ability to end them. The Snarl is too dangerous -- it could destroy them all and leave nothing behind. Or , perhaps, the REAL plan is for the Dark One to actually use the Snarl to kill all the gods, destroy the world and remake it into a world where HE is the only god.

Of course, if he did this he would eventually lose control and be devoured by it, and nothing would be left.

We'll see how this all plays out, but Durkon's first mistake was not negotiating from a position of strength. For a cleric, he doesn't really seem to have much of a wisdom score.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dr.Zero]

Long time reader, first time answerer.



Implosion specifically doesn't affect gaseous forms and incorporeal creatures.
Wind Walk turns one into gas and has a duration of hour/level.
Durkon and RC never touched.

In other words, holding out hope :)

It seems done on purpose, but the author should houserule a bit wind walk to make it work.
If ww is active and you're in gaseous form, you should look like vapor, which was shown correctly when they were flying in the sky, but not now.
And if you're corporeal, you need 5 rounds to return in gaseous form.

So, according to the rules, ww shouldn't help here.

Technically, therefore, either the author cheats heavily houseruling ww, or it ends with an anti-climatic "Made my saving throw" (which is totally possible, since Durkon is clerci and a dwarf with a bonus in Const and in fortitude against spells to start with.

(I can't think of Durkon being killed, because that would require ANOTHER high level cleric to be fixed)

[Reboot]

(Mass) Death Ward works against Implosion, right?

No. It's an Evocation, not a Death Effect.

[rgrekejin]

...maybe the next strip opens with a pink counterspell?

[Fyraltari]

Possible.

I doubt Durkon will die there, however, and he's still under the effect of Wind Walk, so, at least, there's that.

Oh Durkon isn’t going to die here. I expect the next comic to show his escape with Minrah’s help. The real question is wether this will prompt the rest of the Order to attack Team Evil to « save » their comrade.

[elros]

I think it interesting that Durkon realizes that he made a mistake with Malack, and that he could should not have attacked because Malack was a vampire.
It is great to see him try to move past lawful stupid (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/main/lawfulstupid), just as he is trying to move past being passive.
Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be working out for him again...

[The_Weirdo]

Oh Durkon isn’t going to die here. I expect the next comic to show his escape with Minrah’s help. The real question is wether this will prompt the rest of the Order to attack Team Evil to « save » their comrade.

The other question - if my theory is incorrect, mind - is how this will play out so the goblins get a fair deal. It would be incredibly unsatisfying for them not to.

[warmachine]

Clerics have good Fort save and Dwarves have a CON bonus. Odds should be Durkon's favour. Still surprised Redcloak broke the truce.

[dancrilis]

I kindof want Durkon to die here just for the pseudo-running joke or evil clerics killing him after he tries to pseudo-befriend them (this will be the third after Malack and Hilgya).

On the otherhand he doesn't deserve it - so making his save and leaving via windwalk/word of recall I think would be better.

[EmperorSarda]

HOWEVER, it doesn't mean Durkon's dead yet. SRD Implosion (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm) tells us that a saving throw vs. fortitude will negate the spell, and Durkon has high constitution. He resisted Malack's poison attack without trouble, so I think he has a good chance of resisting implosion as well.


But that's because Dwarves also have a +2 racial bonus vs poison! Which doesn't help against Implosion.

[Linneris]

Sadly, Redcloak failing to listen to reason and attacking Durkon is exactly what I expected.

[RandomOfAmbr]

It seems done on purpose, but the author should houserule a bit wind walk to make it work.
If ww is active and you're in gaseous form, you should look like vapor, which was shown correctly when they were flying in the sky, but not now.
And if you're corporeal, you need 5 rounds to return in gaseous form.

So, according to the rules, ww shouldn't help here.

Technically, therefore, either the author cheats heavily houseruling ww, or it ends with an anti-climatic "Made my saving throw" (which is totally possible, since Durkon is clerci and a dwarf with a bonus in Const and in fortitude against spells to start with.

(I can't think of Durkon being killed, because that would require ANOTHER high level cleric to be fixed)

You're probably right ( Rich has been known to houserule whatever fits the story best and has gone on record multiple times stating that ) ; that being said, dismissing a spell is as easy for a caster as saying "Dismiss Wind Walk" between panels, which might have happened - after all, Durkon doesn't look like vapor anymore.

"Made my saving throw" would be a nice callback to RC's fight with the High Priest of the Twelve Gods though :)

[Fyraltari]

The other question - if my theory is incorrect, mind - is how this will play out so the goblins get a fair deal. It would be incredibly unsatisfying for them not to.
I see several possibilities.

(A) Redcloak is killed and some other goblin takes up the mantle.

(B) the plan is rendered unworkable throug either (1) Xykon’s death or (2) the Dark One being revealed to not want the betterment of goblinkind after all. This forces Redclaok to accept how massively he screwed up and kicks him out of his fallacy.

(C) Something very clever I haven’t thought of.

(D) Obi-Wan Kenobi.

[Dausuul]

Yeah, Implosion would be *much* worse if aimed at Elan, Haley, or V. No 'x's in the eyes, so not dead yet. I bet he'll make the save. But where things go next? That's the interesting question...
As an aside, I'm not convinced Death Ward protects against implosion, since it doesn't have the Death tag like Power Word: Kill.

Ah, good point. Well, back to "Made my saving throw (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)."

(In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that's Durkon's very first line in the next strip.)

[Ghosty]

Doesn't Durkon also get the Dwarven +2 vs spells? Rereading Class and Level geekery, it looks like he's got about a little better than 50-50 to save. (+2 to spells, +1 from 12 Constitution, +8 from 13th level Cleric---thanks, Hilgya!) Assuming no Fort-boosting magic items.

Did I do that right? Time for Refuge, or Wind Walk, or WoR or whatever means he and Minrah or V cooked up to pull his chestnuts out of the fire.

[Ron Miel]

So what do people put the odds at that "Durkon" here is some sort of illusion / sending?

I'd say none. Julia is working on a spell (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1192.html)that would allow that. This implies that no such spell currently exists.

And Julia's spell:
1) Makes her image glow green
2) Makes a semi-transparent image.
3) Piggybacks off the blood oath.

[The_Weirdo]

I see several possibilities.

(A) Redcloak is killed and some other goblin takes up the mantle.

(B) the plan is rendered unworkable throug either (1) Xykon’s death or (2) the Dark One being revealed to not want the betterment of goblinkind after all. This forces Redclaok to accept how massively he screwed up and kicks him out of his fallacy.

(C) Something very clever I haven’t thought of.

(D) Obi-Wan Kenobi.

A would necessitate another goblin in the North Pole; that or the MitD to be a goblinoid.

B would undermine a fair bit of the seeming point of this story, not to mention how gods are semi-sorta shaped by belief and all goblins believe TDO to be operating in their interest.

C is far more possible, given how Rich operates.

D I did tell you to come to the dark side because we have salgadinhos (amazing Brazilian finger foods).

[pendell]

Clerics have good Fort save and Dwarves have a CON bonus. Odds should be Durkon's favour. Still surprised Redcloak broke the truce.

Why? Redcloak is evil, rational, and utilitarian. From that perspective:
1) Redcloak decides to reject the deal and sees further communication as pointless.
2) So what next? Tell Durkon "sorry, no deal. Go back to your friends and I wish you ill fortune in the wars to come."

There's a pretty good chance that this will result in immediate combat. And even if it doesn't, this future line continues with Durkon returning to the Order and warning them of what is about to happen. Why should Redcloak do that, when he can eliminate the team's primary cleric and healer right here and now?

As we saw in the plotline involving Tsukiko and the Elvish resistance, Redcloak is an extremely intelligent combatant who always takes the quickest, most efficient way in game to end threats and bring about the best possible solution for his cause and himself. In this case, eliminating the team cleric gives him more of an advantage than allowing him to go back alive, so of course he takes the opportunity to attempt that course of action here and now.

This action doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

Unless Durkon has some kind of contingency against treachery prepared, or Xykon or the MITD intervene to save Durkon's life, perhaps to amuse Xykon, Redcloak will not take him alive.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fitzclowningham]

Redcloak might well have thought Durkon's plan was the best for everyone concerned, and especially the best for the goblinoids. Except that he and the world still have Xykon to deal with. RC is in no position to dictate terms to Xykon, who has put everything on getting the plan as he knows it accomplished. RC knows he can't get around Xykon, so the great dream of peace and prosperity for his people has to be put aside, just as he did on a much smaller scale with his brother in SOD.

[Frozenstep]

I think Durkon can make the save, and then according to a wiki I'm looking at, he can't be targeted by the same casting implosion twice, so it might turn into a cleric duel. Or maybe a pink forcecage appears around Redcloak.

Still, there's very little I would have done differently as Durkon. Giving up Azure city, not sugarcoating and promising perfection...this was a negotiation attempt worth making.

[Etilworg]

Im here to broke your hope:

If durkon made the save throw, the spell effect will not manifest ( as show in 456 ) .

[RMS Oceanic]

Aw, looks like I was right about an impending fortitude save. :smallfrown:

I don't think Durkon will die, but it's still a shame talks have broken down. This feels better than Roy or Xykon interrupting it though, given Redcloak still has baggage.

[KorvinStarmast]

Going to have to start punching that frequent resurrections card. Does he get bonus miles / points if it's against a new quiddity/essence?


The Dark One himself was slain in a parley by treacherous humans. What you do, comes back to you.

Nice reach back. But Durkon's a dwarf. :smallwink:


There's nothing Durkon can offer that can't be undone by human treachery -- and while Durkon himself is honorable, Tarquin and his crew are decidedly NOT.
Are you using Tarquin as an example, or are you using Tarquin because he has some further role in this story? :smallconfused: Confusing ref there.

We'll see how this all plays out, but Durkon's first mistake was not negotiating from a position of strength. For a cleric, he doesn't really seem to have much of a wisdom score. Hmm, I was under the impression that diplomacy and negotiation were Charisma based.

"Made my saving throw" would be a nice callback to RC's fight with the High Priest of the Twelve Gods though :) Yeah, nice reach back if it arises in the next strip.

Sadly, Redcloak failing to listen to reason and attacking Durkon is exactly what I expected. I was hoping it would not come to this, but it is consistent with RC's facial expression in panel 20. I have a recollection of seeing him make that same face around the time of his brother's death.

[ebarde]

Durkon is definetly going to live, pacing wise it doesn't make sense for him to die. Like, Rich would be cutting the strips in a way that the next one immediately just starts with Durkon getting his head blown, which would be a bit clunky tbh. For the strip to be cut the way it is, it probably has some sort of twist in the next one, also I think Durkon dying has sorta reached the point of diminishing returns at this point, like we just had a whole book that sprung out of his death and then a gag where he just dies again, to do it again would just undercut a lot of it.

[Ron Miel]

If durkon made the save throw, the spell effect will not manifest ( as show in 456 ) .

Several art upgrades ago. And they've got a bigger special effects budget now.

[Ghosty]

Im here to broke your hope:

If durkon made the save throw, the spell effect will not manifest ( as show in 456 ) .

Saving Throw Negates just means there's no effect on Durkon if he saves. It doesn't necessarily mean nothing happens to Durkon. Though the Giant certainly played it that way for laughs in the past, I don't think he's bound then to show that Durkon didn't even notice the spell hitting him. Just that it would have no lasting effect if Durkon saved, so no scratches on the armor or the like.

[Fyraltari]

A would necessitate another goblin in the North Pole; that or the MitD to be a goblinoid.
Maybe, maybe not. There is plenty of room for the sealing of the Rifts to not happen in the North Pole, there might be other goblins going to the pole right now we don’t know about (Redcloak’s niece, Jirix) and (admittedly unlikely) Oona’s shaman may have enough oomph to pull it off.


B would undermine a fair bit of the seeming point of this story, not to mention how gods are semi-sorta shaped by belief and all goblins believe TDO to be operating in their interest.
B1 certainly wouldn’t. I’m not sure B2 would either, for one it’s not impossible for people to both be oppressed and have that opression be used by selfish individuals for their own gains under the pretenses of « fighting the good fight » and for two I am not sure the average goblin believes tDO puts the interest of goblinkind above, say, revenge.


C is far more possible, given how Rich operates.
I mean that’s just the thing, right?


D I did tell you to come to the dark side because we have salgadinhos (amazing Brazilian finger foods).
I think you were talking to someone else.

Im here to broke your hope:

If durkon made the save throw, the spell effect will not manifest ( as show in 456 ) .
But does failing the save always mean death?

[Crœsos]

HOWEVER, it doesn't mean Durkon's dead yet. SRD Implosion (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm) tells us that a saving throw vs. fortitude will negate the spell, and Durkon has high constitution. He resisted Malack's poison attack without trouble, so I think he has a good chance of resisting implosion as well.

We may be in for another ultimate duel between clerics (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html).

[TRH]

Poison is a 4th level spell that Dwarves have a +2 racial bonus against. Implosion is a 9th level spell from a cleric whose Wisdom may well be higher than Malack's. Making the save is going to be significantly harder. He probably will, though, if only because there's nobody left to Raise him if he fails. And I wouldn't read too much into the 456 fight, since that was essentially a comedy involving a nameless NPC cleric. This is a serious moment, and it would be more dramatic for Durkon to start caving in on himself, only to reverse the effect by drawing on his inner strength, you know?

[Fyraltari]

So, has Implosion replaced Disintegrate as Redcloak’s signature move?

[Cazero]

Does he get bonus miles / points if it's against a new quiddity/essence?
If he can catch mummy's rot from a cleric of Rat, he'll have four quiddities worth of clerical death !

[KorvinStarmast]

Several art upgrades ago. And they've got a bigger special effects budget now. that got a RL laugh out of me :smallsmile:

Implosion is a 9th level spell from a cleric whose Wisdom may well be higher than Malack's. While I am sure he has a high Wisdom, I was always under the impression that Redcloak's highest stat was Int, though I guess he'd put points in Wis as he leveled up. Not sure why I have that impression.

[Ghosty]

Poison is a 4th level spell that Dwarves have a +2 racial bonus against. Implosion is a 9th level spell from a cleric whose Wisdom may well be higher than Malack's. Making the save is going to be significantly harder.

I'm probably wrong but, don't Dwarves get a +2 save vs Poison, as well as a +2 save vs. Spells and spell like effects? So Durkon would get +4 if he were to be hit with a Poison spell, vs say getting hit with on of those Invisible Stranger darts.

Second, isn't this just a straight Fortitude save, without any consideration towards caster's level or Wisdom?

[Dausuul]

But does failing the save always mean death?

Yes. The spell is very specific: A creature that fails the save "collapses in on itself, killing it."

[archaeo]

I’m looking forward to how Burlew writes his way out of this situation, where he’s created an incredibly sympathetic backstory for an “Always Evil” species and made equality the central thing they’re fighting for but also set it up so that the only way they’ll get it is through an Actually Evil act. I’ve been expecting Redcloak to have a Redemption Equals Death kind of ending, but man, that possibility is looking awfully remote. Maybe the real twist is that Redcloak was the Big Bad all along?

It’s very hard to avoid discussing verboten “real-world issues” when the story maps to them so neatly—but I have enough faith in the storytelling here to believe that, as mentioned upthread, Goblinkind Isn’t Redcloak. Hard to see how this doesn’t end with some very clear political moral though, esp. given the content in O-Chul’s backstory.

