Paladin Gestalt.....and now what? 3.P

[GrayDeath]

Weeelll, letz me take a bit to explain.


We have to suspend our longrunning game (****, especially after we finally got to aim for world domination a short while ago, and with a Dragon in planning to boot....) due to the DM moving for Work.

he wont be back for at least 4 months, maybe longer, depending on the project.

Now we voted on "What D&Desque thing do we want to do in the meantime", and unexpectedly the other 2 players agreed upon "lets do some Clichee Adventures and builds, with mediocre optimization, but LOADS of Power".

I got shafted with the Paladin role (and no, my Homebrewed paladin is not in, fiddleshticks).

Now as OP is limited to at most medium, things like the A-Game Paladin or a full Sorcadin are out (at least I got the Paladin from PF, small mercies....BUT:

I can gestalt the Paladin with a combination of up to 2 CLasses or a Race (using HD as level) Class Combo, main side must be PURE Paladin. with at most a Template.

So my question is: How do I make the most of it without leaving the Paladin Role (Main Beatstick, Face, small time caster)?
Ideally I aim for stacking methods of Grace or other Ability to Saves, as the other 2 are a Shadow Rogue and a classic Elven Wizard.
Any way to add lots of Ability Bonus, mainly Charisma and Strength, is also appreciated.

Summing it up:

3 Player Group. One Old Elven Wizard (Specialized in Divination, will NOT BLast at all), one Shadow Creature Unseelie Fae Rogue (PF, with Rogue Talents).
Paladin (maybe Template)// Race+CLass, what to Do?

LA Buyoff: We can not buy off LA in Game, but up to LA +3 is considered bought off/I can use some on the Race Side if necessary.

Exploits: Nothing like the Otyough Hole, Reformation tricks or Retraining will be allowed.

Point Buy, one 18 pre Race Bonuses, and additional 28pts to spend normally.

Oh, and we start at Level 12, and will likely not reach beyond Level 15 or 16 (expoect 6-7 Games within the enxt 4 Months).

Is there a better way than Savage progression "Enter Good Outsider" Paladin Gestalt to achieve my goals?


Thank you all mightily!

Edit: I need the Info Sunday Morning at the latest. So its kinda urgent, so if possible refrain from "XY might be nice" or "have you thought about ABC" Posts and answer with clear, semibuilt Builds and/or Races etc.
I know, more work. THence More Thank You!!

[Heavenblade]

Probably my favourite thing to do with a gestalt paladin -
Take binder with 2 level dip into ordained champ. Bind andras and tenebrous. Take sun/strength/healing devotion feats, from smite to song (and Dragonfire inspiration if you can), take shield of mercy if avaliable. If you got LOADS of extra place take divine counterspell and ring of spell battle.

Not only these two vestiges are SUPER flavourable for a paladin (especially andras, tenebrous is also an intersting choice for the right paladin). Now your shticks of buffing, protecting, smiting, and healing are all day long instead of a couple times a day.

[Kayblis]

I agree with Heavenblade up there, and add a few ideas:

As you can pick templates and one side is already full Paladin, I recommend taking the Saint template on the other side for your first 2 levels. Then you can take the Binder dip and when it comes time to pick a PrC, War Hulk to flex the STR gains if you find a way to be Large. You lose access to skills, but not spellcasting or healing, and gain melee abilities that most tanks lack.

[Firebug]

Coming from more of the Pathfinder side, but something like Virtuoso Bravo (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Paladin%20Virtuoso %20Bravo) archetyped Paladin which gives up spell-casting for Swashbuckler Deeds. Opportune Parry & Riposte(block attacks), Precise Strike(lvl to damage with 1 hand piercing) and Evasive(evasion and improved uncanny dodge while in light armor) are a few of the notable deeds.

Sorcadin / Oradin (Oracle|Paladin) is a bit of an established build, and it seemed like you didn't want to go that OP, so I would suggest bringing back your 'spellcasting' via gestalting with Skald (https://aonprd.com/ClassDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Skald). Charisma based spell-caster (essentially a hybrid barbarian/bard) so it should tick a few boxes. Probably Urban so you can help out the rogue as well, and you can go Dex based instead of Strength with Virtuoso Bravo. Skald can get you buff abilities (raging song, rage powers), utility spells, face skills (4+int, versatile performance, 1/day nat 20 knowledge), and the ability to cast any spell 1/day from the cleric/bard/wizard list (spell kenning). You don't exactly have a divine caster, so probably eventually spending that on Raise Dead unless you to Ultimate Mercy.

