A Misguided Cleric of the Nine Hells

[Barbarian MD]

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I have a character concept I want to flesh out. I DM a Storm King's Thunder campaign, but the second arc of the campaign is going to deal very heavily with the nine Hells and Asmodeus.

I REALLY want to introduce an NPC that I hope my characters will love, a Cleric of Asmodeus or Glasya or similar. I want him to be the Ned Flanders of the Hells. Over the top. Super friendly. Always smiling. Devoted to the devil's but completely unaware of how evil they are. Every action in his mind should be good and righteous. Giving to the poor, healing the sick, always with an encouraging word. I don't want someone along the lines of Delores Umbrage from Harry Potter, who is clearly a wolf in sheep's clothing.

I would love to hear ideas on how to flesh him or her and their code of conduct out. One concept I had was a tiefling who grew up a long way from the Hells and is just trying to reconnect to his heritage. But it might be even more fun to swing opposite direction with a friendly gnome or halfling.

Some additional thoughts: I want to emphasize the "evangelical" nature of this cleric. Preaching in the name of Asmodeus. Giving alms to the poor in the name of Asmodeus. Convincing people that Asmodeus is their ticket out of the fugue plane when they die. I need some language for some of his teachings, like instead of "selling their immortal soul" they're "exchanging the troubles of choosing among all the gods and living up to their different codes with the good and perfect will of Asmodeus for their afterlives."

[Asmotherion]

A) From the 9 Hells, only Asmodeus is a Full-Fledged Deity, and thus can have Clerics. The others have Cultists, who may be Warlocks or Clerics of Asmodeus who worship a Prince of Hell who communicates with them as his Representative.

B) This concept can happen if the Cleric focuses on the Lawful aspect of Asmodeus, and champions extream punishments for every crime, in order to keep order. He could genuiently believe he is doing Good in the Way his Deity's teachings taught him. This also does not stop him from Healing people, and generaly believing "My God gave me the power to heal the sick, thus can't be Evil; People who call him that got everything wrong".

C) I'm also kinda intrigued. Is this a standalone adventure you want to put as an extra? I've played Storm Kings Thunder and don't remember any Devils. In any case, since Devil things are one of my favorite themes, I could perhaps help you out with some NPCs.

[Barbarian MD]

A) From the 9 Hells, only Asmodeus is a Full-Fledged Deity, and thus can have Clerics. The others have Cultists, who may be Warlocks or Clerics of Asmodeus who worship a Prince of Hell who communicates with them as his Representative.

B) This concept can happen if the Cleric focuses on the Lawful aspect of Asmodeus, and champions extream punishments for every crime, in order to keep order. He could genuiently believe he is doing Good in the Way his Deity's teachings taught him.

C) I'm also kinda intrigued. Is this a standalone adventure you want to put as an extra? I've played Storm Kings Thunder and don't remember any Devils. If it's a spoiler for the Campain, please DM me the details.

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SKT runs to level 10 (12 in our case because we stretched out chapter 3) but I want the campaign to run all the way to 20 and maybe even beyond. The players will all find themselves Chosen of the gods by the end. There's a 4e Epic module that involves Orcus and the Raven Queen, and I'm homebrewing that once Orcus is out of the way, it messes up the balance of the Blood War and will free Asmodeus to take his war to the Prime Material and Celestia, and the party will go on to stop him.

[Asmotherion]

SKT runs to level 10 (12 in our case because we stretched out chapter 3) but I want the campaign to run all the way to 20 and maybe even beyond. The players will all find themselves Chosen of the gods by the end. There's a 4e Epic module that involves Orcus and the Raven Queen, and I'm homebrewing that once Orcus is out of the way, it messes up the balance of the Blood War and will free Asmodeus to take his war to the Prime Material and Celestia, and the party will go on to stop him.

Oh, I see, it's a post-campain extra adventure. I like doing this too, using a pre-made campain for the first levels, and then either follow up with a high level campain, or a custom one. Nice work.

[Toliudar]

Google the Satanic Temple (NOT the Church of Satan) for a group that combines the trappings of satan worship with some pretty kind, responsible ideologies. Ned Flanders would fit right in!

