Engender(queer)ing my Vaarsuvian Visions.

[Luna_Mayflower]

After consulting an Haruspex, I have a new theory!

Vaarsuvius is on the autisitc spectrum.

I think this is a brilliant addition to Rick Burlew's respectful and representative cast of characters!

Of course, we could all tell from early on that Elan is represents those who are low-functioning autistic, but I do believe V is instead a high-functioning autistic character.

My niece has Aspergers and she absolutely loves V. We often talk about the newest comics when I see her and she tells me about a cool moment she liked. She said that it makes her really happy that someone like her is able to have such good friends and be really useful and powerful. :smallsmile:

What do you people think?

[Keltest]

Does it count as an addition to the cast when they were in page 1, panel 1? Heck, if you read left to right, theyre also the very first character in panel 1.

[KorvinStarmast]

Does it count as an addition to the cast when they were in page 1, panel 1? Heck, if you read left to right, theyre also the very first character in panel 1. While I chuckled at your reply, if we go back to the prequels and specifically On The Origin of the PCs, the first two members of the Order were Roy and Durkon. Roy then recruited the others (with Belkar beating out the Monk as the last member) so you could stretch that into "V being an addition to the Order" but my point may fall down on this little detail:

It wasn't until all six of them were doing things together that the (retcon) moment arrived wherein we learn how the name of the Order came about. If the Order wasn't the Order until after that moment, then V can't have been "an addition" but was rather "core" to the Order.

OK, that's enough hair splitting for a while.

As to Rich having explicitly chosen to include V to offer representation to those on the spectrum Luna refers to, I don't think I've seen him comment on that, but the banana may have.

[Luna_Mayflower]

Does it count as an addition to the cast when they were in page 1, panel 1? Heck, if you read left to right, theyre also the very first character in panel 1.

Oh perhaps my golden words weren't written correctly. I meant that the revelation to V's high functioning autism was an addition, not the character.

[Dion]

After consulting an Haruspex...

You’re not allowed to say auspicious. That’s a bird word.

[Fyraltari]

After consulting an Haruspex

Even seers are subcontracting these days...

[Chronos]

Vaarsuvius may well be on the autistic spectrum (to the extent that the term "on the autistic spectrum" is even meaningful). But Elan? Whatever Elan is, it definitely, absolutely, is not autism. Elan is "on the autistic spectrum" in the same sense that gamma rays are "on the radio spectrum".

[Luna_Mayflower]

You’re not allowed to say auspicious. That’s a bird word.

Go away, please.


Even seers are subcontracting these days...

Not so much. There is a subtle difference between a Prophet and an Haruspex.


Vaarsuvius may well be on the autistic spectrum (to the extent that the term "on the autistic spectrum" is even meaningful). But Elan? Whatever Elan is, it definitely, absolutely, is not autism. Elan is "on the autistic spectrum" in the same sense that gamma rays are "on the radio spectrum".

What are you even going on about? :smallyuk:

[Fyraltari]

Not so much. There is a subtle difference between a Prophet and an Haruspex.

Methodology, as I understand it. But you're still having somebody else do your work for you.

[Emanick]

This is a very interesting topic to me, since not only do I have Asperger's, but I work as a comedian in a group called Asperger's Are Us, so I inevitably get involved in countless discussions with members of the autistic community about autism and representation.

It has never occurred to me to consider V autistic. S/he has some of the stereotypical traits associated with high-functioning autism, such as hyperfocusing on a single task, relatively poor theory of mind, high intelligence, a tendency to lose track of time when wrapped up in an engrossing project (although V attributes this to hir "elven insensitivity to the flow of time," so perhaps that's a red herring), and unusual speech patterns and mannerisms. I can definitely see why somebody might ping V as autistic. That said, s/he somehow still doesn't really come off as autistic character to me, for reasons I'm having a hard time putting into words. Maybe it's hir lack of sensory issues, or maybe it's just the fact that I hadn't really considered the matter before. I dunno, I'll have to give it some thought.

