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larnman2
2007-10-30, 09:31 PM
I feel nostalgic. What would be a good way to take down a dragon?

BardicDuelist
2007-10-30, 09:46 PM
Hit it really hard with a sword?

Really though, what kind of dragon? as different stragies can apply to each of the different flavors.

13_CBS
2007-10-30, 09:46 PM
Maximized Shivering Touch combined with something that extends your touch range.

1 shotting dragons FTW!

Of course, the hard part is getting close enough to the dragon to pull that off. Chances are that said dragon is as smart as your wizard, and far longer lived.

Temp
2007-10-30, 09:49 PM
Since you're not really restricting things, Shivering Touch averages 10.5 Dex damage, no save. Dragons have 10 Dex. See where this is going?




Edit: Ninja-ed.

13_CBS
2007-10-30, 09:50 PM
Since you're not really restricting things, Shivering Touch averages 10.5 Dex damage, no save. Dragons have 10 Dex. See where this is going?

And maximize it for a guarantee.

larnman2
2007-10-30, 09:50 PM
It's the one place where my 400 goblin methods does not work.

Basically saying, what's the most efficient/creative way you can think of?

TheOtherMC
2007-10-30, 09:52 PM
Ok, for years Ive been PRETENDING to understand the shivering touch spam to fit in with the "cool kids." What exactly are the implications of having 0 Dex and how would that stop a dragon exactly?

Temp
2007-10-30, 09:54 PM
Creative would be using your Skill Focus-Profession (Psychologist) to get the Dragon to fall into a horrific depression and to kill himself in shame and sorrow.

Anything with Shivering Touch would be the most efficient, especially with any sort of reach (Reach spell Metamagic, Archmage dip, Spectral Hand spell...)



Ok, for years Ive been PRETENDING to understand the shivering touch spam to fit in with the "cool kids." What exactly are the implications of having 0 Dex and how would that stop a dragon exactly?

0 Dex means the Dragon's paralyzed until the ability damage heals.

Enzario
2007-10-30, 09:54 PM
In mother country, Dragon 1-shots you!

Back on topic, yeah, just have the meat distract it for long enough for the wizard to land a save-or-suck, save-or-die, or save-or-lose, then have the rogue flank and beat the crap out of it (make sure to take down the AC a bit if you can, 46 can be hard to hit; also, take down its offensive power, a dragon's full attack is its most deadly weapon, and it can easily take a PC down in 1 turn... you know what? just take down everything you possibly can). Apply walking band-aid as needed (that's the cleric, if you don't know). Take treasure, rinse, repeat! What am I forgetting? Oh, yes...

?????

Profit!

TheOtherMC
2007-10-30, 09:58 PM
Creative would be using your Skill Focus-Profession (Psychologist) into getting the Dragon to fall into a horrific depression and to kill himself in shame and sorrow.



Ive done this in Cthulhu MANY MANY times with my knife-throwing psychologost!!! So much fun! With only 70 in psychoanalysis, my ST houseruled i could pull a Kavorkian on a 14%. I actually made it against a group of deep ones.

Thinker
2007-10-30, 10:10 PM
Ok, for years Ive been PRETENDING to understand the shivering touch spam to fit in with the "cool kids." What exactly are the implications of having 0 Dex and how would that stop a dragon exactly?

Your answer:

Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm). The character has temporarily lost 1 or more ability score points. Lost points return at a rate of 1 per day unless noted otherwise by the condition dealing the damage. A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious. Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores, which go away when the conditions causing them go away.

BardicDuelist
2007-10-30, 10:11 PM
Ironically, the way to one-shot a dragon using shivering touch does not work on the weakest type of dragon (white).

13_CBS
2007-10-30, 10:13 PM
The other, core-only solution, IIRC, is using a Time stop and as many delayed-blast-fireballs as possible during the time stop.

Gamebird
2007-10-30, 10:15 PM
I feel nostalgic. What would be a good way to take down a dragon?

Attack it with a group of PCs. Assuming the DM is playing within the rules, slaying the dragon will only cost you 25% of your party's resources and is unlikely to kill anyone. Even with dragons being considerably "overpowered" for their CR, they're still well within a party's ability to take down as the day's only encounter.

Green Bean
2007-10-30, 10:15 PM
Ironically, the way to one-shot a dragon using shivering touch does not work on the weakest type of dragon (white).

Hmm. Can you use Energy Substitution on Shivering Touch?

Dausuul
2007-10-30, 10:35 PM
Attack it with a group of PCs. Assuming the DM is playing within the rules, slaying the dragon will only cost you 25% of your party's resources and is unlikely to kill anyone. Even with dragons being considerably "overpowered" for their CR, they're still well within a party's ability to take down as the day's only encounter.

You have such touching faith in DMs giving out only level-appropriate encounters. There is nothing anywhere in the rules that says a DM is required to stick to that. And frankly, if I'm putting my PCs up against a dragon, I want it to be the fight of their lives. It's going to be at least 2 CRs above the party level, and quite possibly 3 or even 4, depending on how optimized the PCs are. Low enough that they can win... but it'll put them through a meatgrinder first.

(Moreover, if the PCs are seeking out the dragon on their own initiative rather than as part of the plot, all bets are off. If I've put a great red wyrm in the Mountain of Doom, and the PCs decide to try and tackle the thing at level 10, it's not going to suddenly shrink down to juvenile status just for them. I'll try to make sure they have a chance to realize what they're about to do, but if they go ahead anyway, so be it.)


The other, core-only solution, IIRC, is using a Time stop and as many delayed-blast-fireballs as possible during the time stop.

Or cast gate. A solar will polish off all but the most powerful dragons, and it'll give even them a run for their money.

On a more realistic level, and assuming you aren't allowed shivering touch-style cheese... do not close to melee. Let it close with you, then hit it and back off. (If it doesn't close with you, that's what you've got a bow for. You do have a bow, right?) You do not, repeat not, want to trade full attacks. If you have to eat an AoO to get out of the dragon's reach, do so; it's better than eating a full attack next round. Buff up with protection from energy before the fight; this will neutralize the first couple of breath weapons. If possible, tackle the dragon in a confined space so it can't fly away if you start to gain the advantage--but not too confined, lest it pin you down (see the first point).

For arcane casters, the dragon has a lousy touch AC, so throw a lot of debuff-o-rays at it, preferably ones that don't allow a save. Enervation is particularly good for softening up its saving throws, and ray of enfeeblement (ideally Quickened and/or Empowered) for taking the edge off its melee attacks. Be careful it doesn't manage to slip past the frantically dodging fighter and nail you in the meantime, however.

Once you've hit it with a few negative levels, bust out the save-or-lose magic. Slow is a great way to neutralize the dragon's melee superiority; suddenly the Full Attack of Doom becomes a single not-very-impressive bite attack. Glitterdust, of course, is what is colloquially referred to as "da bomb." Bestow curse can also be very useful--but for God's sake have a spectral hand deliver it for you, you don't want to be in melee with that thing, are you freaking insane?

Or you can just keep on spamming enervation as long as your 4th-level slots hold out, chewing up its attack bonus and saves. Don't count on zeroing out its Hit Dice, though. It's got a prodigious supply of those.

