Dune (2020): The Remakes Must Flow

[Caledonian]

I'm so often disappointed by mass media products, and especially by remakes. Still, I'm actually excited about this version of Dune. Primarily because it's only covering the first half of the novel.

There are many reasons why Dune is quasi-impossible to capture on film, and one of the biggest reasons is that the protagonist is supposed to go through puberty and mature from a boy to a man in-between the two sections of the novel, which are some years apart. You can't really accomplish that with two different actors, and trying to create the illusion with a single actor is frequently ridiculous. But having two films (assuming this one is successful) might make it possible.

Sandworms! Melange! Levitating pedophile villains! Zendaya! I'm very hopeful about this.

[Darth Credence]

I'm looking forward to it as well - there was some noteworthy things in the first movie, like Sting, but it can be so much better.
I don't think it's impossible any more to make an adult seem like a kid, though. What they did with Chris Evans in Captain America by making him into a short scrawny guy was pretty believable to me, so I could see something similar being done to make a 20 year old look 10.

[Eldan]

Villeneuve has done two of the best Sci Fi films of all time already, one epic and one a lot smaller in scale and both vîsually overwhelming, so I'm definitely down on the "hype" side.

[Dire_Flumph]

Cautiously optimistic to see what Villeneuve can do with the book, though the rush to turn Dune into a Star Wars level franchise from the start has me worried.

[Caledonian]

I do see your point. I think the difference between this and, say, the Hobbit trilogy, was that The Hobbit was never written in three sections and had to be artificially split. Dune actually comes in two 'books' from the beginning; most adaptations have tried to squeeze the two together.

[Narkis]

Villeneuve is perhaps the only director currently active in Hollywood I would trust for this without reservations. It's been a while since I've been this hyped about a movie.

[Mechalich]

I do see your point. I think the difference between this and, say, the Hobbit trilogy, was that The Hobbit was never written in three sections and had to be artificially split. Dune actually comes in two 'books' from the beginning; most adaptations have tried to squeeze the two together.

Dune is also, quite literally, twice as long as the Hobbit. The Hobbit has a word count of 95,356 words, while Dune is 188,000 words, putting it within a couple of pages of exactly twice the length. For additional perspective, Dune is approximately 11,000 words longer than Fellowship of the Ring (the longest of the LotR trilogy by a substantial margin) and that novel made for a particularly lengthy film even with the complete excision of the very lengthy Tom Bombadil section.

As a hypothetical rule of thumb you can convert prose to film at a rate of around 40,000- 50,000 words per hour, which lands most 100,000 word novels in the 2 - 2.5 hour range. Dune, however, would end up pushing 4 hours, which you just can't do, so two films is a must.

[Caledonian]

I'd just like to note that someone made a fan trailer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZXB4aAIJcw - posted it to YouTube, and didn't mention that it was a fan-made trailer and not official.

Received 38,000 negative votes.

[Azuresun]

Considering how....David Lynch the David Lynch Dune was, can you really call this a remake? I mean, Lynch's Dune is an interesting and endlessly quotable movie, don't get me wrong, but not the best adaptation.

[Tyrant]

Considering how....David Lynch the David Lynch Dune was, can you really call this a remake? I mean, Lynch's Dune is an interesting and endlessly quotable movie, don't get me wrong, but not the best adaptation.
I wouldn't consider it a remake. It's a new adaptation of the source material. (I assume) similar to the two Total Recall movies. The Colin Farrell version (again, I assume, as I didn't watch it) isn't a remake of the Arnold version. This will just be another attempt to adapt the material. Not sure if there is an easy term for that though. New adaptation maybe? Although I wonder how many people know there is a book* and that this isn't a remake of the 80s movie (or SciFi Channel series).

As far as the movie, I have high hopes (moderate expectations though) for the movie. I liked the Blade Runner sequel so I'm willing to allow myself to get hopeful for this director's attempt.

*I know it's a fairly well known book, in general. I mean among the average movie going populace and younger people who may not know of the book.

[Rodin]

Dune is also, quite literally, twice as long as the Hobbit. The Hobbit has a word count of 95,356 words, while Dune is 188,000 words, putting it within a couple of pages of exactly twice the length. For additional perspective, Dune is approximately 11,000 words longer than Fellowship of the Ring (the longest of the LotR trilogy by a substantial margin) and that novel made for a particularly lengthy film even with the complete excision of the very lengthy Tom Bombadil section.

