PDA

View Full Version : a way to avoid weapon-like spells?



kemmotar
2007-10-30, 08:39 PM
The situation is as follows...suppose a caster targets you with a disintigrate or scorching ray...how you know doesn't really matter..suppose you just know so you've readied an action so that when he launches the spell you move away from the place you were. Since its a ray it acts pretty much like an arrow...Therefore if you move, would it hit you?

As a side question, if someone attacks you with a bow(and has multiple attacks) when he launches the first arrow you move from your previous position, the arrow i would guess is an automatic miss, according to the previous theory. How this affect the rest of the attacks? I'd guess the attacker can follow your actions with the rest of the attacks as long as you stay within his range. The attack penalty for attacking someone who is running is -8, what would be the penalty for moving?

Also, if you can't do this normally, or quick enough to avoid a spell you could use a swift action to avoid it with chronocharm of the horizon walker(this is becoming for some reason my favorite item!!)

Also one way to know right before he attacks is to have a ring of spellbattle and some spellcraft...Though you would only know the moment he is casting the spell?How would moving affect non weaponlike spells? Spells that require a will save, say feeblemind or similar spells...i don't think moving would affect it unless if you go outside of his range...?

olelia
2007-10-30, 08:47 PM
I would guess this would generally work...but I would rule that it would be a VERY high reflex save seeing as how an arrow can go up to 30 yard in like 1 second or so.

chionophile
2007-10-30, 09:20 PM
...I thought you couldn't go on someone else's turn. And the mechanic for moving out of the way of a beam is your dodge ac (and similar types). Cause you, y'know, dodge it.

Fax Celestis
2007-10-30, 09:26 PM
...I thought you couldn't go on someone else's turn. And the mechanic for moving out of the way of a beam is your dodge ac (and similar types). Cause you, y'know, dodge it.

Exactly. And the miss thing you described would only occur if someone was aiming at a square instead of a target.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-10-30, 09:28 PM
A character attacks another character, not the square. A readied action to move will not affect this no matter what form the attack takes. You will only deny your opponent the attack by moving beyond the range of whatever weapon or spell he or she is using.

Think of it this way: part of hitting a creature in combat is leading your shot. The entire time you're setting up the shot, you're keeping an eye on your opponent for changes in his or her movement pattern to begin with.

Also remember that taking a readied action actually happens before the other person's turn. Although they have pretty much commited to whatever course of action they are taking, your action still takes place completely before theirs truly starts. They have plenty of freedom to make a slight adjustment in aim.

Also: There is no penalty for attacking someone that is running. Indeed, there is effectively a bonus, as a running character is denied his or her Dex bonus to AC.

Brickwall
2007-10-30, 09:31 PM
What you described is not a "readied action". That is called Total Defense, which adds a +4 dodge bonus to your AC. Period.

kemmotar
2007-10-30, 09:46 PM
Hmm...yeah i kinda see your point about the move part, but how about moving after the attack has been "unleased" but before it hits...it might take a pretty big reflex DC to make it...but is it possible?Either this way or in any other way?

Also considering the fact that a round comprises mainly of a standard action and a move action,could you say that each action takes about 3 seconds, half the round(though this is purely artificial) thus a swift action would take much less than that time, thus moving as a swift action would be much faster. The item itself says the following(pretty much, can't be bothered to look at the description right now:smalltongue: ): Time seems to slow down around you as you move at an incredible speed. Thus moving as a swift action, effectively time slows down around you and you move faster relative to the others movements...Thus an arrow unleashed from the bow would also slow down...Also what if you ready an action to happen right after the opponent has unleashed the arrow so he can't change the trajectory(or the spell for that matter?)

Gamebird
2007-10-30, 10:01 PM
Hmm...yeah i kinda see your point about the move part, but how about moving after the attack has been "unleased" but before it hits...it might take a pretty big reflex DC to make it...but is it possible?Either this way or in any other way?

By the rules, as far as I know, that's ridiculous and impossible. It's like saying "I wait until his sword touches my skin, then I move out of the way before I take damage." D&D doesn't work that way.