Some dragons like to buff themselves (they're casters too, after all, if not very powerful ones), so keep a dispel magic or two in reserve.

larnman2
2007-10-30, 10:45 PM
What is the item that puts up an impenetrable wall? put that a the front of the dragons cave, and literally use explosives to make the cave collapse in on itself. Wait for said amount of time for the dragon to have died of starvation, then clear rubble until you find treasure.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-30, 10:54 PM
Being high level normally helps particularly if employing a high level Timestop strategy. IMO if the PCs just want to kill a dragon in game to become dragonslayers they shouldn't just wing it. The PCs should prepare for the encounter. Divinations and knowledge checks so the PCs can find a suitable DM approved dragon type (It helps to have the DM on your side and supportive of your goals. Younger dragon ones are usually easier to kill than older dragons). Preparing appropiate tactics for the encounter if for some reason that initial one shot attack fails with a matching CR balanced dragon encounter.

If you really want to make the encounter memorable let one of the players role play the BBEG dragon defending his lair as a PC and throw him a carrot something special for his normal PC if he survives the encounter.

Chronos
2007-10-30, 11:02 PM
Ironically, the way to one-shot a dragon using shivering touch does not work on the weakest type of dragon (white).Or, for that matter, on the second-strongest (silver).


Once you've hit it with a few negative levels, bust out the save-or-lose magic. Slow is a great way to neutralize the dragon's melee superiority; suddenly the Full Attack of Doom becomes a single not-very-impressive bite attack. Glitterdust, of course, is what is colloquially referred to as "da bomb."Even with Slow and Ray of Enfeeblement, you've still got yourself a high-level sorcerer there with a lot of hit points, and as for Glitterdust, don't most dragons have blindsense? The problem with dragons isn't that they have an overwhelming offense available to them; it's that they have at least three completely independent overwhelming offenses available to them. Sure, a full attack from a dragon isn't too pleasant, but then, neither is a blast of breath from it, nor are any of the spells it'll be tossing around. You need some way to shut down all three to be safe.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-30, 11:24 PM
Attack it with a group of PCs. Assuming the DM is playing within the rules, slaying the dragon will only cost you 25% of your party's resources and is unlikely to kill anyone. Even with dragons being considerably "overpowered" for their CR, they're still well within a party's ability to take down as the day's only encounter.

That would be true, except that dragons aren't an appropriate challenge for their CR. I am fairly certain this was intentional. Demons have the same problem. For some reason, the designers felt that dragons and demons of a given CR should be more challenging than other monster types of the same CR.

Dausuul
2007-10-30, 11:28 PM
Even with Slow and Ray of Enfeeblement, you've still got yourself a high-level sorcerer there...

No you don't. A young adult red is CR 13 (meaning you should be at least 9th level to tackle it), but casts as a 5th-level sorc. If the dragon is reduced to relying on its spells to fight you, you've pretty much won--unless you're fighting a really big dragon, in which case you yourself are high enough level that you should already have Batmanned it into oblivion.


...and as for Glitterdust, don't most dragons have blindsense?

Blindsense, not blindsight. Any creature the dragon can't actually see still gets total concealment. 50% miss chance, Dex bonus denied, all that good stuff. Basically, the only thing blindsense does is ensure that the dragon knows which square to target with its attacks.


The problem with dragons isn't that they have an overwhelming offense available to them; it's that they have at least three completely independent overwhelming offenses available to them. Sure, a full attack from a dragon isn't too pleasant, but then, neither is a blast of breath from it, nor are any of the spells it'll be tossing around. You need some way to shut down all three to be safe.

The dragon's melee power far outstrips its magic. The breath weapon is nasty, but can only be used once every 1d4 rounds, and is easily negated with just one spell--that's why you buff with protection from energy before battle. Just keep spread out so it can't catch you all in a single blast, have the cleric renew the protection spell on anybody who's running low, and you should be okay.

It's the crazy claw/claw/bite/wing/wing/tail attack routine that will do you in. Once you have that dealt with, the rest is fairly manageable.

(Oh, one other thing--be sure to have some sort of counter if the dragon decides to grapple you. Grappling a dragon is no fun.)

Kaelik
2007-10-30, 11:33 PM
Hmm. Can you use Energy Substitution on Shivering Touch?

No you cannot. However, I'm not completely sure about how RAW it is, but I think it may be, to use Piercing Cold on Shivering Touch. It then only does Half Damage, so you'll want to Maximize and maybe Empower it.

13_CBS
2007-10-30, 11:33 PM
*snip*
...that's why you buff with protection from energy before battle. Just keep spread out so it can't catch you all in a single blast, have the cleric renew the protection spell on anybody who's running low, and you should be okay.


So what happens when the dragon tries to dispel your buffs? :smallconfused:

Dausuul
2007-10-30, 11:39 PM
So what happens when the dragon tries to dispel your buffs? :smallconfused:

Usually, it fails, because it's 4 to 6 caster levels lower than you. And if you're spread out enough that it can't hit you all with its breath, it won't be able to get more than two of you with dispel magic. Even if it gets lucky and knocks off one of the protections, the cleric should be able to re-buff fast enough to keep up with the dragon... and each round it spends dispelling is a round it doesn't spend breathing on you or tearing you into tiny little bits. Meanwhile, the fighters are filling it full of arrows and the wizard is spamming debuffination.

Dispel magic is a distinctly sub-optimal tactic for the dragon.

Cobra
2007-10-30, 11:51 PM
casts as a 5th-level sorc...

So it most likely fails, and wastes an action in either case. If it does get lucky and actually dispel a protection, the party caster just recasts it next round.

TheOOB
2007-10-30, 11:59 PM
Like most high level monsters, the quickest way to beat a dragon is the direct application of save or die or save or lose spells (or no save and lose a'la shivering touch). Dragons have far too many hp to make damage a good way to kill them.

AslanCross
2007-10-31, 01:12 AM
It would be so, so, sweet if the dragon's paralysis immunity actually makes it to immune to paralysis from having 0 DEX. In fact, I might just rule that in my campaign...

(It's effectively the same condition anyway, just different causes. At least that's what I'll tell my players.)

Aquaseafoam
2007-10-31, 01:24 AM
If the Dragon has any form of dex boosting magic item, causing Dex damage to it, especially with touch spells, will only result in your caster resting rather uncomfortably in the stomach of the dragon.

Chronos
2007-10-31, 01:25 AM
No you don't. A young adult red is CR 13 (meaning you should be at least 9th level to tackle it), but casts as a 5th-level sorc. If the dragon is reduced to relying on its spells to fight you, you've pretty much won--unless you're fighting a really big dragon, in which case you yourself are high enough level that you should already have Batmanned it into oblivion.Hm, you have a point... I was thinking of the possibility of the dragon Teleporting away as soon as the fight went against it, but it looks like any dragon capable of casting Teleport is at least CR 17, so you won't be meeting any of those for quite a while. It's easy to forget that the top several age categories are epic.

The_Snark
2007-10-31, 01:38 AM
Hm, you have a point... I was thinking of the possibility of the dragon Teleporting away as soon as the fight went against it, but it looks like any dragon capable of casting Teleport is at least CR 17, so you won't be meeting any of those for quite a while. It's easy to forget that the top several age categories are epic.