As a hypothetical rule of thumb you can convert prose to film at a rate of around 40,000- 50,000 words per hour, which lands most 100,000 word novels in the 2 - 2.5 hour range. Dune, however, would end up pushing 4 hours, which you just can't do, so two films is a must.

By today's standards you're probably right. However, there are plenty of classic epics that are in that range. Gone With The Wind is 4 hours. Once Upon A Time in America is 3 hours 50 minutes, and that's after they made Leone shorten it. Ben Hur is 3 hours 44 minutes. LOTR: Return of the King is 3 hours 48 mins, and that's the theatrical version. Etc, etc.

I'm not saying it would be wise to do a 4-hour Dune. It's just not outside the realm of possibility.

[JoshL]

I am looking forward to this. I am a fan of both the Lynch and the TV versions, but I think they both got it wrong in different ways. Take another shot, see what you can do.

That said, the TV Children of Dune will be a hard bar to clear, if only for the cleansing of the houses sequence. Easily the most powerful scene in any adaptation so far. Oh, and Lynch Alia >>>>> tv Alia

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Eldan
Villeneuve has done two of the best Sci Fi films of all time already....

Interesting, I hadn't realized he'd done Arrival. That's one of my favorite films in recent years.

Blade Runner, on the other hand, I quit halfway through. So I guess I'm perfectly balanced between interest and non-interest for his Dune project.

[Mechalich]

By today's standards you're probably right. However, there are plenty of classic epics that are in that range. Gone With The Wind is 4 hours. Once Upon A Time in America is 3 hours 50 minutes, and that's after they made Leone shorten it. Ben Hur is 3 hours 44 minutes. LOTR: Return of the King is 3 hours 48 mins, and that's the theatrical version. Etc, etc.

I'm not saying it would be wise to do a 4-hour Dune. It's just not outside the realm of possibility.

Many of those classical films had actual intermissions though, Ben-Hur's, as I recall, occurs about 2/3rds of the way through, and you just get a screen that shows 'intermission' for like 7 minutes straight.

You can definitely do longer films, but there are reasons not too. For one, in the modern (pre-covid) multiplex-based theater model longer films are actually more difficult to monetize in the critical first two weekends because you can't cram as many showings into one day. Peter Jackson's follow-up to LotR, 2005's King Kong, clocked in at 3 hours 21 minutes, and this was noted as a real problem in its ability to generate revenue. Certain demographics, notably young children and the elderly, are also likely to avoid super-long runtimes in the theaters due to the rather prosaic reason of bladder control - if you know you can't make it 4 hours without a bathroom break (and with trailers and a brief early arrival a 3.5 hour movie becomes a 4 hour experience pretty easily) your incentive to see such a film in a theater plummets (I have personally observed many people skip post-credit scenes in Marvel films because they're running for the restroom).

So two films makes sense, it especially makes sense if you can film everything at once and then split the product into two films during post-production, because that helps to minimize costs while maximizing revenue. Anyway, I think the key point is that Dune is definitely long enough that stretching it across two movies isn't going to make it feel draggy. I mean, the 1984 Lynch version was intended to be 3 hours and was brutally cut down to just over two and you can certainly tell.

[Dire_Flumph]

I'm not saying it would be wise to do a 4-hour Dune. It's just not outside the realm of possibility.

My DVD version of the Sci-Fi channel adaption of Dune from 2000 runs at (checks......) .....Five Hours.

Definitely possible. But yeah, you'd have to bypass theaters and go to Netflix or something at that point.

[WinterKnight404]

YES Dune 2020 assuming it does make it out this year with the pandemic running rampant in the USA still. I first watched the Sci-fi channel series (Dune 2000) and was awed by it. I then started reading the novels. God Emperor of Dune is by far my favorite book in the entire series mainly because of the deep conversations between Leto II and Moneo. When Sci-fi came out with the sequel Children of Dune I was SO hopeful they would move on to God Emperor but I guess it just wasn't meant to be.