Race is up to you, but it seems like you probably want something with +3 LA because its 'free'. I am partial to Fey'ri from Races of Faerun.

Little uncertain what you mean by "Point Buy, one 18 pre Race Bonuses, and additional 28pts to spend normally." but I am assuming you get an 18, and then have 28 MORE points to spend on the other 5 stats.

To Sum Up: Dexterity/Charisma based, gets level to damage with 1handed, gets level to damage with smite(4 creatures/day), buffs the party's Dex, is a good Face, Grace, Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge, 6-list Cha caster, and 4 Rage Powers.
Pre-race stats: 13 Str; 18 Dex(free); 14 Con; 12 Int; 11 Wis; 18 Cha = 28 points. You could rearrange a bit, but I like the 'cheap' 12s on point buy for when you get ability drained. Probably +Dex on levels 4, 8, &12.

Feats: Fey Foundling; Power Attack; Signature Deed on Opportune Parry and Riposte (panache counts as grit, and swashbuckler counts as gunslinger); and 3 feats free for whatever you feel like
Paladin: Bravo Finesse (Weapon Finesse), +3 Nimble(+dodge in light armor), Deeds, Detect Evil, Smite Evil (4/day), Lay on Hands (6d6, Cha+6/day), Aura of Courage, Aura of Resolve, Divine Grace, Divine Health, Channel Energy (using 2 Lay on Hands).
Deeds: dodging panache, menacing swordplay, opportune parry and riposte, precise strike, swashbuckler initiative, bleeding wound, evasive, subtle blade, superior feint, swashbuckler’s grace, and targeted strike.
Skald: Bardic Knowledge (1/2 level on knowledge checks), Raging Song(as a move action), Controlled Inspired Rage (+4 to Dex, or Str, or Con, no penalties), Infuriating Mockery/Humiliating Defamation/Song of Strength, Back of the Crowd (+2 dodge w/adj to 2 allies), Scribe Scroll, Versatile Performance(3 of them, probably start with Oratory for Diplomacy & Sense Motive, Advanced Versatile to also add another skill, and Martial Performance to get a free Weapon Focus plus count as a 6th level fighter for feats); Spell Kenning 2/day, Loremaster 1/day, 4 Rage Powers to share with your allies
Rage Powers: something like Lesser Spirit for additional Cha based attacks, Regular and Greater just for the range increase, and one of the Linnorm Death Curse ones if your Wizard plans on Summoning at all. Probably Tarn since it doesn't sound like the rogue is doing elemental damage anyway.
Bardic Spell-casting... Well you have up to 4th level spells at 12, and I am not going through those right this moment.

edit accidentally hit submit while filling out the build, so it's coming.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Are you using Pathfinder or 3.5 rules for things like stacking fear effects? If 3.5, maybe use Antipaladin instead.....

(Anti)Paladin//Bard, since PF Bard has no alignment restriction. Go Ifrit with Fiery Glare (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits/fiery-glare-ifrit/), and look at alternate racial traits that replace Fire Affinity and the spell-like ability. Maybe even use Blade of Mercy (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/blade-of-mercy-goddess-of-dawn) with Enforcer (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/enforcer-combat/).

From 3.5, use ACFs for Bard like inspire Awe and trade a song for Haunting Melody per ECS, and also get Imperious Command and the Never Outnumbered skill trick and wear Fearsome armor (DotU version).

[Maat Mons]

I don't understand why Sorcerer would be too OP when one of the other guys is playing a Wizard.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't understand why Sorcerer would be too OP when one of the other guys is playing a Wizard.

Exactly this, the "will NOT BLast at all" only points to the most-optimized Batman (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?104002-3-5e-The-Logic-Ninja-s-Guide-to-Wizards-Being-Batman)-style builds, since blasting is a suboptimal use for spell slots.

[Heavenblade]

Are you using Pathfinder or 3.5 rules for things like stacking fear effects? If 3.5, maybe use Antipaladin instead.....

