Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?

[pwning doodes]

Looking back on it, it seems strange to me that the defenses for Dorukan's gate could be overcome by a party of low level adventurers. A couple hundred of the minions in the dungeon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0071.html) were brought in by Xykon and not part of the initial defenses. Other than the challenge Xykon provided, the protective measures keeping the gate safe were pretty weak: a Cloister spell, a dungeon full of low-level monsters, one secret door, and a single sigil that could only be touched by someone of pure heart. The path to the gate goes through "many dangerous areas" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0094.html), but it seems the most dangerous of these is the Corridor of Very Toxic Sulfur Fumes, which posed no problem at all to our heroes (or the teenage goblins). Even the elemental corridors from the Linear Guild arc were only to guard the talisman, not the gate. Compared to Soon's walled city full of paladins, Lirian's magic-sapping trap, and Girard's wily illusion pyramid, the Dungeon of Dorukan is downright pitiful. He was an epic-level Wizard, right? My only explanation is that Rich didn't have the gate theme or the Order of the Scribble fully thought out back then and it was just supposed to be a generic dungeon for a low-level party. What do you guys think is going on?

[KorvinStarmast]

His original purpose was to crack jokes about D&D players, and the silly rules of D&D, and to tell a story based on D&D with much irreverence.

Mission accomplished.

The Vin-Diesel-styled explosion at the end was icing on the cake.

What more are you asking for?

[understatement]

Dorukan originally wasn't even meant to be a person.

Roy himself calls his victory over Xykon a fluke .

[DataNinja]

Presumably Xykon destroyed or disabled or whatever some of the nastier stuff that would've been a challenge for him, leaving only the stuff that he could just laugh off. And that he could get a laugh out of his minions falling for.

[Harbinger]

Well, the actual reason is that Rich never intended the comic to be taken seriously at that point like it is now - it was just a joke-a-day about D&D for people browsing his gaming articles. It retroactively became a part of this huge plot about the gates.

But we can construe the in-universe explanation to be that Xykon/Redcloak cleared out most of the actual threats in the dungeon before the Order even got there.

[Squire Doodad]

Presumably Xykon destroyed or disabled or whatever some of the nastier stuff that would've been a challenge for him, leaving only the stuff that he could just laugh off. And that he could get a laugh out of his minions falling for.

This seems like the most logical explanation.

[Mr. Demiurge]

Dorukan originally wasn't even meant to be a person.

Roy himself calls his victory over Xykon a fluke .

If someone is looking for in-universe explanations for all the stuff that happens when the comic was just a gag-a-day strip, I think sufficient retroactive explanations can be thought up without too much difficulty, as people are doing above.

The one thing I have no real in-universe, retroactive explanation for, however, is why Roy chose to lead a party of adventurers who found goblins challenging to face a lich we now know is an epic-level sorcerer backed up by a similarly leveled priest. Roy being a smart guy, I have to suspect he'd done enough research to know he was biting off a whole lot more than he could chew by going after Xykon at such a low level, and if not for that fluke victory and Xykon actively holding back the entire party would have been slaughtered.

Or maybe there's an explanation in Origin of PCs? Haven't read it yet.

[Squire Doodad]

If someone is looking for in-universe explanations for all the stuff that happens when the comic was just a gag-a-day strip, I think sufficient retroactive explanations can be thought up without too much difficulty, as people are doing above.

The one thing I have no real in-universe, retroactive explanation for, however, is why Roy chose to lead a party of adventurers who found goblins challenging to face a lich we now know is an epic-level sorcerer backed up by a similarly leveled priest. Roy being a smart guy, I have to suspect he'd done enough research to know he was biting off a whole lot more than he could chew by going after Xykon at such a low level, and if not for that fluke victory and Xykon actively holding back the entire party would have been slaughtered.

Or maybe there's an explanation in Origin of PCs? Haven't read it yet.

Redcloak was like level 15 at the time, but he still could probably have gone 1v1 against any member of the order.
Though I think the entire order was mid level? They got two levels in the dungeon, and then they were good enough to be called "already high level" during Roy's death.

In either case, the climax in the Dungeon of Dorukan would have been a slaughter had Xykon been serious. RC might have died if it was him vs the Order, but Xykon alone would have been more than a challenge for them.

[Cazero]

Also Xykon wanted a Good adventurer to unlock that sigil for him. Preferably low enough level to terminate them on the spot once it's done.

[Corian]

Reminder: they skipped two dungeon levels thanks to Celia’s employee backdoor. Maybe those were really tough?

[C-Dude]

The in-comic explanation is that Dorukan--the mighty wizard orchestrating all the defenses of his epic dungeon/gate defense--vanished a few months ago. It's the same reason Girard's pyramid was mostly defenseless.

If that isn't enough of an explanation, there's more from Start of Darkness.
Xykon killed Dorukan outside the tower and subsequently routed his forces, save those related to the Amulet of Dorukan for which Xykon had no interest (Remember, touching the sigils was Nale's plan, to control the 2nd ed monsters). Since that was only a few months before the comic started as indicated by Redcloak training the new door guard, (which was evaded by Roy's OotS in the bonus strips at the start of "Dungeon Crawlin' Fools" {print} ) there may not have been enough time to bother setting up appropriate defenses. Or perhaps Xykon was so smug he didn't think he'd need the defenses, or to even hold the dungeon for long... the seal which inevitably exploded him was the only thing stalling his completion of the Gate ritual.

[Mic_128]

Looking back on it, it seems strange to me that the defenses for Dorukan's gate could be overcome by a party of low level adventurers.]

That was because Xykon needed them to make it through because of-

[Quote]a single sigil that could only be touched by someone of pure heart.

[Bad Wolf]

Obviously the DM stuck to level appropriate encounters for the party.

[dancrilis]

Xykon delibrately laid out the dungeon with the weakest monsters first getting steadily more dangerous so he could sit back and watch the show.

[Morquard]

His original purpose was to crack jokes about D&D players, and the silly rules of D&D, and to tell a story based on D&D with much irreverence.

Mission accomplished.
And one of those silly rules or tropes in D&D is that if a party of adventurers runs into a group of monsters, it's somehow a "level-appropriate encounter". Even if logically it makes little sense.

[hroþila]

Reality alters itself to be largely level-appropriate. It's built-in into the universe.

[snowblizz]

All the gates' defences are weakened by following the idiosyncrasies of their owners. Although funnily to some degree they all seem to have worked (Xykon *was* defeated at Lirian's gate). The problem really is that each member of the Scribblers only really made the gates secure against a fairly limited type off attack. Anything out of the left fields tends to overcome the defences.

Only Serinis defences are holding for a reasonable time against a determined assualt, and I suspect MitD sabotaging the system is helping. The problem really is that no one way of protecting the gates will keep determined attacker at bay, if a gatekeeper could expect to be supported by thier old comrades... well it'd be a totally differnt ballgame.

Dorukan's weakness was that he thought only magic would work, and he wasn't totally wrong, it did keep our Redcloak and Xykon, and it seems would have indefinitely, except for the arrival of our heroes. But it also relied on his own personal involvement as a powerful wizard. That didn't end up as well as he probably thought. Before he was lured out Dorukan seemed perfectly capable of keeping RC and Xykon out of his dungeon.

It's funny, the more I think of it the more I see ways in which each gate defence actually worked, yet eventually are brought down by flaws of it's creator. Even the Azure City one was winning, though more or less without the help of the city itself.

And let's not forget the key part, the OotS didn't battle through Dorukan's defences, they battled through what was left after the clash of Dorukan and Xykon.

[Synesthesy]

Xykon should have been an more then enough hard defence.

However, the reason was that Xykon wanted the order to come to the end of the dungeon so they could unlock the only defence he was not able to overcome. Probably brute force, fire and lightning weren't able to destroy the sigil that only a good character could unlock. So he let them go to the end sure that no fighter would try to throw him in the Gate.

[Quild]

Xykon and RC overcame much of the defenses, including Dorukan himself.

#192 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html) also shows a monster that caused them some trouble back in Dorukan's dungeon (and is seen in On the Origine of PCs).