It does seem clear that V is not deliberately written as autistic. Rich has said that he would not consider portraying a character with "a mental handicap that does not affect their intelligence," (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=16701442&postcount=42) with high-functioning autism given as an example (by the question-asker, not Rich himself). Personally, I don't consider high-functioning autism a mental handicap; autism is simply a neurodivergent state, and one that has enough advantages that I don't consider it to be categorically a disability - although it obviously comes with disadvantages as well as advantages, particularly since society is (quite understandably) set up in such a way that it caters to the type of brain that the overwhelming majority of people have. Still, that doesn't really affect Rich's reasoning for his decision not to portray such a character; he claims to have next to no experience with "such issues" and has next to nothing to say about them.

I have no problem with an author choosing not to represent a given community* out of a lack of familiarity with the relevant issues; I certainly don't believe that anyone has an obligation to tell a specific kind of story that s/he doesn't feel compelled to tell. It does strike me as a little weird that he feels a moral obligation to depict diverse sexualities and not neurodivergence, but hey, I'm certainly not going to complain about the diversity he has chosen to depict.

Still, autistic people, like LGBTQ+ people, are used to finding representation in characters that are not canonically considered to be part of their "group." More power to anyone who chooses to see V as a high-functioning autistic elf, I say. :smallsmile:

* It feels weird to characterize autistic people as a whole as a "community," since we're far, far too individualistic to accurately be described as such. Still, that's the kind of terminology we're using these days, I guess.

[Psyren]

It's certainly possible. Even after years of seeing their actions and reactions, I'm not certain we have enough information about V for a definitive diagnosis one way or the other, but I don't think it would hurt anything if they were either.

[Luna_Mayflower]

This is a very interesting topic to me, since not only do I have Asperger's, but I work as a comedian in a group called Asperger's Are Us, so I inevitably get involved in countless discussions with members of the autistic community about autism and representation.

It has never occurred to me to consider V autistic. S/he has some of the stereotypical traits associated with high-functioning autism, such as hyperfocusing on a single task, relatively poor theory of mind, high intelligence, a tendency to lose track of time when wrapped up in an engrossing project (although V attributes this to hir "elven insensitivity to the flow of time," so perhaps that's a red herring), and unusual speech patterns and mannerisms. I can definitely see why somebody might ping V as autistic. That said, s/he somehow still doesn't really come off as autistic character to me, for reasons I'm having a hard time putting into words. Maybe it's hir lack of sensory issues, or maybe it's just the fact that I hadn't really considered the matter before. I dunno, I'll have to give it some thought.

It does seem clear that V is not deliberately written as autistic. Rich has said that he would not consider portraying a character with "a mental handicap that does not affect their intelligence," (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=16701442&postcount=42) with high-functioning autism given as an example (by the question-asker, not Rich himself). Personally, I don't consider high-functioning autism a mental handicap; autism is simply a neurodivergent state, and one that has enough advantages that I don't consider it to be categorically a disability - although it obviously comes with disadvantages as well as advantages, particularly since society is (quite understandably) set up in such a way that it caters to the type of brain that the overwhelming majority of people have. Still, that doesn't really affect Rich's reasoning for his decision not to portray such a character; he claims to have next to no experience with "such issues" and has next to nothing to say about them.

I have no problem with an author choosing not to represent a given community* out of a lack of familiarity with the relevant issues; I certainly don't believe that anyone has an obligation to tell a specific kind of story that s/he doesn't feel compelled to tell. It does strike me as a little weird that he feels a moral obligation to depict diverse sexualities and not neurodivergence, but hey, I'm certainly not going to complain about the diversity he has chosen to depict.

Still, autistic people, like LGBTQ+ people, are used to finding representation in characters that are not canonically considered to be part of their "group." More power to anyone who chooses to see V as a high-functioning autistic elf, I say. :smallsmile:

* It feels weird to characterize autistic people as a whole as a "community," since we're far, far too individualistic to accurately be described as such. Still, that's the kind of terminology we're using these days, I guess.

Hmm, but that was seven years ago. Perhaps Rick's thoughts have shifted somewhat?