I honestly think if I hadn’t read that (well worth the money, everybody!), I might be a little more wary of this plot development, but I have a high enough opinion of Burlew’s abilities as an empathic and thoughtful storyteller that I’m very excited to see how this all gets tied together in the end.

[dancrilis]

He probably will, though, if only because there's nobody left to Raise him if he fails.

In fairness while evil clerics keep killing him they do always raise him after.

[TRH]

I'm probably wrong but, don't Dwarves get a +2 save vs Poison, as well as a +2 save vs. Spells and spell like effects? So Durkon would get +4 if he were to be hit with a Poison spell, vs say getting hit with on of those Invisible Stranger darts.

Second, isn't this just a straight Fortitude save, without any consideration towards caster's level or Wisdom?

+4 against the Poison spell vs +2 against Implosion, is my point. And the DC of the save does scale with the caster's wisdom (or other casting stat), as well as the spell level. Not the caster level, thankfully.

[warmachine]

It was a good attempt by Durkon but it was never going to happen. Even if he could get Hinjo to agree to giving up Azure City, the rest of the Azure City nobility would threaten a coup just for suggesting the idea. They're cutthroat at the best of times. Giving up their dreams of retaking the home would unite them against Hinjo.

[MaverickMopete]

Redcloak might well have thought Durkon's plan was the best for everyone concerned, and especially the best for the goblinoids. Except that he and the world still have Xykon to deal with. RC is in no position to dictate terms to Xykon, who has put everything on getting the plan as he knows it accomplished. RC knows he can't get around Xykon, so the great dream of peace and prosperity for his people has to be put aside, just as he did on a much smaller scale with his brother in SOD.

It's worse than that. Someone earlier in this thread was absolutely correct when they stated that Redcloak is indeed an incarnation of the sunk cost fallacy.

Redcloak: Throw away lives? How dare you?! Every goblin that has died since I've been high priest has been to further the Plan! Their deaths were a necessary sacrifice! They were not my fault!

Right-Eye: Wait... that's it, isn't it? It's all about whose fault it is... If I kill Xykon now, then it was all a waste. You ordered goblins to their deaths believing in the Plan--so if we abandon it now, then you were wrong. You let them die for nothing. You're willing to throw good lives after bad so that you don't have to admit that we were wrong to work with Xykon in the first place, much less help him cheat death.

Redcloak: Look, it's too late to turn back from the Plan! We made our deal with the devil years ago, now we just have to ride it out to the end.


Redcloak is so far down the slippery slope at this point he's almost hit the bottom. Killing a deity's ambassador is just the final step.

[Zhorn]

Love this... my mind is reeling at that end strip...

I think it's a case of Red Cloak has not made contact with his god directly, he can't just 'talk' to the Dark One to present this plan.
If he cannot get the Dark One on board, then Red Cloak agreeing won't achieve anything, and him abandoning the current plan is just ensuring the destruction of goblin kind.
The original plan for him is now a longshot, almost doomed to fail... but it's still a chance.
He wants to take up Durkon's proposal, but feels it won't work out due to lack of buy in / communication from the Dark One.
His current mission is his only hope as far as he sees it.

but hey, that's just a theory...

[Ironsmith]

1210, Panel 1:

V: "Counterspell."

[Doug Lampert]

I think it interesting that Durkon realizes that he made a mistake with Malack, and that he could should not have attacked because Malack was a vampire.
It is great to see him try to move past lawful stupid (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/main/lawfulstupid), just as he is trying to move past being passive.
Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be working out for him again...

Do you have a link to whatever comic Durkon attacked Malack in? Because in the comic on this site, Malack attacked Durkon while Durkon was still not fighting.


I’m looking forward to how Burlew writes his way out of this situation, where he’s created an incredibly sympathetic backstory for an “Always Evil” species and made equality the central thing they’re fighting for but also set it up so that the only way they’ll get it is through an Actually Evil act. I’ve been expecting Redcloak to have a Redemption Equals Death kind of ending, but man, that possibility is looking awfully remote. Maybe the real twist is that Redcloak was the Big Bad all along?

3.x is the only edition to use frequency terms with racial alignments.

Goblins in 3.0 and 3.5 are not "Always Evil", they are a "usually" race.

[neothoron]

My expectation when the negotiations began was that the talks would be interrupted by Roy, and RC would misunderstand these talks as a trap.

Instead, I really appreciate that Durkon made the gesture of trying to negotiate in good faith, was successful in communicating his message and made a reasonable offer for Gobbotopia.

I appreciate that RC had the time to think about the offer, and chose to reject it without any external pressure, resulting in possibly his most significant character moment since Start of Darkness.

So, negotiations ended. Now on to Durkon’s retreat, and it goes on. There is no way that Durkon will die - if that was the plan, Durkon dying on that last panel would have been a much better cliffhanger.

[Fyraltari]

Yes. The spell is very specific: A creature that fails the save "collapses in on itself, killing it."

Thor dang it!

[Emanick]

It was a good attempt by Durkon but it was never going to happen. Even if he could get Hinjo to agree to giving up Azure City, the rest of the Azure City nobility would threaten a coup just for suggesting the idea. They're cutthroat at the best of times. Giving up their dreams of retaking the home would unite them against Hinjo.

That might be true in a vacuum, but I imagine most of the nobles are political realists who understand that they have no real hope of retaking Azure City at this point. Getting thousands of Azurites back, on the other hand, would immediately strengthen their nation and give them more workers, shoring up the nobles’ position and significantly enlarging their shrunken population.

A formal peace agreement doesn’t physically prevent them from retaking the homeland later, and the repopulation of the Azurite nation with thousands of refugees would be a politically popular move that should, in principle, make both the common people and the nobility pleased (the underclass will grow, strengthening the political position of the upper class, and no doubt most of the common people have loved ones who are currently in captivity). Agreeing to the terms Durkon suggests - in a hypothetical world where that agreement actually gets made, of course - actually strikes me as a fairly shrewd political move, even for a leader with no long-term interest in peace with Gobbotopia.

[locksmith of lo]

i am pretty sure durkon learned from his last experience with regotiating with a cleric, since he mentions it. he is probably prepared for exactly such an eventuality. :smallwink:

[Etilworg]

Rich would be cutting the strips in a way that the next one immediately just starts with Durkon getting his head blown, which would be a bit clunky tbh.

He can save the gore, this can be the first panel:


I think Redcloak just had his final Kick The Dog moment.

And it appears that Durkon will be telling Thor very quickly, "Nae, tha didn'a work."

[TRH]

That might be true in a vacuum, but I imagine most of the nobles are political realists who understand that they have no real hope of retaking Azure City at this point. Getting thousands of Azurites back, on the other hand, would immediately strengthen their nation and give them more workers, shoring up the nobles’ position and significantly enlarging their shrunken population.

A formal peace agreement doesn’t physically prevent them from retaking the homeland later, and the repopulation of the Azurite nation with thousands of refugees would be a politically popular move that should, in principle, make both the common people and the nobility pleased (the underclass will grow, strengthening the political position of the upper class, and no doubt most of the common people have loved ones who are currently in captivity). Agreeing to the terms Durkon suggests - in a hypothetical world where that agreement actually gets made, of course - actually strikes me as a fairly shrewd political move, even for a leader with no long-term interest in peace with Gobbotopia.

On the other hand, Kubota was apparently supposed to be one of the smartest Azurite nobles, and he seemed to assume he could retake the city as an afterthought once he'd overthrown Hinjo, so I'm not sure they actually appreciate just how difficult that would really be.

[enh]

My theory before reading the spell description was that Redcloak has cast Implosion on something sneaking up behind Durkon, and we're just seeing a sort of "splash" effect.

The d20 SRD description makes it clear that the spell targets a creature, however, not an area. I suppose that doesn't preclude a visual splash effect, but in #826 we see him use it without any.

Hmm.

[Segev]

Durkon is definetly going to live, pacing wise it doesn't make sense for him to die. Like, Rich would be cutting the strips in a way that the next one immediately just starts with Durkon getting his head blown, which would be a bit clunky tbh. For the strip to be cut the way it is, it probably has some sort of twist in the next one, also I think Durkon dying has sorta reached the point of diminishing returns at this point, like we just had a whole book that sprung out of his death and then a gag where he just dies again, to do it again would just undercut a lot of it.

I agree: the way this cliffhanger is cut away from, it's setting up for the implosion to fail. If Durkon'd popped in the last panel, I'd have assumed there was a plan to follow him to an afterlife-related destination - perhaps for negotiation with the Dark One himself - but it seems odd to cut away in the midst of the effect if it's going to end just like it would with any other casting.

[johnbragg]

I don't know 3.5e well enough for details, but I think there's a hint in panel 1 of strip 1206 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1206.html): {Italics Mine}

I think that's an oblique reference to something magical ... I am hoping some 3.5 expert folks can parse that.

I....think it's a reference to John Mulaney's standup routine. As an elementary school student, Mulaney's class would be visited every year by a police detective who gave what 2020 would consider horribly age-inappropriate facts and statistics about kidnapping survival rates. Namely that there was a good chance, if you were kidnapped, of recovering you alive from the "primary location," but you were pretty much dead meat if the kidnapper was able to get you to his more secure "secondary location."

So, to this day, John Mulaney (says he) will not go to two places in one night.

Put in less fourth-wall-breaking terms, Durkon would be a fool to follow Redcloak to a location of Redcloak's choosing. (Prepared with traps, magically boosted defenses, allies, etc.)

[pendell]

Even if Durkon gets killed here, that doesn't mean he's out of the story for good. Roy had a whole adventure in the outer planes while waiting to be resurrected. And if this war comes to the point of gods fighting gods, well, I expect Durkon will be right there alongside Thor swinging his hammer.

If Durkon DOES get killed here, I suspect it will be to only set up his later return More Powerful Than We Can Possibly Imagine.

But, yeah. The entire reason Minrah is in the strip is to backfill for Durkon when he's unavailable. Which means Durkon has to be unable to participate in the adventure for an extended period, either because he's dead or captive.

Would be delighted to be proven wrong.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Emanick]

On the other hand, Kubota was apparently supposed to be one of the smartest Azurite nobles, and he seemed to assume he could retake the city as an afterthought once he'd overthrown Hinjo, so I'm not sure they actually appreciate just how difficult that would really be.

That was on the day of the invasion itself. Once the Azurites have been defeated, and the strategic situation crystallizes, nobody seems to suggest that they’re in any real shape to retake the city, not even Kubota, IIRC. Certainly there is no suggestion that Hinjo is being pressured to launch a military operation to seize the city in the short term, even though, in the long-term, it’s obviously something he wants to accomplish, with help from the Resistance and the elves.

[masonwheeler]

I must stay, things like this make it very difficult to sympathize with Redcloak. Ever notice how, every time Redcloak whines about the plight of the goblins, their poor treatment at the hands of the Gods, and the way they're oh-so-deserving of equality, it's followed immediately by some horrifyingly Evil act on his part?

Rich is too good of a writer for this to be unintentional, so I can't help but wonder if he's setting it up deliberately to subvert the "everyone's deserving of equality" trope. Because virtually every time the subject's brought up, the very clear subtext is "regardless of the circumstances the goblins were created in, when they are given a choice, the decisions they make of their own free will demonstrate that they deserve it."

After what just happened I'm rooting for the success of the upcoming crusade!

[fuschiawarrior]

Durkon won't die from Redcloak's spell because it's clear he and Minrah have a contingency plan. Durkon himself remembers in this strip that he was killed the last time he dealt with another cleric, he would pe prepared.

The goblinoids aren't Redcloak, they aren't even the Dark One. The Plan will fail but the goblinoids will have a betterment in their standing in the end of the comic. I am pretty sure that the azurites won't regain total control of Gobbotopia and if they come back it will be through a treaty and a somewhat peaceful coexistence with the goblinoids.

[archaeo]

3.x is the only edition to use frequency terms with racial alignments.

Goblins in 3.0 and 3.5 are not "Always Evil", they are a "usually" race.

I stand corrected, though it doesn’t much change my point. The fate of Goblinkind has been presented as a major problem in the narrative and any happy ending will require a solution. Since I have enough faith in Burlew to believe he’s not planning on shipping them all off to the planet in the rifts and calling it a job well done, I’m very interested to see how he wraps it up.

[Etilworg]

I must stay, things like this make it very difficult to sympathize with Redcloak. Ever notice how, every time Redcloak whines about the plight of the goblins, their poor treatment at the hands of the Gods, and the way they're oh-so-deserving of equality, it's followed immediately by some horrifyingly Evil act on his part?

Rich is too good of a writer for this to be unintentional, so I can't help but wonder if he's setting it up deliberately to subvert the "everyone's deserving of equality" trope. Because virtually every time the subject's brought up, the very clear subtext is "regardless of the circumstances the goblins were created in, when they are given a choice, the decisions they make of their own free will demonstrate that they deserve it."

After what just happened I'm rooting for the success of the upcoming crusade!

This.

He want the victim points to justify his actions.

Evil is not an aligment, is the things we do.

[Alcore]

I think Redcloak just had his final Kick The Dog moment.

And it appears that Durkon will be telling Thor very quickly, "Nae, tha didn'a work."

He will at least be able to return with information to Thor. I think this is the first time (or nearly so) that any talks have happened. Getting the other side of the story is key for diplomacy.

[Ghosty]

+4 against the Poison spell vs +2 against Implosion, is my point. And the DC of the save does scale with the caster's wisdom (or other casting stat), as well as the spell level. Not the caster level, thankfully.

Thanks. Shows how much 3.5 I play...

So, something like 1/3 that Durkon survives?

[archaeo]

I must stay, things like this make it very difficult to sympathize with Redcloak. Ever notice how, every time Redcloak whines about the plight of the goblins, their poor treatment at the hands of the Gods, and the way they're oh-so-deserving of equality, it's followed immediately by some horrifyingly Evil act on his part?

Rich is too good of a writer for this to be unintentional, so I can't help but wonder if he's setting it up deliberately to subvert the "everyone's deserving of equality" trope. Because virtually every time the subject's brought up, the very clear subtext is "regardless of the circumstances the goblins were created in, when they are given a choice, the decisions they make of their own free will demonstrate that they deserve it."

After what just happened I'm rooting for the success of the upcoming crusade!

There’s no possible way this is Burlew’s goal, nor is that subtext clear at all. If anything, “everyone’s deserving of equality” remains a central theme to the work, not something that Burlew’s trying to subvert. Redcloak is very obviously a character intended to complicate that theme, but there’s simply no way that Burlew is going to write an ending in which it turns out that, oops, in the end, everyone was right about those dastardly goblins.

[KorvinStarmast]

Goblinkind Isn’t Redcloak. If we go back to strip 704 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html), The Dark One is very clear on what he needs out of Jirix for the betterment of goblinkind:
... battles of trade and logistics, diplomacy and intrigue. I will venture a guess that the future of goblinkind is in Jirix's hands, not Redcloak's. Redcloak is a prophet, not a king. (Also in strip 704 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) is a ref from the TDO to Jirix regarding Redcloak as "The True Prophet" ...) and I had a bit of an aha moment as I reviewed that crayon drawing.

TDO wears a red cloak. That never registered with me before.

[Fyraltari]

I must stay, things like this make it very difficult to sympathize with Redcloak. Ever notice how, every time Redcloak whines about the plight of the goblins, their poor treatment at the hands of the Gods, and the way they're oh-so-deserving of equality, it's followed immediately by some horrifyingly Evil act on his part?