[hroþila]

Dorukan's defenses did hold out. Xykon and Redcloak couldn't breach them, and they were stuck there for months. Even after defeating Dorukan himself, they still couldn't get past the sigil, and while Xykon had figured out what he needed to do to unlock the Gate he still didn't succeed. I'd say Dorukan's defenses worked fine. By comparison, Serini's defenses have only held for a much shorter time so far, although it remains to be seen whether they too will be breached.

[Alcore]

Each defense was modeled after its owner.


Soon believed in the power of honor and the community so had an entire paladin order.

The druid believed in the power of nature and had many natural defenses.

Dorukan seemed to believe in himself. He protected the gate with smaller weaker defenses to keep out things he didn't want to waste time on. True that he had help with big things but they appeared to be things he magiced up himself (summons, magic items and the like).


All the gates were doomed to failure as each person over specialized in its defense. If the Order had not crumbled each gate would of had more varied defenses.

[WindStruck]

Well... I'd say that after Xykon killed Dorukan and took over his dungeon, that yeah, the defenses of that dungeon became quite weaker.

Also, it's already been pointed out that Xykon wanted some foolish adventurers to make it to the bottom and touch the gate anyway.

[Ron Miel]

Many of the defences were designed to keep out Evil, but a Good person can pass them.

[woweedd]

Dorukan's own defenses were very, VERY sparas, because they're all a distraction: The only real defense is the sigils, and good luck getting to that, without tripping into Dorukan himself. Basically, all the other defenses are just meant to distract you and wear you down, because the only real defense is the rune-that-frys-anyone-evil, which is kinda all you need.

[The Pilgrim]

What was easy at the Dungeon of Dorukan? It took the Order of the Stick a whole book to clear it! It looked like they would be there locked forever!

[Alcore]

What was easy at the Dungeon of Dorukan? It took the Order of the Stick a whole book to clear it! It looked like they would be there locked forever!

also heavily implied that the Order was mid level-ish. 90% of the people out there could not get close to the Gate without an army; and that's Xykon's defenses (who wanted one someone to get in by the time of the big battle)

[snowblizz]

Also, it's already been pointed out that Xykon wanted some foolish adventurers to make it to the bottom and touch the gate anyway.

Actually, to be clear. Xykon wanted the adventurers to be entertainment for the day. Which is why he designed his initial defences to be a lvl appropriate increasing challenge. Providing a humorous answer to the question why would a dungeon be like this anyway. RC quite sensibly suggest a more effective way if actually wanting to defend.

Half-way through, however, he learns through Nale's intervention that the good adventurers have a direct use in his gate related plans.

Of course Dorukan's defences is also defeated by an idiot bard pressing a self-destruction rune. In the sense that it blows the entire thing up and that intact gates are kinda vital. Girard's simlarly is destroyed by physical force, as is Soon's.

Girard's gate wouldn't have stood aginst the undead lich, descendents living or not I think? Though I don't remmber all of the discussions. Ultimately, Girard built defences against Soon's meddling more than anything. Which was his weakness, you can't hide and illusion away people who knows it's there because Serini had the exact cordinates.

Lirian's gate won, effectively. But for druids life is precious so she didn't kill the defeated where they stood. And made sure all of this happened.

Dorukan's gate was holding. But I'm not convinced it wasn't, given enough time, doomed to be revealed that someone good could bypass the final defence.

Soon's gate also nearly won. I can't argue Miko was unavoidable (though the Sapphire Guard kinda ends up defeating tiself), so am going to have to say Soon's defences at least would have worked against Xykon. Cosmic irony for the win I guess?

Of course there are meta reason the gates have to fall too. Hard to get around.

And there is a question what are the defences suppsoed to do, keeping away Xykon and RC's Plan that may or mat no work is one thing. But fundamentally the gates defences need to make sure the gates stand and rifts kept under control. None of them were very good at doing that.

[Metastachydium]

Lirian's gate won, effectively. But for druids life is precious so she didn't kill the defeated where they stood. And made sure all of this happened.

In fact, Lirian's was the Gate with probably the weakest defenses. I mean, were it attacked by that version of Team Evil which assaulted the other Gates, her trump card (the anti-magic virus (and, for that matter, any kind of virus)) would have failed to so much as tip the scales: Xykon would have been unaffected, Redcloak would have been unaffected, and were they to bring along a few ghouls, ghasts, wights and perhaps a couple major league undead monstrosities (the decoys come to mind), the whole business would have been little more than an evening walk for Xykon &Co.


Dorukan's gate was holding. But I'm not convinced it wasn't, given enough time, doomed to be revealed that someone good could bypass the final defence.

Pretty much. He was lucky that Xykon entertained himself via tossing his own minions into it, rather than capturing some of Dorukan's good-aligned employees, and, well, tossing those.


Soon's gate also nearly won. I can't argue Miko was unavoidable (though the Sapphire Guard kinda ends up defeating tiself), so am going to have to say Soon's defences at least would have worked against Xykon. Cosmic irony for the win I guess?


Well, yeah, Xykon (as a lich) wiped the floor clean with both Lirian and Dorukan. Soon very nearly destroyed his body, very nearly killed Redcloak, and very nearly secured the phylactery and his ultimately failing to do so was no merit of Team Evil and no fault of his own, so I'd say he'd be our winner.

[Peelee]

In fact, Lirian's was the Gate with probably the weakest defenses. I mean, were it attacked by that version of Team Evil which assaulted the other Gates, her trump card (the anti-magic virus (and, for that matter, any kind of virus)) would have failed to so much as tip the scales: Xykon would have been unaffected, Redcloak would have been unaffected, and were they to bring along a few ghouls, ghasts, wights and perhaps a couple major league undead monstrosities (the decoys come to mind), the whole business would have been little more than an evening walk for Xykon &Co.

"Weak to one specific possibility" does not mean "weak overall." Heck, if we're going by that metric, Girard's Gate was the weakest, since the defenders were all dead and Xykon knew the exact location.

[Anonymouswizard]

All the gates' defences are weakened by following the idiosyncrasies of their owners. Although funnily to some degree they all seem to have worked (Xykon *was* defeated at Lirian's gate). The problem really is that each member of the Scribblers only really made the gates secure against a fairly limited type off attack. Anything out of the left fields tends to overcome the defences.

Only Serinis defences are holding for a reasonable time against a determined assualt, and I suspect MitD sabotaging the system is helping. The problem really is that no one way of protecting the gates will keep determined attacker at bay, if a gatekeeper could expect to be supported by thier old comrades... well it'd be a totally differnt ballgame.

This, although the MitD's efforts may be pointless, and they play into one of the ways that the gates are protected. Kragor's Gate is the only one protected by not only brute strength but also magic and trickery, and I wouldn't be shocked if it's the only Gate with some sort of emergency 'warn the others if loss is likely' system.

It's not like Dorukan's Gate was poorly defended, even when past the initial defences Xykon (who as has been established, was level 21+) still couldn't do anything with the Gate he'd claimed. Unlike Soon or Draketooth the defence wasn't about being unable to get to the gate, but rendering it as impossible to use as he could (and also as undiscoverble as possible). It's also possible that the Amulet of Outdated Monsters was there as a distraction, I mean in a world run on narrative rules how likely is it that there are two major artefacts in one dungeon?

Each Gate is poorly warded against some kind of attack, but incredibly strong in another fashion. Dorukan's Gate was arguably better protected than Soon's, as sooner or later an epic level necromancer could overrun Azure City.

[Metastachydium]

"Weak to one specific possibility" does not mean "weak overall." Heck, if we're going by that metric, Girard's Gate was the weakest, since the defenders were all dead and Xykon knew the exact location.

The basis of my comparison was „how well the defenses worked against a full-powered Team Evil” (which is part of the reason why I omitted Girard's Gate). Also, I can't see how ”defenceless against powerful undead creatures when at full strength” (because, let's face it, that's pretty much the case with Lirian's Gate) is comparable with ”only a little tricky once left undefended due to an accident” (the only real hole in Girard's defenses was the fact that most of them had to be renewed periodically).



Each Gate is poorly warded against some kind of attack, but incredibly strong in another fashion. Dorukan's Gate was arguably better protected than Soon's, as sooner or later an epic level necromancer could overrun Azure City.