(Anti)Paladin//Bard, since PF Bard has no alignment restriction. Go Ifrit with Fiery Glare (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits/fiery-glare-ifrit/), and look at alternate racial traits that replace Fire Affinity and the spell-like ability. Maybe even use Blade of Mercy (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/blade-of-mercy-goddess-of-dawn) with Enforcer (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/enforcer-combat/).

From 3.5, use ACFs for Bard like inspire Awe and trade a song for Haunting Melody per ECS, and also get Imperious Command and the Never Outnumbered skill trick and wear Fearsome armor (DotU version).

Antipaladins are CE, LE if Iron tyrants.

[Jervis]

since it's 3.p i'll mention some things from both but stick to pathfinder mostly. Take paladin on one side with Oracle on the other. Between Oracle using Charisma for AC and Ref saves and paladin using it for all Saves you'll be stupidly survivable. Take a level of Mystic Wanderer on the Oracale side to advance it's spellcasting and add Charisma to your AC as a sacred bonus. If your DM lets you then slip in one level of battledancer or something to add Charisma to your AC a third time and ditch heavy armor. Assuming a start of 20 to charisma you'll have about 25 AC naked quickly, add some buff spells somehow and that goes into the stratosphere. Take the Noble Scion feat to use Charisma instead of Dex for initiative and maybe if you can swing it, which you probably couldn't with what you said, take a couple levels in Iijutsu master to add Int to AC and add your Charisma to initiative twice. Also obligatory mention of Witch Hunter who has a ability that adds Charisma to all saves in a way that stacks with Divine Grace to get double your Charisma to all saves. So in short you have tripple charisma to AC, double Charisma to saves, and double Charisma to Initiate all with the ability to dump dex.

[GrayDeath]

I don't understand why Sorcerer would be too OP when one of the other guys is playing a Wizard.


Exactly this, the "will NOT BLast at all" only points to the most-optimized Batman (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?104002-3-5e-The-Logic-Ninja-s-Guide-to-Wizards-Being-Batman)-style builds, since blasting is a suboptimal use for spell slots.

I dont know how much clearer I have to say that We PLay Clichee, And I AM Stuck As The Paladin.

Not a Character that could be a Paladin if you look at it in the right Light, not a Crusader, not a Sorcadin, not even a little.

A Straight Paladin on one Side, and up to 2 classes or one Race and one class on the other that supports that and gives me goodies WITHOUT Making me NOT a Paladin first and foremost. Saves. Stats, Immortality, I`ll take it.
But the active half is my good old Paladin.

I know that Optimization says "play a Full Caster". If it was up to that, I would. It isnt.

I am going to play a Paladin, in an extremely clicheed but more powerful 3 player group because the Clichee needs a shifty Rogue, a straight Played Paladin and an ancient Wizard.
I am, as I wrote in the OP, looking for ways to get Ability Bonus, ideally stacking Grace or similar Saves, stuff that supports me being a paladin etc, to fulfill the Role the other 2 are not.

Please, if you are going to answer, try to help me with what I am actually asking for?

Thank you!

[Jervis]

I mean if you really want to play a Paladin sterotype then i'm not sure why you want to ask. But if you want it then Paladin 20/ Fighter 20 is just paladin with more feats that make you good at paladining. Paladin Oracle is just holy warrior as a fullcaster, honestly better than Sorcadin IMO. Paladin Crusader is just paladin with extra spice. Maybe add in a level or two of Witch Hunter somewhere, its basically just paladin but not, you get extra smites, a version of Divine grace with a different name so it stacks with divine grace, etc. You qualify at level 5. Skylord gives you a flying mount instead of just a horse. A level of monk with the right feat can let you ditch heavy armor and add charisma to AC. But if you really just want to be Paladin with nothing else then i don't see why you even asked, at that point just go Paladighter like i said.

[Aegis013]

Here's a fairly elegant build that you could use that I think fits the spirit of the inquiry:

Paladin 20 // Binder 15 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 5

I suggest Dahlver-Nar as your Patron Vestige. It gives you a handful of nice immunities, a way to boost your AC with Con (tankiness for the Paladin), and the piece de resistance: Shield Self. Retribution is very paladin-y and now you can throw a debuff on a target that funnels half the damage from you to them.