[thorr-kan]

There's the LN Hextor-worshipping example PC in Complete Champion as a take on this type of character.

[Telonius]

"And I tell you, friends. Asmodeus has a plan! A plan for you, a plan for me. A plan to rid the world of Demons. Do you want to protect your family, your home, your loved ones, in the fight against the Abyss? Do you? Do you want to stop the raging hordes of chaos from spreading over the lands? I tell you truly, friends, no one - no one - has done more to fight against the Demons than Asmodeus. Just sign your name here, and enlist in the fight. Be a soldier in the only war that matters: the war to protect your homes, the war for your very souls!

You there - I see you're a Half-Orc. You've known trouble, I can tell. People fear you for your difference. But I tell you truly, Asmodeus doesn't care one bit about your appearance. He sees through that, and knows the truth of your character. All are welcome in his service, no matter how mighty or humble. He will see to justice, in this world and the next."

[Endarire]

What do you want the PCs to believe about him? Why should they care about him beyond a short-term laugh or joke?

[PrismCat21]

I know the prefect person to give advice on this.

*clears throat*
Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel!!!

[Red Fel]

I know the prefect person to give advice on this.

*clears throat*
Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel!!!

Yes! It is I, the prefect.


I have a character concept I want to flesh out. I DM a Storm King's Thunder campaign, but the second arc of the campaign is going to deal very heavily with the nine Hells and Asmodeus.

I REALLY want to introduce an NPC that I hope my characters will love, a Cleric of Asmodeus or Glasya or similar. I want him to be the Ned Flanders of the Hells. Over the top. Super friendly. Always smiling. Devoted to the devil's but completely unaware of how evil they are. Every action in his mind should be good and righteous. Giving to the poor, healing the sick, always with an encouraging word. I don't want someone along the lines of Delores Umbrage from Harry Potter, who is clearly a wolf in sheep's clothing.

I would love to hear ideas on how to flesh him or her and their code of conduct out. One concept I had was a tiefling who grew up a long way from the Hells and is just trying to reconnect to his heritage. But it might be even more fun to swing opposite direction with a friendly gnome or halfling.

Some additional thoughts: I want to emphasize the "evangelical" nature of this cleric. Preaching in the name of Asmodeus. Giving alms to the poor in the name of Asmodeus. Convincing people that Asmodeus is their ticket out of the fugue plane when they die. I need some language for some of his teachings, like instead of "selling their immortal soul" they're "exchanging the troubles of choosing among all the gods and living up to their different codes with the good and perfect will of Asmodeus for their afterlives."

Okay. Here's the thing. It's your game and it sounds super funny, at least it will be for the first few minutes, before it gets old. But a few points.

First: Technically, in 3/3.5e, the big named Devils aren't deities. They don't get Clerics, per se. They can have cultists, which function very similarly to Clerics but aren't granted Divine Spells. It's more a lifestyle choice than a profession.

Second: Even if, in your setting, Devils could have Clerics, the thing about Clerics is that they don't just automagically get spells. Worshipers of a deity - or here, a Devil - are expected to engage in the traditional practices of worship. This is especially true of Clerics. That can mean festivals, fasts, and other ceremonies. In the case of Evil deities, it can also mean human sacrifice, ritual tortures, and so forth - the sort of things your Ned Flanders can't explain away with "Oh, that's not human, it's tofu." In other words, it's kind of hard for a knowledgeable, devoted servant of a Devil to pretend his master is anything but Lawful Evil incarnate.

Third: A Cleric's alignment must be within one step of his patron's. Asmodeus being Lawful Evil, that means your choices are LE, LN, and NE. There is no Good option. Giving alms to the poor and healing the sick? That's a ding to your alignment. You can't be a Cleric of an LE patron and do that sort of thing, unless you have a distinctly LE purpose for doing so. And your Flanders... doesn't.

So, to summarize: It's your game, use your gag characters as you like, but as-written, you can't do this character.

If I might make a suggestion? Do you remember the episode where Ned Flanders was The Devil? You know, Homer sells his soul for a doughnut?