Disagreed. Azure City did not constitute the main protection Soon's Gate had. Its main protection (which could not be switched off in any way we know of as long as the Gate was intact) consisted of the ghost martyrs (Soon included), an ever growing, insanely dangerous fighting force led by Soon('s ghost) himself, and our epic level necromancer failed to beat them, big time.

[Peelee]

The basis of my comparison was „how well the defenses worked against a full-powered Team Evil” (which is part of the reason why I omitted Girard's Gate). Also, I can't see how ”defenceless against powerful undead creatures when at full strength” (because, let's face it, that's pretty much the case with Lirian's Gate) is comparable with ”only a little tricky once left undefended due to an accident” (the only real hole in Girard's defenses was the fact that most of them had to be renewed periodically).

Lirian's Gate functioned perfectly fine against a full-powered Team Evil. It took them out.

Were they full-powered right after he became a lich? Since then, he has gained XP and Redcloak has advanced to 17th level. Are they full power now? What if Redcloak manages to hit epic level before the comic finishes (unlikely, but for the purposes of this argument)? The problem with your assertion is that you're taking "full-powered" to mean "as they are at an arbitrary point in time". And I'm pointing out that if you can pull out an arbitrary point in time to argue that a Gate's defenses were weak, I can do the same thing with another Gate's defenses. I'm showing you why this doesn't work.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

(the only real hole in Girard's defenses was the fact that most of them had to be renewed periodically).

I'd say that undead being immune to most illusions was also a major hole in the defences, even when fully staffed.

In fact, I have to suspect that the Scribblers never really faced any serious undead opponents, since both Lirian and Girard seem to have had a major blind spot when it came to them. They probably only encountered low-level will-less undead like zombies, and never once considered what'd happen if they came up with independent undead like vampires or liches (curious that the dwarves had a similar blind spot - despite Xykon, it feels like independently-willed undead are really, really uncommon in OotS)

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

it feels like independently-willed undead are really, really uncommon in OotS

Given how incredibly powerful they can be, that makes sense. The world is weirdly balanced, after all.

[Metastachydium]

Lirian's Gate functioned perfectly fine against a full-powered Team Evil. It took them out.

Were they full-powered right after he became a lich? Since then, he has gained XP and Redcloak has advanced to 17th level. Are they full power now? What if Redcloak manages to hit epic level before the comic finishes (unlikely, but for the purposes of this argument)? The problem with your assertion is that you're taking "full-powered" to mean "as they are at an arbitrary point in time". And I'm pointing out that if you can pull out an arbitrary point in time to argue that a Gate's defenses were weak, I can do the same thing with another Gate's defenses. I'm showing you why this doesn't work.

K. Let's approach the problem from another angle, then. Immediately after Xykon has become a lich, he steamrolled Lirian with precious little effort and limited input from his allies (because there was a big gaping hole in her defences).
Then he became stronger, as did Redcloak, got a new army, added the Monster to the team, and he (mind you, we are talking about Xykon) still considered waiting outside the walls and trying to lure Dorukan out a wiser option than storming his Dungeon. Once he took the dungeon, it took him months to figure out how the deactivate the sigil, and even after he's figured that one out, he could not crack it open on his own.
Then he became even stronger, as did Redcloak, he got hold of a corps-sized fighting force, he stormed the castle of Azure City… And were it not for MIko's self-important idiocy, he and Redcloak would have died.
So, ultimately Lirian's Gate did worse against a weaker Team Evil than later Gates with their respective defences against a stronger Team Evil, mostly because of its faulty design.


I'd say that undead being immune to most illusions was also a major hole in the defences, even when fully staffed.

Good point. Although, at least he had the decency to not leave it out in the open as Lirian did, and hid it behind something that cannot be dispelled or bypassed by the undead (the lead-lined column worked just fine against Malack, a powerful undead creature, after all).


In fact, I have to suspect that the Scribblers never really faced any serious undead opponents, since both Lirian and Girard seem to have had a major blind spot when it came to them. They probably only encountered low-level will-less undead like zombies, and never once considered what'd happen if they came up with independent undead like vampires or liches (curious that the dwarves had a similar blind spot - despite Xykon, it feels like independently-willed undead are really, really uncommon in OotS)

Grey Wolf

Well, their existence is common knowledge, at any rate, as any acolyte in Tinkertown would tell you, and people know to be afraid of them.

[dancrilis]

The basis of my comparison was „how well the defenses worked against a full-powered Team Evil” (which is part of the reason why I omitted Girard's Gate). Also, I can't see how ”defenceless against powerful undead creatures when at full strength” (because, let's face it, that's pretty much the case with Lirian's Gate) is comparable with ”only a little tricky once left undefended due to an accident” (the only real hole in Girard's defenses was the fact that most of them had to be renewed periodically).


If a single caster can destroy your defences by accident while leaving what is being defended intact then perhaps your defences aren't that great.



Its main protection (which could not be switched off in any way we know of as long as the Gate was intact) consisted of the ghost martyrs (Soon included), an ever growing, insanely dangerous fighting force led by Soon('s ghost) himself, and our epic level necromancer failed to beat them, big time.

Had Xykon followed Redcloak's plan and they captured the city prior to taking the gate room then Soon would likely have destroyed the gate himself to keep it out of their hands.
Had Redcloak followed Redcloak's plan and sought to fully capture the city prior to taking the gate room then Xykon might have been destroyed ... for a few days and then came back with greater knowledge of the opponent, better tactics, and a reduced defence force and so Soon likely would have destroyed the Gate to keep it out of their hands.

And all that is ignoring that Soon himself only gave himself a might of actually destroying Xykon permanently in the fight if Miko hadn't acted, he was able to do nothing to stop Xykon escaping with Redcloak.

[Peelee]

K. Let's approach the problem from another angle, then. Immediately after Xykon has become a lich, he steamrolled Lirian with precious little effort and limited input from his allies (because there was a big gaping hole in her defences).
Then he became stronger, as did Redcloak, got a new army, added the Monster to the team, and he (mind you, we are talking about Xykon) still considered waiting outside the walls and trying to lure Dorukan out a wiser option than storming his Dungeon. Once he took the dungeon, it took him months to figure out how the deactivate the sigil, and even after he's figured that one out, he could not crack it open on his own.
Then he became even stronger, as did Redcloak, he got hold of a corps-sized fighting force, he stormed the castle of Azure City… And were it not for MIko's self-important idiocy, he and Redcloak would have died.
So, ultimately Lirian's Gate did worse against a weaker Team Evil than later Gates with their respective defences against a stronger Team Evil, mostly because of its faulty design..

Yes, Lirian's Gate was remarkably weak to intelligent, magic-using undead. That is a functional point of each Gate's protections being weaker due to the tunnel vision of its warder than they would have been if they had continued to work together.

ETA: If Lirian's Gate hadn't been the first one Team Evil had attempted, Xykon would never have been turned into a lich to begin with, and the other struggles for the Gates would have gone remarkably differently. Because they each had unique weaknesses. Every Gate's defenses has had a faulty design. That's the point.

[dancrilis]

Every Gate's defenses has had a faulty design. That's the point.

Well we don't know that about Kraagor's yet.

[Peelee]

Well we don't know that about Kraagor's yet.

Wanna put some gold on it?:smallamused:

[dancrilis]

Wanna put some gold on it?:smallamused:

Gold on that we don't know it yet?

[Metastachydium]

If a single caster can destroy your defences by accident while leaving what is being defended intact then perhaps your defences aren't that great.

A single caster spliced with the soul of the most powerful Neutral Evil necromancer Nero could spare, able to cast some obscure homebrewn spell, mind you. But other than that, yeah.




Had Xykon followed Redcloak's plan and they captured the city prior to taking the gate room then Soon would likely have destroyed the gate himself to keep it out of their hands.
Had Redcloak followed Redcloak's plan and sought to fully capture the city prior to taking the gate room then Xykon might have been destroyed ... for a few days and then came back with greater knowledge of the opponent, better tactics, and a reduced defence force and so Soon likely would have destroyed the Gate to keep it out of their hands.

Xykon capturing the city wouldn't have changed much. His low-level clerics and foot soldiers were no match for the ghost martyrs; for all we know, they could have held the throne room indefinitely.