Of course, any dragon at all will be able to wheel about and get out of the range of all but long-range spells in a single round, so they don't really need to be teleporting. It's spells like Heal that you need to watch out for.

Actually, if your DM selects spells well, even low-level spells can mean death. Blood Wind, anyone?

TheOOB
2007-10-31, 01:38 AM
If the dragon has silent and still spell they can still cast spells while paralyzed, and this teleport away. Or they could have a ring of counterspelling agienst shivering touch.

sun_tzu
2007-10-31, 05:08 AM
Ive done this in Cthulhu MANY MANY times with my knife-throwing psychologost!!! So much fun! With only 70 in psychoanalysis, my ST houseruled i could pull a Kavorkian on a 14%. I actually made it against a group of deep ones.

Wait. Your character "Hannibal Lectured" Cthulhu Mythos creatures into committing suicide?
I bow to your awesomeness.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-31, 05:38 AM
I would be more impressed if it wasn't based on a die roll. It sounds more like he talked his GM into letting him make a skill check, as opposed to actually playing mind games.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-31, 06:09 AM
In any campaign that allows Shivering Touch, all dragons should immediately go down the feat chain to Reactive Counterspell. In fact, they should in any campaign anyway, because wizards are easily the greatest threat to their survival, and dragons prefer not to die.

Dragons also have access to various annoying save or X and especially battlefield control spells that aren't that dependent on being high level to be effective. Remember that first-level spell Obscuring Mist? Remember how dragons have blindsense? You do the math. Optionally, Obscuring Mist can become Fog Cloud instead. Fog Cloud can become Solid Fog. And the dragon can also cast Slow, and it's a good choice of spell to have handy anyway, since Reactive Counterspell says you won't be casting it successfully on the dragon.

Dragons can also use Greater Invisibility on themselves. They can drop Evard's Black Tentacles under the cover of Obscuring Mist, Fog Cloud or Solid Fog, then casually wade through the tentacles and lay waste to anyone who doesn't have a Freedom of Movement effect in place.

Bear in mind that a lot of really strong spells are in range for dragons, as are options to shut down some of the worst wizardly excesses. Celerity? I'll see your Celerity with my Celerity followed by one of the fog spells. You can cast something now, but good luck with targetting. Scry and die? Detect Scrying, Anticipate Teleport, and see above battlefield control spells.

I'm sure someone will jump right in with ways that could all be overcome -- I'm certainly not the best at wizardly tactics. But I think dragons could be played a lot more intelligently to counter some of those tactics than maybe they often are, or are expected to be.

Setra
2007-10-31, 06:12 AM
To defeat a dragon.. you must know how we think.

Try leaving a scantily clad female alone, preferably a virgin princess.. Now set a trap...

Make sure to tell me the trap so I can pick up my princess later without much trouble.

mostlyharmful
2007-10-31, 06:41 AM
In any campaign that allows Shivering Touch, all dragons should immediately go down the feat chain to Reactive Counterspell. In fact, they should in any campaign anyway, because wizards are easily the greatest threat to their survival, and dragons prefer not to die.

Dragons also have access to various annoying save or X and especially battlefield control spells that aren't that dependent on being high level to be effective. Remember that first-level spell Obscuring Mist? Remember how dragons have blindsense? You do the math. Optionally, Obscuring Mist can become Fog Cloud instead. Fog Cloud can become Solid Fog. And the dragon can also cast Slow, and it's a good choice of spell to have handy anyway, since Reactive Counterspell says you won't be casting it successfully on the dragon.

Dragons can also use Greater Invisibility on themselves. They can drop Evard's Black Tentacles under the cover of Obscuring Mist, Fog Cloud or Solid Fog, then casually wade through the tentacles and lay waste to anyone who doesn't have a Freedom of Movement effect in place.

Bear in mind that a lot of really strong spells are in range for dragons, as are options to shut down some of the worst wizardly excesses. Celerity? I'll see your Celerity with my Celerity followed by one of the fog spells. You can cast something now, but good luck with targetting. Scry and die? Detect Scrying, Anticipate Teleport, and see above battlefield control spells.

I'm sure someone will jump right in with ways that could all be overcome -- I'm certainly not the best at wizardly tactics. But I think dragons could be played a lot more intelligently to counter some of those tactics than maybe they often are, or are expected to be.

All absolutely true but to cast all this, minus the reactive, it takes actions that the Dragon is frankly better off using to pound things with it's horrendous combat routine. the key to their maximization isn't that they can cast spells, it's that they can use items, even caster only, and they have THREE TIMES THE APPROPRIATE STUFFF. Which means any amount of rings of energy resistance, invisibility, protection, counterspelling (all in the one damn ring!!!), they can use wands and staves and scrolls and with their Int and skills they'd know exactly when you're going to bust the door in. the Draconomicon has some funky lair wards and immobile magic items for jazzing up the places they'd spend the most time in and any CR appropriate Dragon will have enough useful gizmos to cover a whole lot of it's weaknesses. Imagine a big dragon hovering over your party wearing a ring of invis, using a helm of telepathy to know everything about you long before it ever shows itself:smalleek:

Keld Denar
2007-10-31, 06:42 AM
I don't remember the name, but there is a feat in one of the dragon books (probably Draconomicon) that allows a dragon to apply its nat armor bonus to its touch AC. Shivering Touch that, Mr Wizard. Also, the various metabreath feats are absolutely NASTY. Entangling breath first and foremost, if you don't have freedom of movement, pretty much hoses the entire party if they aren't well positioned. The Blinding Breath spell(SC?) is a swift spell that gives your breath weapon a chance to blind if the reflex save is failed. There are lots of really nasty things that a dragon can do with access to the same number of books as the PCs.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-31, 07:14 AM
All absolutely true but to cast all this, minus the reactive, it takes actions that the Dragon is frankly better off using to pound things with it's horrendous combat routine.

Not really, because all they need to do is lay down the battlefield control and then go to town with their horrendous combat routines. There's no reason not to do this in any serious fight, because it won't hamper those combat routines (only delay them a few rounds), and it will wreck havoc on any insufficiently prepared group of would-be dragonslayers. Even wizards can end up having trouble when their own tricks get thrown back in their faces, especially when the "I'll just use Shivering Touch" plan goes down the drain because the dragon just dropped fog, and the wizard can't get LOS to his target.

A "target" that can still pinpoint that wizard with blindsense and is now zeroing in on him to deliver a horrendous combat routine.

Edit: You're right about the magical items, though, and that's another angle to continue this line of thinking. Especially if the dragon also decides to take item creation feats. ("Guess what? Not only am I wealthier than you, but I'm also wealthier than you twice over because I can create my own magical items for only half of their normal cost.")

TheOtherMC
2007-10-31, 07:35 AM
I would be more impressed if it wasn't based on a die roll. It sounds more like he talked his GM into letting him make a skill check, as opposed to actually playing mind games.