Maddening Moan can be a decent panic button, just be sure not to daze your party. You can fluff it as a holy battle-cry.

You can also try to keep enemies on you using Martial Study/Stance to pick up Iron Guards Glare and/or Thicket of Blades, using a reach weapon, and taking the Standstill feat. You can take improved trip as well, if you have room.

Take whatever other vestiges you think work for what you want the character to do.

A nice benefit to this build is it can do the retribution tanking thing as early as level 1 with Improved Binding feat.

[Maat Mons]

Long ago, when I was new to D&D, I though a Nymph Paladin sounded like a good idea. Later, I realized how much that would suck. But you're in a perfect position to live my youthful dream! Nymph would give you +8 Cha, a defection bonus to AC equal to your Cha, and Cha to saves a second time (unless your DM doesn't let you add the same score twice). Doesn't a Nymph // Paladin of Freedom sound flavorful? A champion of the Seelie Court, standing against the evil Unseelie Court, in the name of Queen Titania!

Savage Species has a racial class for Astral Deva. It requires some updating to 3.5. But they're literal angels who are all about physically smashing the forces of Evil.

Marshal would up your Will save, let you grant temp HP (using the PHB2 ACF), and give you and allies within 60 ft a bonus to whichever save equal to your Cha modifier.

Fighter has an ACF in Complete Champion that would let you make your weapon Good or Lawful.

Paladin // Feat Rogue would be generally better than Paladin // Fighter. You'd get more skill points and a good Ref save. Nothing about those seems opposed to hitting evildoers with a sword. You can trade Trapfinding for the ability to appraise divine items, and trap sense for better AC against spells.

If you're willing to play a Warforged, you could gain all the immunities with Warforged Juggernaut. "My friends call me Murphy, You can call me... Palabot."

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Paladin as the active side, got it.

Go with the 3.5 Tauric Creature template (SS, MM2) which has a +2 LA, but you ignore the LA of the non-humanoid portion. Use that to combine a Human or Half-Elf with a Lammasu (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/lammasu/), which nets you 10 HD of Monstrous Humanoid, since Tauric adds 1 HD. This comes with Oracle 7 spellcasting, a permanent Magic Circle Against Evil, and a few useful spell-like abilities, plus flight and pounce and claw/wing/rake attacks, and Eschew Materials as a racial bonus feat. You use the physical ability bonuses of the Lammasu for Str +12, Dex +2, and Con +10, and +11 natural armor. The humanoid portion's physical ability score bonuses are replaced so just put the humanoid ability bonus on Cha. Human is good for the bonus feat, but I like Half-Elf for the Paladin favored class bonus and two favored classes.

Take spells that buff yourself, fix your allies, and otherwise provide the utility that a Paladin would be missing. Take Unsanctioned Knowledge to fill in the gaps. If you're looking to spend your remaining 1 LA that's bought off, Half-Fiend 1 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) switches your type to Outsider which retroactively gives your racial HD skill points as an Outsider, per the Half-Fiend template. That also gives you claw attacks on your upper limbs and a few other benefits. You can even use a variant half-fiend (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) to gain a ton more class skills for your racial HD and possibly swap the +2 Dex it grants to another ability score. Say that was gained from having been bathed in the blood of a fiend you'd gruesomely slain which would have transformed you into a fiend as well if not for your magic circle, though some of the beginnings of that interrupted transformation still linger.

For the non-gestalt side definitely take levels of Oracle and/or prestige classes that advance your racial casting, you'll be three levels behind on that so Practiced Spellcaster is highly recommended. The Half-Elf favored class bonus for Oracle is absolutely amazing. Consider taking Divine Oracle in Complete Divine, it's fitting and it gives both Evasion and Uncanny Dodge in the first four levels. Paragnostic Apostle in Complete Champion is also highly recommended, but only take as many levels as the number of abilities you want to gain from it.

Definitely take Multiattack, you can use a manufactured weapon and make secondary natural attacks or just stick to all natural weapons if you prefer. Your equipment may largely depend on what you're attacking with. You can cast Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment to buff your weapon, armor, and shield to +3 at your current level. If using natural weapons there's the Amulet of Mighty Fists, or just Permanency + Greater Magic Fang.