You might find more pleasure in 2nd edition AD&D, where rounds were 1 minute long and actions were a two-step affair: first you declared your action in reverse initiative order, then you took it later if it was still viable. For example, if I'm using a two-handed sword against an ogre, and the ogre beats me on initiative and decides to flee, then I don't get an action this round due to my target being out of range when my initiative comes around. In this system, it would be possible for someone to declare their action is to move away as soon as anyone points at them or threatens them. If they win initiative, then they'd be able to begin their action when the triggering circumstance occurs. However, many spells have very fast casting times (base of 1 initiative segment per level) and you can only move one 5' space per initiative segment. So unless cover or the spell range limit is very nearby, you can't move out of the spell's range before it zaps you.

Even in 2nd edition AD&D, you can't take your action between the time a spell is successfully cast (or an arrow released, or a sword swung) and the time that it connects with you. If you wait that long, then you're screwed and you have to take the consequences. Your AC and hit points already assume you're doing everything possible not to be harmed.

Stormcrow
2007-10-30, 10:17 PM
For the purpose of your debate a livery issue 66lb longbow clocks at about 66 feet per second. So in your theoretical 3 second action it can travel an easy 198ft of distance.

(You ask why I know this silently, and I answer; I had a guy in a freeform game try and jump out of the way of an arrow from a shooter 60ft away so I did my research. For interest, a heavy crossbow bolt flies at roughly the same speed but with greater force and a .22 rifle fires at 200f/ps)

Hawriel
2007-10-30, 11:03 PM
ray spells are essentialy a beam of light. you cant dodge that. Try and dodge your friend turning a flashlight or lazer pointer on and off at you.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-10-30, 11:14 PM
There's a way to avoid these attacks. It is called your "armor class". This amazing ability lets you dodge arrows, ray spells, even melee attacks! It is a useful skill that all characters should invest in.

Mojo_Rat
2007-10-31, 12:01 AM
The delayed action idea would work if there is something to stand behind. So..

As soon as he shoots i duck behind the wall

is a valid action. But This is the only way to do what you are Asking. The only reason i can think to do this And not just move on your own turn is if you wanted your opponent to shoot at you and waste his attack.

Otherwise assume if you move your opponents ability to hit you is rated in your touch Ac and the to hit roll of of the attacker.

You might be able to use the trick vs area affect spells though since they are launched at an Area. there is a magic item from the dungeon book (forget the exact name) called boots of sidestepping that lets you take a 5't step as an immediate action when targeted by traps or fireballs etc.

Its different than the boots of the same name in the magic item compendiom though.

Cicero
2007-10-31, 01:15 AM
You might be interested in the Grim'n'Gritty 4.0 rules for D&D. The last revision costs a few bucks (four, I think), but it's pretty cool-- and it has actions much like you describe. Of course, if you get tail-slapped by a dragon, you die. :smallwink:

Iormungandr
2007-10-31, 01:25 AM
I would guess this would generally work...but I would rule that it would be a VERY high reflex save seeing as how an arrow can go up to 30 yard in like 1 second or so.
If indeed there is a reflex save involved the Dive for Cover feat (ComAdv 108) might be of interest.


Also, if you can't do this normally, or quick enough to avoid a spell you could use a swift action to avoid it with chronocharm of the horizon walker(this is becoming for some reason my favorite item!!)
The only chance you would have of dodging in this manner would be to use an immediate action (which, technically, expends your swift action for the next round) because only immediate actions can be performed when it isn't your turn. Off the top of my head I can't think of any spells, items, or abilities that grant a "evade [blah]" as an immediate action. Sure you've got some teleportation stuff that can go on, but I think the fastest they get is swift. I know at least Shadow Blink, the 7th level Shadow Hand maneuver from Tome of Battle, teleports as a swift action, but that's just because I was browsing through ToB a while ago. There's probably an analogous spell somewhere, but, again, I'm unaware of any that go faster than swift. And, again, in order to act on the opponents turn, the action would have to be an immediate action.


Thus moving as a swift action, effectively time slows down around you and you move faster relative to the others movements...Thus an arrow unleashed from the bow would also slow down...Also what if you ready an action to happen right after the opponent has unleashed the arrow so he can't change the trajectory(or the spell for that matter?)
But swift actions can only be taken on your turn. Immediate actions are swift actions you can use in other people's turns.