I really, REALLY, want this Villeneuve version to be awesome enough that it launches a whole series of films to finally see a live God Emperor adaptation. My only concern is the casting of Jason Momoa for the role of Duncan Idaho. For those of you who know the novel series, Duncan Idaho becomes a re-occuring character throughout the entire saga of Dune (at least Frank Herbert's version). I'm not sure that the beefy tattooed wonder that is the former Khal Drogo is really the guy for that role who was always described as the clean-cut incredibly handsome, perfect soldier, Captain America type. The 1980's movie was just terrible to me for many reasons.

[DavidSh]

As a hypothetical rule of thumb you can convert prose to film at a rate of around 40,000- 50,000 words per hour, which lands most 100,000 word novels in the 2 - 2.5 hour range. Dune, however, would end up pushing 4 hours, which you just can't do, so two films is a must.
The film Lawrence of Arabia, to which any production of Dune will inevitably be compared, came out at 3 hours 48 minutes and was a hit. Of course, those were different times.

[Clertar]

I was living in Quebec when Villeneuve released Polythechnique. I left the cinema very impressed, not to say floored, with the film. The way he treated such delicate source material (if we'd call it that) and the quality and sensitivity of the final product still amaze me when I think about it. Some years later, when a good friend was visiting me there, we went to see Incendies, an adaptation of a brilliant theatre play by Lebanese-Quebecois writer Wajdi Mouawad* with, once again, an incedibly sensitive topic to address. We left the cinema quite shaken and very impressed.

I have been an admirer of his cinema ever since, and to me he has repeatedly shown that he has the chops to take his strenghts (sensitivity, guts, and superb craftsmanship) to whatever level or scope the script and the movie demand. Nobody is infallible, of course, but if Villeneuve has been allowed to do things his way Dune should be a very interesting film to watch.


*Do yourself a favour and, besides watching this film, read his novel Anima.

[tomandtish]

By today's standards you're probably right. However, there are plenty of classic epics that are in that range. Gone With The Wind is 4 hours. Once Upon A Time in America is 3 hours 50 minutes, and that's after they made Leone shorten it. Ben Hur is 3 hours 44 minutes. LOTR: Return of the King is 3 hours 48 mins, and that's the theatrical version. Etc, etc.

I'm not saying it would be wise to do a 4-hour Dune. It's just not outside the realm of possibility.

As others have said, long films are more likely to have problems with both number of showings and audiences being able to stay in place.

Incidentally, LotR: Return of the King is 3:21 for theatrical and 4:24 for extended. And even the theatrical started showing the problem of feeling a bit too long.

[Tempist]

Dune was my first ever epic fantasy series. I genuinely hope that the film lives up to the legacy that the novels set.

[russdm]

As someone who liked the various Dune Stuff (I liked all the Frank Hebert and Post-Frank Herbert, plus the games), who has watched the Lynch Movie and the Scifi series...

I am looking forward to it. I think that with the right director and the budget, you can certainly get something to the quality of Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings movies. Dune is very easy to adapt really, considering it's story is really basically a guy organizing a bunch of natives to fight an empire (Has the plot point moments of Star Wars in several instances) and he takes over. There is some extra bits, but nothing that really removes the potential story-telling.

Heck, Lynch made a story that got really close to telling it, cut out most of the Baron and Feyd material, and it still worked. Which was too bad because i would have loved to have seen that material with Sting as Feyd. (Sting and that J-strap with wings has to be the most surreal Dune thing ever)

The Scifi Series (Dune and Children of Dune) was a pretty close adaption, and showed that Dune can be filmed. Heck, they crammed two books into Children of Dune (Dune Messiah and Children of Dune), with a decent portrayal. And yeah, it totally gets the Funny Hats Version description

Things awesome about it: Thanos as Gurney Halleck; Stellan Skarsgard as Baron; Batista as Rabban; Poe as Duke Leto;

Things not awesome about it: Khal Drogo as Duncan Idaho, I saw the Conan movie that Jason made and was not impressed much. Arnold make look nothing like Conan or not much, but i think he really more nailed the character better. Jason had the look of Conan more, but i just never felt like he was Conan. Like Arnold's felt that he could have fit in some in some of the adventures/books of Conan.

[dps]

As others have said, long films are more likely to have problems with both number of showings and audiences being able to stay in place.

Incidentally, LotR: Return of the King is 3:21 for theatrical and 4:24 for extended. And even the theatrical started showing the problem of feeling a bit too long.