And all that is ignoring that Soon himself only gave himself a might of actually destroying Xykon permanently in the fight if Miko hadn't acted, he was able to do nothing to stop Xykon escaping with Redcloak.

Well, Xykon seemed to agree that his body was done for, and he could only have grown a new one in the same throne room, where it could have been destroyed with even less effort by the same Soon. Also, Team Evil only managed to escape after the gem was broken. Were it not for that (and perhaps the distraction), I doubt that they could have gotten too far.


Yes, Lirian's Gate was remarkably weak to intelligent, magic-using undead.

Which Dorukan's and Soon's wasn't, and Kraggor's isn't.


That is a functional point of each Gate's protections being weaker due to the tunnel vision of its warder than they would have been if they had continued to work together.

Yes, mostly (although I'd still say Soon did better than the rest).


ETA: If Lirian's Gate hadn't been the first one Team Evil had attempted, Xykon would never have been turned into a lich to begin with, and the other struggles for the Gates would have gone remarkably differently. Because they each had unique weaknesses. Every Gate's defenses has had a faulty design. That's the point.

I'd say my argument about the level of power needed to defeat each still holds despite that.


Well we don't know that about Kraagor's yet.

Except we kinda do. For all we know, it is the only one that can be solved by the good old brute force method.

[Peelee]

Which Dorukan's and Soon's wasn't, and Kraggor's isn't.
....and?

I'd say my argument about the level of power needed to defeat each still holds despite that.
In that case, Dorukan's was arguably the weakest, since all Xykon had to do was goad him with the spirit of his dead girlfriend. Not to mention it was the only Gate that Xykon was able to hold for weeks, if not months. The only thing that stopped Xykon and Redcloak there was time and incredibly luck on Roy's and Elan's parts.

[Metastachydium]

....and?

Dorukan's sigil was a problem to any Evil intruder; Soon's and Serini's defenses are equally hard to overcome for anyone. Lirian's measures were good for less than either of those.


In that case, Dorukan's was arguably the weakest, since all Xykon had to do was goad him with the spirit of his dead girlfriend. Not to mention it was the only Gate that Xykon was able to hold for weeks, if not months. The only thing that stopped Xykon and Redcloak there was time and incredibly luck on Roy's and Elan's parts.

Not exactly. He had to hold it for weeks, if not months, because he could not get through the sigil. The only reason why he (and Redcloak) almost succeeded was hiring Nale for a different job, Nale figuring it out while working on a side project (rather than the assignment he was given) and Xykon overhearing that. After weeks, if not months.

[Peelee]

Dorukan's sigil was a problem to any Evil intruder
Mind-affecting spells are plentiful. Xykon and Redcloak just didn't know about it. Once they found out, they would have able to overcome it quite easily. Similar to how they didn't know about Lirian's defenses but were able to overcome them once they found out and had to deal with it.

Soon's and Serini's defenses are equally hard to overcome for anyone. Lirian's measures were good for less than either of those.
Soon's Gate was ultimately destroyed by a person his own organization recruited. The separate assault on Azure City as a whole and the Gate in particular were also created and exacerbated by his own organization's actions. Soon's defenses effectively brought themselves down.

Serini's, from what we can tell, just requires time and someone on your own team not actively sabotaging you. For an undead and a person with a Major Artifact that slows aging down to a crawl, a timesink is a remarkably poor defense.

Not exactly. He had to hold it for weeks, if not months, because he could not get through the sigil. The only reason why he (and Redcloak) almost succeeded was hiring Nale for a different job, Nale figuring it out while working on a side project (rather than the assignment he was given) and Xykon overhearing that. After weeks, if not months.
Again, mind-affecting spells are plentiful and a timesink is a remarkably poor defense against these two people in particular, who have all the time in the world.

[dancrilis]

A single caster spliced with the soul of the most powerful Neutral Evil necromancer Nero could spare, able to cast some obscure homebrewn spell, mind you. But other than that, yeah.

... so?


Xykon capturing the city wouldn't have changed much. His low-level clerics and foot soldiers were no match for the ghost martyrs; for all we know, they could have held the throne room indefinitely.

Xykon capturing the city would have allowed the clerics to cast desecrate on the gate room (twice if as guessed it was consecrated) and that has changes the nature of the battle a lot - and the defeated ghost martyrs did not seem to be coming back - they were basically wiped out.


Well, Xykon seemed to agree that his body was done for, and he could only have grown a new one in the same throne room, where it could have been destroyed with even less effort by the same Soon.
The exact mechanics of a lich's vunurability when it is regenerating are not known within the OOTS world but in the rules unless you can touch the phylactery you can't stop the regeneration.


Also, Team Evil only managed to escape after the gem was broken. Were it not for that (and perhaps the distraction), I doubt that they could have gotten too far.
You have panels 11 and 12 backwards - Xykon was escaping before Miko broke the gate and Soon did not get an Attack of Opportunity to finish him off (probably because he already to use it when Xykon tried to cast in panel 7).



Except we kinda do. For all we know, it is the only one that can be solved by the good old brute force method.
We don't actually know that the gate is in the tomb at all - it is likely but not confirmed, it is in theory possible for instance that the gate is buried under the tomb with no passage way to it in a small cell and that much of the current book will be the heroes and villian trying to find it and never succeeding.

[Manga Shoggoth]

This, although the MitD's efforts may be pointless, and they play into one of the ways that the gates are protected. Kragor's Gate is the only one protected by not only brute strength but also magic and trickery, and I wouldn't be shocked if it's the only Gate with some sort of emergency 'warn the others if loss is likely' system.

All the gates had a warning system (Noted here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), and I know we've seen one of the devices, but I can't find it in the archive), which is how Soon knew that Dorukan's gate had fallen. OK, if you want the exact words, they are triggered by "loss" rather than "loss is likely", but there probably isn't a great deal of time between the two.

[Peelee]

All the gates had a warning system (Noted here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), and I know we've seen one of the devices, but I can't find it in the archive)

Here ya go (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html)!

[Schroeswald]

You have panels 11 and 12 backwards - Xykon was escaping before Miko broke the gate and Soon did not get an Attack of Opportunity to finish him off (probably because he already to use it when Xykon tried to cast in panel 7).

The only reason Soon doesn’t finish him off is he hears Miko. The timeline is:
Panel 9: Soon is about to kill Xykon/Redcloak, but hears Miko.
Panel 10: Soon hears the rest of what Miko is saying and turns around.
Panel 11: Because Soon is turned around he’s not killing Redcloak and Xykon so they skedaddle.
Panel 12: Gate broken, incoming krackakoom.
Because Xykon only flees when Soon is turned around it seems to me that Miko is the cause of Xykon and Redcloak’s escape.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, their existence is common knowledge, at any rate, as any acolyte in Tinkertown would tell you, and people know to be afraid of them.

No, it is not. Exactly one acolyte knows about it, in a town chock-full of temples. If one acolyte out of hundreds even knows about vampire life cycle, it is the very definition of rare knowledge.

Grey Wolf

[Tvtyrant]

Because until Xykon the people who knew about the portals were weak. Lirian and Soon's Gates are attacked by hordes of low level Goblins which only succeed because Xykon and Redcloak are there. The flashback shows a group of cultists arguing that "Holes have a right to exist!" and the Order of the Scribble are shown to be fairly blase about the danger they face, only losing a member to the Snarl.

Their strategy and arrogance might have been different if they had faced threatening opponents, but each of them seems sure they can simply best the enemies they face and the gate wards are for longevity. Three of them fight Xykon, two 1v1, and none try to call for help before the fight starts.

Edit: Also think about the difference between Tarquin and Xykon. Tarquin appears to be the second strongest villain, owning a continent. Xykon and Redcloak would eat Tarquin's entire crew. After that we have a ancient dragon, Nale and Bozzack as threats, hardly dangerous to the Scribbles. Xykon is just all out of proportion to the normal world's threats.

[Peelee]

No, it is not. Exactly one acolyte knows about it, in a town chock-full of temples. If one acolyte out of hundreds even knows about vampire life cycle, it is the very definition of rare knowledge.

Grey Wolf

I'm actually not so sure about that. Knowledge that a vampire can exist is certainly different than knowledge of how a vampire works, for example.