[Particle_Man]

So more for theme than for power?

For the basic model I would suggest either Paladin/Knight or Paladin/Cavalier (depending on whether you want more 3.5 or Pathfinder 1 in flavour) and then for race: Half-Dragon (bronze, silver or gold). The latter gives you a "blast" option (since the arcane caster is not going for blast spells) with the breath weapon. And of course the dragon type has a rep for being LG and thus paladin-friendly. I suppose alternatively you could be Aasimar or Dragonborn of Bahamaut.

Another way to go, if you want to Jedi it up, is Paladin on one side and Soulknife (or Soulknife/Illume Soul) on the other. Make cool "shwaaaa" noises when you use your mind blade and you are good to go! :smallsmile:. Actually you could still be a half-dragon here, but there are may options.

[Rebel7284]

For your race, I will recommend Gloura
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e

What it offers to a Paladin:
- Unearthly Grace: A gloura gains a bonus to Armor Class and all saving throws that is equal to its Charisma modifier!!!
- Casting as a 7th level bard keeps the flavor of having access to low level utility spells without becoming a primary caster
- Dex +10, Con +4, Wis+2, Cha +6 is a massive stack of numbers, even if you will have to look hard to find heavy armor that works with your starting Dex. That's a good problem to have. :smallsmile:
- Only LA+2, so you have another point of LA you can spend on something else (Draconic is fun for numbers)
- Fey HD give Good Reflex and Will saves (so all good saves for you)
- Fey HD give skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.

You also still have 5 levels to do other stuff so Binder as folks recommended or more stuff that adds +Cha.
Some dip ideas
-Eldeen Ranger 3 - Charisma to AC
- Marshall 1 - Charisma to something
- Cloistered Cleric 1 - Rebuke Dragons gives you more Turn Undead uses for whichever devotion feats you pick up and domains give you up to three feat equivalents.
- Swordsage 2- if you wear mithral medium armor, the extra Wis to AC is nice and Swordsages have some of the most useful maneuvers, even if the recovery mechanic is terrible.

edit: Re-reading your post, it sounds like you may not necessarily be able to dip in the traditional sense, but Cloistered Cleric is still a good suggestion since it continues with excellent skills and good support spells (cleric spells delayed by 7 levels are not tier 1)
Of course, any initiator is also good, even if there is more overlap with Paladin.

[Darg]

3.5 generic classes might be a good option. Warrior gives you bonus feats as a fighter without it being on the fighter list, expert gives you a lot of skills + bonus feats every 4 levels (extra at 1st and 2nd) + 2 good saves.

Ordained champion would double up your paladin casting + Mystic Fire Knight levels + Sword of the Arcane Order would allow you to use paladin level arcane spells (Alacratous Cogitation + Versatile spellcaster would give you access to 5th level arcane spells written into your spellbook; this also qualifies you to get practical metamagic with dragonblooded for a +0 metamagic to combine with still spell to get same level arcane spells castable in armor). Arcane Disciple feat gives you domain spells for both paladin and ordained champion spell slots as they both use the paladin class list and are considered paladin spells for the battle blessing feat. Don't forget practiced spellcaster for +4 caster levels. Rings of wizardry might be extra useful here.

[Ramza00]

I mean if you really want to play a Paladin sterotype then i'm not sure why you want to ask. But if you want it then Paladin 20/ Fighter 20 is just paladin with more feats that make you good at paladining. Paladin Oracle is just holy warrior as a fullcaster, honestly better than Sorcadin IMO. Paladin Crusader is just paladin with extra spice. Maybe add in a level or two of Witch Hunter somewhere, its basically just paladin but not, you get extra smites, a version of Divine grace with a different name so it stacks with divine grace, etc. You qualify at level 5. Skylord gives you a flying mount instead of just a horse. A level of monk with the right feat can let you ditch heavy armor and add charisma to AC. But if you really just want to be Paladin with nothing else then i don't see why you even asked, at that point just go Paladighter like i said.

I second doing the Pathfinder Oracle especially if you are mixing and matching 3.5 and Pathfinder and can get some 3.5 Spells.

