What Tier Is A Warblade/Wizard Multiclass?

[Bartmanhomer]

Hey everyone. I have a question: What tier is a Warblade/Wizard multiclass? :smile:

[tyckspoon]

.. have you ever started a thread where the very first reply was not somebody asking for more information on what you meant..? :smallconfused:

Answer is 'it depends', because there's so many different ways you could do this - from the obvious extremes of Wizard 19/Warblade 1 (Wizard tier because it's just a Wizard) to Warblade 19/Wizard 1 (Warblade tier because it's basically just a Warblade) to an even split, or what happens if you actually use the prestige classes meant to enable this kind of multiclass.. or maybe you actually mean to ask about gestalt rules, and that's another question altogether.

[Bartmanhomer]

.. have you ever started a thread where the very first reply was not somebody asking for more information on what you meant..? :smallconfused:

Answer is 'it depends', because there's so many different ways you could do this - from the obvious extremes of Wizard 19/Warblade 1 (Wizard tier because it's just a Wizard) to Warblade 19/Wizard 1 (Warblade tier because it's basically just a Warblade) to an even split, or what happens if you actually use the prestige classes meant to enable this kind of multiclass.. or maybe you actually mean to ask about gestalt rules, and that's another question altogether.

I was just asking a simple question but now that you mention this I was wondering about the even split classes Warblade 10/Wizard 10.

[Edea]

I was just asking a simple question but now that you mention this I was wondering about the even split classes Warblade 10/Wizard 10.

...that's worse than straight Warblade 20, much less straight Wizard 20.

[Bartmanhomer]

...that's worse than straight Warblade 20, much less straight Wizard 20.

Ooohhh...really? Is that bad huh? I always thought that an even split class would be even. :sigh:

[el minster]

Look into Jade Pheonix Mage

[Bartmanhomer]

Look into Jade Pheonix Mage

I check the prestige class out. It doesn't look Iike a remarkable prestige class unless if I missed something here. :confused:

[Buufreak]

It is full bab, 8/10 caster progression, some maneuvers, and some abilities. The point here is just like theurge classes that give you the goods of 2 classes at once, so does this about 80% of the time. You could do something like wizard 8/ warble 2/ jpm 10, and end up with almost full wizard, plus armor, bab, maneuvers, and such.

[Bartmanhomer]

It is full bab, 8/10 caster progression, some maneuvers, and some abilities. The point here is just like theurge classes that give you the goods of 2 classes at once, so does this about 80% of the time. You could do something like wizard 8/ warble 2/ jpm 10, and end up with almost full wizard, plus armor, bab, maneuvers, and such.

Intriguing. I like this prestige class already. Thank you Buufreak for explaining more deeply. :biggrin:

[Dimers]

For a 10/10 split, if your last level was warblade, you could get one maneuver as high as level 8 to go with your level 5 spells. That's not bad. In fact, I'd call it better problem-solving potential than a warblade20 would have -- but not so much more potential that it'd rise to tier 2. It's tier 3, able to contribute meaningfully in most situations.

The character probably wouldn't fill one party role, so you might find your fellow players complaining about you never making a BIG difference in any given encounter. But you'd pull your weight well enough overall. EDIT: Oh, and progress through the levels would be weird and seem slow compared to your single-classed allies, too. Starting the game at 20th level would feel different than playing all the way from 1st.

[NigelWalmsley]

...that's worse than straight Warblade 20, much less straight Wizard 20.

As a general rule of thumb, X 10/Y 10 where X is a class with some kind of ability progression (spells, maneuvers, vestiges) is probably garbage unless Y progresses whatever it was that X was doing.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I was just asking a simple question but now that you mention this I was wondering about the even split classes Warblade 10/Wizard 10.

Very few build questions can be phrased that simply without forcing those who answer to either ask for clarification of make a whole slew of assumptions.

Now that you've clarified, that's a pretty weak build. T3 at the end is probably about right but it's gonna fluctuate between T4 and T2 along the way, depending on exact order and other unspecified choices. Could even be T1 up to level 10 but justifying the effective 180 in character development at that point would be something of a stretch to credulity.

Now a wizard/ warblade/ Jade Phoenix mage could reasonably make T1 at 20, having lost only 3 caster levels and picked up some martial tricks along the way but will be feeling the lost caster levels for most of his career. Probably T1 at start, T2 by the middle of the PrC, and back to T1 by 20; assuming you put the wizard aspect at the core of the build.