Of course, if powerful, intelligent undead are also very rare (which we have ample indication to believe), then it doesn't matter how common knowledge that they can exist is. After all, great wyrm dragons exist, but it's not like Soon's Gate was built to defend against a Great Wyrm which could just fly on in and take out the tower with the Gate with no warning whatsoever. Gates not being built to specifically ward against incredibly rare monsters is hardly as staggering as Metastachydium seems to be making it out to be.

[hroþila]

The thing with Lirian's Gate is that it wasn't only weak against undead magic users, but also against any non-magic users at all. It didn't look like her non-epic defenses would have been able to stand against an army of mooks (or at least I get the impression that Redcloak's forces weren't particularly numerous that day).

[Peelee]

The thing with Lirian's Gate is that it wasn't only weak against undead magic users, but also against any non-magic users at all. It didn't look like her non-epic defenses would have been able to stand against an army of mooks (or at least I get the impression that Redcloak's forces weren't particularly numerous that day).

It didn't look like Girard's non-epic defenses would have been able to stand against Tarquin's army either. Frankly, I would be surprised if any of the Gates were designed with the question "what if an army tries to take it" in mind.

[dancrilis]

The only reason Soon doesn’t finish him off is he hears Miko. The timeline is:
Panel 9: Soon is about to kill Xykon/Redcloak, but hears Miko.
Panel 10: Soon hears the rest of what Miko is saying and turns around.
Panel 11: Because Soon is turned around he’s not killing Redcloak and Xykon so they skedaddle.
Panel 12: Gate broken, incoming krackakoom.
Because Xykon only flees when Soon is turned around it seems to me that Miko is the cause of Xykon and Redcloak’s escape.

That may be true if you accept that the Epic Paladin with decades of combat experience got distracted in combat with the Epic Lich Sorcerer by mundane volume talking and failed to end the threat to the world due to that.

A different intrepration is:
Panel 6: Soon's turn attacks Redcloak.
Panel 7: Xykon's turn tries to cast but Soon hits with his AOO.
Panel 8: Still Xykon's turn talking is a free action.
Panel 9: Still Xykon's turn nothing happens.
Panel 10: Still Xykon's turn nothing happens (that we know of relating to the three).
Panel 11: Xykon uses a free action to draw Redcloak and a move action to move away, Soon cannot do anything because he already used his AOO in panel 7.
Panel 12: Gate broken, incoming krackakoom.

The only thing dubious there is whether Xykon can draw Redcloak (I think he probably can) - either way if Soon had an AOO ready when Xykon moved he could have used it in panel 10/11 when Xykon began to move so either he didn't have it, it failed to finish off the Lich or he missed like in Panel 1 (and as such failed to finish off the Lich).

[hroþila]

It didn't look like Girard's non-epic defenses would have been able to stand against Tarquin's army either. Frankly, I would be surprised if any of the Gates were designed with the question "what if an army tries to take it" in mind.
There's several differences, but a major one might be that Girard's Gate was not out in the open.
Anyway, I think it didn't actually have any epic defenses at all other than Girard himself while he was alive. It's hard to say what the defenses could have done because many or even most of them had disappeared by the time we got there. By contrast, we saw Lirian's Gate at full capacity, being defended with everything Lirian had.

[Tvtyrant]

The thing with Lirian's Gate is that it wasn't only weak against undead magic users, but also against any non-magic users at all. It didn't look like her non-epic defenses would have been able to stand against an army of mooks (or at least I get the impression that Redcloak's forces weren't particularly numerous that day).

I believe Lirian was what made it work. An Epic Druid can tank an army, heck the OotS had a hard time with a single 9th level summon. All of the gate defenses except Kragor's amount to a holding action until the epic level defender deals with it personally.

Examples: Shadow Terrain makes a mile radius area of forest into a giant entangle effect with rainstorms and treants. Epidemic forces a chain reaction fort save or get a disease, with Blinding Sickness it blinds the entire army in a minute. Elemental Swarm makes a three hour duration swarm of elementals, which with Air Elementals turning into tornadoes can torch an army, an Elemental Monolith of Air can probably kill the entire army itself as a tornado.

[Peelee]

There's several differences, but a major one might be that Girard's Gate was not out in the open.
Doesn't seem like that mattered all that much (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html).

Anyway, I think it didn't actually have any epic defenses at all other than Girard himself while he was alive.
Disregarding the final hallway so easily?

[dancrilis]

Disregarding the final hallway so easily?

I believe that was merely 9th level rather then Epic.


It's not Epic, it's simply a 9th-level illusion—since there aren't many 9th-level illusions in core, there's conceptual room for one that is pretty heavy-hitting that would still be way above anything Eugene ever tried. My closest rules-based analogy was Microcosm, which is a 9th level psionic power. This spell doesn't seem to have a hit point limit, but it does offer a possible means of escape through internal realization. Because, you know, story.

I don't see Girard as having taken the Epic Spellcasting feat, simply because that was more Dorukan's shtick. And as a multi-class ranger/sorcerer, he would have gotten access to it later and he's not really the type to spend all his time studying (when he could be out "recruiting" his defensive team). But I don't think it's necessary for it to be explicitly Epic to be "really powerful." We're getting to the point where the difference between the high-level OOTS and the low-epic Order of the Scribble is mostly one of degrees anyway.

[Metastachydium]

Mind-affecting spells are plentiful. Xykon and Redcloak just didn't know about it. Once they found out, they would have able to overcome it quite easily. Similar to how they didn't know about Lirian's defenses but were able to overcome them once they found out and had to deal with it.

It's not quite the same thing. Unlike Lirian's virus, the sigil is not an active effect. It's a bit more difficult to tell what it does and how it does it.


Soon's Gate was ultimately destroyed by a person his own organization recruited. The separate assault on Azure City as a whole and the Gate in particular were also created and exacerbated by his own organization's actions. Soon's defenses effectively brought themselves down.

I see. So „Xykon did not succeed at Dorukan's because Roy and Elan got lucky” is an argument, but ”Soon's Gate fell because the Guard got unlucky” isn't (Miko had issues, but were it not for V blowing up his prison by accident, Belkar would not have broken loose and would not have had reason to skip town; were he not looking for a good way to skip town, he wouldn't have ensured Roy will hire him; were he not hired, the Order would have had Good and Neutral members only; were it so, Miko would have been much less suspicious of them; in which case she likely would not have gone so far as killing her liege for conspiring with them; in which case things would have turned out otherwise.). It's not Soon's fault that Miko went rogue, and not the Guard's fault, either. Also, Redcloak's grudge against the Guargd is also irrelevant. He would have been less enthusiastic, in a way, about the prospect of seizing Soon's Gate were it not for the Guard's past misdeeds, but he would have tried to seize it anyway because it is a Gate.


Serini's, from what we can tell, just requires time and someone on your own team not actively sabotaging you. For an undead and a person with a Major Artifact that slows aging down to a crawl, a timesink is a remarkably poor defense.

Yup. Like I mentioned (in response to dancrilis), I also think that could become an issue. Dancrilis is, however, probably right that at this point we cannot be absolutely certain there is no catch in that.


Again, mind-affecting spells are plentiful and a timesink is a remarkably poor defense against these two people in particular, who have all the time in the world.

It's not a brute force timesink in the sense Kraagor's Gate seems to be one. It's a puzzle. It takes a little more than just time to solve it: two Evil people have to kind of understand the mindset of a Good wizard to get past it.


... so?

Uncommon or not, people in Stickverse know that liches, vampires and the like exist, and know one when they see one, invariably. Not warding the Gate against attacks by powerful undead creatures is not by any means the same thing as not foreseeing that some caster can use an obscure homebrewn spell only one (now dead) person ever knew to cast on someone they didn't even know to have been their relative, and not making arrangements to prevent that. I mean, they were a secret society. Few knew they even exist, fewer yet knew where they are, and none other than them knew their numbers and the fact that they were all related. Lirian's sloppiness is a stupid mistake, the draketooths' deaths, on the other hand, resulted from their (forgivable) lack of omniscience.