Grab these spells to boost your saves, but also to boost your allies saves

Tyche Touch (24 hours), 2nd, sacred bonus to saves +4 for the first saving throw and loses -1 each time and dispels after 4 saving throws
Greater Resistance (24 hours), 4th, resistance bonus to save (save gp) +3
Conviction 10 min per level, 1st, moral bonus to save up to +5. Or do Mass Conviction as a 3rd level spell
Benediction 10 min per level, 2nd, only helps allies but +2 luck bonus to saves and can reroll a save, or a skill, ability (thus initiative), or attack roll but this reroll ends the spell.

Buff spells to help your armor class.

Get some cleric / oracle spells to help skill checks.

Get some healing spells, oh wait this is a free benefit for Oracle :smallwink: so take a few status removing abilities.

And then you get the curse and oracle focus and choose whichever type you want that matches the goals for this oracle. Pick healing if you want to be an even better healer, or pick one of the dozens of things you are interested in.

------

The whole point of an Oracle-Paladin is to cast those spells outside combat and to pick 10 min per level, 1 hour per level, or 24 hour buffs. At character level 12 that means 10 min per level spells last 2 hours, and with a rod of extend lesser (up to 3rd level spell 3 a day, 3k) those spells are now up for 4 hours. Even a (medium) rod of extend is still cheap at 11k.

After buffing (outside of combat) you remain a paladin, but you are now just a more smashy paladin than before with better numbers, and some more versatility under the hood. After all keep 2 spells per day of each level free* and now you have versatility on the fly as well.

[* Note when I say free, you are a spontaneous caster so spells are always free on the fly. My point is design your build to use 3/4ths of your spellcasting since Oracles are 6 spells per day + Bonus and thus you often will have 7 or 8 total spells per level, plan to have a load out where you have 2 spells for free even if most of your spells will go to buffing. Adjust on the fly your needs though.]

[Firebug]

The whole point of an Oracle-Paladin is to cast those spells outside combat and to pick 10 min per level, 1 hour per level, or 24 hour buffs. At character level 10 that means 10 min per level spells last 2 hours, and with a rod of extend lesser (up to 3rd level spell 3 a day, 3k) those spells are now up for 4 hours. Even a (medium) rod of extend is still cheap at 11k.Generally for Oradin, Oracle was there to provide Life Link to move damage from your party to yourself(and a channel pool), and Paladin was there for Lay On Hands as a swift action to heal yourself up more efficiently with Fey Foundling(+2 healed per die).

For the OP:
If you wanted to go the more damage route with paladin, consider adding in Bloodrager and Furious Finish, and then using the Fatigue Mercy on Lay On Hands to wipe it away and do it again the next round. Basically, maximized Vital Strikes.

[Endarire]

What about Bard on your other side?

[GrayDeath]

Ah, some very interesting Suggestions.

Glaura, I know that from some contests....hmmm, lets see if we can get Charisma to more stuff. ;)
I think a "Paladin but more" with all/most of the Immunities and Charisma to everything sounds about right.

Edit: Cant seem to find it, where was Glaura in again? ^^Thx


Thanks, and keep it coming!

Edit: OK, I think I`ll go for racial/Templates that boost me at the other 2Side.

So Idea atm is: Glaura and 2-4 Half Dragon parts.
Lots of passive bonuses, and the DM agreed that if I spend 2 feats for it (resurgent Breath Weapon and levelling breath weapon respectively) the half Dragons Breath Weapons will each be once per Encounter, and increase the Damage they deal by 1 HD per 4 total HD, so I`ll have 2+ 11D8 Breath Weapons.

Anything else that would fit that idea?

[Rebel7284]

Ah, some very interesting Suggestions.

Glaura, I know that from some contests....hmmm, lets see if we can get Charisma to more stuff. ;)
I think a "Paladin but more" with all/most of the Immunities and Charisma to everything sounds about right.

Edit: Cant seem to find it, where was Glaura in again? ^^Thx


Glad you like it! I did provide a link in my post recommending Gloura to where it is.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e

That page says that it's an excerpt from Underdark, chapter 6.



Thanks, and keep it coming!

Edit: OK, I think I`ll go for racial/Templates that boost me at the other 2Side.