Rich is too good of a writer for this to be unintentional, so I can't help but wonder if he's setting it up deliberately to subvert the "everyone's deserving of equality" trope. Because virtually every time the subject's brought up, the very clear subtext is "regardless of the circumstances the goblins were created in, when they are given a choice, the decisions they make of their own free will demonstrate that they deserve it."

After what just happened I'm rooting for the success of the upcoming crusade!
Taking Rich’s stance on the « usually evil races » issue, his view on fiction and its relationship to real life issues, the current political climate and the entirety of How the Paladin got his Scar into account, I feel confident that « Sike! It was actually the goblins’ fault that they are mistreated all along! There wouldn’t have been any prejudice against them if they’d been nice and they got worked up over nothing! Therefore it’s totally okay to massacre them, go spare! » is about 180° away from the point The Giant is trying to make.

[masonwheeler]

This.

He want the victim points to justify his actions.

Evil is not an aligment, is the things we do.

I would simply say that, properly understood, alignment is the things you do. It's a formalization of the feedback loop between choices and character: you become Evil by having done enough evil things in your past that it becomes an integral part of who you are, and then you do evil things because being Evil is an integral part of who you are.

[DougTheHead]

I'm placing my bet on "Durkon was in gaseous Wind Walk form the whole time," both because it gives him a way to escape, and because it would give Redcloak the opportunity for a wisecrack along the lines of, "I knew your proposals were nothing but hot air, but I didn't expect the same to be true of you."

[Etilworg]

There’s no possible way this is Burlew’s goal, nor is that subtext clear at all. If anything, “everyone’s deserving of equality” remains a central theme to the work, not something that Burlew’s trying to subvert. Redcloak is very obviously a character intended to complicate that theme, but there’s simply no way that Burlew is going to write an ending in which it turns out that, oops, in the end, everyone was right about those dastardly goblins.

No, RedCloak is evil, and you can not judge a race from the actions of one individual.

The goblins as race only want the same as other races to live and prosper, they have families , bussiness, dreams , things to do, places to be.

[understatement]

...okay, this thread's smilie is very misleading. Which I guess was the point.

The moment I saw Durkon smiling, knew it was over. It's the exact same format of panels as 1150, when Hilgya killed him. Everytime Durkon smiles when he talks to another Evil cleric, he's about to die.

As for Redcloak...do I still like the character? Yes. Do I really, really want to throttle him for going this way? Yes. Intellectually, there was no way he'd let Durkon leave alive, but the last row of panels has exactly the same amount of frustration and disappointment (in a good way!) that SOD's ending had.

Time for Minrah to use mini-Mjolnr to save the day.

[Dausuul]

I must stay, things like this make it very difficult to sympathize with Redcloak. Ever notice how, every time Redcloak whines about the plight of the goblins, their poor treatment at the hands of the Gods, and the way they're oh-so-deserving of equality, it's followed immediately by some horrifyingly Evil act on his part?

Rich is too good of a writer for this to be unintentional, so I can't help but wonder if he's setting it up deliberately to subvert the "everyone's deserving of equality" trope. Because virtually every time the subject's brought up, the very clear subtext is "regardless of the circumstances the goblins were created in, when they are given a choice, the decisions they make of their own free will demonstrate that they deserve it."
Redcloak's own brother is the counter to this argument. Right-Eye was given a choice, and he chose to turn his back on The Plan and try to make a better life for his own people.

It's Redcloak, personally, who is making an evil choice here. Your observation about his self-justifying behavior is entirely correct, but it's an observation about the character of Redcloak, not about all goblinkind.

[Psyren]

Well... Reddy didn't check him for buffs, and we don't know what gear Durkon is wearing. Surviving this is possible, but it does mean he probably needs to get out of range.

But putting aside Redcloak's general stupidity here, burning a 9th-level slot just to make a point when he's about to dive into more epic-level dungeons puts his idiocy on a whole other level.



Evil is not an aligment, is the things we do.

Alignment is "the things we do" :smallconfused:

[LordCdrMilitant]

Well, that's a bait and switch title!

That said:
If I was Redcloak, I don't think I would be looking to accept Durkon's terms either. At the very least, I don't really think Durkon's arguments over the course of the parley were particularly convincing, or effective.
Redcloak and The Dark One was full recognition as a deity and social equality for Goblins.
Durkon effectively offered neither of those things, and effectively only offered things that by his own admission he doesn't have the authority to offer and said "if you stand down and accept my promise of something I can't actually give that isn't either of your original ask, we might propose an internal question to consider opening negotiations on your actual terms."

Also, Gobbotopia was recognized by a good number of foreign states, so Durkon is further offering something that's basically already happened. Azure City doesn't have to reject their claims on the ground for the nation of Gobbotopia to be recognized or trade with neighbor powers.

And his general argument also rubbed me the wrong way, because it's essentially the same as a number of arguments used against advancing the cause of disadvantaged, minority, and non-cishet groups. "You already have 'equality', what more do you want?" when the 'equality' isn't really equal and is either notional or conditional.


Anyway, I'm unsuprised by Redcloak's response.

[masonwheeler]

Taking Rich’s stance on the « usually evil races » issue, his view on fiction and its relationship to real life issues, the current political climate and the entirety of How the Paladin got his Scar into account, I feel confident that « Sike! It was actually the goblins’ fault that they are mistreated all along! There wouldn’t have been any prejudice against them if they’d been nice and they got worked up over nothing! Therefore it’s totally okay to massacre them, go spare! » is about 180° away from the point The Giant is trying to make.

Perhaps, but every time the subject comes up, that's the point that actually gets made. Every time Redcloak has had an opportunity to take the high road and do better, he chooses not to.

What other conclusion are we supposed to draw from this?

[The MunchKING]

I have been a Redcloak fan for quite some time, but this is just foolish. Self-destructive and foolish.

No. It's DURKON-Destructive. And probably Foolish.


Well, Durkon was successful in getting Redcloak to provide a 9th-level spell slot.

It needs to be in a "rebuild the Gates" ritual, not just a spell cast targeting him.


So, how does Implosion work, exactly? Is it « if target fails save then Target dies » or would a sufficiently high level target manage to rank the effects?

It's just Save-Or-Die (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm). Fortunately it doesn't work on Gaseous creatures. UNfortunately if Durkon was Solid, he needed a 5 round advanced warning to go gaseous again (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm).


I think that's an oblique reference to something magical ... I am hoping some 3.5 expert folks can parse that.

I thought it was just "don't go with a criminal to another location, because they'll just kill/worse stuff you there out of sight of everyone else" reference. I don't think Clerics get much in the way of Illusion spells.



Implosion specifically doesn't affect gaseous forms and incorporeal creatures.
Wind Walk turns one into gas and has a duration of hour/level.
Durkon and RC never touched.

By RAW He touched the Stone (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneShape.htm). It could be a thing for narrative effect, but given that and the bit about Rich always (AFAIR) draws Wind Walkers as translucent cloud-like guys, I'm guessing he's solid.


(Mass) Death Ward works against Implosion, right?

Nope, it's not a Negative Energy Effect, it's just godly-power setting up a destructive resonance that crushes you.


Several art upgrades ago. And they've got a bigger special effects budget now.

Also the Vampire Gaze where Roy Had Swirly eyes for a few panels before yelling "I can Multitask" was according to the Giant supposed to be showing that he made his save. So there is prescedent for the spell having a show of it's effects esp. if they're cool enough.


But does failing the save always mean death?

Yup, and no limits on HP or Level or anything. Just Save or Die.


that got a RL laugh out of me :smallsmile:
While I am sure he has a high Wisdom, I was always under the impression that Redcloak's highest stat was Int, though I guess he'd put points in Wis as he leveled up. Not sure why I have that impression.

I don't know about "highest", but he needs at least WIS 19 to cast Implosion.

[Peelee]

I'm actually surprised at more than a few comments here.

First, there was a beat panel after Redcloak cast Implosion, and we see the effect. It's too late for a saving throw or counterspell or what have you. I think Durkon is going to die.

But, more importantly than that, I think this is part of Redcloak's gambit. Given his facial expression on Durkon's last line, I think he realized something that we don't know or can't see yet. But I think he is killing Durkon strategically, and not as a refusal of breakdown in negotiations. I half expect the next comic to show Xykon coming across them, which forced Redcloak's hand to maintain the illusion for big X.

I also think Reddie will be bringing Durkon back, and there'll be a joke about him only being revived by Evil clerics.

And, after all that, I'm going to try one last, entirely-opposite-direction theory - the Implosion won't go off because TDO himself revokes the spell's power, as foreshadowed in the first panel here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html). This isn't my primary theory in part because I don't think that will happen yet, but I do think it will eventually happen.


It was a good attempt by Durkon but it was never going to happen. Even if he could get Hinjo to agree to giving up Azure City, the rest of the Azure City nobility would threaten a coup just for suggesting the idea. They're cutthroat at the best of times. Giving up their dreams of retaking the home would unite them against Hinjo.
Hinjo: "You and what army? We couldn't defeat the goblins with the full might of the military, do you think your personal guard has any chance? It would take generations to build ourselves back up to any sort of strength where we could retake our homeland, and by that point we would be long dead and our people would see this island as their home, and Azure City as a place they've never known. Will your zeal be genetic?"

On the other hand, Kubota was apparently supposed to be one of the smartest Azurite nobles, and he seemed to assume he could retake the city as an afterthought once he'd overthrown Hinjo, so I'm not sure they actually appreciate just how difficult that would really be.
Kubota was the most ambitious of the nobles, not necessarily the smartest.

I....think it's a reference to John Mulaney's standup routine. As an elementary school student, Mulaney's class would be visited every year by a police detective who gave what 2020 would consider horribly age-inappropriate facts and statistics about kidnapping survival rates. Namely that there was a good chance, if you were kidnapped, of recovering you alive from the "primary location," but you were pretty much dead meat if the kidnapper was able to get you to his more secure "secondary location."

So, to this day, John Mulaney (says he) will not go to two places in one night.

I've never seen John Mulaney standup. I know about the second location thing. It's not uncommon knowledge, IMO, and not necessarily a reference to a popular comedian.

[Anansiil]

aaaahhhhh!
Well that was tragic... I'd look forward to learning Red Cloak's exact rationale... he must have reasons... and they probably are not great ones...

Let's hope that other cleric will be an appropriate ace in the hole... else Thor will be getting a very direct report on the outcome of this meeting...

[El Dorado]

Can you still say this went pear-shaped? I mean when that particular spell was used?

[TRH]

That was on the day of the invasion itself. Once the Azurites have been defeated, and the strategic situation crystallizes, nobody seems to suggest that they’re in any real shape to retake the city, not even Kubota, IIRC. Certainly there is no suggestion that Hinjo is being pressured to launch a military operation to seize the city in the short term, even though, in the long-term, it’s obviously something he wants to accomplish, with help from the Resistance and the elves.

Depends on how you define short-term. Hinjo does mention his intent to do so in #502, "when we've found allies and built our forces back up." Vague, but hardly sounds like a generations-long project or anything. For him to agree not to do that, which Redcloak would certainly insist on committing to paper, and being bound to that by his honor as a paladin would almost certainly infuriate the nobility, especially if they're the least bit more impetuous than Hinjo himself. Real-life coups have been provoked by far less than this.

[archaeo]

Perhaps, but every time the subject comes up, that's the point that actually gets made. Every time Redcloak has had an opportunity to take the high road and do better, he chooses not to.

What other conclusion are we supposed to draw from this?

That Redcloak is hopelessly misguided and maybe participating in the universe’s biggest Sunk Cost Fallacy ever? Redcloak is the epitome of “the road to hell is paved with good intentions.” The entire ends-justify-the-means approach he’s taken is a very good illustration of exactly why it’s bad.

I also tend to think that if you’re reading OOTS and you’ve based your conclusions about an entire species based on the actions of one representative of it, you may have missed the point being made by the text.

[Heksefatter]

Durkon, Durkon, Durkon ...you should at least have mentioned that The Dark One would be in grave danger if the gods destroyed the world. I don't think that The Dark One would have believed it, but Redcloak might.

Also, Redcloak: It is very impolite to cast implosion during negotiations!

[Dausuul]

Perhaps, but every time the subject comes up, that's the point that actually gets made. Every time Redcloak has had an opportunity to take the high road and do better, he chooses not to.

What other conclusion are we supposed to draw from this?
That Redcloak, personally, is an evil hypocrite who would murder his own brother to avoid having to admit that he was wrong.

There are goblins in OotS other than Redcloak.

[Peelee]

I must stay, things like this make it very difficult to sympathize with Redcloak. Ever notice how, every time Redcloak whines about the plight of the goblins, their poor treatment at the hands of the Gods, and the way they're oh-so-deserving of equality, it's followed immediately by some horrifyingly Evil act on his part?

Rich is too good of a writer for this to be unintentional, so I can't help but wonder if he's setting it up deliberately to subvert the "everyone's deserving of equality" trope. Because virtually every time the subject's brought up, the very clear subtext is "regardless of the circumstances the goblins were created in, when they are given a choice, the decisions they make of their own free will demonstrate that they deserve it."

After what just happened I'm rooting for the success of the upcoming crusade!

I just want to go on the record and state that no, I do not believe The Giant will subvert the "everyone's deserving of equality" trope. In no small part because that not being subverted seems to be a central theme in his writing. Arguably the central theme.

[prism6691]

Sunk cost fallacy prevails again. Assuming the art is indicative of him failing the saving throw, Im stumped to what will come next. I don't see a spell on the cleric spell list that minrah could have cast that might help, it seems too late to be countered. Wind walk does make you as if gaseous form, which implosion specifically fails against, but transitioning to and from the gaseous state takes 5 rounds. I suppose he could be under an illusion effect making him appear solid, with a range limit which would explain why he wouldn't go to a second location. However the Order/Durkon has never seen Redcloak use implosion, to gamble that he would use it here and counter it. I'm stumped.

We might see Thor intervene directly. Which would have other repercussions.

[johnbragg]

...maybe the next strip opens with a pink counterspell?

That wasn't a very common thing in 3rd edition, and I don't think the art supports it (Durkon would have to be casting Dispel Magic *now*. It's not super clear in the 3E rules how that works in terms of the action economy. Durkon would have had to have held an action to cast Dispel Magic as a counterspell. So the short answer is, Naah.)

[jedipilot24]

Well that didn't work.

Why didn't Durkon bring up the whole "the Dark One won't survive to the next world" thing?

[The Pilgrim]

Time to roll a Fortitude Saving Throw, Durkon.

[archaeo]

First, there was a beat panel after Redcloak cast Implosion, and we see the effect. It's too late for a saving throw or counterspell or what have you. I think Durkon is going to die.

Given that it’s a fortitude save, maybe we should expect Durkon to have to visibly work to counteract the spell in the next page?

Killing Durkon off here would be a pretty intense decision after spending several hundred strips on a quest to save him followed by him getting a literal Mission From God. Not out of the question! But a big move to make.

[Fyraltari]

But putting aside Redcloak's general stupidity here, burning a 9th-level slot just to make a point when he's about to dive into more epic-level dungeons puts his idiocy on a whole other level.

As others have said, once Redcloak rejects Durkon’s offer they are ennemies and, ever the pragmatic, he moves to take him and his team out of the picture in the most efficient way he can think of.

Perhaps, but every time the subject comes up, that's the point that actually gets made. Every time Redcloak has had an opportunity to take the high road and do better, he chooses not to.