Xykon capturing the city would have allowed the clerics to cast desecrate on the gate room (twice if as guessed it was consecrated) and that has changes the nature of the battle a lot

Hm. I don't quite happen to know enough about D&D mechanic s in general and the mechanics of being a ghost martyr in particular to know if that would have solved their issues. Could you elaborate?
(Anyhow, I'd assume that the living members of the Guard would have held their ground against the low-level grunts well enough to prompt Xykon and Redcloak to enter the fray (or, at latest, they would have gotten themselves involved by neccessity once the martyrs started to grind up their hapless forcess); if they would have been both in the room when the martyrs attack, and they would have been killed, the army could have done precious little about the Gate for a while.)


and the defeated ghost martyrs did not seem to be coming back - they were basically wiped out.

Not Soon, the real problem, though.


The exact mechanics of a lich's vunurability when it is regenerating are not known within the OOTS world but in the rules unless you can touch the phylactery you can't stop the regeneration.

Soon seems to know fairly well how liches and their phylacteries work (v. panel no. 2) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html).



You have panels 11 and 12 backwards - Xykon was escaping before Miko broke the gate and Soon did not get an Attack of Opportunity to finish him off (probably because he already to use it when Xykon tried to cast in panel 7).

Xykon and Redcloak were both in a terrible shape. Were it not for Miko destroying the Gate, it's a fair guess, to say the least, that he could have caught up with them before they can exit the room.



We don't actually know that the gate is in the tomb at all - it is likely but not confirmed, it is in theory possible for instance that the gate is buried under the tomb with no passage way to it in a small cell and that much of the current book will be the heroes and villian trying to find it and never succeeding.

Granted. We'll see how that works out, then.

[hroþila]

I believe Lirian was what made it work. An Epic Druid can tank an army, heck the OotS had a hard time with a single 9th level summon. All of the gate defenses except Kragor's amount to a holding action until the epic level defender deals with it personally.
True to an extent, but the nature of Lirian's Gate made it easy to keep Lirian away from the rift, making it extremely vulnerable to Redcloak just casually walking up to it.

Doesn't seem like that mattered all that much (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html).
I'm not sure what you mean by that. If it's that once you blow up the whole pyramid it doesn't matter that there was a pyramid, then you'd be correct, but for that to be a factor you'd need someone to locate the pyramid first and for the Draketooths to not be all dead to dispose of any scouting parties lucky enough to stumble upon the pyramid. And even if the pyramid wasn't cloaked, it would still serve as a fortress of sorts, which is an obvious advantage against an army.

[Metastachydium]

Doesn't seem like that mattered all that much (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html).

Disregarding the final hallway so easily?

It's easy to march on something once you know where it is (which Tarquin didn't until Nale and the Order have found it for him).
Also, high level psions seem to be even more rare in the setting than vampires (heck, Redcloak wasn't even sure at some point if psionics is a thing in their universe or not).

[Peelee]

It's not quite the same thing. Unlike Lirian's virus, the sigil is not an active effect. It's a bit more difficult to tell what it does and how it does it.
It's not; I doubt they would have figured out how Lirian accomplished it at all if she hadn't told them.

Yup. Like I mentioned (in response to dancrilis), I also think that could become an issue. Dancrilis is, however, probably right that at this point we cannot be absolutely certain there is no catch in that.
I agree, but until that catch is known I have no problem standing by it. I fully expect to change my view if the catch changes things.

It's not a brute force timesink in the sense Kraagor's Gate seems to be one. It's a puzzle. It takes a little more than just time to solve it: two Evil people have to kind of understand the mindset of a Good wizard to get past it.
The same two Evil people who understood the mindset of Good paladins (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html)?

Uncommon or not, people in Stickverse know that liches, vampires and the like exist, and know one when they see one, invariably. Not warding the Gate against attacks by powerful undead creatures is not by any means the same thing as not foreseeing that some caster can use an obscure homebrewn spell only one (now dead) person ever knew to cast on someone they didn't even know to have been their relative, and not making arrangements to prevent that. I mean, they were a secret society. Few knew they even exist, fewer yet knew where they are, and none other than them knew their numbers and the fact that they were all related. Lirian's sloppiness is a stupid mistake
No more stupid than Soon not warding his tower against a Great Wyrm dragon. Which is to say, not stupid at all.

It's easy to march on something once you know where it is (which Tarquin didn't until Nale and the Order have found it for him).
Why, it's almost as if all the Gates had "security through obscurity" as an additional measure.

[Fyraltari]

Soon very nearly destroyed his body, very nearly killed Redcloak, and very nearly secured the phylactery and his ultimately failing to do so was no merit of Team Evil and no fault of his own, so I'd say he'd be our winner.

I disagree, Soon's belief was that "only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable" and so his defenses consisted of the Sapphire Guard both in life and in death. However that very same belief in their infallibility (plus some classism on Soon's part in hiring only nobles) is what corrupted them and caused them to fail in three different ways:

1) Rather than stay focused on what should have been a single-target strike against the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, the SG embarked in an extermination campaign, and in so doing, created the the main threat to the safety of all Gates.

2) In their desire to appear to be ideal paladins they negelected to capture their ennemy's main asset (the Mantle) so they can humblebrag about it.

3) Miko crippled the defenses of the City and thrusted the leadership of the gaurd to an inexperienced leader in a time of crisis, and later destroyed Soon's Gate even though she was part of its defenses.


Because they were so confident in their "unbreakable honor" they never stopped to consider what the hell they were doing and wether they could be wrong until O-Chul and Shojo reformed them but by then the damage was already done.

[Metastachydium]

It's not; I doubt they would have figured out how Lirian accomplished it at all if she hadn't told them.

I wonder. That's anyone's guess, really, but they would have had a chance knowing their opoonent is a nature-loving hippie, so it's likely some nature-based trick.


The same two Evil people who understood the mindset of Good paladins (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html)?

Please. That was more of a Lawful-Chaotic duo understanding the mindset of a bunch of incredibly stiff Lawful people („a ruse that relies on the target's innate acceptance of the rules presented to him”, in other words, to quote Haley).


No more stupid than Soon not warding his tower against a Great Wyrm dragon. Which is to say, not stupid at all.

You mean something that, unlike undead (and, as others suggested, non-magical) threats, may or may not even exist in the setting?


Why, it's almost as if all the Gates had "security through obscurity" as an additional measure.

Mhm. Except Lirian's, who tied hers to some trees and called it a day.


I disagree, Soon's belief was that "only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable" and so his defenses consisted of the Sapphire Guard both in life and in death. However that very same belief in their infallibility (plus some classism on Soon's part in hiring only nobles) is what corrupted them and caused them to fail in three different ways:

1) Rather than stay focused on what should have been a single-target strike against the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, the SG embarked in an extermination campaign, and in so doing, created the the main threat to the safety of all Gates.

2) In their desire to appear to be ideal paladins they negelected to capture their ennemy's main asset (the Mantle) so they can humblebrag about it.

3) Miko crippled the defenses of the City and thrusted the leadership of the gaurd to an inexperienced leader in a time of crisis, and later destroyed Soon's Gate even though she was part of its defenses.


Because they were so confident in their "unbreakable honor" they never stopped to consider what the hell they were doing and wether they could be wrong until O-Chul and Shojo reformed them but by then the damage was already done.

1. Granted, they wer massive jerks and many goblins have reason enough to hate them as fiercely as it gets. However, as far as we know, the Mantle was created not long after D. and L. finished sealing the first Rift, amd at any rate, long before the Guard was established and long before the Guard began to go on crusades (both of which happened after the Scribblers disbanded themselves).
2. I'm yet to read Good Deeds, so I have no answer for that.
3.„Miko had issues, but

were it not for V blowing up his prison by accident, Belkar would not have broken loose and would not have had reason to skip town; were he not looking for a good way to skip town, he wouldn't have ensured Roy will hire him; were he not hired, the Order would have had Good and Neutral members only; were it so, Miko would have been much less suspicious of them; in which case she likely would not have gone so far as killing her liege for conspiring with them; in which case things would have turned out otherwise.
). It's not Soon's fault that Miko went rogue, and not the Guard's fault, either.”