Actually we roleplayed out the whole thing. The 14% was to see if I could even try. About 10 minutes later and my fifth or sixth time asking "It was your father? Wasnt it?" He just broke down and conceded to my ability to crush people's spirirts. :smallbiggrin:


Edit: Sun Tzu, thank you. I am now sigging that :P

Dausuul
2007-10-31, 07:54 AM
The ideal spell for a dragon, if it's powerful enough to cast it, is anti-magic field--also known as, "Batman this, punk." Combine with Improved Grapple for extra pain.

The_Snark
2007-10-31, 11:56 AM
Antimagic field is a nasty, nasty spell.

Unpleasant low-level spells can be Wraithstrike, Glittering Scales and Blood Wind. Wraithstrike ensures that any character foolish enough to end his turn within full attack range dies. Glittering Scales converts the dragon's natural armor bonus to a deflection bonus, meaning the wizard can't hit with Shivering Touch (or any other ray spell). Blood Wind is the ideal wizard-counter. Instead of messing around with counterspells and such, just full attack the wizard at range. He won't last long.

But yes, Fog Cloud and the like can be very useful, although I'd avoid Solid Fog unless the dragon also has Freedom of Movement.

Kaelik
2007-10-31, 12:18 PM
The problem with a Dragon trying to use spells is that they are always several levels lower then the casters in the party. Evard's Black Tentacles is a rare spell that is entirely dependent on your caster level. As such it is a terrible choice for a Dragon since a Fighter facing a Dragon 2 CR higher then his ECL will still beat the Tentacles 9 times out of ten.

As for Solid Fog/Fog Cloud/Dispel Magic, the Dragon has the same problem as any BBEG but many times more so. He has fewer actions then his opponents, and a lower caster level, bad combo.

And the Celerity thing really only comes into play with Foresight and Time stop. Before that it can be a useful maneuver just to get that extra standard action when you need it, but Lesser Celerity can be more useful for a Dragon (to get the Full Attack) and none of the Celerities are as useful to a Dragon as the Bloodwind spell.

W=Wizard
C=Cleric
R=Rogue
F=Fighter

Round 1 D:Dragon casts Solid Fog
Round 1 C:Dispels Solid Fog
Round 1 W:Does Batman thing
Round 1 R:Shoots Arrow
Round 1 F:Shoots Arrow
Round 2 D: Realizes he needs to be focusing on attacking, does so.

The problem is that between the Cleric and Wizard and the Dragons significantly lower caster level, every spell he casts can be dispelled very quickly leaving plenty of actions for the rest of the party to hurt him.

BBEGs need a high enough caster level to not be dispelled before Battlefield control becomes an option, Dragons don't have that.

Lokey
2007-10-31, 12:28 PM
The ideal spell for a dragon, if it's powerful enough to cast it, is anti-magic field--also known as, "Batman this, punk." Combine with Improved Grapple for extra pain.
Batman isn't entirely helpless in an anti-magic field, it does sting though.

Does AMF suppress most dragon characteristics other than being a melee beast (i.e. flight, fear, breath, and the several important SLAs they have by type)? AMF hurts the rest of the party as much or more too, items count for a lot.

Kaelik
2007-10-31, 12:31 PM
Batman isn't entirely helpless in an anti-magic field, it does sting though.

Does AMF suppress most dragon characteristics other than being a melee beast (i.e. flight, fear, breath, and the several important SLAs they have by type)? AMF hurts the rest of the party as much or more too, items count for a lot.

It suppresses everything but their melee beastitude and flying. But a Dragon can't cast AMF until a ridiculous level, but if it could, all it would need to do is Fly 20ft off the ground and full attack all the poor people who can't do anything but shoot it with arrows (and spontaneous conjured orbs of acid.)

Dausuul
2007-10-31, 12:58 PM
It suppresses everything but their melee beastitude and flying. But a Dragon can't cast AMF until a ridiculous level, but if it could, all it would need to do is Fly 20ft off the ground and full attack all the poor people who can't do anything but shoot it with arrows (and spontaneous conjured orbs of acid.)

Oh, yes, it's not a common tactic--the dragons that can cast AMF are in the CR 21+ range. But it's a good way to take an overconfident high-level caster down a peg.

(Yes, I know that a well-prepared Batman has ways to counter even this. That's why I said "overconfident.")

Starbuck_II
2007-10-31, 01:02 PM
Edit: You're right about the magical items, though, and that's another angle to continue this line of thinking. Especially if the dragon also decides to take item creation feats. ("Guess what? Not only am I wealthier than you, but I'm also wealthier than you twice over because I can create my own magical items for only half of their normal cost.")

How, can dragons use enough Exp to lose a level? No, I didn't think so. So Dragon can't craft since he can't get exp and can't lose a level to allow crafting.

The Glyphstone
2007-10-31, 01:36 PM
How, can dragons use enough Exp to lose a level? No, I didn't think so. So Dragon can't craft since he can't get exp and can't lose a level to allow crafting.

Dragons can gain XP - however much the DM feels like giving them, since they're NPCs. They don't gain XP, but are arbitrarily awarded it...though this would increase their effective CR if they've got above the normal items value(which is a lot, Dragons already have triple standard treasure). Dragon PC's are another story, but - that's another story.

mostlyharmful
2007-10-31, 01:41 PM
How, can dragons use enough Exp to lose a level? No, I didn't think so. So Dragon can't craft since he can't get exp and can't lose a level to allow crafting.

Either they need XP to craft in which case they're being treated as a PC level being and they can earn XP and PC levels, or they're treated as an NPC with caster levels in which case the crafting costs and mechanics don't apply.:smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2007-10-31, 02:17 PM
Glittering Scales converts the dragon's natural armor bonus to a deflection bonus, meaning the wizard can't hit with Shivering Touch (or any other ray spell).

Glittering Scales...that's what I was looking for. Its a spell, not a feat. My memory isn't what it used to be, now that I'm a ripe old 23 years of age. But yea, that spell pretty much negates a dragons one major weakness. Now your little 1/2 BAB wizard is NEVER gonna be able to hit his touch AC, sans True Strike.

How would you beat that dragon now? (Other than dispelling GS)

Alex12
2007-10-31, 02:33 PM
Ego Whip. Rinse and repeat. Alternately, reduce Will saves, then Psychic Crush.

Chronos
2007-10-31, 02:52 PM
It suppresses everything but their melee beastitude and flying.And Frightful Presence. A 100-ton monster with claws out to here and a mouth full of entirely more teeth than is healthy and ohmygod the eyes! Eyes like molten metal! doesn't need magic to be scary. Though any party worthy of trying to take on a dragon probably shouldn't need to worry about the fear (it does put a kibosh on trying to use an army of low-levels on it, though).


Ego Whip. Rinse and repeat. Alternately, reduce Will saves, then Psychic Crush.Those are psi, right? I think the question was geared more towards wizards.

Dausuul
2007-10-31, 02:54 PM
Glittering Scales...that's what I was looking for. Its a spell, not a feat. My memory isn't what it used to be, now that I'm a ripe old 23 years of age. But yea, that spell pretty much negates a dragons one major weakness. Now your little 1/2 BAB wizard is NEVER gonna be able to hit his touch AC, sans True Strike.

How would you beat that dragon now? (Other than dispelling GS)

That's kind of like asking, "How would you get nutrition, other than eating food?" Dispelling is the obvious counter-tactic.