Do that Ned Flanders. Still friendly, still cheerful, still high-dilly-ho-dilly, but Lawful Evil. Gleefully chatting up the neighbors as he mutilates a cat. Discussing the finer points of gardening and pointing out how orphan tears really helped his begonias this year. Popping by because he heard screaming the other night, not because he's concerned about your safety, but because it sounds like you weren't using thumbscrews properly and could he offer you some pointers?

Don't pretend the Evil isn't there. Embrace it. Keep the personality but dive headfirst into the truly disturbing Evil.

Just a thought.

EDIT: It occurs to me that an illustration may be in order. Observe.

Well, hidey-ho, there, neighbor! I was just about to head down to the rec center for a prayer service to worship our Dark Lord and Master Asmodeus, you wanna come?

See, just as all meat must rot, all mortal life is inherently corrupt, and it's the task of Our Dark Lord to punish that wickedness with great prejudice. And gee golly, is he sure great at it! See, all souls are tainted by sin and wickedness, and when Asmodeus inevitably comes to mastery over this world - which you gosh darn know he will, he's a trooper - all mortal life will be put to the rack. Even us, his closest worshipers, too, but at least our punishments will be mild by comparison.

Why don't ya come on down to the rec center with me? It'll be a brief prayer service, some orphan sacrifice, then cookies and lemonade! I hear Miss Blemins from down the street is bringing her famous casserole - I'd kill a baby for a bite of that, and not just on Tuesdays, either!

Not interested? Well, that's alright, too, buddy. When Our Dark Lord lays waste to all wicked mortal life, I'll pray for you, pal. It won't help, but maybe while Devils pour acid into the charred-out holes that were once your eyes, it'll make you feel a bit better. You have a great day, by golly!
Something like that.

[King of Nowhere]

depending on your general cosmology, there are many injustices the gods may be perpetrating. asmodean may be seen as the rebel against this corrupt system. something like

the gods created you as cattle to feast on your souls after you die. only asmodean respects you
i don't feel like turning this into a rousing speech right now

[Analytica]

Third: A Cleric's alignment must be within one step of his patron's. Asmodeus being Lawful Evil, that means your choices are LE, LN, and NE. There is no Good option. Giving alms to the poor and healing the sick? That's a ding to your alignment. You can't be a Cleric of an LE patron and do that sort of thing, unless you have a distinctly LE purpose for doing so. And your Flanders... doesn't.

I think there is a Forgotten Realms feat where you represent a heretic branch of a faith, relaxing this.

If so, I would focus fully on Lawful - the belief that Hellish punishment of law- and oathbreakers is really, absolutely necessary for there to be good people. Mercy for the guilty would just mean more whose crimes affected the innocent. A prison apologist basically?

[Red Fel]

I think there is a Forgotten Realms feat where you represent a heretic branch of a faith, relaxing this.

If so, I would focus fully on Lawful - the belief that Hellish punishment of law- and oathbreakers is really, absolutely necessary for there to be good people. Mercy for the guilty would just mean more whose crimes affected the innocent. A prison apologist basically?

See, there's the thing. I think it's possible to show awe and respect for such a being, under those misguided premises. If your mindset is "Hell is what they deserve, and they need a monster running the place," I can see showing proper respect for said monster.

But at the end of the day, for worshiping him and pursuing his ideals, you are Evil. Good and Evil are not ambiguous mindsets in D&D, they're not academic points of philosophical debate. They are cosmic constants, as real as gravity and just as painful to ignore. If you follow a route of "pay Evil unto Evil," if you believe that Asmodeus Did Nothing Wrong, then you are Evil, because your mindset finds this whole scenario acceptable.

As fun a concept as it is, narratively speaking, to have a character following the worst baddies for the best (misguided) reasons, D&D morality is particular on the point - you are Evil. Works great in a story, works poorly with D&D mechanics.

[King of Nowhere]

Works great in a story, works poorly with D&D mechanics.

then again, in a case like this, i would not let d&d mechanics get in the way of a good story if i can find some workaround

[Telonius]

The only way you're going to get a non-Evil Cleric of Asmodeus is by going LN. That's why I was thinking that you'd want to play up both the Lawful part (focus on justice) as well as the Blood War. LN seems much more Flanders-esque than NE; the only way you won't slide to the Evil end of the spectrum is if you go all-in on Law. It's also the only way I can see that somebody is truly "misguided" into following Asmodeus.