What other conclusion are we supposed to draw from this?
That Redclaok is a damaged individual who does more harm than good to his own cause. Redclaok is, at the end of the day, a sympathetic antagonist, not a hero. This will never end in him getting everything he wants.



First, there was a beat panel after Redcloak cast Implosion, and we see the effect. It's too late for a saving throw or counterspell or what have you. I think Durkon is going to die.

But, more importantly than that, I think this is part of Redcloak's gambit. Given his facial expression on Durkon's last line, I think he realized something that we don't know or can't see yet. But I think he is killing Durkon strategically, and not as a refusal of breakdown in negotiations. I half expect the next comic to show Xykon coming across them, which forced Redcloak's hand to maintain the illusion for big X.
He’s looking at the ground, though. And Durkon would have a clear view of whatever Redclaok was seeing from this angle. And Redclaok does not look surprised in any way. And the table would give the lie to him immedialtely. I think this panel is simpmy Redclaok making his decision.



Hinjo: "You and what army? We couldn't defeat the goblins with the full might of the military, do you think your personal guard has any chance? It would take generations to build ourselves back up to any sort of strength where we could retake our homeland, and by that point we would be long dead and our people would see this island as their home, and Azure City as a place they've never known. Will your zeal be genetic?"
Sadly, while hatred and resentment aren’t genetics, they can easily be passed down to one’s children. If you want an example... *gestures broadly at everything*. Even in the best of cases, there will always be Azurites telling their kids that life was just so much better in Azure City and that [insert problem here] would never have happened if they hadn’t let these good-for-nothin’ greenies steak their ancestral homelands. And children growing up thinking that’s true.

[littlebum2002]

I'm putting my money on this being a "fake gunshot" trope. You know the one, like in Last Crusade where the mook is pointing a gun at Indy and you hear a gunshot and then Indy is looking for his wound only to find out that Marion, not the mook, fired the gun. I think the implosion was targeted at someone behind Durkon and the art is just showing him caught up on the effect since it's so close. Maybe someone was trying to kill Durkon and Redcloak is saving him.

I realize this isn't very likely, but it's something that no one has mentioned before, so I'm mentioning it now so I'll look really cool in the unlikely event that it happens.

[The MunchKING]

And, after all that, I'm going to try one last, entirely-opposite-direction theory - the Implosion won't go off because TDO himself revokes the spell's power, as foreshadowed in the first panel here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html). This isn't my primary theory in part because I don't think that will happen yet, but I do think it will eventually happen.

I think that's talking about a Deity revoking spell-casting power for a Cleric. RAW as far as I know doesn't spell out whether a Cleric gets to keep the spells in their head until they cast them and just never gets to replenish his spells, or loses all spells provided by that God immediately, but either way; I think once he's cast the spell and it's gone off is a little to late for revoking spell-casting to mean anything.

[Ghosty]

I must stay, things like this make it very difficult to sympathize with Redcloak. Ever notice how, every time Redcloak whines about the plight of the goblins, their poor treatment at the hands of the Gods, and the way they're oh-so-deserving of equality, it's followed immediately by some horrifyingly Evil act on his part?

Rich is too good of a writer for this to be unintentional, so I can't help but wonder if he's setting it up deliberately to subvert the "everyone's deserving of equality" trope. Because virtually every time the subject's brought up, the very clear subtext is "regardless of the circumstances the goblins were created in, when they are given a choice, the decisions they make of their own free will demonstrate that they deserve it."...

I don't think it subverts the trope at all. RedCloak isn't all goblins. His antisocial actions in no way should be attributed to all goblins. Those actions are a symbol of his flaws, not those of Goblinkind.

What does RC really want here? The goblins were created as a prey race, but there's no unringing that bell in this version of Stickworld. True, humans view them as XP fodder, but humans (and all other adventurers of any race, that care about XP) also view other humans that way. And kobolds, trolls, dragons, and the odd Tarrasque. I guess they could ask the Gods to tell their worshippers that killing a goblin is the same as killing any other sentient being that isn't currently threatening to kill them.

Is RC asking for that though? Further, how could he be sure the Gods won't go back on that concession, or any other concession they might grant now due to fear of the Snarl?

In the preceding strips, all I see from him is complaining about the hand they were dealt, and that they intend to hang onto Gobbotopia. Plus not believing that the Gods will torch Stickworld rather than let RC go through with the Plan. And that he seemed surprised and delighted that Durkon offered a peace treaty between the Azurites and the goblins. If he's expecting perpetual peace out of that, well good luck. Show me the human, or any other D&D racial group, that's ever been at perpetual peace with its neighbors.

It's too bad that RC can't go to the Astral Plane and see the Graveyard of Worlds for himself.

[TRH]

That wasn't a very common thing in 3rd edition, and I don't think the art supports it (Durkon would have to be casting Dispel Magic *now*. It's not super clear in the 3E rules how that works in terms of the action economy. Durkon would have had to have held an action to cast Dispel Magic as a counterspell. So the short answer is, Naah.)

To be fair, it's a lot more common in OOTS than it is at your average table. That said, it has hit Durkon, that much is clear. I don't think it's too late for the saving throw, but almost certainly too late to counterspell. People meant a counterspell from V or someone else, I'm pretty sure, but no reason to expect them to have caught up to Durkon already either.


Well that didn't work.

Why didn't Durkon bring up the whole "the Dark One won't survive to the next world" thing?


Why would Redcloak buy that, of all things? Honestly, I don't think he realizes that there's been more than two worlds, and Durkon has no evidence to support that claim. Without it, there's no way to support an argument that gods don't necessarily survive the transition from one world to the next.

[Etilworg]

Alignment is "the things we do" :smallconfused:

Yes, first do the things, THEN get the aligment label .

You encounter a goblin in a dungeon, what is he doing? Usually evil things.

The problem is not that they have an aligment label, but that the dungeon master forgets to include goblins that are selling hydra w/gouda burgers, so USUALLY becomes ALWAYS in your eyes.

i will not touch real world events but if you only see one type of news, your world view is very skewed in that direction


No. It's DURKON-Destructive. And probably Foolish.

Also the Vampire Gaze where Roy Had Swirly eyes for a few panels before yelling "I can Multitask" was according to the Giant supposed to be showing that he made his save. So there is prescedent for the spell having a show of it's effects esp. if they're cool enough.



Domination effects can succed then give you a second saving throw "any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus."

[Dausuul]

It just occurred to me that if Durkon dies to this, the Order has no way to bring him back, not even if they went back to Hilgya and somehow convinced her to help again. Resurrection requires a piece of the body, and implosion won't leave any.

The only way to revive him would be true resurrection, and the only cleric in the vicinity who can cast that is Redcloak himself.

(On the plus side, true resurrection doesn't drain any levels, so Durkon won't get socked in the XP department any more than he already has.)

[The MunchKING]

To be fair, it's a lot more common in OOTS than it is at your average table.

I always liked Counterspelling, it's great if you know you're going up against casters, and if not Dispel Magic can do other stuff too.

[Squire Doodad]

Next page, first panel:

:durkon: "...made my saving throw."

[Fyraltari]

However the Order/Durkon has never seen Redcloak use implosion, to gamble that he would use it here and counter it. I'm stumped.
Niu has and she reported back to Hinjo who contacted Haley back at the pyramid. Further discussion may have happened off-screen.

Well that didn't work.

Why didn't Durkon bring up the whole "the Dark One won't survive to the next world" thing?
A) the Dark One may not survive to the next world.
B) Why would Redcloak believe him?

I'm putting my money on this being a "fake gunshot" trope. You know the one, like in Last Crusade where the mook is pointing a gun at Indy and you hear a gunshot and then Indy is looking for his wound only to find out that Marion, not the mook, fired the gun. I think the implosion was targeted at someone behind Durkon and the art is just showing him caught up on the effect since it's so close. Maybe someone was trying to kill Durkon and Redcloak is saving him.

I realize this isn't very likely, but it's something that no one has mentioned before, so I'm mentioning it now so I'll look really cool in the unlikely event that it happens.

Redclaok is looking the other way.

[understatement]

I would consider Belkar staking him as a Durkon death, since at that moment it was Durkon controlling the body completely.

Regardless, Durkon has died too many times and deserves a happy life with his son. Implosion is not the path.

I formally withdraw my statement, and I will put my picture on the "Hall of Theories that went bottom up" later.

Also, I'm pretty surprised that Redcloak's still packing a whole 9th level spell from a night of extensive dungeon crawling. In hindsight, I'm glad the Order didn't show up -- V, Haley, or Elan would have been killed instantaneously.

[Dausuul]

And one other thought: It's just possible that Durkon will, in his last moments, announce his devotion to the Dark One.

If he can do it with enough conviction to make it stick, that would allow him to speak directly to TDO and deliver Thor's message.

(Edit: To be clear, I don't think this is likely. I'm betting that the next panel will feature Durkon announcing that he made his saving throw. But it would make a heck of an interesting twist.)

[Squire Doodad]

I'm putting my money on this being a "fake gunshot" trope. You know the one, like in Last Crusade where the mook is pointing a gun at Indy and you hear a gunshot and then Indy is looking for his wound only to find out that Marion, not the mook, fired the gun. I think the implosion was targeted at someone behind Durkon and the art is just showing him caught up on the effect since it's so close. Maybe someone was trying to kill Durkon and Redcloak is saving him.

I realize this isn't very likely, but it's something that no one has mentioned before, so I'm mentioning it now so I'll look really cool in the unlikely event that it happens.

Who else would he be shooting at? Xykon's not in town, and it'd be poor form to show his acceptance of peace by blowing up Oona. There could be someone off-screen, but I don't see anything to indicate that, let alone something that would be better depicted by Implosion over, say, Hold Person.


...is it possible for RC to interrupt his spell and leave Durkon with heavy damage instead of death?

[Fyraltari]

I formally withdraw my statement, and I will put my picture on the "Hall of Theories that went bottom up" later.

Also, I'm pretty surprised that Redcloak's still packing a whole 9th level spell from a night of extensive dungeon crawling. In hindsight, I'm glad the Order didn't show up -- V, Haley, or Elan would have been killed instantaneously.

The fact that this is the morning and therefore Redcloak has rested probably helps.

[understatement]

The fact that this is the morning and therefore Redcloak has rested probably helps.

He's Evil; he gets his spells at dusk.

[Fyraltari]

He's Evil; he gets his spells at dusk.

Isn’t that just for the undead? :smallconfused:

Also for everybody suggesting that Durkon is just caught in the area of a spell targeted at somebody else: his chair isn’t affected. It’s targeted at him.

[masonwheeler]

Redcloak's own brother is the counter to this argument. Right-Eye was given a choice, and he chose to turn his back on The Plan and try to make a better life for his own people.

...and we all know how that turned out for him.


It's Redcloak, personally, who is making an evil choice here. Your observation about his self-justifying behavior is entirely correct, but it's an observation about the character of Redcloak, not about all goblinkind.

To one degree, yes. On the other hand, the comic can't be about all the goblins individually because there are simply too many of them, so the characters it focuses on are all we have to go by. And the picture we see is a society where, while they may talk a good game, those that try to actually improve things rather than simply being Evil for Evil's sake get pulled down by more powerful goblins.

To put it bluntly, when people who hold a different opinion don't wield enough influence to make a difference... they don't really matter.

[prism6691]

Niu has and she reported back to Hinjo who contacted Haley back at the pyramid. Further discussion may have happened off-screen.


But even if they were to counter Implosion with wind walk, the transition takes 5 rounds. Hes not gaseous, unless under an illusion and with Elan and V not being aware of this gambit to prepare an illusion before hand, Im at a loss for what spell would be creating the illusion that a Cleric could cast.

[Ranzear]

Oh.

Ooooh.

I get it.

How else is Durkon gonna talk to Thor again about the agreement? RC is just being ... expedient.

[Fyraltari]

...and we all know how that turned out for him.



To one degree, yes. On the other hand, the comic can't be about all the goblins individually because there are simply too many of them, so the characters it focuses on are all we have to go by. And the picture we see is a society where, while they may talk a good game, those that try to actually improve things rather than simply being Evil for Evil's sake get pulled down by more powerful goblins.

To put it bluntly, when people who hold a different opinion don't wield enough influence to make a difference... they don't really matter.
What are you saying? That the goblins have to prove they deserve not to be shot on sight before that’s considered a bad thing? Because that seems backwards for me.

Beside we’ve seen successful peaceful co-existence alongside humans (at least at a distance) twice.

[Pax_Chi]

Sadly, Redcloak failing to listen to reason and attacking Durkon is exactly what I expected.

Yep. You've got to give Durkon credit, he gave it a genuine effort, argued in good faith, used no intimidation and relied solely on appeals to reason, trying to make a situation where everyone benefits, even if they aren't all exactly happy.

Sadly, by trying to bring things down to a mortal level and discuss things without the gods involved, Durkon left out his biggest bargaining chip: The Dark One's own existence. As stated, the Dark One might not survive to the next world because he doesn't have enough "divine inertia" so to speak, not enough belief to let him survive the rebuilding of the world. If Durkon had brought that up, Red Cloak likely would have had to at least try to communicate that with his god for further information.

Red Cloak and the Dark One don't realize that they stand to lose more than just this world, they stand to lose the only god the goblins have and any potential of being on an equal footing. So sealing the Snarl is not only the best for everyone involved, NOT sealing the Snarl is basically suicide for the Dark One and oblivion for all of the goblins.

But I think Durkon avoided bringing that up (assuming he didn't just forget) because he wanted to win Red Cloak over from a purely (for lack of a better term) humanitarian argument. He wanted to show that the mortal races could achieve equality themselves through hard work, negotiations, diplomacy and patience. And Red Cloak is in a unique position thanks to his long life to help shape the destiny of his people for the better, live long enough to see it happen.

In essence, Durkon wanted to convince Red Cloak to work with him solely out of what would be best long term for the goblin people without hanging any threat over their heads that the goblins didn't already know about (ie, the gods destroying the world, the gate over Goblintopia, etc.). Because Durkon is a good person.

Unfortunately, as pointed out here . . .


It's worse than that. Someone earlier in this thread was absolutely correct when they stated that Redcloak is indeed an incarnation of the sunk cost fallacy.

Redcloak: Throw away lives? How dare you?! Every goblin that has died since I've been high priest has been to further the Plan! Their deaths were a necessary sacrifice! They were not my fault!

Right-Eye: Wait... that's it, isn't it? It's all about whose fault it is... If I kill Xykon now, then it was all a waste. You ordered goblins to their deaths believing in the Plan--so if we abandon it now, then you were wrong. You let them die for nothing. You're willing to throw good lives after bad so that you don't have to admit that we were wrong to work with Xykon in the first place, much less help him cheat death.

Redcloak: Look, it's too late to turn back from the Plan! We made our deal with the devil years ago, now we just have to ride it out to the end.


Redcloak is so far down the slippery slope at this point he's almost hit the bottom. Killing a deity's ambassador is just the final step.

. . . Red Cloak is not. Red Cloak is, at the end of the day, incapable of taking responsibility for any actions that don't make him look or feel good.

Everything he's done for decades has been for "The Plan". If success is gained through any means other than "The Plan", then he'll always have to ask himself if the cost for success was great because he stuck to a plan that was never going to work.

Honestly, at this point, if Red Cloak was directly told by his own god to knock it off, forget the plan and work with the Order to save the world, Red Cloak might honestly REFUSE to do so, because the Plan has to work. He might defy even his god because the god isn't doing what Red Cloak has convinced himself needs to happen.