Naturally, literally all of the above is -heavily- dependent on spell selection and deployment during play. If you really suck at playing wizards and gishing you'll drop right to the T4 floor of the warblade or even to T5 if you sunk most of your levels outside the PrC into wizard because "wizard is bestest" without considering your own skill.

[Bartmanhomer]

Very few build questions can be phrased that simply without forcing those who answer to either ask for clarification of make a whole slew of assumptions.

Now that you've clarified, that's a pretty weak build. T3 at the end is probably about right but it's gonna fluctuate between T4 and T2 along the way, depending on exact order and other unspecified choices. Could even be T1 up to level 10 but justifying the effective 180 in character development at that point would be something of a stretch to credulity.

Now a wizard/ warblade/ Jade Phoenix mage could reasonably make T1 at 20, having lost only 3 caster levels and picked up some martial tricks along the way but will be feeling the lost caster levels for most of his career. Probably T1 at start, T2 by the middle of the PrC, and back to T1 by 20; assuming you put the wizard aspect at the core of the build.

Naturally, literally all of the above is -heavily- dependent on spell selection and deployment during play. If you really suck at playing wizards and gishing you'll drop right to the T4 floor of the warblade or even to T5 if you sunk most of your levels outside the PrC into wizard because "wizard is bestest" without considering your own skill.

Cool. That's very interesting. "We can rebuild him. We have the technology of splatbooks. We can create the ultimate gish character in history."

[Kelb_Panthera]

Cool. That's very interesting. "We can rebuild him. We have the technology of splatbooks. We can create the ultimate gish character in history."

For my money, the best gish is a paladin/ crusader/ Ruby Knight Vindicator. The paladin list is surprisingly decent. Battle blessing from complete champion means you don't have to choose between casting and stabbing while divine impetus means you have enough swift actions to be able to cast while using boosts and counters. All the moving parts just mesh together beautifully.

If you can square the fluff circle well enough to get Sword of the Arcane order in there, it's probably a bit stronger than the build you asked about and is squarely T3 either way.

Mind, I said best not strongest. The strongest gish is just whatever wizard / x/ y/ z that doesn't lose caster levels while picking up BAB 16+ and a decent HD on the way to 20. Odds are good that such a character is basically just a more flavorful BFC and buff wizard in play though since action economy will demand he choose between casting and fighting on any given round.

[Buufreak]

For my money, the best gish is a paladin/ crusader/ Ruby Knight Vindicator.

Agreed, as long as the build is preceeded by "cleric / prestige"

[nedz]

Wizard progression is non-linear, which means that Wizard 20 is not just twice as powerful as Wizard 10 — it's many times more powerful.
Warblade progression is less impressive but Wizard 10 / Warblade 10 would have IL 15 allowing level 8 manoeuvres so this is potentially harmed less than wizard.
So we are likely a higher tier than Warblade, but quite which would depend on the build.

Lets look at
Warblade 1 / Wizard 2 / Warblade +1 / Wizard +2 / Warblade +1 / Wizard +2 / Warblade +1 / JPM 10
This has a final IL of 17 but, more importantly, each new Warblade level comes with an IL which allows for higher level manoeuvres. The Wizard casting is 13 levels here.
This build favours Warblade development but can still cast spells better than the basic 10/10 build above.

Now consider
Warblade 1 / Wizard 9 / JPM 10
The final IL here is 15.5 but we have 16 levels of casting
This is T1 since we are favouring Wizard.

[NigelWalmsley]

Wizard progression is non-linear, which means that Wizard 20 is not just twice as powerful as Wizard 10 — it's many times more powerful.

This is not just true of Wizards. As the interaction between CR and EL shows, character power progression is actually supposed to be exponential.

[Bucky]

As a general rule of thumb, X 10/Y 10 where X is a class with some kind of ability progression (spells, maneuvers, vestiges) is probably garbage unless Y progresses whatever it was that X was doing.

For martial initiators, the non-initiating class contributes slow progression to the maneuver-granting class as long as the maneuver-granting class takes the last level(s). So it typically doesn't go all the way to 'garbage' as long as there's any synergy.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Agreed, as long as the build is preceeded by "cleric / prestige"

That brings up a pretty serious contention though; what is a paladin spell? A very similar issue arises from SotAO but it's a lot less of an issue there since wizard and paladin lists have little overlap.

On a prestige paladin though, there's a -lot- of overlap between the cleric and paladin lists. More importantly, the prestige class header says the character should get access to the spells unique to each of those classes but doesn't go into detail on the mechanics of that allowance.

This means there are four readings;

Every spell the character casts become "paladin spells"
The spells that appear on the paladin list are paladin spells, regardless of overlap
Only the spells unique to the paladin are paladin spells
None of the character's spells are paladin spells.


Now the first and fourth are pretty obviously broken with the former being insanely over-powered and the latter rendering battle-blessing pointless and making the character little different from other gishes.

Between the other two, I'd probably go with the third as a matter of balancing. You want battle blessing to still work but the early access from being cleric based cranks it way up even with that reading.

Then there's the SotAO issue; what is a paladin slot?

This one only has three readings;

All of the character's slots become paladin slots upon attaining the class
Only those slots gained from levels in prestige paladin are paladin slots
none of the character's slots are paladin slots


The first essentially makes you a mystic theurge but immensely better. That's probably too much. The second is more complicated in that it creates a choice to take more prestige paladin levels for more paladin slots but that's probably a good thing. The third is the simplest but cuts out one of the more flavorful and unique paladin options.

Then, of course, there's the interaction between the two. It's the same as the battle blessing question but with the question being whether a wizard spell prepared in a paladin spot becomes a paladin spell.

This one seems a lot more clear to me by the feat's constant use of the term wizard spell but a GM can still rule that wizard spells cast from paladin slots are paladin spells for battle blessing. If the latter case, it creates a tremendous potential interaction with the first question since it opens up the possibility of casting spells from the wizard list as swift actions at will.


Or you can skip most of that by just using the paladin base class and still get a powerful, effective character that's just not the most powerful non pun-pun build possible.

[Buufreak]

That brings up a point, at least for my considering. Is SotAO that required on a cleric/prestige paladin? I get why it would be taken, but for the sake of contention and rulings, I'd personally rather just stick with the cleric casting, supplemented by the handful of paladin spells and the maneuvers. It will already be plenty to play at most tables I find or play at.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That brings up a point, at least for my considering. Is SotAO that required on a cleric/prestige paladin? I get why it would be taken, but for the sake of contention and rulings, I'd personally rather just stick with the cleric casting, supplemented by the handful of paladin spells and the maneuvers. It will already be plenty to play at most tables I find or play at.

Like I said when I brought up the build in the first place; battle blessing shifting the paladin spells to swift actions allows the character to fight and cast together, round by round.

Without it, you're either a caster or a warrior on any given round unless you use something like DMM (quicken) with very limited usage. Just like every other gish. You may have more absolute power but you're less fluid in its use. That matters in play.

[Buufreak]

Right, but battle blessing and arcane order aren't the same thing. Having paladins on swift, cleric chassis, and maneuvers on standard is plenty. No need to cheat some wizard spells onto it and worry about how the rules will work with that with spell lists and slots.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Right, but battle blessing and arcane order aren't the same thing. Having paladins on swift, cleric chassis, and maneuvers on standard is plenty. No need to cheat some wizard spells onto it and worry about how the rules will work with that with spell lists and slots.

Even pulling SotAO out of the equation, the question of what spells get to be swift because of battle blessing is not a small matter. The cleric chassis is weaker than the paladin chassis too, even if it is just for four levels.

Finally, there's build priorities.

You're not side-stepping the paladin's MADness by using prestige paladin. You're just giving wisdom outsized importance because of its tie to the now much more central casting ability of the character. You still need strength for to-hit and damage, con for durability, and charisma for smiting, turning, divine grace, and lay on hands. You can pick up serenity if Dragon material is allowed at level 9 but that's gonna make those couple of levels rough and it may not count for turning since that didn't come from paladin in this case. And that's one more tax feat on top of mounted combat.

Speaking of feats, caster feats or warrior feats after you've payed your taxes? DMM is two feats down if you get an unfavorable ruling on battle blessing. Power attack is pretty well a must have for fighting types, even with maneuvers. You're gonna need to pull some stuff to get much customization out of this sector.

Even gear is getting pushed around by this choice; Night sticks at 7500 a pop? Pearls and wands or arms and armor get upgraded first?

Common wisdom says you should take caster options all the way to optimize power but is that even a gish anymore? Or is it just a cleric with some extra tricks?

I'm not arguing the cleric based RKV isn't stronger, it certainly is. I'm arguing that it's less elegant, less gishy.

[Elves]

None of the character's spells are paladin spells.


Where is the cite for the prestige paladin even granting you access to paladin-only spells? From what I can see it just advances your cleric casting. The fact that you have levels in a PRC with "paladin" in the name doesn't automatically mean your cleric spells would work with Battle Blessing.

[tyckspoon]

Where is the cite for the prestige paladin even granting you access to paladin-only spells? From what I can see it just advances your cleric casting. The fact that you have levels in a PRC with "paladin" in the name doesn't automatically mean your cleric spells would work with Battle Blessing.

"Unique Spells
The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available."

It's part of the general intro to the concept of the 'Prestige versions of base classes' section. I would still lean toward 'Prestige Paladin doesn't actually have any Paladin spells', tho, because you're just adding spells to the character's Cleric options.

(..well. The actual option I favor would be "If Prestige Paladin is a thing than normal Paladin doesn't exist, so you need to rewrite all the Paladin-specific options to work the way you want them to with Prestige Paladin instead." In this theoretical world it would be quite clear how Battle Blessing works because it would explicitly be written to cover Prestige Paladin instead of assuming you're using Paladin as a base class. Maybe it's not a Paladin only thing, can be taken by any Divine caster, and allows you to Swift cast any spell that is Personal only and spell level 4 or lower.)

[Elves]

Thanks tyckspoon. Agreed, it sounds like you're expanding your cleric spell list. Interpreting it as granting you "paladin spells" that would work with Battle Blessing is a stretch.

[Edivdrone]

Well, that went far afield.

Returning to the original question; generally speaking, when dealing with classes that have abilities that directly build on each level, such as primary casters and martial adepts, dropping levels to gain something else is nearly crippling. There are prestige classes and options that lessen this, but generally, slowing your progression to the class's end goodies hurts more than it helps. This is especially true if you are stopping the campaign at level 20, which it sounds like you are. The slowed acquisition of 9th level spells for a caster hurts, a lot. Slowing the gain of maneuvers, particularly the high levels ones, stings.

Now, where this starts to become less important is if you are planning to go epic from the get go. There are quite a few builds and prestige classes that now become much more appealing given that the slowed progression to the final spells pays off with amazing options once you get to those points, making that intermediate painful bit worth the wait. For instance, given your two stated classes, lets look at the following:
Start as an elf. Elves get a few martial weapon proficiencies for free, which is important for latter. Take three levels of wizard and get a metamagic feat you like. Take one level of sorcerer. Now take ten levels of Ultimate Magus (Complete Mage), choosing to advance your wizard casting every chance you get, and grabbing Combat Casting somewhere in there. At this point, you are CL14, have the spells/day of an 11th level wizard, the spells/day and known of a 10th level sorcerer, an effective caster level of 15/14, and can use spell slots to apply metamagic feats to your spells of up to 5th level as you cast them. As a straight wizard, you'd have gained access to 7th level spells already, but instead have just gotten a hold of 6th level spells. It's painful, but push through the suffering to the light at the end of the tunnel. Now, at this point, I recommend taking 5 levels of Abjurant Champion, as this sets you up for later, Good BAB, d10 hit die, and oh yes, all force spells that improve AC get a bonus equal to your levels of Abjurant Champion. This means that basic Mage Armor now grants a +9 armor bonus to AC, and Mailed Might of the Magelords (Lost Empires of Faerun) provides a +13 armor bonus to AC. Shield is similarly affected. Now you're at CL 19, with spells/day of a 16th level wizard, so you will want four more levels with casting to hit max spells/day for wizard. For cheese, lets do Argent Savant, for an additional +2 to AC from force armor and shield spells, and they now get extended for free. So now that you have your max spell progression, lets look at Warblade. Advance to level 20 directly for Stance Mastery, taking Practiced Spellcaster as necessary to keep your caster level even with you character level. Behold a casting, fighting, terror. Now take levels in Jade Phoenix Mage.

There are other optimization methods that could be used, such as looking for classes that would let you get sneak attack (sneak attack + ray spells = nasty), or Eldritch Knight or the like to optimize BAB. But stealing from your casting progression is, again, a Bad Idea unless there is a definite payoff past level 20.

[Endarire]

@OP: A major assumption about building 3.x characters is that, at least on full casters, you should minimize dips into other classes that don't progress your main thing. For casters, that's casting.

Having played a Wizard/Swordsage/Jade Phoenix Mage (Conjurer5/Incantatrix3/Swordsage1/Jade Phoenix MageX or similar), I felt the pain of being a spell level behind a full caster. I've normally played my full casters as full casters, but I gished because I got tired of running out of stamina.