It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World clocks in at 3:30, and that's after the studio made Stanley Kramer cut it after test screenings. I think his original cut was something like 4:20, which is insane for a comedy--not that 3:30 isn't insane for what is essentially slapstick.

4:20 was also the running time of The Greatest Story Ever Told.

[Tyndmyr]

Two hours and change is pretty much the modern benchmark. If you break the three hour mark, that's a pretty unusual choice these days.

Netflix and streaming might provide at least some latitude here, but at a certain point of additional length, you can just go to a mini series instead of a single movie, and that's probably more convenient.

[dps]

in the modern (pre-covid) multiplex-based theater model longer films are actually more difficult to monetize in the critical first two weekends because you can't cram as many showings into one day.


That's not entirely true, because you can have the same film playing on multiple screens at the same time. I've seen it done for big hit movies--I've been to the theater and the same movie is playing on 8 of the 12 screens.

[Vizzerdrix]

I miss the old dune board game. Wish I still had it. :smallfrown:

[Noldo]

That's not entirely true, because you can have the same film playing on multiple screens at the same time. I've seen it done for big hit movies--I've been to the theater and the same movie is playing on 8 of the 12 screens.

But you do the same with shorter film and allocate more slots to it. One hour difference in run time can easily mean one additional showing, per day, per screen. So multiple screens may even emphasize the issue.

[WinterKnight404]

Dune is very easy to adapt really, considering it's story is really basically a guy organizing a bunch of natives to fight an empire (Has the plot point moments of Star Wars in several instances) and he takes over. There is some extra bits, but nothing that really removes the potential story-telling.


I completely disagree with this statement that is a gross oversimplification of the story. I feel that you didn't truly appreciate or understand the power of the original narrative. One of the hardest parts to adapt to film is the "wierding way" which the Lynch movie completely perverted into a "sonic boom" voice weapon that caused explosions. The sci-fi channel series depicted it more accurately as a fighting style where movement speed was increased and virtually gave them the power of teleportation but none of them really explain what it is. Through Dune, Frank Herbert explored political ideologies. He wrote it at the time of the Cold War. Imagine House Atreides as the USA and the House Harkonen as USSR and spice melange as oil and you will be on the right track. I could go on and on about the topics he touches on: Exploitation of religion as a means to control the poplulation. Genetic adaptations and cloning. The dangers of AI and the threat it poses to humanity. Precognition. Evolution and ancestral memories... No single movie or TV series could never dream of covering all of this material.

The reason you feel any similarity to Star Wars is because Lucas borrowed heavily from DUNE and not the other way around. Herbert even threatened to sue over copyright infringement if Lucas didn't change his script. Watch this video for a deeper explanation on that and the multiple other ways Star Wars "borrowed" from Dune
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J4LYVs5Gg4

[Azuresun]

I completely disagree with this statement that is a gross oversimplification of the story. I feel that you didn't truly appreciate or understand the power of the original narrative. One of the hardest parts to adapt to film is the "wierding way" which the Lynch movie completely perverted into a "sonic boom" voice weapon that caused explosions. The sci-fi channel series depicted it more accurately as a fighting style where movement speed was increased and virtually gave them the power of teleportation but none of them really explain what it is. Through Dune, Frank Herbert explored political ideologies. He wrote it at the time of the Cold War. Imagine House Atreides as the USA and the House Harkonen as USSR and spice melange as oil and you will be on the right track. I could go on and on about the topics he touches on: Exploitation of religion as a means to control the poplulation. Genetic adaptations and cloning. The dangers of AI and the threat it poses to humanity. Precognition. Evolution and ancestral memories... No single movie or TV series could never dream of covering all of this material.

A big part of the reason that Dune is such a hard adaptation is that on the surface, it's a straightforward "Chosen One seeks revenge and his birthright" story, but is a pretty hard deconstruction of such stories in many ways, from why Paul is the Chosen One, to how he tries to manage that fate and ends up being consumed and made irrelevant by it. So many things in the book are not what they seem if you stop and think for a moment (Leto is not a good ruler, Yueh is not weak, Irulan is not an objective biographer of anybody, especially her father), but so easy to miss in a superficial reading or adaptation.