Alex12
2007-10-31, 02:58 PM
Those are psi, right? I think the question was geared more towards wizards.
Yeah, psionics, and if you're using psionics, you have access to those powers since they're in XPH.
And the question wasn't "how can wizards kill a dragon?" just how to do it. Just because other people are using wizards doesn't mean that's the only way by any means.

Keld Denar
2007-10-31, 03:05 PM
Once you start throwing Psionics in to the blender, you'd have to go transparent and give the dragon Power Resistance equal to its Spell Resistance. Otherwise the world would be run by rampant psions and no one could do anything about it. (Why is this not so?)

So, now big bad dragon has PR approriate for a creature 2 CR greater than you normally see. Granted, I don't know that much about psionics, but is there much there that really easily gets around a high PR that won't fail a goodly portion of the time? (I'm lookin for near 100% cases, similar to how Shivering Touch + low touch AC USUALLY stomps a dragon.)

merrja666
2007-10-31, 03:10 PM
Hmm..... dragon....

Transmute Rock to Mud (Lots of 10' cubes below it.) Personally, the only dragon(s) I have ever fought was when I was a level 17 Sorcerer and was being attacked by 3 Force Dragons on a Githyanki ship whilst travelling through the Void, but I would think that Dragons have good Fort + Will, but low Ref.

If you use the Twin Spell feat, you can cast Transmute Rock to Mud and Transmute Mud to Rock, effectively killing it in under 3 seconds.

The_Snark
2007-10-31, 03:12 PM
Ego Whip. Rinse and repeat. Alternately, reduce Will saves, then Psychic Crush.

Bad plan. Dragons have high Will saves and plenty of Charisma. It will kill you much faster than you can ego-whip it into unconsciousness.

SR and PR are the same thing, by the way, under the default rules.

kemmotar
2007-10-31, 03:19 PM
Well...seeing how dragons are magnificent creatures, that have lived through the ages with power immeasurable and wisdom and intelligence far surpassing their power, their main arsenal is knowing when to use what. Thus, what you can do is:

a)get it angry so it just attacks blindly(wear dragon full plate,have dragon grafts and other things that get you a dragon's eternal hate)
b)lead it somewhere where you actually have the advantage. For example somewhere where it can't spread its wings or hit you with its tail. Also if you know that you're going against a dragon then there are lots of spells and weapons you can use. First of all, bane! Then there are spells like antimagic ray,hide from dragons and other spells to grant you a tactical advantage even before the fight starts. Thus if you use hide from dragons and one brave(and yet so foolish) party member lures it to your trap(assuming everybody is hiding is such a way that they can't be seen at all(not requiring a hide check since dragons have horrific spot checks) you have a trap set. Surround and use any tactic you've decided.

Tor the Fallen
2007-10-31, 04:30 PM
I'm fond of having my dragons using disguises to prevent anyone from divining their weaknesses.

Aquaseafoam
2007-10-31, 05:30 PM
Lussmanj,

There is the whole problem of the Gem Dragons smacking down Psions.

Chronos
2007-10-31, 05:42 PM
(assuming everybody is hiding is such a way that they can't be seen at all(not requiring a hide check since dragons have horrific spot checks)From the SRD:
Skills

All dragons have skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) × (Hit Dice + 3). Most dragons purchase the following skills at the maximum ranks possible: Listen, Search, and Spot.Maximum ranks would be 3+HD, and dragons have nearly 2 HD per CR. So the reason a Hide check is not required is not because the dragon can't see you, but because the dragon can't fail to see you.

And Bane is nice to have, sure, but it's an extra +2 enhancement, and +2d6 more damage (applied after any multipliers). It's not a matter of "A Dragonbane weapon will let you kill dragons", it's a matter of "If you can kill dragons, a Dragonbane weapon will make it slightly easier". The appropriate Arrows of Slaying would be considerably more useful, but you still need to get through some pretty thick natural armor, and the dragon still gets a save, against a rather costly single-use item.

SilverClawShift
2007-10-31, 06:08 PM
Wait for said amount of time for the dragon to have died of starvation, then clear rubble until you find treasure.

Dragons can metabolise rocks.

kemmotar
2007-10-31, 06:27 PM
From the SRD:Maximum ranks would be 3+HD, and dragons have nearly 2 HD per CR. So the reason a Hide check is not required is not because the dragon can't see you, but because the dragon can't fail to see you.

And Bane is nice to have, sure, but it's an extra +2 enhancement, and +2d6 more damage (applied after any multipliers). It's not a matter of "A Dragonbane weapon will let you kill dragons", it's a matter of "If you can kill dragons, a Dragonbane weapon will make it slightly easier". The appropriate Arrows of Slaying would be considerably more useful, but you still need to get through some pretty thick natural armor, and the dragon still gets a save, against a rather costly single-use item.

that's what i meant with horrific...maybe it wasn't the right word to use:smalltongue: In any case, dragons will see through pretty much any hide...what i meant was to hide somewhere where the dragon can't see you but somewhere where he might think he should see you. If you bypass tremorsense with hide from dragons(or whatever the spell was that allowed you to not be "seen" by a dragon's tremorsense) then hiding behind the curve in a cave where he can't see you with a spot, so essentially you're not hiding as per the skill, but being out of sight completely, might make the dragon make a mistake, then you go up behind him and get a surprise round.

A dragon is more than anything an arrogant and confident creature. He is careful but he does have confidence in his abilities and therefore you can use that against him. If he passes by a cave but his tremorsense tells him there's nothing there he will ignore it. That way you can get the drop on the dragon and get a serious advantage before it gets into battle. If its pursuing something it won't have time to cast brilliant scales so one shoting it from behind when it can't see you should be considerably easier since going into its lair is a big mistake since, as it was mentioned before, they will have set something up to prevent unnecessary fights and to wear down anything that can bypass them.

martyboy74
2007-10-31, 07:03 PM
Another thought is that, if you track down the dragon, you can combine Time Stop and phantom steed to race through most of the dungeon while in the Time Stop and catch the dragon unprepared. Celerity lets you get a full round of actions in; if you can one-shot it while it's unprepared, then you're golden.

Starbuck_II
2007-10-31, 07:14 PM
Once you start throwing Psionics in to the blender, you'd have to go transparent and give the dragon Power Resistance equal to its Spell Resistance. Otherwise the world would be run by rampant psions and no one could do anything about it. (Why is this not so?)

So, now big bad dragon has PR approriate for a creature 2 CR greater than you normally see. Granted, I don't know that much about psionics, but is there much there that really easily gets around a high PR that won't fail a goodly portion of the time? (I'm lookin for near 100% cases, similar to how Shivering Touch + low touch AC USUALLY stomps a dragon.)

Um, Dragons SR sucks for their CR on average (you need a 10 on average if CR 4 higher than level).

AslanCross
2007-10-31, 07:21 PM
Dragons can metabolise rocks.

They can metabolize anything, for that matter.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-31, 07:27 PM
In any case, dragons will see through pretty much any hide...what i meant was to hide somewhere where the dragon can't see you but somewhere where he might think he should see you. If you bypass tremorsense with hide from dragons(or whatever the spell was that allowed you to not be "seen" by a dragon's tremorsense) then hiding behind the curve in a cave where he can't see you with a spot, so essentially you're not hiding as per the skill, but being out of sight completely, might make the dragon make a mistake, then you go up behind him and get a surprise round.