[tawnyterror]

As an autistic person I have always very much related to aspects of Vaarsuvius- which is one of the main reasons why I've been following this comic as long as I have! I don't believe this portrayal is international, though I do believe V is a character with mannerisms inspired by that of characters in other media who are more intentionally coded.

On the topic of Elan, I don't think he's autistic (nor low-functioning)- if anything he seems more like he would have ADHD. (supported partially by the gag about his medication in On The Origin- though that may just be Roy's opinion)

[navpirx]

Only Vaarsuvius? Isn't the entire Order conceived as a representation of the spectrum? Especially Dorukan appears to be fixated on certain thoughts and ideas, going out of his way to find very painful ways to further commute with his god for example.

[Fyraltari]

I have no problem with an author choosing not to represent a given community out of a lack of familiarity with the relevant issues; I certainly don't believe that anyone has an obligation to tell a specific kind of story that s/he doesn't feel compelled to tell. It does strike me as a little weird that he feels a moral obligation to depict diverse sexualities and not neurodivergence, but hey, I'm certainly not going to complain about the diversity he has chosen to depict.

Disclaimer: I am heterosexual and neurotypical and you could fit all I know about the autism spectrum inside a miniature shoe box for diminutive mice, so if anything I wrote below is stupid or wrong, or if I unknowingly used offensive terms, I apologize in advance.

I think the thing is that, once an author uses "fantasy world" magic wand to woosh away all the prejudice, non-heterosexual people aren't different from heterosexual people except with regards to whom they'd enjoy banging or not. On the other hand, people on the spectrum don't do social interactions in the same way that neurotypical people do. And, unlike sex, it's damn near impossible to have characters in your story who don't interact with other characters. So if you are a neurotypical author who doesn't know any neurodivergent person there's a huge risk that you'll end up making your character a stereotype or just portray what their life is like wrong.

Given The Giant's self professed bad track records when it comes to trans issues, it's understandable why he wouldn't risk it.

[nespunkt]

You’re not allowed to say auspicious. That’s a bird word.

Just want to say that I understood and appreciated this reference.

~

On the topic of whether V is autistic or not: I think if you want to read them that way, it works quite well. Personally, I am a little bit wary of applying real-world mappings onto fictional characters if they're not explicitly meant to adhere to such mappings. For example, I try not to call a character "straight" if they're written in a medieval setting before heterosexuality was a category people placed themselves in.

Does that make sense? Maybe not. Maybe like this: I find it more helpful to talk about the characters as though they might help exemplify certain traits or behaviours because they're simply part of the more or less universal human(oid) condition.

[Luna_Mayflower]

Methodology, as I understand it. But you're still having somebody else do your work for you.

Regardless, we both agree that the OOTS representation of psychics is absolutely appalling. Who'd want to be Laurin!


Given The Giant's self professed bad track records when it comes to trans issues, it's understandable why he wouldn't risk it.

The belt? Pfft, that's not even the worst of it. Just you wait until strip number 1298.

[Metastachydium]

Regardless, we both agree that the OOTS representation of psychics is absolutely appalling. Who'd want to be Laurin!


What about the blue on Redcloak's payroll and the Little Psion that Could?

[tawnyterror]

The belt? Pfft, that's not even the worst of it. Just you wait until strip number 1298.

I feel like there's a joke or reference within this strip number that I don't get and it has been bothering me all morning!

[Luna_Mayflower]

What about the blue on Redcloak's payroll and the Little Psion that Could?

The Blue was a token appearance and that Psion is utterly unacceptable!


I feel like there's a joke or reference within this strip number that I don't get and it has been bothering me all morning!

I am a psychic prophet. It's kind of a big deal.

[Malloon]

While I think that it's of course perfectly possible that the Giant either intended to write Vaarsuvius as a character on the autism spectrum, or alternatively decided later to write them that way, it has happened fairly often that a character or plot point in the story of Order of the Stick was taken as an allusion to or commentary on some real-world event, concept or issue, while in fact only seeming so and not being intended by the Giant at all. As such we should remember the very real possibility during our discussion and diagnosis that however well it seems to fit, it could very easily be unintentional.

Adding to that, the question is raised of how well we can apply our concepts of mental illness and diversity, gleamed as they are from the real world, and apply them to a story where neither the origin of the people in it nor their physiology seems to be completely comparable to people from the real world, the former obviously more so than the latter, given that they do at least seem to have the same body plan as we do. Most people are patently unaware of the inner workings of our bodies, both mentally and physically, so writers generally have no issue inserting new diseases, poisons, drugs, mental illnesses and neurodivergence into a story without breaking our sense of disbelief, no matter how impossible it would be for those afflictions, traits and mixtures to exist in the real world.

And not to overlook the one last but possibly most important issue, Vaarsuvius is an elf, not a human, and has already been featured with many different physiological traits that even humans in the story have. Who's to say what merciless medical maladies the Giant has invented for this human-esque but clearly non-human race? At least we know Sphinx pox seems to affect humans, elves and halflings equally, but they in turn caught it from the cat. That is not a good basis for comparing how similar physiologies are.

At the very least we have indications that Vaarsuvius's predilections are not shared between all elves. We cannot fairly judge how much elves are prone to becoming or being like Vaarsuvius, but at the very least none of the not inconsiderable number of other elf and half-elf characters in the story share Vaarsuvius's character, especially not their verbosity. This shows their traits, while not necessarily unique, are in fact character traits and not species' traits. (Setting aside for a moment the consideration how useful the description of "species" is here.) This could indicate that Vaarsuvius is on the autism spectrum, but it could also just mean that this is how an elf can be, without a label.

If your niece strongly identifies with Vaarsuvius and is encouraged by Vaarsuvius's successes, that is a positive thing all by itself. I personally don't see the need for labelling them on top of that. If your niece identifies that Vaarsuvius is like she is, and she finds comfort, joy or motivation in that, what is there to add? The only thing I can think of is that other people on the autism spectrum might identify with Vaarsuvius as well and labelling Vaarsuvius as such might help them find the Order of the Stick when they set out to find fiction with such characters, but I don't think I would generally hold up Vaarsuvius as a character to be inspired by, given their other traits and failings. They are a great character, but not in general inspiration fodder. I say this as someone who has found inspiration in and underwent personal character development because of a speech by Xykon, of all people.

:vaarsuvius:

[Fyraltari]

Regardless, we both agree that the OOTS representation of psychics is absolutely appalling. Who'd want to be Laurin!

What about the Oracle and Sangwaan?

[Luna_Mayflower]

What about the Oracle and Sangwaan?

Oh Oracle yes! Yes like Oracle! Desire Oracle!

Sangwaan dead.

[Psyren]

By "psychic" do you mean a psionic class, or do you mean a character capable of telling the future? Because those aren't the same thing in D&D at all. Sangwaan and the Oracle are not psionic.

[Luna_Mayflower]

By "psychic" do you mean a psionic class, or do you mean a character capable of telling the future? Because those aren't the same thing in D&D at all. Sangwaan and the Oracle are not psionic.

The latter.

[137beth]

I was diagnosed with Asperger's' Syndrome back before it was reclassified as ASD. Personally, while I think V has some characteristics commonly associated with high-functioning autism, I never read them as actually having AS/ASD. I think Emanick expressed my thoughts on the matter more clearly than I can, so I'll just refer you to his post.

[CriticalFailure]

I can definitely see why they don't want to take that risk. I still don't get how the fantasy land swapping bodies magic overlaps with the experiences or lives of real life trans people. I understand even less how making fun of the nonsensical drawing of anthropomorphic creatures with breasts that is endemic to fantasy is related to it.

[Dion]

Just want to say that I understood and appreciated this reference.

On a related note, it turns out that augury and autism are not etymologically related. I secretly hoped there was some crazy 19th century theory that autism was somehow related to birds (but it turns out one is Latin and the other is Greek).

On an unrelated note, IÂ’ve always personally identified with the coldly logical folks who are disconnected from the emotions of others; the Spock archetype probably connects with a lot of us.

And, V probably pulls a lot of characterization through Spock.

[Mightymosy]

I can definitely see why they don't want to take that risk. I still don't get how the fantasy land swapping bodies magic overlaps with the experiences or lives of real life trans people. I understand even less how making fun of the nonsensical drawing of anthropomorphic creatures with breasts that is endemic to fantasy is related to it.

If you are expecting to be offended you will always find something would be my guess.

Look at Elan: Rich is making fun of people with low IQ everytime he makes an Elan joke, but since no one with low IQ reads OotS* **, THAT is minority that can safely made fun of.


No, it really doesn't make sense.


* Alternatively, people with low IQ don't realize they are the butt of jokes, and thus don't care
** Most people may be convinced they have higher than average IQ, anyway

[Psyren]

The latter.

In which case we can probably exclude Laurin; her ease of moving entire armies around suggests she's a Nomad rather than a Seer.

[ebarde]

The concept of high to low functioning is a tad hard to define in a lot of cases, mostly cause as an autistic person I think a lot of times it ends up oversimplifing some important nuances that every person has.

V and Elan are actually fairly illustrative on my point on that regard. Who would you say it's the most functioning?

You could say V, after all they're extremely knowledgeable in an area that is directly related to their chosen profession and life style. But at the same time they're pretty quick to annoyance, have a hard time relating to other people, and are often quick to dismiss things that don't directly relates to magic.

On the other hand, you could definetly also argue for Elan. Yeah he isn't that book smart, but he's fairly adapt in storytelling and music. And despite how much he annoys a lot of his teammates, he's shown to be extremely charismatic, with tons of characters instantly taking a liking to him.

Btw I'm not saying they're autisic necessarily, I just thought they were fairly good examples to illustrate my point.

[CriticalFailure]

If you are expecting to be offended you will always find something would be my guess.

Unfortunately that has been my observation with online fandom communities. It seems like people just want excuses to try to make flaming and bad behavior look legitimate and co-opt important issues to do so. And yeah, everyone thinks that they are smart.

[ebarde]

If you are expecting to be offended you will always find something would be my guess.

Look at Elan: Rich is making fun of people with low IQ everytime he makes an Elan joke, but since no one with low IQ reads OotS* **, THAT is minority that can safely made fun of.


No, it really doesn't make sense.


* Alternatively, people with low IQ don't realize they are the butt of jokes, and thus don't care
** Most people may be convinced they have higher than average IQ, anyway

I honestly think this is a bit of a weird reading of Elan's jokes, the butt of the joke isn't any group of people but rather just Elan, or more often his party members that are annoyed by his silly behavior. I also don't really think Rich particularly seems to care about IQ tests, as do most people tbh. If anything, Roy is in the receiving end of most of the funny bits with Elan.

[Mightymosy]

I honestly think this is a bit of a weird reading of Elan's jokes, the butt of the joke isn't any group of people but rather just Elan, or more often his party members that are annoyed by his silly behavior. I also don't really think Rich particularly seems to care about IQ tests, as do most people tbh. If anything, Roy is in the receiving end of most of the funny bits with Elan.

Well, no.
The group including Roy and Haley openly make fun of Elan, and that is portrayed as okay (most of thr times).
We, the readers laugh because he is so stupid and we are smart in comparison. Sure, we also laught about Roy, but Elan is the stupid one, thats just how that kind of humor works.
Honestly, i am fine with it in general, what bothers me is that low IQ people get the short end when other "minorities" are tabu to make fun of, all of a sudden.
Stand by your humor or don't, is what I am saying I guess.

Consider the Big Bang episode where the gang openly makes fun of Penny's Ex who is rather low IQ himself. Even Leonard joins in, although he should know better.

That episode is like Elan with OotS.

[Precure]

Judging by his flashbacks, Durkon seems to implied to be neurodivergent at some extent.

[Riarra]

Judging by his flashbacks, Durkon seems to implied to be neurodivergent at some extent.

Durkon trying so hard to make sure he's interpreting Roy correctly in battle (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html) really solidified my autistic headcanon for him. And I always come back to his line from OtOoPCs "He's supposed to let me finish"--he likes there to be rules and structure to help in social situations (and every situation, really). He's overly blunt and straightforward a lot, he has to actively try to be more flexible and less passive, and this bit from the BRitF commentary:

He was willing to look past her association with Nale, only to later discover that he was projecting morals onto her that she did not hold. It would be easy to chalk this up to him being gullible or too trusting, but that’s oversimplifying the matter. Durkon wants very much to be the sort of person who looks past surface qualities to see the true heart of everyone he meets. His mistake is thinking that if what he sees is bad, then what’s underneath must be good; he doesn’t consider that it might be even
worse. That makes him exactly the sort of person against whom hollow civility serves as perfect cover.

has always been really relatable to me, and feels very much like something someone who struggles with social cues would do--knowing you have trouble interpreting people, consciously trying to compensate for that, and erring on the side of assuming they're not actually as malicious as they might seem.

[PattThe]

Durkontrying so hard to make sure he's interpreting Roy correctly in battle really solidified my autistic headcanon for him. And I always come back to his line from OtOoPCs "He's supposed to let me finish"--he likes there to be rules and structure to help in social situations (and every situation, really). He's overly blunt and straightforward a lot, he has to actively try to be more flexible and less passive, and this bit from the BRitF commentary:

He was willing to look past her association with Nale, only to later discover that he was projecting morals onto her that she did not hold. It would be easy to chalk this up to him being gullible or too trusting, but that’s oversimplifying the matter. Durkon wants very much to be the sort of person who looks past surface qualities to see the true heart of everyone he meets. His mistake is thinking that if what he sees is bad, then what’s underneath must be good; he doesn’t consider that it might be even
worse. That makes him exactly the sort of person against whom hollow civility serves as perfect cover.

has always been really relatable to me, and feels very much like something someone who struggles with social cues would do--knowing you have trouble interpreting people, consciously trying to compensate for that, and erring on the side of assuming they're not actually as malicious as they might seem.

Wow.. talk about seeing something in a new light. That instantly recontextualized the scene for me. Durkon is such a deeply caring yet always obstructed individual and stands out even among other dwarves as someone who:

A, is desperate to have answers for things he sees as starkly important to understand (why his mother did the things she did, understanding roy in said battle, his utter joy over having 'a' reason he was forced out of his homeland)

B, feels emotions very VERY deeply yet is incapable or unwilling to express their complicated feelings to anyone (except inside his own mind, which is something I can empathize with- I can empathize with all of this actually. I am really happy I got to read a thread with more aspies in it, I only recently started thinking about that for myself) until they can express it in a way that works with their outward personality

C, is fixated on rules in a way that may not be based on ethics and social stigma but rather that the rules were explained to him, he understood the rules, and then he can't understand what is happening when someone doesn't follow them as seen in 0962- which to me looked a lot like a frustration rather than an anger toward the other child. Again, I am projecting hard here because I never really thought to empathize with Durkon in this way.


Durkon may be neurotypical or may indeed be neurodivergent like some of us, however there is definitely something about the way they tick aside from other dwarves that can work very well as a lens to look at one's own difficulties understanding other people.
The fact that they had their emotional arc be something completely internal (as opposed to Haley's emotional arc which was internal but dealt discretely with her relationships with others, where Durkon never had anyone seeing him let his guard down except his negative energy counterpart. Self vs self down two different avenues.) tells me that this notion of Durkon having a social issue understanding others and frustration over breaking rules..
How quickly could we compile all the times Durkon gets frustrated? I'd like to see if there's a pattern..
@Patt

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Of course, we could all tell from early on that Elan is represents those who are low-functioning autistic,


Vaarsuvius may well be on the autistic spectrum (to the extent that the term "on the autistic spectrum" is even meaningful). But Elan? Whatever Elan is, it definitely, absolutely, is not autism. Elan is "on the autistic spectrum" in the same sense that gamma rays are "on the radio spectrum".


What are you even going on about? :smallyuk:

I have to agree with Chronos here. I'm not seeing Elan as particularly autistic. I know every one of us is different, and autistic people can definitely have social skills. Heck, a friend of mine recently pegged me as a valor bard when discussing what class all of us would be. But Elan specifically does not give me an autistic vibe at all. ADHD maybe, so that's sort of connected, but so clearly autistic that we could all tell from early on? Nope, not agreeing with that. He does not give me the same sort of click as Donatello from the Ninja Turtles, Frank Martin/The Transporter and Sergeant Todd from Soldier. Who I've all headcanon'd as autistic despite any and all evidence to the contrary.

V definitely has some characteristic, but the longer I think about it, the more characters have some of the characteristics. Redcloak can be pretty autistic at times. The man has plenty of intelligence and even more wisdom yet he's single mindedly devoted to his stupid goal to the point of an obsession and in social situations he seems to very much use his intelligence and powers of analysis where most people would play by instinct. That's not unlike how I often do it.


If your niece identifies/connects with V, great! If she identifies/connects with Elan, great! But in that second case in particular I don't feel inclined to grab the DSM and start diagnosing quite yet. (And if the Giant has stated is as fact I'm probably claiming "death of the author".)

[PattThe]

. . . Redcloak can be pretty autistic at times. The man has plenty of intelligence and even more wisdom yet he's single mindedly devoted to his stupid goal to the point of an obsession and in social situations he seems to very much use his intelligence and powers of analysis where most people would play by instinct. That's not unlike how I often do it.

If it weren't for his backstory and the events directly preceding Xykon's invasion of Dorukan's temple, I'd be inclined to agree with you. However Redcloak seems dour and stuck with their decisions because of what has been lost already. I think the thing that makes RC such an evil character is that they are 100% voluntary signed on for doing everything and everything that he knows is wrong solely out of a motivation to not let their own failures be all for nothing. Honestly he is such a good case for Good in the sense that the only thing actually holding him back is psychology and him thinking he's too far gone. His life is a fallacy and evil is nothing if not a source for endless excuses, as evil is in one sense just the act of focusing only on the terrible parts of life.
However one thing does make me go back to siding with you on their spectrum-ness or otherwise neurodiverse qualities. The easiest way for Redcloak to escape their self-fulfilling prophecy would be to interact with others and expose himself to seeing other perspectives. Not being neurotypical could deeply obstruct their capability for interpersonal connections and could produce a very prominent failure to engage, which I'm pretty sure is a bright calling card for some styles of autism.

[Lemarc]

V doesn't have autism, the Giant tells us. And he has no interest in depicting anyone neurodivergent or suffering from mental illness in his comic whatsoever, for lack of experience on the subject, lack of things to say. So there's that, but completely genuinely I'd hate to interfere with your headcanon. It's just it's not what the author is attempting to do, that's all.

[Riarra]

V doesn't have autism, the Giant tells us. And he has no interest in depicting anyone neurodivergent or suffering from mental illness in his comic whatsoever, for lack of experience on the subject, lack of things to say. So there's that, but completely genuinely I'd hate to interfere with your headcanon. It's just it's not what the author is attempting to do, that's all.

I do appreciate this, because V and Elan are both the kind of character where, if they had been conceived of as autistic or otherwise neurodivergent from the beginning, their portrayal would have absolutely left a bad taste in my mouth. Elan is infantilized a lot, and if V was canonically autistic, I think their negative character development would have sat wrong with me. "This person has difficulty relating with others and their single-minded pursuit of this one thing ends up hurting others around them" can be done well, but with an intentionally-autistic character I think it would be really easy to end up demonizing their autistic qualities instead of treating them with greater nuance, especially for a neurotypical author. Bad representation can absolutely be worse than no representation at all and the Giant's choice is completely valid.

I read someone once say (I'd love to give them credit but I have no memory of where I read this and google isn't helping) that a lot of good autistic characters are often written by neurotypical authors who have no idea they're writing an autistic character, because then they don't rely on repeating the stereotypical depictions they've seen before and just try to write the character well. V's definitely autistic-coded and I particularly like headcanoning Elan as autistic to kind of balance V out--hyperempathy (he personifies his lute and vest and puppets!) vs low-empathy, extroversion vs introversion--especially now that Elan's not being infantilized nearly as much.


Redcloak can be pretty autistic at times. The man has plenty of intelligence and even more wisdom yet he's single mindedly devoted to his stupid goal to the point of an obsession and in social situations he seems to very much use his intelligence and powers of analysis where most people would play by instinct. That's not unlike how I often do it.


He really likes his schedules and routines...

[PattThe]

I agree, the secondary/supporting/antagonizing cast are far more intriguing to investigate for neurodiverse qualities! :smallbiggrin:

[DaLucaray]

I'd like to give my two cents and mention that it's very easy for neurotypical writers to accidentally write characters with ADHD/Autistic traits without realizing it. There are achetypes in stories (the "nutty professor", the quiet misunderstood loner with a good heart) that share a lot of traits with neurodivergent people and very likely are drawn from real-life neurodivergent people. All storytellers draw from the real world- a good storyteller can see a pattern in behavior without realizing what it is they're noticing.

As for OotS characters, Elan in particular strikes me as just kinda dumb. I could see ADHD (bard camp) but nothing he says or does strikes me as autistic, unless you count "having an interest in something" as exclusively autistic.

I could definitely see V as being autistic. It depends on how you read the "The kids are in bed:smallwink:" panel IMO, and they are definitely very direct, practical, and focused on magic above all else. I agree that, were this done as intentional autism rep, it would be pretty callous, but I also agree that it's an interpretation supported by the text.

Durkon has a much stronger case after Utterly Dwarfed, now that we know that he's unusually stoic and rule-abiding, even for a dwarf. Before that book, he was a combination of "his people are very rule abiding" and "stranger in a strange land", but the context of dwarf society retroatively makes him more likely to be on the spectrum. I personally really like this interpretation, and a lot of that has to with the fact he doesnt really fit with the stereotype of autistic people.

[WanderingMist]

Hmm, I see it as more of a culture clash than anything to do with autism. Dwarves, elves, and even halflings may look human, but we have to remember they aren't, and the cultures they grew up in were fundamentally different. Elves live for centuries (I think dwarves also live for centuries but fewer of them), so of course their mindset is going to be vastly different compared to a species that lives 120 years at best. And I'm skeptical of autism and related disorder claims in general, because after trying to read that DSM-V or whatever, it seemed like they were trying to classify every single behavior as abnormal and a sign of some disorder.

[PattThe]

Hmm, I see it as more of a culture clash than anything to do with autism. Dwarves, elves, and even halflings may look human, but we have to remember they aren't, and the cultures they grew up in were fundamentally different. Elves live for centuries (I think dwarves also live for centuries but fewer of them), so of course their mindset is going to be vastly different compared to a species that lives 120 years at best. And I'm skeptical of autism and related disorder claims in general, because after trying to read that DSM-V or whatever, it seemed like they were trying to classify every single behavior as abnormal and a sign of some disorder. But Durkon was shown to be unique *before* he was kicked out of home. I don't see the culture clash as having anything to do with the narrative post-vampire arc.

[DaLucaray]

But Durkon was shown to be unique *before* he was kicked out of home. I don't see the culture clash as having anything to do with the narrative post-vampire arc.

My Doylist view here is that he was originally conceived as acting the way he does because Thats How Dwarfs Act, but over the last decade and a half his characterization changed and by the time The Giant wanted to show dwarven culture he decided to make Durkon, retroactively, a little weird for a dwarf.

[137beth]

My Doylist view here is that he was originally conceived as acting the way he does because Thats How Dwarfs Act, but over the last decade and a half his characterization changed and by the time The Giant wanted to show dwarven culture he decided to make Durkon, retroactively, a little weird for a dwarf.

Yea, that's my interpretation as well.

[Precure]

My Doylist view here is that he was originally conceived as acting the way he does because Thats How Dwarfs Act, but over the last decade and a half his characterization changed and by the time The Giant wanted to show dwarven culture he decided to make Durkon, retroactively, a little weird for a dwarf.

He's not shown like that before though.