[Dienekes]

A big part of the reason that Dune is such a hard adaptation is that on the surface, it's a straightforward "Chosen One seeks revenge and his birthright" story, but is a pretty hard deconstruction of such stories in many ways, from why Paul is the Chosen One, to how he tries to manage that fate and ends up being consumed and made irrelevant by it. So many things in the book are not what they seem if you stop and think for a moment (Leto is not a good ruler, Yueh is not weak, Irulan is not an objective biographer of anybody, especially her father), but so easy to miss in a superficial reading or adaptation.

Missed my favorite one. Rabban "The Beast" who gets belittled and insulted as an idiot by everyone who speaks about him, is literally the only one who recognized the fremen threat, and submitted a plan that would have uncovered what Paul was doing.

Only for the Baron to reject it.

[NigelWalmsley]

A big part of the reason that Dune is such a hard adaptation is that on the surface, it's a straightforward "Chosen One seeks revenge and his birthright" story, but is a pretty hard deconstruction of such stories in many ways, from why Paul is the Chosen One, to how he tries to manage that fate and ends up being consumed and made irrelevant by it. So many things in the book are not what they seem if you stop and think for a moment (Leto is not a good ruler, Yueh is not weak, Irulan is not an objective biographer of anybody, especially her father), but so easy to miss in a superficial reading or adaptation.

Also, a lot of that stuff only really becomes explicit in the later books. Dune itself plays things relatively straight (though, of course, things like the Missionaria Protectiva complicate even its narrative). Where it really gets interesting is the later books, which ask what happens after the traditional Chosen One story. In Dune, Paul defeats the Emperor and claims the Princess. But what the later books do is ask "what does that really accomplish?" The Emperor is just a guy, defeating him doesn't magically give you control over the whole of the Empire, let alone reconstruct it in a way you're happy with. Just marrying the Princess doesn't magically make her love you, or make her faithful to you. Your armies don't magically stop as soon as they've avenged your honor and defeated your enemies. Those are the things that make Dune unique, but they're exactly the things that it's difficult to adapt effectively.

[russdm]

The reason you feel any similarity to Star Wars is because Lucas borrowed heavily from DUNE and not the other way around. Herbert even threatened to sue over copyright infringement if Lucas didn't change his script. Watch this video for a deeper explanation on that and the multiple other ways Star Wars "borrowed" from Dune


One of the features on the Scifi Channels Dune DVD/etc, includes a section about the book from the perspective of herbert's friend, and he talks about arrakis, iraq, spice, oil, and that Frank had written an article about the desert (nonfiction type) for something that was about california in a part. And then there is some more bit.

You got your comparisons wrong. House Atreides is not the US and House Harkenon is not the USSR. The cold war doesn't even come up in a way. much less a homage. Frank may have wanted a "soviet" sounding name, but there is no evidence that he thought of it being cold war. i don't think that i have seen references to the cold war influence. Dune doesn't/didn't have it; star trek and roddenberry definitely with the TOS' Klingons and Romulans

A better element for the two houses would actually be Austria and Prussia in the Holy Roman Empire, or say maybe something two houses fighting for power.

While because it is easy to claim that Frank wrote it in the sixties, to give it that Cold War put on, you are wrong to do so. Unless Frank himself that he was going for a Cold War vibe, where does it come from? Frank used a considerable amount of different history elements, especially arabic and muslim.

I know about how Star Wars stole from Dune. It is why there are similar plot points, Luke loses his adoptive parents, he joins a rebellion, he goes on to defeat enemy forces. Paul goes through some similar moments. Plus, the book was out before Lucas was writing the script or during writing anyway.

As for:

1) the weirding way was not done right by Lynch because he found it either too hilarious or too narm to be doing what he called Kung Fu on the sand. His words. He made it be sonics, which thanks to a bit of sheer stupidity, is something that anyone could have developed as well. It comes across as just plain stupid.

2) Spice/Melange is not Oil. That is something you are wrong on. It's value of a resource so vital to the system is like how important oil is, but it is definitely not oil. From what i recall, you can't consume oil and start developing powers of seeing the future, or its ability to give extended life spans. Spice/Melange is basically a super drug, because all of what it can do. And Frank was reportedly interested in some pharma areas. like marijauna and other such. Mind altering substances. From what i have read elsewhere

3) Tolkien wrote Lord of the Rings during parts or after the first world war and some bits into the second. the books, hobbit, LotR, were published in the fifties. Some people called it an allegory for the earlier historical bits of time some. A point that annoyed Tolkien. Are you sure that you are not just playing an allegory point here?