You might be able to use the trick vs area affect spells though since they are launched at an Area. there is a magic item from the dungeon book (forget the exact name) called boots of sidestepping that lets you take a 5't step as an immediate action when targeted by traps or fireballs etc.
Dungeonscape page 40. But the boots of sidestepping are only activated when you get a reflex save. If there is a reflex save, you may take a 5ft step as an immediate action (before making the reflex save). If your 5ft step would take you out of the attack's area, you avoid it completely. The ruling is a little more specific than that, but I'm not going to quote it all verbatim. If there is no reflex save, the boots are of no use.

kemmotar
2007-10-31, 09:24 AM
As soon as he shoots i duck behind the wall

is a valid action. But This is the only way to do what you are Asking. The only reason i can think to do this And not just move on your own turn is if you wanted your opponent to shoot at you and waste his attack.

the thing is then that he doesn't waste his action since if you ready an action to hide if he targets you this happens before he shoots so he can choose another target or do something else...so nothing wasted...

but if you did move right in front of an archer as he prepares to shoot you, wouldn't he have to shoot while in melee thus taking a penalty to attack roll or fall back and take an AoO...of course he can tumble...blahh...

Might look at 4th edition...are there any items that allow you to move as an immediate action, or teleport? If not what would be the cost of creating one considering that moving as a swift action 1/day costs 900gp...?And it takes up an unusual body slot(ie its a pin...)

elliott20
2007-10-31, 09:31 AM
this is why a lot of ray spells require a range touch AC attack. So the wizard still does have to, you know, aim. and the defender will still ahve to, you know, dodge.

tainsouvra
2007-10-31, 01:03 PM
You can't ready a move action to move out of the way of a ranged attack aimed at you, so I really don't know what the OP is talking about. If you want to dodge, use your dodge bonus to AC :smallconfused:

-Cor-
2007-10-31, 01:59 PM
I didn't read the whole thread so someone probably mentioned this earlier, but here's how my group would accomplish what you're describing.

__________________
Scenario: You and an Attacking Sorceror (AS). 60 x 60 room. Numerous jutting wall sections providing Cover/Total Cover. Sorceror has first initiative.

AS: Move Action - 30ft move, Standard Action - Casts random buff

You: Move Action - None, Standard Action - Ready (Condition - Caster begins to cast : Action - Move behind available Total Cover)

AS: Move Action - 5ft step, Standard Action - Casts Scorching Ray {Interrupted}

You: Interrupt (Reason: Ready Condition Met) - Move behind Total Cover.

AS: Resume (Reason: Person with Ready Action) - Spell fails due to no Line of Effect.
___________________


This works for our group. A few caveats however.

- The AS could have been casting Cat's Grace and you still would have moved into Total Cover.
- There are spells that ignore Total Cover. (Seeking Ray)


Anyway, YMMV.

Tyger
2007-10-31, 03:06 PM
<snipped all the good example>

Exactly. That is how you do it with the rules.

If you can achieve total cover, you are probably OK from the sort of spell the OP is talking about. Short of that though, there is NO way to do what is being requested. As has been said a couple times, that's what your AC is for. That's how the system works.

cupkeyk
2007-10-31, 03:08 PM
Has anyone mentioned Melee Evasion from PH2? Despite the name it is effective against a single attack made against you by your Dodge target, regardless of being ranged or melee. Since you are fighting defensively AND designating a dodge opponent, it effectively translates to preparing an attack from someone.

NEO|Phyte
2007-10-31, 03:15 PM
I'd say that my favorite way to avoid weapon-like spells is Wall of Blades. No fancy dodging or anything, just you bringing your weapon up to deflect the attack.

Dragonmuncher
2007-10-31, 03:44 PM
I'm with Cor, you can do it as long as your move action makes the spell somehow invalid- move out of range, total cover, etc.

However, I'd say that your ready action would have to be "Sorcerer begins to cast," not "Sorcerer casts a ray spell." By the time you figure out it's a ray spell (either by a spellcraft check, or by it actually being casted), I'd say it's too late to move, the action's already done. MAYBE I'd allow the spellcraft check, but once the sorc's finished casting, you can't run anymore.

Kizara
2007-10-31, 06:56 PM
I'm with Cor, you can do it as long as your move action makes the spell somehow invalid- move out of range, total cover, etc.