[Peelee]

I wonder. That's anyone's guess, really, but they would have had a chance knowing their opoonent is a nature-loving hippie, so it's likely some nature-based trick.
So you want to both argue that they could not understand the mindset of one of the Scribblers they did not share the mindset of, but could understand the mindset of another of the Scribblers they did not share the mindset of? That's certainly a bold strategy, I'll give you that.

The runes were purely magical - Reddie and Xykon are equipped to understand pure magic. Neither of them have many, if any, demonstrated skillpoints in Medicine or Knowledge (Nature), however, so it is pretty unlikely they would figure out why Xykon lost his powers, especially since Redcloak didn't, without being explicitly told why.

Please. That was more of a Lawful-Chaotic duo understanding the mindset of a bunch of incredibly stiff Lawful people („a ruse that relies on the target's innate acceptance of the rules presented to him”, in other words, to quote Haley).
Let's take a Lawful view - would Redcloak accept the terms presented to him immediately by a Devil, without suspecting something? Heck, Redcloak didn't even accepting the terms of a Lawful dwarf without suspecting something a few strips ago.

This is not a strictly Lawful issue.

You mean something that, unlike undead (and, as others suggested, non-magical) threats, may or may not even exist in the setting?
Not at all. I'm saying that powerful, free-willed undead, like Great Wyrm dragons, are rare in this setting. I believe I have been very clear on this point.

Mhm. Except Lirian's, who tied hers to some trees and called it a day.
You mean the Gate that Redcloak and Xykon wouldn't even have known was there if some other goblin hadn't told his god?

Imean, that was your argument against Tarkin's army, right? He didn't find it himself so it doesn't count?

[Tvtyrant]

True to an extent, but the nature of Lirian's Gate made it easy to keep Lirian away from the rift, making it extremely vulnerable to Redcloak just casually walking up to it.


Absolutely, it did not work. We know it didn't work. However it's the why that matters here; Lirian's defenses would have worked if not faced by an out of settingly strong Lich and an army they had not anticipated working together. Her forces were enough to guard the gate while she dealt with major threats or vice versa, except they faced two major threats at once including once.

Lirian was quite right that the largest threat was a high power caster so she built a macguffin for it, then got beaten because Xykon became a Lich (which no one else knows about but Redcloak), was a higher level character then anyone else in the setting, and had an army.

Edit: Static defenses are also not meant to win but to slow enemies. If Xykon had been met by all of the Scribbles this would not be a series, but he wasn't because they had made monumentally bad decisions. Again, none of them call to the others for assistance, even Dorukan doesn't pop in to help.

[Nail]

Level scaling?

[Metastachydium]

The runes were purely magical - Reddie and Xykon are equipped to understand pure magic. Neither of them have many, if any, demonstrated skillpoints in Medicine or Knowledge (Nature), however, so it is pretty unlikely they would figure out why Xykon lost his powers, especially since Redcloak didn't, without being explicitly told why.

Mhm. I suppose that's why throwing live goblins on it was the best strategy of trying to understand their nature they could come up with in all that time.


Let's take a Lawful view - would Redcloak accept the terms presented to him immediately by a Devil, without suspecting something? Heck, Redcloak didn't even accepting the terms of a Lawful dwarf without suspecting something a few strips ago.

This is not a strictly Lawful issue.

This is a Lawful issue. Redcloak seems to have taken Improved Paranoia somewhere down the line, so I don't think he's the best example you can come up with here. HIs (presumably mostly) Lawful Evil/Neutral hobgoblin minions would readily accept the terms presented (if accepting as a given that their (at that point) openly racist Supreme Leader's orders must needs be the best course of action because they come from an authority figure is anything to go by).


Not at all. I'm saying that powerful, free-willed undead, like Great Wyrm dragons, are rare in this setting. I believe I have been very clear on this point.

Like I said, they are not quite so uncommon that one would not expect them to show up somewhere important (mind you, this universe runs on narrativ rules, and its inhabitants are aware of that). Also, necromancy is a well-known, widespread form of magic in the setting. Even Julia was taught necromancy in her school. A necromancer with well applied undead minions (including potentially powerful ones: Redcloak was 16th level (far from epic) when he created three free-willed undead lieutenants for himself during the course of a single day) controlled remotely can be quite a threat in and on itself and that one of these would want to assault a Gate is not quite as absurdly improbable as you'd seem to think.


You mean the Gate that Redcloak and Xykon wouldn't even have known was there if some other goblin hadn't told his god?

I mean, that was your argument against Tarquin's army, right? He didn't find it himself so it doesn't count?

It was mostly „hidden” by the fact that very few know about the Gates in the first place. Lirian did not go the extra mile to really hide it. I mean, Soon's Gate was basically disguised as a pretty ornament on a throne. Girard's Gate was hidden in a lead-lined pillar that was hidden in a pyramid choke full of illusions that was hidden by further illusions in a hidden valley hidden in the middle of a canyon somewhere in a desert.
Lirian tied her Gate which looked liked a Gate to some trees.

[KorvinStarmast]

And one of those silly rules or tropes in D&D is that if a party of adventurers runs into a group of monsters, it's somehow a "level-appropriate encounter". Even if logically it makes little sense. Heh, in old school D&D one learned that "the party that fights and runs away may live to fight another day" ... but I digress.

For an undead and a person with a Major Artifact that slows aging down to a crawl, a timesink is a remarkably poor defense. Looks like Xykon and RC are doing an epic version of Take 20 at Monster Hollow ...

Xykon is just all out of proportion to the normal world's threats. Yes. And even he's a chump compared to the Snarl being let loose.
Knowledge that a vampire can exist is certainly different than knowledge of how a vampire works, for example. Same with Dark Matter.

[Tvtyrant]

Yes. And even he's a chump compared to the Snarl being let loose.

Well yeah, they aren't playing the same game. Xykon is like a guy a few weight classes getting to fight down without penalty, the SNARL is like a guy with a gun getting to use it in a boxing match.

[Ariko]

Lirian's defenses seemed to prioritize making the gate un-capturable as it would require keeping the treants alive and immobilized before they could act. Though I imagine TE could have pulled that off. I guess the thought was that by the time a powerful threat bypassed the other defenses, the treants were supposed to break the gate, maybe.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Here ya go (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html)!

Ah! Thank you!

[JBiddles]

Xykon and Redcloak probably cleared out most of the worst defences, but more importantly: Dorukan's Gate was secure because it had an Epic Wizard sitting on it.

Dorukan's Gate was only compromised because he flew into a panic and went out to throw himself at Xykon. If he'd kept his head, he could have cast Limited Wish for a Death Ward and ruined Xykon's whole day. Hell, he could have kicked back and researched Dorukan's Epic Smite Lich or something.

The Gates tend to fail because of a flaw in their guardians. Dorukan's was that for all his intelligence, he couldn't think straight when emotionally provoked.

[Emanick]

Xykon and Redcloak probably cleared out most of the worst defences, but more importantly: Dorukan's Gate was secure because it had an Epic Wizard sitting on it.

Dorukan's Gate was only compromised because he flew into a panic and went out to throw himself at Xykon. If he'd kept his head, he could have cast Limited Wish for a Death Ward and ruined Xykon's whole day. Hell, he could have kicked back and researched Dorukan's Epic Smite Lich or something.

The Gates tend to fail because of a flaw in their guardians. Dorukan's was that for all his intelligence, he couldn't think straight when emotionally provoked.

Limited Wish might have just killed Dorukan via aging, allowing Xykon to win by default.

[Peelee]

Limited Wish might have just killed Dorukan via aging, allowing Xykon to win by default.

To my knowledge, Limited Wish doesn't have any aging effects?

[Squire Doodad]

Dorukan's Gate was only compromised because he flew into a panic and went out to throw himself at Xykon. If he'd kept his head, he could have cast Limited Wish for a Death Ward and ruined Xykon's whole day. Hell, he could have kicked back and researched Dorukan's Epic Smite Lich or something.

"Who knew Liches were weak to specially calibrated point blank magical annihilation?"

[Metastachydium]

Lirian's defenses seemed to prioritize making the gate un-capturable as it would require keeping the treants alive and immobilized before they could act. Though I imagine TE could have pulled that off. I guess the thought was that by the time a powerful threat bypassed the other defenses, the treants were supposed to break the gate, maybe.