I must stay, things like this make it very difficult to sympathize with Redcloak. Ever notice how, every time Redcloak whines about the plight of the goblins, their poor treatment at the hands of the Gods, and the way they're oh-so-deserving of equality, it's followed immediately by some horrifyingly Evil act on his part?

Rich is too good of a writer for this to be unintentional, so I can't help but wonder if he's setting it up deliberately to subvert the "everyone's deserving of equality" trope. Because virtually every time the subject's brought up, the very clear subtext is "regardless of the circumstances the goblins were created in, when they are given a choice, the decisions they make of their own free will demonstrate that they deserve it."

After what just happened I'm rooting for the success of the upcoming crusade!


Redcloak's own brother is the counter to this argument. Right-Eye was given a choice, and he chose to turn his back on The Plan and try to make a better life for his own people.

It's Redcloak, personally, who is making an evil choice here. Your observation about his self-justifying behavior is entirely correct, but it's an observation about the character of Redcloak, not about all goblinkind.

While I do think that a fictional race can serve whatever purpose the creator wishes and that there's nothing inherently wrong or racist with an "always evil species" as D&D defines it, Dausuul is definitely correct in that Rich does not endorse that idea. He'd in no way want to put forth the idea that "it was the goblins own fault all along because they ARE all irredeemably evil", because he vehemently opposes that idea.

What we've seen from the goblins in Rich's setting is that they have just as much capacity to have free will, be rational, work with others and are effectively just humans with green skin, pointy ears and fangs. As a species, in Rich's world there's no reason why the goblins couldn't be a nation just as prosperous and respected as any human, elf or dwarf territory, apart from the racism of other nations.

So as a whole, in the OotS setting, this definitely isn't a case for the goblins being irredeemably evil.

It is, however, a strong case for Red Cloak to be irredeemably evil by this point. Because, as masonwheeler mentioned, every time Red Cloak has the chance to do something that will get the goblins the equality he claims to want, he does something evil, treacherous, underhanded and selfish.

Because it's no longer about making sure the goblins get equality. It's about making sure the goblins get equality in the way HE wants, that HE'S worked for, because it's the only way to absolve HIS guilt.

In a very Star Wars / Darkside of the Force way, Red Cloak has gone from thinking about his people to thinking only about himself.

[isamaru]

Durkon might or might not make the saving throw (I'm leaning towards thinking that he'll do), but either way we're not given enough information to say that conclusively.
It makes sense to show the effects in either case: while a character's fortitude might save them from destructive pressures, but they still pull at them.
Just like one could still draw a (subtler) reaction on receiving damage when making a successful concentration check instead of a no-sell (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoSell).

Anyway, opening with a fort save spell against a dwarf cleric is rather weak. Looking at cleric spell list, it still looks like the best surprise move, IMHO.

[TRH]

...and we all know how that turned out for him.

To one degree, yes. On the other hand, the comic can't be about all the goblins individually because there are simply too many of them, so the characters it focuses on are all we have to go by. And the picture we see is a society where, while they may talk a good game, those that try to actually improve things rather than simply being Evil for Evil's sake get pulled down by more powerful goblins.

To put it bluntly, when people who hold a different opinion don't wield enough influence to make a difference... they don't really matter.

Do you generalize every society/group you encounter by the individuals you happen to know the best? Just within this story, that would obligate us to write off the Empires of Blood, Sweat and Tears. And Greysky City, since we only really met the Thieves' Guild. And...

[negentropic]

I'm putting my money on this being a "fake gunshot" trope. You know the one, like in Last Crusade where the mook is pointing a gun at Indy and you hear a gunshot and then Indy is looking for his wound only to find out that Marion, not the mook, fired the gun. I think the implosion was targeted at someone behind Durkon and the art is just showing him caught up on the effect since it's so close. Maybe someone was trying to kill Durkon and Redcloak is saving him.

I realize this isn't very likely, but it's something that no one has mentioned before, so I'm mentioning it now so I'll look really cool in the unlikely event that it happens.

Riffing off of that: Could Redcloak be casting Implosion on himself? What if this is his way to get an audience with his god? Even if he wants to agree to Durkon's proposal, he probably cannot make a unilateral decision for the Dark One. And it was recently mentioned that he has never actually talked to him, so we can assume that TDO doesn't answer spells like Commune or Divine Guidance to facilitate something like this. So this could just be a somewhat extreme measure to get some immediate face-to-larger-and-glowing-face time to discuss these urgent matters.

[DLcygnet]

Well, hey! You know what Implosion is? A level 9 spell.
Is that enough for Thor to do what's needed to bind the snarl?

If so, now we can get back to the epic battle brewing between the order and Xykon.

Bye Durkon! Another honorable death in the bag.

[TRH]

But even if they were to counter Implosion with wind walk, the transition takes 5 rounds. Hes not gaseous, unless under an illusion and with Elan and V not being aware of this gambit to prepare an illusion before hand, Im at a loss for what spell would be creating the illusion that a Cleric could cast.

Not that Durkon could cast it, but Miracle.

[The MunchKING]

Isn’t that just for the undead? :smallconfused:

Also for everybody suggesting that Durkon is just caught in the area of a spell targeted at somebody else: his chair isn’t affected. It’s targeted at him.

I was just going to say Implosion didn't really have splash-radius like that, but thought it might in OotS if Rich thought it looked cool. Here was kind of vague (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html) because noone hit by it was that close to anyone else. But now that I looked it up their swords don't implode with them. But good call on noticing the table and the chair don't distort, so it's not some gravity-based effect of being near an Implosion. It's internally consistent.

[prism6691]

Not that Durkon could cast it, but Miracle.

Ah well, if we are going for things that no one can cast, Contingent Resurrection would also work :smallsmile:

[Fyraltari]

Well, hey! You know what Implosion is? A level 9 spell.
Is that enough for Thor to do what's needed to bind the snarl?

No. Thor doesn’t need Redcloak to cast any random 9th level spell at any random time, he needs him to take part in a precise ritual to give up a 9th-spell worth of certified Violet Energy to him (Thor) so that he can repurpose it.

[TRH]

Ah well, if we are going for things that no one can cast, Contingent Resurrection would also work :smallsmile:

Well, that would save Durkon, sure, but I meant it can emulate any 7th level or lower spell, including whatever illusion spell you might want.

[masonwheeler]

Well, hey! You know what Implosion is? A level 9 spell.
Is that enough for Thor to do what's needed to bind the snarl?

No, it has to be a specific use of a 9th-level spell slot on a specific 9th-level ritual. That's been stated pretty clearly by Rich on here.

[Peelee]

He’s looking at the ground, though. And Durkon would have a clear view of whatever Redclaok was seeing from this angle. And Redclaok does not look surprised in any way. And the table would give the lie to him immedialtely. I think this panel is simpmy Redclaok making his decision.

Yes, and before Redcloak was looking at the ground he was looking in Durkon's direction and made an odd expression. Hence why I called out "during Durkon's last line."

It just occurred to me that if Durkon dies to this, the Order has no way to bring him back, not even if they went back to Hilgya and somehow convinced her to help again. Resurrection requires a piece of the body, and implosion won't leave any.

Really? Last time it was cast it seemed to leave a lot of the body. Just in a very messy state.

[Metastachydium]

Well, well. This went as well as could be expected. I mean, this is basically the same thing I've been saying time and again for a while: this is an awful proposal. Durkon basically acknowledges that Gobbotopia as it is is not a viable solution to the goblinoids' problem, since its sitting under a Rift, and a huge crusade bait to boot. He also acknowledges that its limited recognition might not protect it from stubborn enemies. All he offers boils down to ”I'll try to talk with two guys who may agree to help or at least leave you alone, on condition that you release the slaves, give up on some of the land you occupy [he only promises that the Azurite will give up their claim to most of the land], and you'll do what we need you to do”. We know Redcloak (with his trauma-induced speciesism and whatnot) does not trust humans, we know his god does not trust the other gods, and as some posters have rightly pointed out, releasing the slaves and giving a foothold in the Southern Lands back to the Azurites would just give their enemies a bridgehead and means to bolster their numbers for later, should they choose to move against Gobbotopia (with the possible help of other crusaders).
Redcloak (and Big Purple) would need some cosmic-level guarantee that they won't be double-crossed even if they are absolutely honest about their goals (which I'll assume to be the case for Big Purple until proven otherwise; RedcloakÂ… he has issues, but I strongly believes he still, at the very least, thinks he's honest), and Durkon offered no such thing (heck, he suggested they ought to mostly leave the gods out of the whole deal). Until such time as Big Purple will be absolutely certain the spot-welding businesss can work as a guarantee of that sort, the Plan is their only option.

(

But, more importantly than that, I think this is part of Redcloak's gambit. Given his facial expression on Durkon's last line, I think he realized something that we don't know or can't see yet. But I think he is killing Durkon strategically, and not as a refusal of breakdown in negotiations. I half expect the next comic to show Xykon coming across them, which forced Redcloak's hand to maintain the illusion for big X.

I also think Reddie will be bringing Durkon back, and there'll be a joke about him only being revived by Evil clerics.


Unlikely as it is, I like that one.)

[B. Dandelion]

I'm actually surprised at more than a few comments here.

First, there was a beat panel after Redcloak cast Implosion, and we see the effect. It's too late for a saving throw or counterspell or what have you. I think Durkon is going to die.

But, more importantly than that, I think this is part of Redcloak's gambit. Given his facial expression on Durkon's last line, I think he realized something that we don't know or can't see yet. But I think he is killing Durkon strategically, and not as a refusal of breakdown in negotiations. I half expect the next comic to show Xykon coming across them, which forced Redcloak's hand to maintain the illusion for big X.

I disagree. I think we needed to see plain and clear how lost Redcloak is to his sunk costs in the main strip in order to understand his character. We're not supposed to need the supplemental material to follow the comic, and Redcloak has never made his true motives as clear as he does here outside of the final scene in Start of Darkness.

It's just pure selfishness. There's no strategy behind it, no greater purpose, no valid excuse at all. He's a villain, and we needed to see that unambiguously.


Some people want to love the villain without having to face the fact that villains are largely terrible people who do horrific things with deficient reasoning. Not on my watch.

I'm not terribly happy about it, but that's how I think it is.

[Plus_C]

Redcloak looks startled in one of the final panels.

I predict that Xykon is stood directly behind Durkon, and Redcloak is killing Durkon with the intention of raising him, because if Xykon does it he'll Soul Bind him.

[dancrilis]

That the goblins have to prove they deserve not to be shot on sight before that’s considered a bad thing?


Zombies don't generally have to prove they deserve to be smote before people feel content to smite them - this is despite the fact that some zombies are intelligent decent people, the accepted default position is that they are mindless monsters.
Maybe this should change but it is difficult when they keep forming hoards and attacking people.

So it is with goblins - yes they might deserve better but then they would likely have to work towards better to get it.

[bunsen_h]

Could Minrah be waiting around to do something to distract Redcloak while Durkon transitions to cloud form? Could they both be invisible, with the "Durkon" we're seeing being an illusion (or something similar) while the real Durkon is present to do any spellcasting necessary? I used such a gambit Back In The Day with an illusionist, but I don't know what options might be available now for a couple of clerics.

[The MunchKING]

Isn’t that just for the undead? :smallconfused:

Nah it depends on what your God wants. SRD doesn't even set a hard time (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm), Dawn and Dusk are just common choices that are fraught with symbolism.


Really? Last time it was cast it seemed to leave a lot of the body. Just in a very messy state.

Did it? In that strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html), nor the one afte (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html)r, we never see the body of anyone that got Imploded after they were done Imploding.

[faustin]

On which levels are Durkon and Redcloak right now, just in case the first went to the meeting without any extra protection?

[dancrilis]

Could Minrah be waiting around to do something to distract Redcloak while Durkon transitions to cloud form? Could they both be invisible, with the "Durkon" we're seeing being an illusion (or something similar) while the real Durkon is present to do any spellcasting necessary? I used such a gambit Back In The Day with an illusionist, but I don't know what options might be available now for a couple of clerics.

The chances that Durkon survives Implosion are less then Redcloak failing to see through an illusion.

[prism6691]

Redcloak looks startled in one of the final panels.

I predict that Xykon is stood directly behind Durkon, and Redcloak is killing Durkon with the intention of raising him, because if Xykon does it he'll Soul Bind him.

That could fit! He can cast True Resurrection. And Durkon would probably accept it. He looks conflicted, his answer wasn't no, but a not yet.

[Dausuul]

To put it bluntly, when people who hold a different opinion don't wield enough influence to make a difference... they don't really matter.
Spoken like Redcloak himself. If you want to justify any kind of appallingly hideous act, step 1 is to come up with an excuse for why the victims of that act "don't matter."

And that's all I have to say on this particular subject.

[The MunchKING]

Redcloak looks startled in one of the final panels.

I predict that Xykon is stood directly behind Durkon, and Redcloak is killing Durkon with the intention of raising him, because if Xykon does it he'll Soul Bind him.

if Xykon CARED he could Soul Bind Durkon's soul just as easily from Redcloak killing Durkon as if he did it.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm placing my bet on "Durkon was in gaseous Wind Walk form the whole time," both because it gives him a way to escape, and because it would give Redcloak the opportunity for a wisecrack along the lines of, "I knew your proposals were nothing but hot air, but I didn't expect the same to be true of you." Funny, but I don't think that the spells work like that.

If he cannot get the Dark One on board, then Red Cloak agreeing won't achieve anything, and him abandoning the current plan is just ensuring the destruction of goblin kind. Is that his PoV? They have their city and their land now, and Jirix has been given direct guidance not to go to war more but to trade and do diplomacy. See strip 704.

I....think it's a reference to John Mulaney's standup routine. OK. our meme as kids was "don't take candy from strangers." I am vaguley recalling something like what you refer to as stuff they taught my kids back in the 00s.

The fate of Goblinkind has been presented as a major problem in the narrative and any happy ending will require a solution. Jirix has this as his life's work, now that he's come back from the dead. (And I do agree that "Goblins head off into the rifts neverland" doesn't seem to fit where Rich has been going.)

No, RedCloak is evil, and you can not judge a race from the actions of one individual. Yep.
Perhaps, but every time the subject comes up, that's the point that actually gets made. Every time Redcloak has had an opportunity to take the high road and do better, he chooses not to. A lot of the context of Redcloak is, sadly, not in the on line strips but in a prequel (Start of Darkness).

That Redcloak, personally, is an evil hypocrite who would murder his own brother to avoid having to admit that he was wrong. Yep. And Jirix is leaing a good chunk of goblin kind into another future ..
There are goblins in OotS other than Redcloak. He's a classic example of a very old cartoon from about WW II (Willie and Joe, by Mauldin) where they are sitting in a fox hole. Willie is saying: "Joe, there's two kinds of people in this world. There's you, and there's everybody else." (I think that was a Mauldin, it might have been a different cartoon/comic I remember from waaaaaaay back when ....)

It's too bad that RC can't go to the Astral Plane and see the Graveyard of Worlds for himself. He is of high enough level to cast the Astral Projection spell, ins't he? He could go there, but then it's a matter of finding that spot ... I wonder if Durkon may suggest that at some point ...

[Fyraltari]

Yes, and before Redcloak was looking at the ground he was looking in Durkon's direction and made an odd expression. Hence why I called out "during Durkon's last line."