Using cover like you're describing is just one of the only ways you can hide at all unless you have Hide in Plain Sight (which really isn't a wizard thing). It doesn't mean the dragon can't still spot you.

Besides, the dragon has Listen, too. It can hear your breathing. It can hear the little tiny scuffing sound you just made with your boot. It can hear your clothing brushing against your body and your spell component pouch slapping against your thigh. Hell, it might even manage to hear the flea on your shoulder sneeze.

If you want to play "hide from the dragon," you need Darkstalker, maxed Hide/Move Silently, preferably lots of skill-boosting gear for those two skills, and also preferably Hide in Plain Sight. Now you're a rogue, not a wizard ... so, no.

Kaelik
2007-10-31, 07:29 PM
that's what i meant with horrific...maybe it wasn't the right word to use:smalltongue: In any case, dragons will see through pretty much any hide...what i meant was to hide somewhere where the dragon can't see you but somewhere where he might think he should see you. If you bypass tremorsense with hide from dragons(or whatever the spell was that allowed you to not be "seen" by a dragon's tremorsense)

Dragons don't have Tremorsense. They have Blindsense. Entirely different, and Blindsense is blocked by line of effect, so if he passes a cave with a bend in it he won't assume it is empty.


Using cover like you're describing is just one of the only ways you can hide at all unless you have Hide in Plain Sight (which really isn't a wizard thing). It doesn't mean the dragon can't still spot you.

Actually what he is describing is a Total Cover. In which case you don't need to make a Hide check at all. Because there is a wall in between you and the Dragon's eyes.

And if you are "luring him into a trap" as stated earlier by the poster, then the dragon and the luring guy are both making lots of noise and the hiding Wizard is being very quite.

Not that it matters, because what actually happens is the Cleric dispels Glittering Scales and the Wizard Shivering Touches.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-31, 07:41 PM
Actually what he is describing is a Total Cover. In which case you don't need to make a Hide check at all. Because there is a wall in between you and the Dragon's eyes.

Well, yes, but Listen checks still apply, as do Spot checks the moment he actually tries to, you know, do anything besides cower behind a wall.


And if you are "luring him into a trap" as stated earlier by the poster, then the dragon and the luring guy are both making lots of noise and the hiding Wizard is being very quite.

Yesh, because they're good at that. :smalltongue:


Not that it matters, because what actually happens is the Cleric dispels Glittering Scales and the Wizard Shivering Touches.

Okay, sure, a party of casters versus a dragon? The casters win, then. But it's not quite the same as the old, "I'll just go solo a dragon" wizard claim that's popular around here.

Of course, reactive counterspelling could still help here. And what's to stop the dragon from using an Eversmoking Bottle so there's no spell effect to dispel?

I won't argue that a group of casters can't do it, though. That's too many turns of magical cheese to counter.

slexlollar89
2007-10-31, 07:58 PM
I managed to slay an adult red dragon at level 5 through the use of the craft skil, and a hat of disgiuse.

1. I used the hat to disgiuse myself as a dragon shaman worshiping the red dragon, and preceded to ask my "leige" about the town below, starting a rumor about an armored cart with a lot of money. The dragon, having no reason not to beleive my lie, and even wanting to believe there was a source of easily atainable cions, rushed into the town polymorphed.

2. In another disgiuse, I was in a tavern when the dragon came in, and having previously spread rumors of a large caravan full of gold from the south (albeit heavily armored and guarded), caught the drgon's ears. I told him and some others that cared about the way I'd steal the money... by levitating the carriages away (thus providing me with ample time to disarm the locks and move the gold, and avioding the guards).

3. The dragon leaves, returns to his normal form, and swoops upon the caravan, grabbing the cars in his claws and taking them away to his lair. the first thing it would naturally do is roll in the il gotten gains, and wallow in success (literally).

4. The dragon, without realizing it, dies fom aproxamately one thousand doses of low DC contact poison that reduces Dex, effectively stunning the dragon, allowing me to coup de grace it at my leisure.

The whole scheme was devised by myself, the caravan was placed by me, the gold (which was actually copper that appeared as gold due to a relatively simple and realistic alchemical/chemical reaction) was coated in thousands of doses of easilly manufactured contact poison wich did such minor damage, but effected such a large creature simoultaneously, that the dragon eventually had to succumb, and would not notice such a mundane and weak effect on it untill far to late. The upshot was, I got a hoard, and my armored car back, and the dragon also happened to kill off some of the mercenaries that went after the "gold" too. The downside was that this could have gone horribly wrong, and almost did (I had to come in and use a wand to finish off the dex damage... I was just in time) and took about three months to pull off in game. When I joined the rest of the party, they wanted to know why I had such great gear and such an awesome dragonscale cloak... I just said that craft (alchemy) was the best skill in the game :smallsmile:

goken04
2007-10-31, 08:10 PM
I once killed a dragon by using that lovely full attack against him. I was just high-enough level of IotSFV to cast the veil that blocks breath weapons (I'm AFB), and when he full-attacked me (and my party, which was pulled tightly around me), he faced many fortitude saves v. death effect.

As an aside, we had just plane-shifted to the astral plane to chase down some illithids and, upon our arrival in the astral plane, the red dragon swooped in and torched those boogers, so we were totally unprepared for the red dragon. But the Free Quickened Spell/round was a very nice benefit for my Batman that helped to make up for that.

Dausuul
2007-10-31, 08:24 PM
Not that it matters, because what actually happens is the Cleric dispels Glittering Scales and the Wizard Shivering Touches.

And the dragon says, "Wait, you cast what on me?"
And the wizard says, "Shivering touch."
And the dragon says, "You're new to this gaming group, ain'tcha?"
And the wizard says, "Uh, aren't we supposed to stay in character?"
And the dragon says, "We don't allow that spell 'round these parts, pardner. And I reckon it's just about breakfast time. Hope y'all like toast."
And the wizard says, "Aw, crap."

Seriously, any plan that revolves around the DM allowing shivering touch into the game is... at that point, might as well throw in a candle of invocation and polymorph too.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-31, 08:35 PM
And the dragon says, "Wait, you cast what on me?"
And the wizard says, "Shivering touch."
And the dragon says, "You're new to this gaming group, ain'tcha?"
And the wizard says, "Uh, aren't we supposed to stay in character?"
And the dragon says, "We don't allow that spell 'round these parts, pardner. Hope y'all like toast."
And the wizard says, "Aw, crap."

Seriously, any plan that revolves around the DM allowing shivering touch into the game is... at that point, might as well throw in a candle of invocation and polymorph too.

Honestly, I agree.

It seems every discussion here assumes absolutely anything possible via rules as written is absolutely always allowed. Which is fine, as far as it goes ... but in that case, the only character worth discussing is a kobold divine minion 1/wizard 1/master of many forms 3.

"I'll cast --"

"I'll just will that all forms of attack, magical or otherwise, direct or indirect, are completely ineffective against me."