So Idea atm is: Glaura and 2-4 Half Dragon parts.
Lots of passive bonuses, and the DM agreed that if I spend 2 feats for it (resurgent Breath Weapon and levelling breath weapon respectively) the half Dragons Breath Weapons will each be once per Encounter, and increase the Damage they deal by 1 HD per 4 total HD, so I`ll have 2+ 11D8 Breath Weapons.

Anything else that would fit that idea?

I am not sure what you mean by 2-4 half dragon parts. Do you mean the half-dragon transition levels here: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a

Or something else?

I was talking about the Draconic template from races of the dragon, but that's weaker than a half-dragon, especially considering that nice breath houserule.

[GrayDeath]

Nah, I meant Half Dragon Template.

It nowhere says you can have it only once (yes, silly, but not as OP as some other stuff, and the DM kinda OKed it^^).
So far think Half Blue, half Silver, Half Black, Half Amethyst Glaura (need 5 more HD/Levels)// Paladin 20 should do nicely.

2*Cha to Saves, Cha to AC, massive Strength, 16 natural AC, and 4 breath Weapons. + aside from the 2 feats I need it leaves me free to get some extra Smite or Weapon/Skill Feats without having to worry I am out of options.^^

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Arcane Duelist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) 2 add your Cha to your AC again, it requires two feats (Dodge and Mobility). The weapon enhancement bonus that grants specifically stacks with the weapon's existing enhancement bonus.

You can take Monk 1 or 2 (Cobra Strike (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cobraStrike) variant gives you the feats you need for Arcane Duelist) and the feat Ascetic Mage to replace Wis with Cha to your AC.

So you'd be Paladin 20// Fey HD 7/ Monk 2/ Arcane Duelist 2/ Whatever 9, but in your original post you said you'll start at level 12 and expect to reach only 15 or 16.


Gloura are ECL 9 and CR 7 as printed for 3.5, but in Pathfinder CR = ECL (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/), so does their +2 LA count against your already-bought-off +3 LA, or is it negated by the Pathfinder monster PC guidelines? Half-Dragon is LA +3 in 3.5, but CR +2 in both 3.5 and Pathfinder, with no printed LA for Pathfinder because CR = ECL, making it only +2. So you could start out with the above class levels and Half-Dragon twice at level 12 with the already-bought-off +3 LA.

[GrayDeath]

Arcane Duelist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) 2 add your Cha to your AC again, it requires two feats (Dodge and Mobility). The weapon enhancement bonus that grants specifically stacks with the weapon's existing enhancement bonus.

You can take Monk 1 or 2 (Cobra Strike (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cobraStrike) variant gives you the feats you need for Arcane Duelist) and the feat Ascetic Mage to replace Wis with Cha to your AC.

So you'd be Paladin 20// Fey HD 7/ Monk 2/ Arcane Duelist 2/ Whatever 9, but in your original post you said you'll start at level 12 and expect to reach only 15 or 16.


Gloura are ECL 9 and CR 7 as printed for 3.5, but in Pathfinder CR = ECL (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/), so does their +2 LA count against your already-bought-off +3 LA, or is it negated by the Pathfinder monster PC guidelines? Half-Dragon is LA +3 in 3.5, but CR +2 in both 3.5 and Pathfinder, with no printed LA for Pathfinder because CR = ECL, making it only +2. So you could start out with the above class levels and Half-Dragon twice at level 12 with the already-bought-off +3 LA.


Indeed, we start at 12.

My Gloura is without the LA/higher ECL, so 7+2CR per Half Dragon, which I`ll take 4 times, hence my "other 5", as I forgot we wont likely reach beyond 17.

Still, 7+4 leaves me one extra Level to start with, and that Duelists Bonus sounds nice for a, passive side indeed.

Edit: Changed it to Glaura and 3 half Dragons (Silver, red, Blue) on the nongestalt Side, GM agreed that its effectively LA 1 for me, so I wont gain anything for L 13.
Still, a total Bonus of +24 Str, +10 Dex, +8 Con, +6 Int, +4 Wis and +12 Cha is nothing to snooze at, combined with being immune to Cold, Electricity and Fire, and said BreathW eapons which at Start all have 11D8 Damage.

No need to further optimize after that except for that Duelist Monk, if it takes my fancy.

Thanks again for reminding me of the Gloura, and thanks to all whose Suggestions I didnt take as well! :smallcool: