My DM allowed Rage and Reckless attack to work with DEX (to fit my character idea)

[Alucard89]

So my idea for next character is orphan wild elf girl. Enough to say without going into full backstory that she is very primal and uncivilized but due to fact that she is rather short and not very strong she relies more on speed and fast, accurate attacks to deliver pain.

So I am thinking about building Elven Accuracy + Mobile DEX Zealot Barbarian using dual wielding in rage.

I think of going 1 Fighter to get Two Weapon Fighting, then 7-9 levels of Barbarian and then 2 more Fighter levels: Champion for 19-20 crit range.

It's only a base so I am open to all suggestion of Elven Accuracy Barbarian builds.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

If possible, use a double scimitar from the Eberron book. A feat will get you +1 AC and make it a finesse weapon, and +1 Dex to boot. It has the +modifier effect from the Two Weapon Fighting style built in, so you can take Defense or Great Weapon Fighting for extra benefits. This will, admittedly, delay Mobile, but you'll be up on Dex. The weapon is elf-specific in Eberron, so you've got that going for you too, which is nice.

[Yakk]

Owlbear

Rogue/Barbarian who uses sharpshooter darts.

Bear 3/Rogue 6 and you are indestructible; resist all and reaction to halve damage. Bear 5/Rogue 7 and you are a beast; 4d6 sneak, advantage like crazy, 2 attacks.

This does require thrown weapons to also work now that I think about it.

[Mikal]

So my idea for next character is orphan wild elf girl. Enough to say without going into full backstory that she is very primal and uncivilized but due to fact that she is rather short and not very strong she relies more on speed and fast, accurate attacks to deliver pain.

So I am thinking about building Elven Accuracy + Mobile DEX Zealot Barbarian using dual wielding in rage.

I think of going 1 Fighter to get Two Weapon Fighting, then 7-9 levels of Barbarian and then 2 more Fighter levels: Champion for 19-20 crit range.

It's only a base so I am open to all suggestion of Elven Accuracy Barbarian builds.

{scrubbed}
I guess if he’s going to let you do whatever just go with the valenar double scimitar. Take the training to make it dex.

2d4+dex and you get a free bonus attack with it that also includes your dex.

[Yakk]

This isn't all that strong.

Barbarian synergy with GWM -5/+10 is so large that this build's damage will be quite meh in comparison.

It will have higher AC.

[Unoriginal]

So my idea for next character is orphan wild elf girl. Enough to say without going into full backstory that she is very primal and uncivilized but due to fact that she is rather short and not very strong she relies more on speed and fast, accurate attacks to deliver pain.

Is she going to have 8-10 CON, since she's short and not very strong?

[heavyfuel]

People saying this is OP and I'm just here thinking "this might actually make the Barbarian playable"

I'd go for max Con and Dex for that sweet Unarmored Defense AC, and you'll also have the best Dex saves in the game to boot.

I don't think Zealot is the best subclass since your Super Advantage on every attack means you'll be hitting pretty much always, and the Divine Fury extra damage triggers only once per round.

As a matter of fact, I don't think any subclass is good for you. They're all pretty bad for your concept

My suggestion is to go Barb 2/Rogue X. Maybe get a Fighter dip in there at some point for the Fighting Style.


Is she going to have 8-10 CON, since she's short and not very strong?

Since when does size and strength have anything to do with Con?

[Unoriginal]

Since when does size and strength have anything to do with Con?

Dunno, since when does being rather short have anything to do with not being strong or being fast, in D&D?

[heavyfuel]

Dunno, since when does being rather short have anything to do with not being strong or being fast, in D&D?

I don't think OP was saying they were weak and fast as a consequence of being short. The character just happens to be short weak and fast.

[Damon_Tor]

This isn't all that strong.

Barbarian synergy with GWM -5/+10 is so large that this build's damage will be quite meh in comparison.

I disagree. GWM is an overrated feat, made popular exclusively by people who calculate DPR without considering to-hit rate.

Consider a 12th level barbarian. His str is 20. If he's wielding a +1 greataxe he deals 15.5 damage on a hit while raging. His +8 to hit means he hits a Young Red Dragon with a 10 on the die. With Reckless Attack he'll have around a 75% chance to hit every time he swings. With his two attacks per round, that's a DPR of around 23.25

But if he uses GWM he deals 25.5 damage on a hit while raging. His +3 to hit means he hits a Young Red Dragon with a 15 on the die. With Reckless Attack he'll have around a 37.5% chance to hit every time he swings. With his two attacks per round, that's a DPR of around 19.125

In other words, the feat reduces your damage against the very foes you most need to kill quickly. It only improves your damage against enemies with low AC.

But let's talk about Elven Accuracy, an underrated feat for the same reason GWM is overrated: people who don't consider the effects of accuracy on DPR.

A dex-based barbarian who is allowed to use dex for rage damage and reckless attack wielding a +1 rapier deals 13.5 damage on a hit, and his +8 to hit means he hits a Young Red Dragon with a 10 on the die. With Reckless attack and EA he'll have around a 87.5% chance to hit. With his two attacks per round that's a DPR of around 23.625.

"Well okay" you say "That's barely better than a str barbarian that isn't using GWM." But that's missing an important point: the Dex barbarian is dealing the same amount of damage with a rapier as the str barbarian is dealing with a greatsword: he has a free hand for a shield. This means that this build likely has a relative AC of around +5 compared to the standard strength build. That is an absolutely massive benefit. Bonus points: if you don't need strength for anything, you can dump it. It's the least important save and does little for anything else. This means the dex barbarian isn't just going to have a better AC, initiative, and dexterity save when compared to the str build, he's also probably going to have a much strong wisdom save as well because he can afford to make wisdom his tertiary score.

[Bosh]

This isn't all that strong.

Barbarian synergy with GWM -5/+10 is so large that this build's damage will be quite meh in comparison.

It will have higher AC.

It isn't all that strong in isolation. Combined with elven accuracy and a rogue multiclass and it gets a bit loopy.

[heavyfuel]

I disagree. GWM is an overrated feat, made popular exclusively by people who calculate DPR without considering to-hit rate.

Consider a 12th level barbarian. His str is 20. If he's wielding a +1 greataxe he deals 15.5 damage on a hit while raging. His +8 to hit means he hits a Young Red Dragon with a 10 on the die. With Reckless Attack he'll have around a 75% chance to hit every time he swings. With his two attacks per round, that's a DPR of around 23.25

Your thinking is correct in that GWM isn't all that great, but your math is off. A 12th level Barb with 20 Str and a +1 Weapon has +10 to hit, not +8.

[Yakk]

First, PAM before GWM. Have 18 str and both.

Second, 20 str (+5) axe (+1) prof (+4) is +10 to hit.

He hits on an 8+ for 1d12+9 (15.5), and has a 19% chance to land at least one crit (thus bonus action attack).

88% accuracy, 2.19 swings. With brutal crit 1, 32.4716=15.5*2.19*.88+.2*13 DPR

Now with GWM. 25.5 per hit, 2.19 swings, but only 64% accuracy.

38.34=25.5*2.19*.64+.2*13

6 DPR.

Now we lean in, get PAM and GWM and only 18 strength. We now attack 3 times at 58% accuracy 10% crits for (2d10+1d4+30+24) (67.5) hit and 4d10+2d4 (27) crit
67.5*.58+.1*27 is 41.9 damage. Another ~3.5 DPR.

Total delta is 10 DPR, or almost 1/3 more damage.

And this is on a hogher than typical AC target. Oh, and when the dragon flys over, we get a bonus swing.

The +1 rapier barb is hitting on an 8+ with triple advantage. 96% accuracy; the problem is, 96 isn't much better than 88%. You do get 14% crits.

.96*(4.5+5+1+3)*2+.14*18 is 28 DPR. Not enough taps.

Double scimitar is .96*(10+18+2.5+9)+.14*(5*5)=41.42, which is solid. The taps are enough!

16 starting dex, 14 con. +1 at 4, +1 at 8, +2 dex at 12.

18 AC, which isn't bad. But only really useful when ambushed.

A flaming double scimitar boosts this more than a flaming polearm does for the PAM build.

[Alucard89]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
I guess if he’s going to let you do whatever just go with the valenar double scimitar. Take the training to make it dex.

2d4+dex and you get a free bonus attack with it that also includes your dex.

Please don't insult people you don't know. It's DMs right and part of fun to alert RAW to suit his/players vision of upcoming games. RAW is not a cage you can't get out from.


Is she going to have 8-10 CON, since she's short and not very strong?

? What CON has to do with STR? She is short and not strong but she has very good condition. Running, dodging, being mobile and fast on your feet requires condition, not strength.

Marathon runners, cyclists, fencers, hand to hand combat specialists etc. don't deadlift 250kg, but they have great conditioning and edurance.

Suddenly every Rogue also should have low CON cause he doesn't rely on strength?

[FoxWolFrostFire]

It is kind of your DM but I can't say I would have let that as DEX is already such a important stat and the Barb is balanced around using STR.

That being said. I'm here to help suggest things. Maybe rather than those three levels of fighter, monk could do you some favors? Kensi would blend pretty well and it goes good with the speedy mobile type your looking for.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

It is kind of your DM but I can't say I would have let that as DEX is already such a important stat and the Barb is balanced around using STR.

That being said. I'm here to help suggest things. Maybe rather than those three levels of fighter, monk could do you some favors? Kensi would blend pretty well and it goes good with the speedy mobile type your looking for.

I actually think he should keep the fighter levels. Elven Accuracy + on-demand advantage generation says crit fisher to me. And there's plenty of levels left in the build to find some bonus damage sources.

[FoxWolFrostFire]

I actually think he should keep the fighter levels. Elven Accuracy + on-demand advantage generation says crit fisher to me. And there's plenty of levels left in the build to find some bonus damage sources.

Would a better way to crit fish with Elven Accuracy is to samuri over champion?

Edit: Never mind forgot reckless attack. Champion is better for sure

[Mikal]

Please don't insult people you don't know. It's DMs right and part of fun to alert RAW to suit his/players vision of upcoming games. RAW is not a cage you can't get out from.

{scrubbed} As has been pointed out this is a great power boost for any barbarian, due to making them remove their primary stat and letting them change it to a secondary while using one of the most universally agreed on strongest stats in the game as a primary, with nasty synergy when added to rogue levels.

{scrubbed}

[da newt]

A dex raging Barb would be great. I'd suggest S&B, Ancestral Guardian Barb and MC into Rogue for CA and SA and dip into fighter for FS and 2nd wind. You should be able to build a high AC, high mobility, good damage and hard debuff to 1 enemy.

A 1 lvl dip into rogue will net 1d6 / round damage - same as Zealot.
A 1 lvl dip into fighter for dueling will net +2 dam per hit.

Once you have cunning actions you can strike the BBEG and then disengage forcing them to chase you or attack others w/ disadv, and w/ EA and two attacks / turn you should be able to hit everything at least once per turn.

I'd ask the DM if you could quest for the Scimitar of Speed.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

That's not exactly helpful.

Damon, Yakk, heavyfuel - are you considering Reckless Attack and advantage in your calculations?

[Yakk]

Yes, those all have advantage (and triple-advantage).

Hence 96% hit chance/88% hit chance/etc. You can't get that with a raw d20.

[heavyfuel]

Damon, Yakk, heavyfuel - are you considering Reckless Attack and advantage in your calculations?

I am. With advantage, GWM is barely worth over regular attacking. Without advantage it's much worse, and if you actually have disadvantage for some reason (unlikely on a Barb), it's completely useless.

Also, I'm considering 20 Str for both cases, which was benefitial to GWM, since you'll usually have to choose between 18 Str + GWM and 20 Str, at least in the early levels.

[Damon_Tor]

That's not exactly helpful.

Damon, Yakk, heavyfuel - are you considering Reckless Attack and advantage in your calculations?

Yes, though the others were right that my calculations were off by +2 to attack.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Lovely. Thank you guys.

[GlenSmash!]

The best time to use GWM is against hordes of low AC/Low HP where removing as many as possible in a single round can turn the tide of the battle (Hordes have a huge benefit from the action economy perspective). A group of Shadows can devastate a party very quickly since strength damage can often kill a character faster than HP damage. Low strength characters could go down i a round or two. Being able to use GWM to one-shot 2-3 shadows a turn makes a big difference. Of course a Fighter is even better at 11+ once they get more attacks.

Anyway, my advice to the OP is that your DM is being very generous so I wouldn't try to cheese the build too much with stuff like triple advantage and double-scimitars lest you make them regret their decision, but of course you know your DM better than I do.

[Alucard89]

I have problem with double scimitar, not because it's bad weapon, but:

1. It requires feat so pretty much you commit only to use such weapon. PAM is simillar, but less because it covers staffs, spears, glaives and halberds
2. Which leads to this point: magic weapon. My DM is usually fair and try to give everyone a fair share of magic items, but it's still a risk to lock myself into using only one particular weapon and then not finding a magic one.

Which leads to me to TWF, which usually is worse than PAM, but for dex using 2x light weapons covers the following weapons: Clubs, Daggers, Handaxe, Light hammers, Sickles, Scimitars, Shortswords and (at our table due to house rule) whips.

Thanks for all the suggestions though. I like the Idea of Rogue mix since it would fit her very well and her attack style. So maybe to not cheese crit-fishing that much I would go for:

1 Fighter (TWF)/6 Zealot Barbarian or Totem/15 Rogue. 6 Zealot Levels would give me extra 1d6 +3, which is equal to 2d6. At level 6 Rogue would have 3d6 Sneak attack. So in the end I would only lose 1d6 in Sneak Attack progression overall.

I think Scout, Assassin or Swashbuckler would be best fit for her.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I have problem with double scimitar, not because it's bad weapon, but:

1. It requires feat so pretty much you commit only to use such weapon. PAM is simillar, but less because it covers staffs, spears, glaives and halberds
2. Which leads to this point: magic weapon. My DM is usually fair and try to give everyone a fair share of magic items, but it's still a risk to lock myself into using only one particular weapon and then not finding a magic one.

Which leads to me to TWF, which usually is worse than PAM, but for dex using 2x light weapons covers the following weapons: Clubs, Daggers, Handaxe, Light hammers, Sickles, Scimitars, Shortswords and (at our table due to house rule) whips.

Thanks for all the suggestions though. I like the Idea of Rogue mix since it would fit her very well and her attack style. So maybe to not cheese crit-fishing that much I would go for:

1 Fighter (TWF)/6 Zealot Barbarian or Totem/15 Rogue. 6 Zealot Levels would give me extra 1d6 +3, which is equal to 2d6. At level 6 Rogue would have 3d6 Sneak attack. So in the end I would only lose 1d6 in Sneak Attack progression overall.

I think Scout, Assassin or Swashbuckler would be best fit for her.

My recommendation would be to avoid Assassin, personally; I'm not sure it fits the character you're looking for, but that's just my opinion. I also think it's the worst rogue archetype if you can't guarantee surprise. If you don't want to crit-fish, I'd drop fighter levels entirely. In the new Feats UA, you can get a fighting style with a feat. That UA is available here: https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/UA2020_Feats.pdf

There's also the UA ranger variant that drops spellcasting for battlemaster fighter superiority dice and maneuvers; that might work well with your character too.