That doesn’t really look like noticing something to me, more like perplexity.
Also if that’s the case whatever is behind Durkon is taking their sweet-ass time to do anything which does not sound like Xykon at all. Redcloak would just order a bugbear to keep mum and any allynof Durkon isn’t going to tell on them to Mr Bones.

Not to mention (again) the table and chair being obvious evidence of what was happening.

[TRH]

Zombies don't generally have to prove they deserve to be smote before people feel content to smite them - this is despite the fact that some zombies are intelligent decent people, the accepted default position is that they are mindless monsters.
Maybe this should change but it is difficult when they keep forming hoards and attacking people.

So it is with goblins - yes they might deserve better but then they would likely have to work towards better to get it.

In the context of this comic and 3.5 generally, I have no idea what you're talking about. Zombies are explicitly mindless and have never said a word in this comic besides "brains." They don't have the soul of the person they used to be, and are simply corpses animated to move again by magic.

[The MunchKING]

Zombies don't generally have to prove they deserve to be smote before people feel content to smite them - this is despite the fact that some zombies are intelligent decent people, the accepted default position is that they are mindless monsters.

Zombies CAN'T be intelligent if I'm remembering D&D rules correctly. If they were intelligent they would have raised as one of the other Undead types.

[Metastachydium]

Riffing off of that: Could Redcloak be casting Implosion on himself? What if this is his way to get an audience with his god? Even if he wants to agree to Durkon's proposal, he probably cannot make a unilateral decision for the Dark One. And it was recently mentioned that he has never actually talked to him, so we can assume that TDO doesn't answer spells like Commune or Divine Guidance to facilitate something like this. So this could just be a somewhat extreme measure to get some immediate face-to-larger-and-glowing-face time to discuss these urgent matters.

Why would he do that?
I. Implosion is a ridiculously messy way of killing oneself. If he were to try and do that, he would have probably chosen something less flashy but more comfortable (relatively speaking, of course).
II. As for Commune and the like, we don't know. He may not answer those (it happens (Thor, I'm looking at you)), that, however, is not an established fact. For all we know, Redcloak might not have tried that all that often (he's trying to give Big Purple his space (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1206.html), after all).
III. This:

Redcloak can cast Gate, and we have seen the Exarch open one straight to Hel's domain, so I'd suppose he can go so far as to pay a visit (…) if he so chooses. How the Dark One would take that is anyone's guess, though.

[Doug Lampert]

Why would Redcloak buy that, of all things? Honestly, I don't think he realizes that there's been more than two worlds, and Durkon has no evidence to support that claim. Without it, there's no way to support an argument that gods don't necessarily survive the transition from one world to the next.
It's worse than that. The claim that the Dark One won't survive appears to contradict his main point. Durkon's argument is that the Gods will destroy the world to save themselves.

What's his argument about the Dark One supposed to be?

"The gods will destroy this world so that they can all live and create another one. They'll all live safely tha way. Except foh the Dark One, he'll die if they do that. Because what's safe for the rest of them is deadly to him. By the way, while we're here would you care to learn a card game called Fizbin?"

Durkon is skipping the argument that would inevitably be dismissed as a clumsy lie, because he wants to be taken seriously and have his offers be treated as genuine.

[danielxcutter]

...Welp.

Honestly, this is very different from some of Redcloak’s other kills(whether or not this one was successful or not). When he had Thanh killed he ordered the elemental holding him to crush him; he was past the point where crushing paladins was really satisfying and he wasn’t going to take risks gloating anyways. When he had Tsukiko killed he had her own wights drain her to death, which was almost certainly in part due to very much due to not liking her one bit, to put it lightly.

Just before he casts Implosion here he looks almost reluctant. He wasn’t totally unwilling to listen to Durkon here... it’s just that the good of goblinoids was never his only motivation for doing this. And he’s pragmatic enough to try and end this as soon as possible with as much power he can manage.

[dancrilis]

In the context of this comic and 3.5 generally, I have no idea what you're talking about. Zombies are explicitly mindless and have never said a word in this comic besides "brains." They don't have the soul of the person they used to be, and are simply corpses animated to move again by magic.


Zombies CAN'T be intelligent if I'm remembering D&D rules correctly. If they were intelligent they would have raised as one of the other Undead types.

It seems some people are not familiar with the Awaken Undead spell.

[Fyraltari]

Zombies don't generally have to prove they deserve to be smote before people feel content to smite them - this is despite the fact that some zombies are intelligent decent people, the accepted default position is that they are mindless monsters.
Maybe this should change but it is difficult when they keep forming hoards and attacking people.

So it is with goblins - yes they might deserve better but then they would likely have to work towards better to get it.

I am kind of amazed that you are reading this comic when you apparently disagree with its core message that you don’t get to judge people by race. You only get to fight someone when they are actively harming yourself or somebody else not a moment sooner.

The idea that someone has to prove to be deserving of life is nothing less than sickening.

[Morty]

It seems some people are not familiar with the Awaken Undead spell.

Unsurprising, considering it's not in the SRD. Do tell us where it can be found and why it's so common as to make non-mindless zombies worthy of consideration.

[Metastachydium]

That could fit! He can cast True Resurrection. And Durkon would probably accept it. He looks conflicted, his answer wasn't no, but a not yet.

I vaguely remember that we have it on good authority (which is to say, the Giant's) that True Ressurection is too much of a gamebreaker, and thereby it won't ever be used in the comic.

(EDIt: Just levelled up to Dwarf. Yay.)

[The MunchKING]

I vaguely remember that we have it on good authority (which is to say, the Giant's) that True Ressurection is too much of a gamebreaker, and thereby it won't ever be used in the comic.

I thought it was just "would never give it to the protagonists".

[prism6691]

I vaguely remember that we have it on good authority (which is to say, the Giant's) that True Ressurection is too much of a gamebreaker, and thereby it won't ever be used in the comic.

(EDIt: Just levelled up to Dwarf. Yay.)

Regular Resurrection works too if Implosion leaves remains.

[TRH]

It's worse than that. The claim that the Dark One won't survive appears to contradict his main point. Durkon's argument is that the Gods will destroy the world to save themselves.

What's his argument about the Dark One supposed to be?

"The gods will destroy this world so that they can all live and create another one. They'll all live safely tha way. Except foh the Dark One, he'll die if they do that. Because what's safe for the rest of them is deadly to him. By the way, while we're here would you care to learn a card game called Fizbin?"

Durkon is skipping the argument that would inevitably be dismissed as a clumsy lie, because he wants to be taken seriously and have his offers be treated as genuine.

Honestly, given the lack of evidence we've seen ourselves about that, I'm still not happy with it as a plot point in general. It seems like it's just there to add urgency to what Durkon is doing, but that's not necessary when they never found a way to resolve the problem that destroying this world will still condemn the dwarves to eternal torture and empower Hel to cause more trouble. In fact, bringing it up has made her entire plan more questionable, which undermines the entire previous arc. So yeah, really not a fan of leaning on that point even further, and don't get why others are so fixated on it as a trump card in this debate.


It seems some people are not familiar with the Awaken Undead spell.

Yes, because comparing a species of sentient beings with a category of creatures that require a 7th level spell from a splatbook Rich is almost certainly disregarding just to be able to talk is definitely not straining an analogy to the breaking point. This comic isn't into humanizing undead in general, in contrast to goblinoids and other living races. Otherwise they could have introduced a good guy (or neutral guy) vampire last book.

[Gusion]

New comic is up.

Well I hope he rolls a good fort save. At least as a cleric he has a nice + to it... so it is within reach.

I'm going to vote that the last panel does not indicate success yet... and for story it doesn't succeed.

Then what... well, that's harder to say.

[Emanick]

Depends on how you define short-term. Hinjo does mention his intent to do so in #502, "when we've found allies and built our forces back up." Vague, but hardly sounds like a generations-long project or anything. For him to agree not to do that, which Redcloak would certainly insist on committing to paper, and being bound to that by his honor as a paladin would almost certainly infuriate the nobility, especially if they're the least bit more impetuous than Hinjo himself. Real-life coups have been provoked by far less than this.

Oh, I'm with you on this being potential coup-material if it comes off poorly (assuming anyone actually wants Hinjo's position badly enough, which is far from certain - he doesn't have the most enviable job at the moment). That said, however, the chance to bring back thousands of slaves without having to give up anything material should be enough to sweeten the deal, assuming Hinjo is able to play his cards right. And since the Azurites no longer have much prospect of securing strong military allies, and the quickest way to build their forces back up is to acquire a sudden surge in population, I think the counterargument that Hinjo should be focused on taking back Azure City rather than signing this deal is likely to be a fairly weak one.


I vaguely remember that we have it on good authority (which is to say, the Giant's) that True Ressurection is too much of a gamebreaker, and thereby it won't ever be used in the comic.

(EDIt: Just levelled up to Dwarf. Yay.)

No, we don't have it on good authority that True Resurrection will never be used, just that The Giant doesn't like it and wishes it didn't exist. Haley implies here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html) that it does at least exist in-universe.

Given Rich's attitude towards it, it does seem fairly likely that True Resurrection will never come into play, but I suppose it could always be used in a context where it doesn't wreck the story or ruin dramatic tension. In other words, there's no guarantee that we'll never see the spell used in-comic.

[Tvtyrant]

"“Rabbits have enough enemies as it is. They ought not to make more among themselves. A mating between free, independent warrens—what do you say?”

At that moment, in the sunset on Watership Down, there was offered to General Woundwort the opportunity to show whether he was really the leader of vision and genius which he believed himself to be, or whether he was no more than a tyrant with the courage and cunning of a pirate. For one beat of his pulse the lame rabbit’s idea shone clearly before him. He grasped it and realized what it meant. The next, he had pushed it away from him. The sun dipped into the cloud bank and now he could see clearly the track along the ridge, leading to the beech hanger and the bloodshed for which he had prepared with so much energy and care.

“I haven’t time to sit here talking nonsense,” said Woundwort."

Watership Down.

[Metastachydium]

I thought it was just "would never give it to the protagonists".



No, we don't have it on good authority that True Resurrection will never be used, just that The Giant doesn't like it and wishes it didn't exist. Haley implies here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html) that it does at least exist in-universe.

Given Rich's attitude towards it, it does seem fairly likely that True Resurrection will never come into play, but I suppose it could always be used in a context where it doesn't wreck the story or ruin dramatic tension. In other words, there's no guarantee that we'll never see the spell used in-comic.

Found it.



True Resurrection is a terrible, narrative-wrecking spell that should not exist, as it has no real purpose for players who die in battle (as they can almost always be returned via simple Resurrection) and only ever comes in to play to undo plot points. I prefer to simply treat it as "not available" to everyone, and I don't want to waste any panel time explaining why.

[Emphases mine.]

[dancrilis]

I am kind of amazed that you are reading this comic when you apparently disagree with its core message that you don’t get to judge people by race.

Not sure why you would think I disagree with that.


You only get to fight someone when they are actively harming yourself or somebody else not a moment sooner.
So the fighter who sees a zombie on the road and attacks as it mindlessly* wanders around is in the wrong - I would generally agree with that.


Unsurprising, considering it's not in the SRD. Do tell us where it can be found and why it's so common as to make non-mindless zombies worthy of consideration.

Libris Mortis - a useful assist when talking about the undead.

Why are they worthy of consideration?
Because you perhaps shouldn't kill innocent people on the assumption that they might be dangerous or because they look dangerous - just because of the chance of that 1 time in a billion you are wrong.

[King of Nowhere]

ouch. i had better hopes for redcloak. the deal was good. it was everything he could ask for, and it would have been a fair deal.

but in the immortal words of sam vimes, "just because he's a member of an oppressed minority, it doesn't mean he can't be a vicious little bugger"

[Qzin]

Uhm guys... it's probably just me, but I feel like Durkon is being warped because he is "near" to Redcloak - the real target of the implosion.

I think Redcloak just commited suicide to talk to the Dark One as we've learned they are not on speaking terms (usually).

[One Skunk Todd]

Do you think Xykon overhead this conversation? Does he see the gates as a path to becoming a god himself? What does he even want at this point? Besides not being bored and not dying?

[Fyraltari]

Not sure why you would think I disagree with that.

Reading up thread I think I got you mixed up with masonwheeler. My apologies.

[KorvinStarmast]

Bye Durkon! Another honorable death in the bag. He's got the hat trick if he fails the Fortitude save.
Redcloak looks startled in one of the final panels. I predict that Xykon is stood directly behind Durkon, and Redcloak is killing Durkon with the intention of raising him, because if Xykon does it he'll Soul Bind him. Sure, why not?

And he’s pragmatic enough to try and end this as soon as possible with as much power he can manage. Yeah, me mentions his drive for efficiency to Xykon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html) before they headed into the rift's door (when MiTD marked extras after the battles within) and in 826/827.

[Metastachydium]

Uhm guys... it's probably just me, but I feel like Durkon is being warped because he is "near" to Redcloak - the real target of the implosion.

I think Redcloak just commited suicide to talk to the Dark One as we've learned they are not on speaking terms (usually).

„Why would he do that?
I. Implosion is a ridiculously messy way of killing oneself. If he were to try and do that, he would have probably chosen something less flashy but more comfortable (relatively speaking, of course).
II. As for Commune and the like, we don't know. He may not answer those (it happens (Thor, I'm looking at you)), that, however, is not an established fact. For all we know, Redcloak might not have tried that all that often (he's trying to give Big Purple his space (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1206.html), after all).
III. This:

Redcloak can cast Gate, and we have seen the Exarch open one straight to Hel's domain, so I'd suppose he can go so far as to pay a visit (…) if he so chooses. How the Dark One would take that is anyone's guess, though.”

[Ghosty]

...He is of high enough level to cast the Astral Projection spell, ins't he? He could go there, but then it's a matter of finding that spot ... I wonder if Durkon may suggest that at some point ...

Didn't Thor have to do some incantation in order for the Graveyard to be visible? So even though RC can jaunt to the Astral Plane, he'd never find it without a God's assist? And I doubt the Dark One knows about it.

[baculus224]

If I may be meta for a moment... Rich has talked in the past about Resurrection being a huge pain in terms of making risks feel like risks. Killing the party's cleric (or at least, the only one capable of casting resurrection) isn't a bad way to set the stakes for this final battle. Anyone goes down, they stay down.

Of course, there's also the possibility of V coming in and counterspelling the Implosion. Though based on the beat panel when Durkon starts to implode, I think the spell already succeeded. Looks like Durkon's taking his rightful place as "most killed member of the Order".

[Brutalitops]

I'
And, after all that, I'm going to try one last, entirely-opposite-direction theory - the Implosion won't go off because TDO himself revokes the spell's power, as foreshadowed in the first panel here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html). This isn't my primary theory in part because I don't think that will happen yet, but I do think it will eventually happen.





I would be shocked and amazed if that happened. If the big twist was that the dark one is not consumed by vengeance but redcloak is and the dark one wants a better life for the goblins.

That would be unlikely but I could see that twist. If the dark one is ready to negotiate but redcloak is not.

[TRH]

Oh, I'm with you on this being potential coup-material if it comes off poorly (assuming anyone actually wants Hinjo's position badly enough, which is far from certain - he doesn't have the most enviable job at the moment). That said, however, the chance to bring back thousands of slaves without having to give up anything material should be enough to sweeten the deal, assuming Hinjo is able to play his cards right. And since the Azurites no longer have much prospect of securing strong military allies, and the quickest way to build their forces back up is to acquire a sudden surge in population, I think the counterargument that Hinjo should be focused on taking back Azure City rather than signing this deal is likely to be a fairly weak one.


Well, I agree he can and probably will end up finessing it. Honestly, I mostly just wanted to express my low opinion of the perspective and vision of the Azurite nobility, as illustrated by Kubota and those others who withheld their forces. That guy made Nale seem like a humble and unpretentious master of long-term thinking.

Hm. Actually, that's kind of a plot consideration that never came up. The surviving Azurite military is probably disproportionately comprised of the soldiers loyal to the deserting daimyos. That should make Hinjo's position even more precarious than what we saw, honestly.

[ZiggyGuy]

Sorry but, can someone give me the whole description of "Implosion"?
Don't have my books with me (long story) and I've seena fort save mentioned, but... I don't remember the spell having such, and the ones I find online don't have it either...

I -am- rusty on my 3.5 having played only 5e for a couple years, my group is all newbies :3c

[Metastachydium]

If I may be meta for a moment... Rich has talked in the past about Resurrection being a huge pain in terms of making risks feel like risks. Killing the party's cleric (or at least, the only one capable of casting resurrection) isn't a bad way to set the stakes for this final battle. Anyone goes down, they stay down.

Of course, there's also the possibility of V coming in and counterspelling the Implosion. Though based on the beat panel when Durkon starts to implode, I think the spell already succeeded. Looks like Durkon's taking his rightful place as "most killed member of the Order".

All Counterspells we've seen so far intercepted the spell, well, counterspelled mid-air, with the two spellcasting-aura-things adjoining.

[archaeo]

Yep. And Jirix is leaing a good chunk of goblin kind into another future ..

Is he? In the last panel I remember seeing him in, he crushes one of the evil bugs with a rather sinister expression on his face, and the conclusion I drew wasn’t that he was a beneficent leader of Goblinkind whose rule would lead to peace among the peoples of the South. Maybe I misread it.

I actually really liked someone’s earlier point that this is a necessary plot beat to drive home Redcloak’s actual evil nature, but I also think that some of that material is going to have to get recapped anyway, since the MitD will almost certainly swallow Redcloak whole (or somehow be prevented/prevent himself from doing so) and it’s not very satisfying for the author to fire one of Chekov’s Guns without letting everyone know they loaded it in the prequel.

Either way, it’s a key bit of characterization headed into the endgame—Redcloak isn’t the sympathetic leader of a benighted species, he’s actually a very clever example of a villain with a very sympathetic backstory whose character arc is about how the villain’s acts have become entirely about himself and not his sympathetic goals. If redemption is possible, it’ll require a lot more than shaking hands over a stone table, and it’ll be more climactic than all this.

[dancrilis]

Sorry but, can someone give me the whole description of "Implosion"?
Don't have my books with me (long story) and I've seena fort save mentioned, but... I don't remember the spell having such, and the ones I find online don't have it either...

I -am- rusty on my 3.5 having played only 5e for a couple years, my group is all newbies :3c

You can see it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm).



Implosion
Evocation
Level: Clr 9, Destruction 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One corporeal creature/round
Duration: Concentration (up to 4 rounds)
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You create a destructive resonance in a corporeal creature’s body. For each round you concentrate, you cause one creature to collapse in on itself, killing it. (This effect, being instantaneous, cannot be dispelled.)

You can target a particular creature only once with each casting of the spell.

Implosion has no effect on creatures in gaseous form or on incorporeal creatures.


The Giant likely have little wiggle room by RAW (but some), but he has a lot of wiggle room narratively.


Edit:

Reading up thread I think I got you mixed up with masonwheeler. My apologies.

No worries - those of us who don't use avatars are easy to mixup.

[MrConsideration]

"Oh man, who would've thought that the scorpion would sting me just as I'm swimming across the river?"

I'm hoping that, even though Redcloak rejects Durkon's offer now, he will remember it before the end.

[TRH]

Didn't Thor have to do some incantation in order for the Graveyard to be visible? So even though RC can jaunt to the Astral Plane, he'd never find it without a God's assist? And I doubt the Dark One knows about it.

There's a barrier Thor had to open a hole in, but I don't think it impaired visibility, necessarily. And I don't know if you need to be a god to open it, although that's not unlikely. Otherwise, I'd say the Dark One almost certainly does not know about it, because I'm assuming he and everyone who learned of the rifts from him knows no more than we did before the jaunt with Thor, which includes the implicit assumption that the current world is the first one the gods created to contain the Snarl.

[NLM]

"We'll just go about our daily business, and you can hide from the horrifying truth of what you've become - namely, a murderer who just killed his baby brother in cold blood. And hey, we can both pretend that you don't really have any options about any of the despicable actions I ask you to take from here on out - rather than, acknowledging that, like, Right-Eye, you do in fact have a choice. But unlike Right-Eye there, you're too chicken**** to ever make it.

You'll obey me forever now, because I give you an excuse for your inexcusable behavior."

[dancrilis]

"We'll just go about our daily business, and you can hide from the horrifying truth of what you've become - namely, a murderer who just killed his baby brother in cold blood. And hey, we can both pretend that you don't really have any options about any of the despicable actions I ask you to take from here on out - rather than, acknowledging that, like, Right-Eye, you do in fact have a choice. But unlike Right-Eye there, you're too chicken**** to ever make it.

You'll obey me forever now, because I give you an excuse for your inexcusable behavior."

You might want spoilers on that.

[The MunchKING]

Uhm guys... it's probably just me, but I feel like Durkon is being warped because he is "near" to Redcloak - the real target of the implosion.

And nothing else around is effected?


I think Redcloak just commited suicide to talk to the Dark One as we've learned they are not on speaking terms (usually).

When you've got 9th level spells, there are WAY easier ways to talk to your God. Gate being the most obvious one.


Didn't Thor have to do some incantation in order for the Graveyard to be visible?

There was some kind of shield thing (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1139.html) around it. Thor describes it as a "little Barrier" so the Dark One could probably punch through if he wanted, but without knowing where it is, "infinity" is a big place to search.


Sorry but, can someone give me the whole description of "Implosion"?
Don't have my books with me (long story) and I've seena fort save mentioned, but... I don't remember the spell having such, and the ones I find online don't have it either...

I linked to it a few posts back, but the short version is "Fort Save or Die".

[ReaderAt2046]

I must stay, things like this make it very difficult to sympathize with Redcloak. Ever notice how, every time Redcloak whines about the plight of the goblins, their poor treatment at the hands of the Gods, and the way they're oh-so-deserving of equality, it's followed immediately by some horrifyingly Evil act on his part?

Rich is too good of a writer for this to be unintentional, so I can't help but wonder if he's setting it up deliberately to subvert the "everyone's deserving of equality" trope. Because virtually every time the subject's brought up, the very clear subtext is "regardless of the circumstances the goblins were created in, when they are given a choice, the decisions they make of their own free will demonstrate that they deserve it."

After what just happened I'm rooting for the success of the upcoming crusade!


There’s no possible way this is Burlew’s goal, nor is that subtext clear at all. If anything, “everyone’s deserving of equality” remains a central theme to the work, not something that Burlew’s trying to subvert. Redcloak is very obviously a character intended to complicate that theme, but there’s simply no way that Burlew is going to write an ending in which it turns out that, oops, in the end, everyone was right about those dastardly goblins.

There's a quote from the Discworld that I think applies nicely here: "Be generous, Sir Samuel. Truly treat all men equally. Allow [[goblins]] the right to be scheming bastards." Making the goblins Always Evil monsters that are incapable of goodness and can be killed without remorse is wrong, but making them nothing more than persecuted victims who are incapable of making their own choices is still racist, just more subtly so. Redcloak is Evil because he chooses to be Evil, exactly like Hilgya or Tarquin or Daimyo Kubota, and I think that's exactly what the Giant is trying to illustrate here.

[Mandor]

I'm pretty sure this is why we haven't seen Minrah yet.
I think her job is to be backup. If it all goes badly, bring his remains back to a safe spot and then Raise him. Either via her own spells if she can, or via Scroll or other magic item if not.

On the other hand. We're only seeing the spell START to take effect.
We were not actually shown Durkon collapsing inward to a squashed ball of gore.

I mean, maybe, if Wind Walk is still in effect, he can shift to gas form, and let the implosion super-compress his gaseous state, and expand back out, no worse for the wear.
Kinda hoping for that actually, Durkon's taken several deaths to the face lately.

But I do think Minrah is the recovery team.

[Nokao]

Uhm guys... it's probably just me, but I feel like Durkon is being warped because he is "near" to Redcloak - the real target of the implosion.

I think Redcloak just commited suicide to talk to the Dark One as we've learned they are not on speaking terms (usually).

That would be amazing !

[TRH]

I haven't really commented on the strip, have I?

Well, I can't say I'm surprised. It's too early in the book for Redcloak to turn on everything he's spent his life working towards, to say nothing of how out of character it would be for him to break his sunk cost decision loop so easily. People suggested having Xykon appear to disrupt the negotiations, but that also seems like it'd force too much, too early, and Durkon's chances of escaping him alive would be close to nil, even if the lich heard nothing to make him turn on Redcloak then and there. I think Durkon will survive and escape, but after that, I'm not sure, since the Order isn't interested in challenging the Gate's defenses on the one hand, but on the other can't afford to just sit around and wait for Team Evil to finish their work. I guess they'll be busy pursuing the mystery of the disembodied speech bubbles in the meantime, and I still have no clue where that leads.

[gerryq]

I stand corrected, though it doesn’t much change my point. The fate of Goblinkind has been presented as a major problem in the narrative and any happy ending will require a solution. Since I have enough faith in Burlew to believe he’s not planning on shipping them all off to the planet in the rifts and calling it a job well done, I’m very interested to see how he wraps it up.


I can think of worse solutions. Assuming that planet becomes available for habitation. It may be too much of an *easy* solution, but at the same time I did not think of it.

And that planet IS a Chekov's Gun of some sort.

[Malfarian]

At one point I wondered why Minrah would really hang around, and go on the adventure. I should have realized then. You don't pack an extra cleric unless you'll need them.

[Dausuul]

Uhm guys... it's probably just me, but I feel like Durkon is being warped because he is "near" to Redcloak - the real target of the implosion.

I think Redcloak just commited suicide to talk to the Dark One as we've learned they are not on speaking terms (usually).
If that's what's happening, how is Redcloak planning to get back? Even if I'm wrong about implosion and it does leave resurrectable remains, the only person around who could do it is Durkon, and for Redcloak to put that much trust in his enemy would be wildly out of character.

[TRH]

I can think of worse solutions. Assuming that planet becomes available for habitation. It may be too much of an *easy* solution, but at the same time I did not think of it.

And that planet IS a Chekov's Gun of some sort.

It would solve a lot of problems at once. And honestly, I think that's exactly what's wrong with it, since it removes the need for hard work in trying to mend goblin-humanoid relations after generations of blood and enmity.

[bunsen_h]

Given the parameters of the lingering Wind Walk spell, could Durkon shift back to cloud form quickly enough to avoid being killed by the Implosion? Assuming that no other effects are brought into play?

[rgrekejin]

...maybe the next strip opens with a pink counterspell?That wasn't a very common thing in 3rd edition, and I don't think the art supports it (Durkon would have to be casting Dispel Magic *now*. It's not super clear in the 3E rules how that works in terms of the action economy. Durkon would have had to have held an action to cast Dispel Magic as a counterspell. So the short answer is, Naah.)

That's why I specified a pink counterspell. Durkon's magic is blue-white. Pink implies the arrival of V (and probably the rest of the order).

[TRH]

Uhm guys... it's probably just me, but I feel like Durkon is being warped because he is "near" to Redcloak - the real target of the implosion.

I think Redcloak just commited suicide to talk to the Dark One as we've learned they are not on speaking terms (usually).


If that's what's happening, how is Redcloak planning to get back? Even if I'm wrong about implosion and it does leave resurrectable remains, the only person around who could do it is Durkon, and for Redcloak to put that much trust in his enemy would be wildly out of character.

Yeah, if Redcloak wanted to go ask the Dark One a question personally, Gate would be a less irrevocable and, well, less painful way to make that happen.

[DaFlipp]

So I don't think this is going to actually happen, but it'd be great if it did.

Step 1.) Rich ends on the cliffhanger depicted.

Step 2.) Rich trolls the forum to see how people speculate on ways Durkon could survive.

Step 3.) Rich tries to have as many of those turn out to be accurate as possible, just to embarrass Redcloak as much as possible.

"So wait, you're saying you still had Wind Walker running, you used a magic item to display an illusion of yourself, *and* you had Mass Death Ward up to negate instant-kill effect?!"

"An' I made me fortitude saving throw."

"OF COURSE YOU DID."

[Ranzear]

Following the discussion a little further, I think I can see RC's gameplan forming. It's a little of column A, and a little of column B. If RC is gonna move on this new option, he's gonna move fast.

Splat Durkon, cast Gate to follow him, have a nice chitchat with higher powers - and with less chance of intrusion - about what do to do prevent the end of the world. Hell, raising Durkon himself afterward doesn't even matter.

Is there some mechanic that helps target Gate to wherever Durkon ends up?

The only issue is narrative: It takes the adventurers out of the story, so of course there's gotta be another wrench thrown in.

[Fyraltari]

It would solve a lot of problems at once. And honestly, I think that's exactly what's wrong with it, since it removes the need for hard work in trying to mend goblin-humanoid relations after generations of blood and enmity.

Honestly, I’m half-expecting this planet to turn out to be settled by the victims of the Snarl and their descendants.

[Squire Doodad]

So I don't think this is going to actually happen, but it'd be great if it did.

Step 1.) Rich ends on the cliffhanger depicted.

Step 2.) Rich trolls the forum to see how people speculate on ways Durkon could survive.

Step 3.) Rich tries to have as many of those turn out to be accurate as possible, just to embarrass Redcloak as much as possible.

"So wait, you're saying you still had Wind Walker running, you used a magic item to display an illusion of yourself, *and* you had Mass Death Ward up to negate instant-kill effect?!"

"An' I made me fortitude saving throw."

"OF COURSE YOU DID."

To be fair, that is how the more successful min-maxers tend to end up if they saw something like this coming.

[archaeo]

I can think of worse solutions. Assuming that planet becomes available for habitation. It may be too much of an *easy* solution, but at the same time I did not think of it.

And that planet IS a Chekov's Gun of some sort.

Oh, the planet is a highly loaded gun, but I don’t think it’s going to be fired by making it into a goblin separatist colony. I doubt Burlew’s surfacing all these themes about equality if the story’s going to end with “And then speciesism was over because we sent all the green people to another world.”

It would indeed be too “easy” too. We’ll find out what’s happening with the planet, but I get the impression that it’s going to be something that makes the gods’ plans equally unworkable. There’s no way the story ends with the gods just finding a new way to lock the Snarl up—we’re going to deal with that thing for good, and it’ll happen because of the actions of the protagonists. That’s my hot take.

[FlawedParadigm]

...are we going to have to change his name to Kenny?

[Ranzear]

Googled an answer to my last post, which clarifies a lot for me:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm

As a mode of planar travel, a gate spell functions much like a plane shift spell, except that the gate opens precisely at the point you desire (a creation effect). Deities and other beings who rule a planar realm can prevent a gate from opening in their presence or personal demesnes if they so desire.

RC has to splat Durkon to tell the gods to let him Gate over to have a chat. This might be the same deal with the Dark One, who also just might not let him Gate in whenever.

[negentropic]

I. Implosion is a ridiculously messy way of killing oneself. If he were to try and do that, he would have probably chosen something less flashy but more comfortable (relatively speaking, of course).
II. As for Commune and the like, we don't know. He may not answer those (it happens (Thor, I'm looking at you)), that, however, is not an established fact. For all we know, Redcloak might not have tried that all that often (he's trying to give Big Purple his space, after all).
III. This:

ad I: Whether Implosion is messy depends on whether you subscribe to the interpretation that it just causes the body to be compressed inward (big splat) or absorbed into some sort of singularity (big vorp). I've seen both interpretations in play, and AFAIK the source books are unfortunately never quite explicit enough in their description to make either definitely right. But from what we see in OOTS#826, I would lean towards the big vorp interpretation, since the guy who gets hit with Implosion in panel 6 leaves no remains (except for the sword, which he let go when the spell hit him) in panel 7. Collapsing into complete nothingness inside of three seconds doesn't seem like the most excruciating death, and not leaving a body behind might even be relevant in some way.

ad II: I don't know, a stance of "I'm not going to commune with my god before he sends me a divine vision, I don't want to appear too desperate," seems a bit strange to me. But that's just me, of course I cannot exclude the possibility. Maybe Redcloak even considered it usual that gods never directly speak to their clerics, prior to the exchange with Durkon.

ad III: That could work. If he knows where and on which plane the Dark One resides. And assuming the Dark One doesn't block planar travel into his domain. (Has either of these been established? I honestly cannot remember.) But I admit, I didn't consider this, and if he knows the location, at least trying to open a Gate there before resorting to self-implosion would have been prudent.

Still, I am by no means sure of the self-implosion theory. Especially since Implosion's visual distortion effect has apparently never been shown to affect anyone except the intended target of the spell. I guess I just don't like the idea of a fairly pragmatic, self-interested and somewhat rational character like Redcloak doing something so needlessly antagonistic in that situation. Even stringing Durkon (and by extension the gods) along to betray the agreement at the first opportunity would seem more reasonable to me. So I hope there will be at least some kind of reveal that recontextualizes this action, even if it is not this one.

[King of Nowhere]

But, more importantly than that, I think this is part of Redcloak's gambit. Given his facial expression on Durkon's last line, I think he realized something that we don't know or can't see yet. But I think he is killing Durkon strategically, and not as a refusal of breakdown in negotiations. I half expect the next comic to show Xykon coming across them, which forced Redcloak's hand to maintain the illusion for big X.





the Implosion won't go off because TDO himself revokes the spell's power If the big twist was that the dark one is not consumed by vengeance but redcloak is and the dark one wants a better life for the goblins.

That would be unlikely but I could see that twist. If the dark one is ready to negotiate but redcloak is not.

Do you think Xykon overhead this conversation?

Uhm guys... it's probably just me, but I feel like Durkon is being warped because he is "near" to Redcloak - the real target of the implosion.

I think Redcloak just commited suicide to talk to the Dark One as we've learned they are not on speaking terms (usually).

Redcloak looks startled in one of the final panels.

I predict that Xykon is stood directly behind Durkon, and Redcloak is killing Durkon with the intention of raising him, because if Xykon does it he'll Soul Bind him.
so.... many... options!

i can't wait for the next comics to come out and clarify which is which!

[Fyraltari]

So, anyone willing to bet? If it turns out that Redclaok was not trying to kill Durkon and rejecting his deal, I’ll acknowledge that anyone who took me up on this was right and I’m guillible. Conversely if it turns out that Redclaok did try to kill Durkon and is rejecting his deal, anyone who takes me up on this will have to acknowledge that I was right and that they’re looking for subversions where they don’t belong.

Deal?

[Dausuul]

It would indeed be too “easy” too. We’ll find out what’s happening with the planet, but I get the impression that it’s going to be something that makes the gods’ plans equally unworkable. There’s no way the story ends with the gods just finding a new way to lock the Snarl up—we’re going to deal with that thing for good, and it’ll happen because of the actions of the protagonists. That’s my hot take.
I agree that this solution would be too easy. But I do wonder if perhaps everyone ends up getting relocated to the world inside the rift. The world of OotS is destroyed, but goblins and humans and elves and dwarves and everybody are dumped on that new empty world, and now they have to figure out how to live with each other.

...After thinking about it, that still seems too easy. A lot of this strip was about wrestling with the legacy of the past and its impact on the present (i.e., I own the good land today and Joe doesn't because my ancestor killed Joe's ancestor and took it), which is a big issue with real-world racism too. A reset where everyone starts over from scratch is too simple a shortcut. But perhaps I'm overthinking it.

[ZiggyGuy]

You can see it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm).

Right, I -am- rusty. Forgot the saving throw is up there, not in the description~!

[Jason]

This was the best deal Redcloak could have ever expected, and he turned it down because for him it really is his way or the highway. He may really care about the welfare of his race, but not as much as he cares about being right.
This was Redcloak's final chance at redemption, and he squandered it just as he has all of his other chances. He has proved that he really is a villain because of his choices, not because of his circumstances.

I am betting Durkon survives because he learned from his last death and did not come to the meeting unprepared or without an escape plan. Or alone, for that matter.

[dancrilis]

Honestly, I’m half-expecting this planet to turn out to be settled by the victims of the Snarl and their descendants.

That is one of my half theories also - and not merely the planet but all the planets that the Snarl took are the stars* (panel 15) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html) in the sky in Snarlland.

*not actual stars.

[archaeo]

A big reset where everyone starts over from scratch is too simple a shortcut. But perhaps I'm overthinking it.

No, I think your analysis is spot on, and there’s really no “overthinking” a topic this complicated. Indeed, Burlew’s gone to a lot of trouble to make it a real moral dilemma on all sides, to the point that I’ve been gripped by several pages of two characters talking back and forth over a table.

[danielxcutter]

To be fair, that is how the more successful min-maxers tend to end up if they saw something like this coming.

...I was going to nitpick that, but I’ve just realized that as far as min-maxing goes that would only be pointlessly redundant if the item in question had a range measured in miles.

[Emanick]

If that's what's happening, how is Redcloak planning to get back? Even if I'm wrong about implosion and it does leave resurrectable remains, the only person around who could do it is Durkon, and for Redcloak to put that much trust in his enemy would be wildly out of character.

I quoted you because you're the most recent person to bring up the issue (at least as of when I started writing this post), but I'm really addressing everyone who's expressed an opinion on the matter.

Implosion probably leaves resurrectable remains. Generally speaking, if a save-or-die spell throws up obstacles against resurrection, those obstacles are mentioned in the spell's text. There is no mention of the destruction of all bodily remains in Implosion's description.

I googled the question, and while I couldn't find an official ruling, most people did seem to believe that Implosion leaves behind remains.

[TRH]

This was the best deal Redcloak could have ever expected, and he turned it down because for him it really is his way or the highway. He may really care about the welfare of his race, but not as much as he cares about being right.
This was Redcloak's final chance at redemption, and he squandered it just as he has all of his other chances. He has proved that he really is a villain because of his choices, not because of his circumstances.

I am betting Durkon survives because he learned from his last death and did not come to the meeting unprepared or without an escape plan. Or alone, for that matter.

I was gonna say that yes, we know he came alone, but I just double-checked and Minrah is also missing. So maybe he didn't come alone. That said, I'm not sure what she can do to help Durkon here.

[The MunchKING]

RC has to splat Durkon to tell the gods to let him Gate over to have a chat. This might be the same deal with the Dark One, who also just might not let him Gate in whenever.

If THAT'S the case he probably should have told Durkon that was the plan ahead of time. Now Durkon wouldn't know he was supposed to do that.



ad II: I don't know, a stance of "I'm not going to commune with my god before he sends me a divine vision, I don't want to appear too desperate," seems a bit strange to me. But that's just me, of course I cannot exclude the possibility. Maybe Redcloak even considered it usual that gods never directly speak to their clerics, prior to the exchange with Durkon.

As far as we've seen I don't think any of them except Hel to Durkon* DID talk to their clerics at any point. We just a few prophecies from the prophecy Gods, and the rest is handled by deeds and/or extraplanar emissaries.

[TRH]

I agree that this solution would be too easy. But I do wonder if perhaps everyone ends up getting relocated to the world inside the rift. The world of OotS is destroyed, but goblins and humans and elves and dwarves and everybody are dumped on that new empty world, and now they have to figure out how to live with each other.

...After thinking about it, that still seems too easy. A lot of this strip was about wrestling with the legacy of the past and its impact on the present (i.e., I own the good land today and Joe doesn't because my ancestor killed Joe's ancestor and took it), which is a big issue with real-world racism too. A reset where everyone starts over from scratch is too simple a shortcut. But perhaps I'm overthinking it.

I just don't see what that would really contribute to the resolution. The problems of inter-species relations would still have to be worked through, just now in a different place, with all of the physical worldbuilding from the entire comic thrown into the garbage. Seems pointless.

[The MunchKING]

Implosion probably leaves resurrectable remains. Generally speaking, if a save-or-die spell throws up obstacles against resurrection, those obstacles are mentioned in the spell's text. There is no mention of the destruction of all bodily remains in Implosion's description.

I googled the question, and while I couldn't find an official ruling, most people did seem to believe that Implosion leaves behind remains.

I agree the spell doesn't say, but I kind of imagined that being SPLORCHED into a single point would leave very little remains, and so like Disintegrate would need Resurrection to fix rather than Raise Dead.

[TRH]

As far as we've seen I don't think any of them except Hel to Durkon* DID talk to their clerics at any point. We just a few prophecies from the prophecy Gods, and the rest is handled by deeds and/or extraplanar emissaries.

Someone had to notify everyone of the Godsmoot, so we can infer some communication there, at least.

[Fyraltari]

This was Redcloak's final chance at redemption
You are much more assured of that than I.

[gatemansgc]

and durkon is minus TWO levels from his resurrection plus the raise dead after hilgya flame struck him. not sure he's going to be able to roll high enough to resist such a high level spell D:

[Sloanzilla]

Roy was starting to be dominated when he made his save and resisted the domination. I could see that being a similar case here.

Outside chance of the Dark One himself intervening, however.

[Draconi Redfir]

well... Damn. thought things were going really well there, i was really enjoying the peace talks.

do wonder why Durkon never thought to mention the fact that the dark one wouldn't survive to the next world. you'd think that would be an important thing to bring up.

[Dausuul]

I quoted you because you're the most recent person to bring up the issue (at least as of when I started writing this post), but I'm really addressing everyone who's expressed an opinion on the matter.
I was the first person to bring up the issue, and I think other people may be going off my original statement that it doesn't leave remains, so you are addressing the right person. :)

Implosion probably leaves resurrectable remains. Generally speaking, if a save-or-die spell throws up obstacles against resurrection, those obstacles are mentioned in the spell's text. There is no mention of the destruction of all bodily remains in Implosion's description.

I googled the question, and while I couldn't find an official ruling, most people did seem to believe that Implosion leaves behind remains.
I was going off the previous uses of implosion we have seen in the comic, where character collapse into a gory mess that then (appears to) wink out into nothing. However, you make an excellent point that nothing in the spell description rules out the possibility of its leaving remains, and the default assumption is that spells leave remains unless otherwise stated.

It's likely to be a moot point, since I can't see how the Order would find whatever remains... uh... remain, or get them to a cleric who could make use of them in time. But, as far as the 3E rules go, I think you are right and I was mistaken.

[danielxcutter]

I agree the spell doesn't say, but I kind of imagined that being SPLORCHED into a single point would leave very little remains, and so like Disintegrate would need Resurrection to fix rather than Raise Dead.

Doesn’t Raise Dead need the corpse to be relatively intact? I hear that mutilating the body is good enough that soul-stealing weapons are considered inefficient even by the paranoid in Eberron or something like that.

[Emanick]

I agree the spell doesn't say, but I kind of imagined that being SPLORCHED into a single point would leave very little remains, and so like Disintegrate would need Resurrection to fix rather than Raise Dead.

Oh, definitely. The spell makes it pretty clear that the remains of an Implosion victim can't exactly be described as "whole," so Raise Dead almost certainly wouldn't work. There's a reason why I specified that save-or-die spells usually mention if they throw up obstacles against resurrection - there's far too many ways to prevent Raise Dead for every spell to mention that it makes the effect impossible.

Really, all you have to do is behead somebody in order to prevent raising, so even things like the DM's description of how a character dies can stop a cleric below 13th level from being able to raise someone. (Sure, that's kind of a jerk move for the DM to pull if the party is emotionally committed to bringing someone back and they don't have the resources for a 7th-level spell, but it's consistent with how DMs tend to describe combat in flavor terms, at least in my experience.)

[Edhelras]

Sure everyone said so already, but: He MUST get a Fortitude save!!!
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm

Oh great goodness, just let him get that save....

[negentropic]

Implosion probably leaves resurrectable remains. Generally speaking, if a save-or-die spell throws up obstacles against resurrection, those obstacles are mentioned in the spell's text. There is no mention of the destruction of all bodily remains in Implosion's description.

Do you happen to have any offhand example of a spell that does feature that kind of mention? Just for reference?

[Jason]

You are much more assured of that than I.
Trying to kill Durkon in a vicious manner right after he has offered him an olive branch sounds to me like a good candidate for a final rejection, but perhaps you're right that he might still have another, and take it. Maybe when he discovers what the Dark One really wants he'll finally turn against the Plan and try to destroy Xykon. If he does I don't see Redcloak as surviving the story, however. It will be a redemption=death situation. He's done too many evil deeds to receive a happy ending.

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm putting my money on this being a "fake gunshot" trope. You know the one, like in Last Crusade where the mook is pointing a gun at Indy and you hear a gunshot and then Indy is looking for his wound only to find out that Marion, not the mook, fired the gun. I think the implosion was targeted at someone behind Durkon and the art is just showing him caught up on the effect since it's so close. Maybe someone was trying to kill Durkon and Redcloak is saving him.

I realize this isn't very likely, but it's something that no one has mentioned before, so I'm mentioning it now so I'll look really cool in the unlikely event that it happens.

If we're going for longshot predictions where Reddy isn't completely rejecting Durkon's terms, then I'm going to say he's looking down and spotted the demon-roaches, so he's killing Durkon to keep up the appearance that he was just toying with the PCs and is still on Xykon's side, but in truth plans to resurrect Durkon to continue the negotiations later.

[Wildstag]

Given the parameters of the lingering Wind Walk spell, could Durkon shift back to cloud form quickly enough to avoid being killed by the Implosion? Assuming that no other effects are brought into play?

It would take 5 rounds to change back and forth.

I'd kinda hoped RC would have changed somewhat concerning sunk-cost during the invasion, but apparently he's still very obstinate in that regard. Shame. If Redcloak wants immediate change, it might be best for him to go through with Thor's Plan, but on the condition that they still reset the world and create a new one where goblins are on equal footing. But that wouldn't happen in RC's lifetime, and he seems to want to live to see the change rather than put faith in it happening eventually (ironic given his whole class is about faith).

[ByzantiumBhuka]

Sure everyone said so already, but: He MUST get a Fortitude save!!!
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm

Oh great goodness, just let him get that save....

Or perhaps five. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm) I'm hoping beyond hope that the probability of him making all five saves is one in a million... (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)

[TRH]

Or perhaps five. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm) I'm hoping beyond hope that the probability of him making all five saves is one in a million... (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)

Implosion can only target the same creature once. If he saves, he is safe from this spell, and Redcloak would need to cast another to kill him.