However, I'd say that your ready action would have to be "Sorcerer begins to cast," not "Sorcerer casts a ray spell." By the time you figure out it's a ray spell (either by a spellcraft check, or by it actually being casted), I'd say it's too late to move, the action's already done. MAYBE I'd allow the spellcraft check, but once the sorc's finished casting, you can't run anymore.

As a minor point, I'd allow the Spellcraft check at a -5 penalty because you are doing it quickly and not seeing the entire spell.

Fax Celestis
2007-10-31, 06:58 PM
I'm with Cor, you can do it as long as your move action makes the spell somehow invalid- move out of range, total cover, etc.

Readied actions and AoOs happen immediately before the actions that trigger them, per RAW.

Mojo_Rat
2007-10-31, 07:38 PM
the thing is then that he doesn't waste his action since if you ready an action to hide if he targets you this happens before he shoots so he can choose another target or do something else...so nothing wasted...

but if you did move right in front of an archer as he prepares to shoot you, wouldn't he have to shoot while in melee thus taking a penalty to attack roll or fall back and take an AoO...of course he can tumble...blahh...

Might look at 4th edition...are there any items that allow you to move as an immediate action, or teleport? If not what would be the cost of creating one considering that moving as a swift action 1/day costs 900gp...?And it takes up an unusual body slot(ie its a pin...)

@Tormangundr(sp?) I only mentioned the boots of sidestepping as an example i know they only work on reflex saves.

In regards to the Quoted bit above The question comes down to when Declaired actions happen. If i declair 'im going to hit that wizard as he casts a spell' am I hitting him Just before he starts or Does he have some of the Magic words out of his mouth as he clutches for bat guano when I hit him.

If the view is that the stated action (using my attace xample) happens while the wizard has started clutching his spells then it seems to me the wizard is still locked in to trying to Cast his spell And i am forcing him to have to Make concentration checks to get it off.

So I dont see why the reverse of 'if the wizard starts to cast a spell I move out of the way' doesnt work providing Its An area effect spell like fireball or such. the Wizard is still locked into his declaired action since he did not know i was going to move.

As far Targeted stuff goes though i dont know if this concept works I mean Normally when i am in a game if there is cover i go for cover rather than wasting a delayed action on it.

Feralgeist
2007-10-31, 09:52 PM
even if your method worked, it wouldnt work against disintegrate, seeing as it is NOT a weaponlike spell, it's an automatic hit. the ray is flavor text.

a better method, that would work against disintegrate AND weaponlike spells, would be to ready an action to lift a tower shield in the way. they waste a spell, destroying your shield in the process, and then you open a can of whoopass

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-31, 10:49 PM
You could always ready an action to duck behind total cover before they attack. Spell, arrow, whatever ... they're not going to get to attack you.

Of course, the tradeoff is that you also don't get a turn now aside from just a move action, unless you happen to be a factotum and have arbitrarily granted yourself an extra standard action (which you then used to ready your action).

So come to that, a factotum really could sort of do it. Take a full round of normal actions, then ready an action to dive behind cover before a ranged attack or targetting spell aimed at you is launched. Ta da. You're golden.

That's still not using the action to move after the arrow (or ray or etc.) is fired, though. Rather, before.

kemmotar
2007-10-31, 10:58 PM
What book is factotum from?

GoC
2007-11-01, 09:57 AM
For the purpose of your debate a livery issue 66lb longbow clocks at about 66 feet per second. So in your theoretical 3 second action it can travel an easy 198ft of distance.

(You ask why I know this silently, and I answer; I had a guy in a freeform game try and jump out of the way of an arrow from a shooter 60ft away so I did my research. For interest, a heavy crossbow bolt flies at roughly the same speed but with greater force and a .22 rifle fires at 200f/ps)

So could a Demilich dodge an arrow?
A demilich's reaction time is less than 1/8 of a second (it only needs to take a mental action and has a massive insight bonus).
It flies at 30ft/s, can deccelarate/accelerate instantly (perfect maneuverability) and is 8 inches wide.
Looks like a demilich could dodge an ordinary arrow from 10ft away and even an epic archer couldn't hit it over 40ft.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-01, 10:56 AM
So could a Demilich dodge an arrow?
A demilich's reaction time is less than 1/8 of a second (it only needs to take a mental action and has a massive insight bonus).
It flies at 30ft/s, can deccelarate/accelerate instantly (perfect maneuverability) and is 8 inches wide.
Looks like a demilich could dodge an ordinary arrow from 10ft away and even an epic archer couldn't hit it over 40ft.
...except you can't move on someone else's turn.

cupkeyk
2007-11-01, 11:00 AM
a conjurer with abrupt jaunt can end the line of sight with an immediate action. I was at one point teleporting underground, taking the 2d6 damage from teleporting into a solid object instead of being hit by an effect that can kill me.. *shrug* behind an available wall if available would be smarter though.