[TheStranger]

What if his parents were cultists and he just grew up worshipping Asmodeus? He could be a genuinely nice guy, but just never questioned what his parents and their friends taught him about the world. Exactly how much self-delusion that requires depends on how worshipping Asmodeus works in your setting. But don’t underestimate the fact that normal is both learned and relative. If you grow up thinking that all good (not Good) and responsible people have blood-soaked orgies every Saturday, that just seems like the right thing to do.

Also, do you need him to actually ping as Good (or not-Evil)? Because he can be all sorts of Evil by virtue of what he does in service to Asmodeus while also doing nice/Good things. He does the latter because he’s a nice guy, and the former because it’s just What You Do. Requires a certain lack of examination of his life/beliefs, but this is kind of a joke character anyway, right?

[Red Fel]

The only way you're going to get a non-Evil Cleric of Asmodeus is by going LN. That's why I was thinking that you'd want to play up both the Lawful part (focus on justice) as well as the Blood War. LN seems much more Flanders-esque than NE; the only way you won't slide to the Evil end of the spectrum is if you go all-in on Law. It's also the only way I can see that somebody is truly "misguided" into following Asmodeus.

So you're saying he follows all the rules, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff?

[Telonius]

So you're saying he follows all the rules, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff?

Once something has been approved by the Government, it's no longer immoral.

[Thurbane]

I recently became aware of a feat that allows you a chance to not be counted as evil for spell effects, so long as you act non-evil once in a while. Touch of Benevolence (CoR p.22). Not super great mechanically, but seems fitting fluff-wise.

If he took the Heretic of the Faith feat (PoF p.46) as already mentioned, he could also select a more "Flanders Worthy" domain, than those offered my most Hellish powers.

[King of Nowhere]

Also, do you need him to actually ping as Good (or not-Evil)? Because he can be all sorts of Evil by virtue of what he does in service to Asmodeus while also doing nice/Good things. He does the latter because he’s a nice guy, and the former because it’s just What You Do. Requires a certain lack of examination of his life/beliefs, but this is kind of a joke character anyway, right?

oh, yes. just because he's X alignment, it doesn't say anything about his general personality. Especially since he's doing whatever stuff he does for asmodeus as "duty". A lot of nazis were perfectly nice people, when they weren't wiping out some minority as part of their perceived duty.

[Fouredged Sword]

It would also be funny if the guy was absolutely lawful evil to an extreme degree, but got caught in a contract with someone to "be nice". His patron Asmodius refuses to let him out of the deal because it would be A, breaking a contract and B, not nearly as much fun as making this follower suffer due to a careless deal. He's actively looking to be as evil as possible while still being "nice" at all times.

[Bartmanhomer]

It would also be funny if the guy was absolutely lawful evil to an extreme degree, but got caught in a contract with someone to "be nice". His patron Asmodius refuses to let him out of the deal because it would be A, breaking a contract and B, not nearly as much fun as making this follower suffer due to a careless deal. He's actively looking to be as evil as possible while still being "nice" at all times.

That's called an Affably Evil trope. :tongue:

[Eurus]

You mentioned the idea of doing this with tiefling or half-fiend, which is a pretty amusing thought and might actually be a little more viable. The [Evil] subtype does not, by strict RAW, let you meet prerequisites that require you to be evil, it only makes it so that effects which work/fail to work on evil creatures will treat you like you're evil. Buuuut it's close enough that you could houserule it without it seeming too completely out of left field. It's not even a total flavor fail; the idea of a cleric who doesn't fit the alignment, but commits to the superficial aesthetic out of "family tradition" and gets granted magic anyway because they're an actual (distant) blood descendant of Asmodeus seems plausible.

Plus you could have the character's devil grandma or whoever constantly trying to get them to stop being so silly and act properly evil!

[denthor]

Red Fel I am sorry you have provided a free service. You scare me.

As to your points. What about this.


The character compartmentalized the things done at night vs the things done during the day. His day job is a high ranking official. Who cares about law order and adherence to the laws he made.

Sets up a neighborhood watch. Sets up court houses who the judges know who he is but he does not know who they are. Taxes are paid by everyone but redistribute the money at a monthly meeting. Whoever's there gets some outsiders do not know the time, location so their taxes paid enrich the community members.

Could lawful evil be a law unto itself only worried about it's own insiders?

Thos would make a town of 500 or so a law unto themselves

[Red Fel]

Red Fel I am sorry you have provided a free service. You scare me.

As to your points. What about this.


The character compartmentalized the things done at night vs the things done during the day. His day job is a high ranking official. Who cares about law order and adherence to the laws he made.

Sets up a neighborhood watch. Sets up court houses who the judges know who he is but he does not know who they are. Taxes are paid by everyone but redistribute the money at a monthly meeting. Whoever's there gets some outsiders do not know the time, location so their taxes paid enrich the community members.

Could lawful evil be a law unto itself only worried about it's own insiders?

Thos would make a town of 500 or so a law unto themselves

I have no idea what this means.

The fact is, one can be Lawful and still Evil. One can construct an orderly, efficient society and still be a monster. I often point to the Church of Hextor as an example of this - they promote schools, hospitals, and religious and physical education. They do this, however, to raise Evil soldiers for an Evil crusade. They are, without question, Lawful. But also Evil.

The difference is that they are not innocently sweet. They can be friendly, they can be charming, they can even be your best buddy and your happy neighbor. But they have no illusions about what they do. They aren't doing it for the public good, except that they see the public good as "our collective strength and ability to crush the weak." They don't do it out of love for others, but because they know that it's literally do or die - those who disobey are punished to the fullest extent of the draconian law.

You can be Lawful during the day and Evil at night. But being Good during the day and Evil at night only works if the former is a disguise. If it's not who you really are, but just a facade. Because a person who is genuinely Good cannot go out at night and do genuine Evil. (Sorry, Batman.) That person is, by definition, not Good. Not necessarily Evil, but definitely not Good.

But Lawful? Easy.

[denthor]

I have no idea what this means.

The fact is, one can be Lawful and still Evil. One can construct an orderly, efficient society and still be a monster. I often point to the Church of Hextor as an example of this - they promote schools, hospitals, and religious and physical education. They do this, however, to raise Evil soldiers for an Evil crusade. They are, without question, Lawful. But also Evil.

The difference is that they are not innocently sweet. They can be friendly, they can be charming, they can even be your best buddy and your happy neighbor. But they have no illusions about what they do. They aren't doing it for the public good, except that they see the public good as "our collective strength and ability to crush the weak." They don't do it out of love for others, but because they know that it's literally do or die - those who disobey are punished to the fullest extent of the draconian law.

You can be Lawful during the day and Evil at night. But being Good during the day and Evil at night only works if the former is a disguise. If it's not who you really are, but just a facade. Because a person who is genuinely Good cannot go out at night and do genuine Evil. (Sorry, Batman.) That person is, by definition, not Good. Not necessarily Evil, but definitely not Good.

But Lawful? Easy.

You knew exactly what I was talking about. Do evil to enforce what is best for all. This is the essence of Hextor.
Compartmentalizing means you suppress the nagging guilt of the evil and marginalize the repression you have caused to non ruling class under the greater good for society. Your right it is still evil your just putting a positive spin on it for the bottom rung.

You scare me because you make it sound reasonable.

[PrismCat21]

You scare me because you make it sound reasonable.

It IS perfectly reasonable. It's just not morally acceptable to some people.
They know exactly what they are doing and are okay with it. It's effective. It works.
Someone with morals more in line with the 'Good' or 'Chaos" end of the alignment chart will not find it as reasonable.

[Yanagi]

I have a character concept I want to flesh out. I DM a Storm King's Thunder campaign, but the second arc of the campaign is going to deal very heavily with the nine Hells and Asmodeus.

I REALLY want to introduce an NPC that I hope my characters will love, a Cleric of Asmodeus or Glasya or similar. I want him to be the Ned Flanders of the Hells. Over the top. Super friendly. Always smiling. Devoted to the devil's but completely unaware of how evil they are. Every action in his mind should be good and righteous. Giving to the poor, healing the sick, always with an encouraging word. I don't want someone along the lines of Delores Umbrage from Harry Potter, who is clearly a wolf in sheep's clothing.

I would love to hear ideas on how to flesh him or her and their code of conduct out. One concept I had was a tiefling who grew up a long way from the Hells and is just trying to reconnect to his heritage. But it might be even more fun to swing opposite direction with a friendly gnome or halfling.

Some additional thoughts: I want to emphasize the "evangelical" nature of this cleric. Preaching in the name of Asmodeus. Giving alms to the poor in the name of Asmodeus. Convincing people that Asmodeus is their ticket out of the fugue plane when they die. I need some language for some of his teachings, like instead of "selling their immortal soul" they're "exchanging the troubles of choosing among all the gods and living up to their different codes with the good and perfect will of Asmodeus for their afterlives."

I always propose that the core of LE is "well, there is a rule, therefore I am permitted to do this bad/cruel/selfish thing, and I will not acknowledge that I could choose not to." Hence how both literary and RPG devils emphasize the letter of the Law and not the spirit of the Law, understand the advantageous exceptions but chafe at general moral principles that constrain their choices.

So your NPC is a kind of double reversal: a character who accepts the general premise of a cruel system but when trying to act as an agent of the system continuously interprets The Rules in ways that create exceptions: "well, there are the rules of Hell, but clearly there is mitigating circumstance applicable...."

And it seems like the intent here is comedy through contradiction and surprise, not to set up some kind of tragi-comic study of personal delusion. So Rule of Funny applies and the character doesn't have to make perfect sense.

So...the center issue here is that if the character is supposed to be authentically altruistic and misguided, they have to stay oblivious to the full implications of how the Hells operate...which means they have to be very unobservant.

Well, to hit the characterization you want it's probably best if it's a person who ardently believes in the virtue of institutions, to the point that they cannot acknowledge the built-in exploitative elements, but lacks the critical thinking faculties to reflect on the contradictions between their actions (actually altruistic) and the dogma (which is filled with technicalities that justify selfishness and the abuse of power as long as a nominal level of "agreement" is reached). So while an LE dogma might tell them that people reach their natural level and shouldn't be lifted up through generosity, this particular individual ends up seeing each charity case as the exception..."this isn't like the normal situation, these people really have been left out in the cold, the system would want me to help them."

In the abstract, the character thinks of the rules of Hell are just. "Somebody has to be tough or everything would just fly apart, doncha know?" When the rules say something bad happens, or something bad happens and this character learns of it without any context, the character views it as part of the normal and right order of the cosmos.

"Those people must have done something to deserve THAT."

But when trying to apply those rules, the character always softens the blow, sees extenuating circumstances, and fails to clamp down with using the "I am permitted, the rules say so" logic to selfish ends. They're wheedling and picking at exceptions exactly like a devil, but to opposite effect...but they're not situationally aware enough to realize their behavior is a breach of norms.

Whenever something that could cause cognitive dissonance comes up they backfill with excuses or go into affective bypass (centering their emotional reaction, losing track of the specifics in favor of tropes and thought-terminating cliches)...with the twist being that the affective bypass is never angry shouting but instead a kind of unflappable optimism that everything will work out because all things have a rightful place. The system (devilish ethics) produces the best outcomes; people get what they earned; the alternative is just a plain mess.

In alignment terms, the character is synthetically LN: doing LG works but supporting the infrastructure of an LE system by doing so. They're not banal because every time they encounter the actual functioning of the rules of Hell they're surprised, think that a miscarriage of the rules has happened, and they push against those cruel/wicked outcomes.

So here's the other half of the joke: the forces of Hell think this person is a genius playing some kind of incredible long game. The fiends keep trying to find the angle to their good/generous acts, and not finding one assume that it must be some really next-level genius strategy. As a consequence, the character sometimes gets help from other LE individuals and institutions who imagine that eventually this will pay out when the grand scheme ends...and these positive interactions with devils just reinforce the cleric's blinkered worldview that The System Works.