Chronos
2007-10-31, 09:19 PM
the gold (which was actually copper that appeared as gold due to a relatively simple and realistic alchemical/chemical reaction)Wouldn't that still allow a Spot check to tell the difference? A very high DC Spot check, maybe, but the dragon can make a very high DC Spot check. For that matter, that same Spot check should also have seen through a magical disguise, unless maybe you had the skill ranks to back it up, too.

Still, that's a good plan, in general. Awfully pricey to set up (even the raw materials cost adds up, when you're making so many doses), but for a dragon, it's worth it.

AslanCross
2007-10-31, 09:48 PM
I'd think dragons who have been around long enough have seen enough "worshippers" to make them paranoid when it comes to fawning praise. It might come to a point that the only praise they appreciate is praise they demand.

MCerberus
2007-10-31, 09:51 PM
Maybe with a high enough Perform(Joke) check you can slay a Copper Dragon a la Roger Rabbit.

TheOtherMC
2007-10-31, 09:52 PM
Wouldn't that still allow a Spot check to tell the difference? A very high DC Spot check, maybe, but the dragon can make a very high DC Spot check. For that matter, that same Spot check should also have seen through a magical disguise, unless maybe you had the skill ranks to back it up, too.

Still, that's a good plan, in general. Awfully pricey to set up (even the raw materials cost adds up, when you're making so many doses), but for a dragon, it's worth it.

Wait...on that note, don't red dragons have like, Appraise bonuses and such out the ass? Innately or something? And it couldnt tell the difference between copper and gold?

BizzaroStormy
2007-10-31, 10:30 PM
Duct-tape a bard with -6 Cha to its head.

kemmotar
2007-10-31, 10:49 PM
Find THE JOKE...have different craftsmen inscribe it on a golden tablet, wrap it in cloth and offer it to the dragon...dragon dead, treasure yours!Make sure you don't read it though...its deadly afterall:smallwink:

For those not well versed with monty python sketches:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IysnS5wO60g

Btw...if anyone know german and translates the joke plz post or PM me:smallbiggrin:

BizzaroStormy
2007-10-31, 11:18 PM
Oh god yes!! The joke!!!

merrja666
2007-11-01, 04:34 AM
Polymorph your Rogue into a Nine-Headed Hydra, which allows each head to do 10d6 Sneak Attack Damage. An Average Damage of 315. Woot.

Or change the stone walls into a Greater Stone Golem, and this is broken, as it is a Greater Stone Golem Permantly! (I had lots of fun with this when storming an enemy castle...I Polymorphed the floor...)

Or... Transmute Rock to Lava on the floor, then polymorph the lava into an Elemental Monolith of Fire. Fun...

Saph
2007-11-01, 09:31 AM
Seriously, any plan that revolves around the DM allowing shivering touch into the game is... at that point, might as well throw in a candle of invocation and polymorph too.

Actually, the DM doesn't even need to step outside the rules to beat the shivering touch trick.

From the SRD: Ability Damaged (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged)

The character has temporarily lost 1 or more ability score points. Lost points return at a rate of 1 per day unless noted otherwise by the condition dealing the damage. A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious. Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores, which go away when the conditions causing them go away.

From the SRD: Dragon, True (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm)

Immunities (Ex): All dragons have immunity to sleep and paralysis.

So you knock the dragon's Dex to 0 . . . and it has no effect.

The rules are kind of ambiguous here, but somehow, if you're using something as abusive as shivering touch, I doubt the DM is likely to interpret in your favour.

- Saph

Ninja Chocobo
2007-11-01, 09:41 AM
Or change the stone walls into a Greater Stone Golem, and this is broken, as it is a Greater Stone Golem Permantly! (I had lots of fun with this when storming an enemy castle...I Polymorphed the floor...)

Can't do that.
PaO only goes up to 15 HD, and can't do constructs.

SoD
2007-11-01, 09:48 AM
I feel nostalgic. What would be a good way to take down a dragon?

Quite simple, take exotic weapon profiency (dragon), two weapon fighting, charge in weilding two dragons. That gives you a 3 vs. 1!

Or take ranks in the dragonthing PrC become a half dragon, go around all the kobold tribes, get them to pledge their support, continue until you have a few dozen armies of them, you know, enough to fill a few metorpoli...and tell them that this other dragon is your sworn enemy, that it kills kobolds, etc. And make them charge it. Then...sit back and watch.

Keld Denar
2007-11-01, 10:09 AM
Quite simple, take exotic weapon profiency (dragon), two weapon fighting, charge in weilding two dragons. That gives you a 3 vs. 1!

You forgot to take Oversized Two Weapon Fighting. You are gonna need it, especially if your dragons are gonna be any challenge for the dragon you are fighting....

Hmmm, what would be the price of a +1 Brilliant Energy Vorpal Gold Dragon in main hand, and a +1 Keen Wounding Brass Dragon of Speed for your offhand? And do Dragons have a range incriment if you want to throw them(maybe with the Throw Anything feat?)

SoD
2007-11-01, 10:15 AM
Not sure if they'd go there, but if you took really throw anything as well...mind you, if you play as a thri-keen, and include a potion of enlarge person and a potion of bulls strength, and weild another two magical dragons, or maybe one dragon and a tarrasque...then you'd beat it!

Mind you, the easiest way to defeat a dragon...go and attack a wyrmling.

slexlollar89
2007-11-01, 10:25 AM
The dragon ngot an apraise check versus my craft checks, and I took twenty for the gold.

Dausuul
2007-11-01, 10:30 AM
Immunities (Ex): All dragons have immunity to sleep and paralysis.

So you knock the dragon's Dex to 0 . . . and it has no effect.

Heh. That's beautiful. I'll have to remember that.

SoD
2007-11-01, 10:39 AM
Well, apart from the -5 penalty to AC...

Artanis
2007-11-01, 10:54 AM
Wait...on that note, don't red dragons have like, Appraise bonuses and such out the ass? Innately or something? And it couldnt tell the difference between copper and gold?
Normal copper, sure. But I remember a lab in HS Chemistry that involved exactly what was described - turning pennies into shiny golden coins - through some chemical reaction or another. So it'd be closer to the difference between gold and fool's gold.

Even if the dragon still noticed the difference, the coins are shiny and golden. Dragons are both smart and arrogant, so the odds are good that he'd figure he'd be able to sucker somebody into thinking they're real long enough to buy stuff with them. This is especially true given that at least one person (in charge of the caravan) had been duped that way already.

SoD
2007-11-01, 10:57 AM
Actually, there's a thought...would a gold dragon be worth more than a copper dragon? Can you make an appraise check on a dragon?

MCerberus
2007-11-01, 10:59 AM
Actually, the DM doesn't even need to step outside the rules to beat the shivering touch trick.

From the SRD: Ability Damaged (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged)

The character has temporarily lost 1 or more ability score points. Lost points return at a rate of 1 per day unless noted otherwise by the condition dealing the damage. A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious. Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores, which go away when the conditions causing them go away.

From the SRD: Dragon, True (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm)

Immunities (Ex): All dragons have immunity to sleep and paralysis.

So you knock the dragon's Dex to 0 . . . and it has no effect.

The rules are kind of ambiguous here, but somehow, if you're using something as abusive as shivering touch, I doubt the DM is likely to interpret in your favour.

- Saph

From a different SRD (http://geocities.com/sovelior/srd/abilitiesAndConditions.html), Ability Loss

Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.

It mimics paralysis effects while avoiding the label... I don't have my DMG guide in the same building (or state right now) so I don't know who's semantically correct.

But either way you can house rule that it = paralyzed and when the Wizard shivers the dragon, it gets -5 AC and the Wizard gets a Full Attack.

Frosty
2007-11-01, 11:04 AM
Just disallow anything that lets the caster use Shivering touch without actually wading into MELEE combat. Reach Spell metamagic? doesn't work with it. Spectral Hand? It's too cold for the hand to handle. If the caster has to go into melee range to do it, and take AoOs while doing it, then he'll think twice.

Keld Denar
2007-11-01, 11:17 AM
Just disallow anything that lets the caster use Shivering touch without actually wading into MELEE combat. Reach Spell metamagic? doesn't work with it. Spectral Hand? It's too cold for the hand to handle. If the caster has to go into melee range to do it, and take AoOs while doing it, then he'll think twice.

The AoOs are avoided simply by invisibility. Even thought the dragon has blindsense and can pinpoint the squares he moves through, you can't claim AoOs on anything that has concelment. So the wizard could just waltz (or foxtrot even) right up to the dragon and give him the bad touch.

Alternately, the DC to tumble is 15....regardless of whether you are tumbling past a toddler or the BIG T himself. A level 20 wizard CAN have up to 11 ranks in tumble, add +2 for jump synergy for 13, and at least a 12 dex for +14, so he auto suceeds on a 1.

Teleport + Quickened Shivering Touch would work too, to avoid the AoOs. Dim Door would not though.

GoC
2007-11-01, 11:47 AM
The AoOs are avoided simply by invisibility. Even thought the dragon has blindsense and can pinpoint the squares he moves through, you can't claim AoOs on anything that has concelment. So the wizard could just waltz (or foxtrot even) right up to the dragon and give him the bad touch.

Dragons have such high Spot checks that they can easily see an invisible wizard.

Saph
2007-11-01, 11:50 AM
It mimics paralysis effects while avoiding the label... I don't have my DMG guide in the same building (or state right now) so I don't know who's semantically correct.

Yup, like I said, it's ambiguous. However, it means the DM is completely within his rights to say it doesn't work by RAW. Given how broken Shivering Touch is, I doubt you'll find many DMs willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

- Saph

Dausuul
2007-11-01, 12:18 PM
Yup, like I said, it's ambiguous. However, it means the DM is completely within his rights to say it doesn't work by RAW. Given how broken Shivering Touch is, I doubt you'll find many DMs willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

- Saph

Sorry, but "mimicking paralysis effects while avoiding the label" is not paralysis by any stretch of RAW. Paralysis is a specific condition to which dragons are immune. If it's not labelled paralysis, the immunity does not apply, even if the final effect is the same. Cold damage mimics the effect of fire damage (they both result in hit point loss), but being immune to fire does not make you immune to cold.

The official SRD on the WotC website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) does not call it paralysis, so unless the DMG says otherwise, that's pretty conclusive, really. Dex 0 is not paralysis and dragons are not immune. www.d20srd.org is a great website, but it is not the authoritative source for RAW.

Pity. It was such a beautiful loophole, too.

(Of course, the DMG is even more authoritative than Wizards' SRD, so it still has the potential to trump the above... anybody got a copy handy?)

Mr.Moron
2007-11-01, 12:33 PM
(Of course, the DMG is even more authoritative than Wizards' SRD, so it still has the potential to trump the above... anybody got a copy handy?)



Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid and helpless.


Take that mean whatever you will, I'm not weighing in on the argument. I just had the material on-hand.

Kaelik
2007-11-01, 12:44 PM
Dragons have such high Spot checks that they can easily see an invisible wizard.

But spotting an Invisible Wizard is exactly the same as Blindsense in that you know where they are but they still have Total Concealment. Therefore, spotting or no, the Dragon still gets no AoO.

Green and Red
2007-11-01, 02:25 PM
Btw...if anyone know german and translates the joke plz post or PM me:smallbiggrin:

Sorry, but even in german its a string of nonsensical words

SoD
2007-11-01, 02:35 PM
Take that mean whatever you will, I'm not weighing in on the argument. I just had the material on-hand.

Sorry Mr.Moron (geez, I can't help but feel bad even though I'm not insulting you!), but the MM also does say that dragons are immune to paralysis.

I would interpret motionless, rigid and helpless as paralysed.

Artanis
2007-11-01, 02:42 PM
Sorry Mr.Moron (geez, I can't help but feel bad even though I'm not insulting you!), but the MM also does say that dragons are immune to paralysis.

I would interpret motionless, rigid and helpless as paralysed.
A creature that's "motionless, rigid, and helpless" may be paralyzed in the typical sense, but in the sense of rules application, it wouldn't count as the Paralyzed status effect unless it actually said so. So if the RAW does not specifically state that 0 dex inflicts the Paralyzed status effect, it doesn't inflict the Paralyzed status effect, thus bypassing any immunity to such.

Of course, that's RAW. You can interpret it any way you like, as long as you know whether or not it actually is RAW.



Edit: I'm at work and as such don't have any books with me, so I have to go by the SRD. The SRD indicates that Dragons are immune to the Paralyzed status effect, but says nothing about being rendered "motionless, rigid, and helpless" via some other means. Not that that means much, being just the SRD, but I felt I should add that.

WitchSlayer
2007-11-01, 02:50 PM
Otherwise you could say that an elf doesn't go unconcious when reduced to zero WIS, INT, or CHA because they're immune to sleep.

Dausuul
2007-11-01, 04:21 PM
Otherwise you could say that an elf doesn't go unconcious when reduced to zero WIS, INT, or CHA because they're immune to sleep.

Or that anyone under death ward can't be slain by any spell, supernatural ability, or spell-like ability, because they're "immune to magical death effects."

If you dump a dragon in a pit and pour five hundred tons of sand on top of it, it is motionless, rigid, and helpless. Does its immunity to paralysis magically prevent the sand from hindering it?

Regardless, "paralyzed" is a specific condition under RAW. The dictionary definition does not apply. I think I'm going to coin a new fallacy:

Dausuul's Fallacy: Claiming that the dictionary definition of a word is applicable in a rules discussion, when the word in question already has an explicit definition within the rules.

Mr.Moron
2007-11-01, 04:34 PM
Sorry Mr.Moron (geez, I can't help but feel bad even though I'm not insulting you!), but the MM also does say that dragons are immune to paralysis.

I would interpret motionless, rigid and helpless as paralysed.

Maybe, Maybe not. I'm wasn't taking a stance on the were parallelization issue. I was simply quoting the text in the DMG. That's the text as written and that's all it is, I'm not taking sides here.

GoC
2007-11-01, 04:50 PM
Can't we go with RAI instead of RAW?

Collin152
2007-11-01, 09:55 PM
Can't we go with RAI instead of RAW?

Too true.
Call in the Wizards Customer Support!

why123
2007-11-02, 04:06 AM
Otherwise you could say that an elf doesn't go unconcious when reduced to zero WIS, INT, or CHA because they're immune to sleep.