GoC
2007-11-01, 11:37 AM
...except you can't move on someone else's turn.

I presume in situations like this basic common sense does override RAW?

elliott20
2007-11-01, 11:47 AM
I presume in situations like this basic common sense does override RAW?
The point is, if you have a rule that allows you to say, move out of the way for to a spell shot, why stop there? from now on, when people shoot an arrow at us, "I ready an action to move out of the way of the blow". somebody takes a swing at the character? "I ready an action to move out of the way".

The whole POINT of the rules is that a spell caster using a ray spell has to aim at you. Well, you can't just automatically, with a single movement, null that action. Otherwise, we could all just announce "move out of the way".

tainsouvra
2007-11-01, 12:03 PM
I presume in situations like this basic common sense does override RAW? What makes that common sense? It's equally common sense to say that, if the Demilich was supposed to be able to do that, they would have made the Demilich able to do that.

Artanis
2007-11-01, 12:32 PM
The situation is as follows...suppose a caster targets you with a disintigrate or scorching ray...how you know doesn't really matter..suppose you just know so you've readied an action so that when he launches the spell you move away from the place you were. Since its a ray it acts pretty much like an arrow...Therefore if you move, would it hit you?
Hmm...after being targetted is one thing, but moving out of the way after it's fired?

I'd say no, moving wouldn't work. If you readied an action to move after the spell is fired, there's no way in hell you're getting even 5 feet before that thing hits you, leaving you with only your Touch AC. (For that matter, if you readied an action to move before the spell is fired, the caster would just track and/or lead you, and you would be no better off.)

However, the fact that it involves a touch attack roll means that once the ray is fired, it won't track you if you go somewhere else in the meantime, so if you can be somewhere else fast enough, it would miss. Actually moving is out of the question, mind you. However, a Contingency with a proper trigger and companion spell would work. You can set it to teleport you to a different spot when the ray is on its way, or you might be able to use a Contingency-bound Timestop to let you walk out of the ray's path the way you initially envisioned (albeit much, MUCH faster). There may also be some other ways that I can't think of, but Contingency is the only one that comes to mind.


Edit:

I presume in situations like this basic common sense does override RAW?
Which is yet another reason it won't work. Remember, the OP is asking about after the ray is fired, and there's no way in hell an entire move action is going to fit within the amount of time it takes an energy blast to reach its target.

blacksabre
2007-11-01, 12:46 PM
Ok..Readying and action takes and Standard action. So the combat goes like this..

DM: Mr. Pin Cushion, The gladiator takes his last dieing swing at your head and falls to the ground. Boos come out of the crowd and the king looks none to happy you just took out his champion..Your standing roughly in the 100 ' arena ecircled with a 10 foot wooden wall. Two portculis door ways stand open at opposite ends of the field. You see the king motion up to a dark figure behind him. The figure comes out of the shadows and begins raising a crossbow, its black bolt dripping with evil blackness. What do you do?

Option 1: Stay there and take it scenerio

To Avoid the fired Bolt

If he has the Dodge feat, he gets a +1 AC against the bowman..This is what the dodge feat is for
Other Bonuses is to go PRONE. +4 to Ranged attacks and you don't loose Dex mods..totalling +5 to AC against the crossbowman

thats it for standing there and taking it..readying an action won't help

IMHO if you really don't want to be hit, why waste the round readying an action (which gets you nothing), when you can take that round to Run 4xSpeed behind cover before the bolt is fired.