Which is weird, since when Lirian's Gate was set up, Lirian had no reason to believe that their spell can be corrupted via something like the Dark One's Ritual (and I'd assume that they would have come up with some other way of sealing the Rifts were they to realize that Gates are unsafe), and therefore one would think that her priority should have been keeping the Rift sealed.

[hroþila]

Personally I don't think Dorukan lost his head or anything. He just took a calculated risk (it was legitimately the only way he could get Lirian back for certain) and lost.

[mjasghar]

One aspect of the Gates being vulnerable is they ARE GATES
As I’ve said elsewhere - they aren’t meant to be seals on the rifts - they are meant to be Gates to the other world whilst also sealing the Snarl away. As the Giant has said, the Gates are a connection from the prison plane to the material world. They exist to access that plane without letting the Snarl out.

[Peelee]

One aspect of the Gates being vulnerable is they ARE GATES
As I’ve said elsewhere - they aren’t meant to be seals on the rifts - they are meant to be Gates to the other world whilst also sealing the Snarl away. As the Giant has said, the Gates are a connection from the prison plane to the material world. They exist to access that plane without letting the Snarl out.

That doesn't sound right.

The gem reinforces the Gate; the gem is NOT the Gate, and the Gate is not the seal, and the seal is not the rift. The gem is the deadbolt, not the lock, or the door, or the doorway. The "door" is a complex spell that is not actually visible but is what Dorukan and Lirian are casting in the first panel of the second page of #276. The "lock" is the Gate, a tiny magical object that later had a throne crafted around it; it's about the size of a raisin in the case of Azure City. The "doorway" is the rift itself, and it is not really inside the gemstone, it's just that the gem (and Gate) are translucent and we can see through it (because it's a visual medium and it made it easier to understand). The gemstone is an enchanted object that further seals and reinforces the Gate; thus, the "deadbolt."

[mjasghar]

I’m referring to the quote about moving the Gates to the outer planes to kill the gods
It’s something like “it’s a connection to the prison plane. When you move it you connect the prison plane to one of the outer planes and the Snarl moves there and kills the gods in that plane. But then the evil gods will spam portals from that plane to the Dark Ones plane.”
In fact your quote also has that concept. He literally calls it a doorway - NOT a patch or anything that suggests they are sealing off the path. Yes the word seal is used but at the same time so is door and doorway. So to me that suggests they were making a door to that other world whilst stopping the Snarl using it. Sort of like those Perspex tunnels you get in sea life centres that you can walk through the bottom of the main tank.

[snowblizz]

Dorukan's Gate was only compromised because he flew into a panic and went out to throw himself at Xykon. If he'd kept his head, he could have cast Limited Wish for a Death Ward and ruined Xykon's whole day. Hell, he could have kicked back and researched Dorukan's Epic Smite Lich or something.

The Gates tend to fail because of a flaw in their guardians. Dorukan's was that for all his intelligence, he couldn't think straight when emotionally provoked.
This last part is IMO key.


Personally I don't think Dorukan lost his head or anything. He just took a calculated risk (it was legitimately the only way he could get Lirian back for certain) and lost.
I agree, in so far he wasn't panicking or something like that. The problem here is that he took the calculated risk at all, and IMO like most wizards overestimated his ability over "a mere sorceror".

He shouldn't have risked the gate, not even for Lirian and he for sure shouldn't blaze out against an lich sorceror. That is one or perhaps the fundemental flaw in Dorukan. When considering protecting gates and not things like being an emotionally balanced human being.

Every single time a wizard has though "wizards are better then sorceror's I can take him" Xykon wins. Because the wizards arne't using the strengths of a wizard and effectively playing Xykons game of strength and brute force.



On another note all the gates seem woefyull weak against actual physical harm. If we consider that the gates are needed to shore up reality Lirian's got torn apart by trees running from fire. Dorukan built a self destruct into the castle. Miko smashed through Soon's gate and Roy whacked Girard's. Most of the defences tried to protect against possession, yet all have fallen to outright destruction instead.



I’m referring to the quote about moving the Gates to the outer planes to kill the gods
I've seen no real impression that this is the case. RC and TDO may think this can happen, I question if they really know anything what they are messing about. TDO clearly isn't too well informed about what is going on since he's not talking to the other gods. Which means that everything we know about TDO's plan, RC supposedly follows and even he hasn't spoken to his god, rests on hearsay. The problem with the entire plan is, that it seems the other gods can just unmake reality before RC and Xykon could complete the ritual.

I can't remember seeing if the other gods are are even worried something like that can happen, obviously they can be blindisded, but seeing how many worlds the gods been through, I kinda suspect TSO knows less than TDO thinks of reality.

[danielxcutter]

Let's see. For the four Gates we do know about:


Lilian's Gate: This is a very much "why the heck did she not do X" situation yes, but I do think people are underselling it somewhat. Yes, undead(and constructs for that matter) are immune to her guardian virus trump card. It works on virtually everything else, though, and the few outliers can usually be ignored by the simple fact that there's an epic druid squatting in the area. Lilian is an elf, so it's not even like she'd die of old age any time soon, either. She did make a number of tactical mistakes - arguably the only reason she did so poorly against him is because the narrative wanted to show what abilities Xykon gained from his transformation - but I'd say the only really damning mistakes were blabbing about how her greatest asset worked and the existence of the other Gates.


Dorukan's Gate: The only real problem here was human error; Dorukan did manage to keep a hold on himself until Xykon literally forced his girlfriend's soul to watch her corpse get devoured. Did he make a fatal mistake? Yes. Is it that easy to ignore? Well... I'd say no, personally. As for the dungeon itself, I'd say that the Sigil was more of a last line of defense rather than the only one that mattered. Remember, Xykon's forces basically gutted the dungeon and there probably would have been guardians to warn Good-aligned people away otherwise even if Dorkuan had croaked by then.


Soon's Gate: I think the Sapphire Guard did shoot themselves in the foot by antagonizing the goblins so much when TDO clearly knew that the Gates were a thing, so even if it hadn't been Team Evil specifically there was always the risk of them invading. In a sense, it was possibly the only Gate where the most realistic option was "bring an army". That being said, it wasn't lost easily, and if Miko hadn't destroyed the gem with the Gate in it then Soon would have finished the two biggest threats. And unless you have magical weapons you can't even hurt him. That being said, if the ghost-paladins can't return after getting "turned", then the defenses would have been seriously weakened and the city would still have been in ruins whether or not Miko had blown up the Gate. Still, the flaws it did have aren't exactly ones that could really be fixed easily and/or aren't exactly obvious ones.


Girard's Gate: I'll be blunt; calling this one a bust because the Draketooths were wiped out by Familicide is like calling a snow fort a failure because it can't stand multiple point-blank tactical nuke strikes. It was actually hidden better than any of the other Gates except maybe Soon's, and it had a large number of high-level sorcerers as defenders. While undead can ignore a lot of some of the stronger illusion spells and True Seeing is an extremely efficient counter, it's still a bit of a catch-22. An army will probably not have the resources to give enough people True Seeing, and smaller groups are unlikely to have as much raw spellcasting power. Remember, illusions were only the main class of abilities they could use, so even if half the spells they knew were illusions they could still spontaneously cast the other half just fine, and that's assuming that your protections don't get dispelled.


Honestly, the biggest reasons the Gates have fallen could be said to be narrative reasons rather than inherent flaws:


Lilian used the forces of nature to defend her Gate; she was killed by Xykon(undead) the Gate was accidentally destroyed by Redcloak(unnatural lifespan extension.


Dorkuan trusted in his wizardry and the Sigil of Pure Heart; he was killed by Xykon(a sorcerer) and his Gate was destroyed by Elan(Good-aligned but dumb).


Soon's Gate was protected by the army of Azure City and the Sapphire Guard; the city fell to a stronger army and the Gate was destroyed by Miko, a fallen paladin - and if Redcloak(wronged by the Guard) hadn't turned all the oathspirits, she probably wouldn't have gone straight for the gem either).


Girard protected his Gate with his family of sorcerers and deception; the family was wiped out by Familicide and Roy saw through his bluff simply because of cross-class ranks in Knowledge(engineering and architecture).