If there is no cover available..then Prone is you best option for ranged.
Touch attacks is something else..Cover/Dodge/Dex is all you'll get
AoE spell...Run for cover, if the spell goes off and your in the AoE, doesn't matter how ready you are for it you get no bonuses on a save

kemmotar
2007-11-01, 01:42 PM
What about readying an action to activate boots of temporal acceleration(an item from magic items compendium granting a 2 round timestop 1/day). Its a swift action. Condition for readied action, a ray spell is fired at me, thus as soon as you see the ray you do the command and time stops, then you do whatever you like...

If you use contingency would the above description work as an activation trigger?Any other thoughts or activation triggers?Btw, what book is celerity from?

blacksabre
2007-11-01, 02:49 PM
What about readying an action to activate boots of temporal acceleration(an item from magic items compendium granting a 2 round timestop 1/day). Its a swift action. Condition for readied action, a ray spell is fired at me, thus as soon as you see the ray you do the command and time stops, then you do whatever you like...

If you use contingency would the above description work as an activation trigger?Any other thoughts or activation triggers?Btw, what book is celerity from?


Yes, you could use the items as a readied action to use its swift action effect just "before" "edited for Fax_Celestis sake" the bolt\spell action is done.

Triggers are tricky and under a DM's control what is possible.
I generally feel triggers must be based on the Casters perception.

For example, "when I'm below 20 HP, teleport me to X"..fully acceptable.

So is " When I see\hear a caster casting power word kill/disentegrate at me do x"

On the other hand, "When an assasin comes up behind me and tries to backstab me, teleport me to X" is not..The caster has no idea the assasin is there..hence he can not percieve the trigger.

I can imagine an over protective 20th level mage father "When my daughter is making out with a boy, teleport me to them!!"

Again some DM's will give alot of leeway though..but for for question, a contingency woulod work if the Caster was aware of the attack and the trgger was specific enough.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-01, 03:21 PM
Yes, you could use the items as a readied action to use its swift action effect just as the bolt\spell was cast.

Triggers are tricky and under a DM's control what is possible.
I generally feel triggers must be based on the Casters perception.

I've said this before, in this very thread: triggered effects happen immediately before the effect that triggered them, not during or after.

blacksabre
2007-11-01, 04:40 PM
I've said this before, in this very thread: triggered effects happen immediately before the effect that triggered them, not during or after.


I'm not debating when a trigger happens. DM determines what is possible as a trigger.

tainsouvra
2007-11-01, 04:54 PM
I'm not debating when a trigger happens. Actually, yeah, you did. You said "Yes, you could use the items as a readied action to use its swift action effect just as the bolt\spell was cast." while Fax_Celestis is pointing out that the readied action wouldn't happen just as the spell was cast, it would happen just before it was cast.

GoC
2007-11-02, 01:35 PM
Which is yet another reason it won't work. Remember, the OP is asking about after the ray is fired, and there's no way in hell an entire move action is going to fit within the amount of time it takes an energy blast to reach its target.

Look closely...
I was talking about arrows not spells.
Spells are presumably many times faster than arrows.

elliott20: Sure they can dodge the sword swing but there isn't a creature I know of capable of doing so. The demilich would be able to dodge an ordinary mortal (and has AC to prove it) but not the epic fighter who swings his sword 4 times as fast.


What makes that common sense? It's equally common sense to say that, if the Demilich was supposed to be able to do that, they would have made the Demilich able to do that.

They did when they gave it magical fly 180ft. (perfect) and diminutive size.

Gamebird
2007-11-02, 11:59 PM
Part of the problem is their inability to define what actions can be readied and which can not, under which sort of triggers. It says you can "specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it."

You could ready something as vague as "I attack anything that I think is threatening" or as precise as "I will make an offhand attack with my spiked gauntlet against any kobold in leather, wielding a dagger, who hits me." The latter would waste the readied action if a goblin attacked you instead, or if a kobold wearing a chain shirt or using a short sword or pick came after you. Or if they missed. The former is so vague that essentially you can take your readied action at any time, claiming merely that you felt threatened. You could also then use any type of "attack" at your disposal, including spells.

So part of the problem is whether someone can ready an action based on a trigger like "when he fires a ray attack at me" or "when the sword is about to hit me". If you can, then it would mean an opponent who spent all his time readying and moving out of the way could stymie an attacker for a long time. Or at least until one of the attacker's allies could come over and finish the idiot off.