Star Trek definitely has strong Cold War parts/influence, and Roddenberry/other-writers never went out of their way to hide that. so that whole thing can be said and recognized. I don't think that you can claim the same for Dune.

And this should be the First book, not the sequels of Dune Messiah and Children of Dune.


You can claim Cold War, but for Cold War Stories i would expect to see: two powers/factions that resemble either Eagleland or Commieland with many of the stereotypes and ones heavily exagrated by the feeling of each side as viewed by the writer; there would be areas/third parties that the two powers/factions are trying to influence and encourage them to their side; both powers/factions will be providing some kind of support to their allies/etc; neither power/faction would be taking direct action or having its members taking direct military action agaisnt the other side, they both employ events to maybe cause a proxy war, but they don't fight that war themselves, if they did, it is not a Cold War story.

[Clertar]

This looks really good.

https://i0.wp.com/www.nerdsandbeyond.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/dune-exclusive-2.jpg?w=1400

[Clertar]

And we get a first good glimpse.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9xhJrPXop4

[Eldan]

Still all looks greyer than I'd like, but quite impressive.

[Dire_Flumph]

Well, it looks beautiful, that's for sure. This is one of the few that I'm hoping I get to see in a theater as unlikely as that seems for the near future.

[Spacewolf]

Seems like they the stilsuits arent going to have facemasks which is a shame. I know directors want to show off their leads but I think hiding most of their faces to the outside world would have helped make the Fremen be abit more alien.

[Dire_Flumph]

Seems like they the stilsuits arent going to have facemasks which is a shame. I know directors want to show off their leads but I think hiding most of their faces to the outside world would have helped make the Fremen be abit more alien.

They have masks covering the nose and mouths, they're just down in almost every shot. At 1:18 you can see, I think that's Stilgar, with the mask covering his lower face, and a headwrap covering the upper, leaving only the blue eyes visible. At 2:49 you can see Paul fully covered except for eyes as well.

Although Chani doesn't seem to even have that lower mask in a down position in any shot, so yeah, probably don't want to cover Zendaya up I guess, but I'd expect just about anytime someone has to talk the mask will come down. I'll always remember the first Sam Raimi Spider-Man as a good warning of how leaving your leads in masks can really kill dramatic dialogue scenes.

[J-H]

Supposedly Frank Herbert stole from an earlier book about a situation somewhere in the Caucausus or around the Caspian Sea. Tight on time, so I can't look it up.
Stillsuits should look very weathered... the screenshot of the one I assume is Stilgar makes their suits look too "new."

Casting choices (vaguely Arabic-to-Pashtun) for the Fremen generally looks good and fits. Jessica is supposed to be a redhead and I had a hard time picking her out in the trailer (had to watch it with sound off due to conference call).

Not a fan of "bald Harkonnen," but they have historically been hard to cast and have look good.

Shai-hulud is suitably epic.

[Caledonian]

Frank Herbert stole a lot from the film "Lawrence of Arabia". Given the overlap of certain critical ideas, it seems likely that he was introduced to some concepts by that movie's depiction of T. E. Lawrence. The theme of triumphing through the ability to endure pain and accept loss comes straight from that movie, particularly a key scene where natives try to duplicate Lawrence's ability to extinguish a candleflame with fingers without apparent pain. As he explains, there is no 'trick', only the choice not to care that it hurts.

[Corvus]

It could be good. Certainly looks visually impressive. But that doesn't always translate to a good move.

One odd choice is that they have turned Liet Kynes into a black woman. Not sure why, given that Liet was half-fremen (he had a fremen mother in the book) and was also the father of Chani. The problem is that they don't look like any of the other fremen or Chani.

[Cikomyr2]

It could be good. Certainly looks visually impressive. But that doesn't always translate to a good move.

One odd choice is that they have turned Liet Kynes into a black woman. Not sure why, given that Liet was half-fremen (he had a fremen mother in the book) and was also the father of Chani. The problem is that they don't look like any of the other fremen or Chani.

Then the child takes more after the father? That's why the child had to go live among the fremen?

[Kitten Champion]

I was kind of wavering as to whether I'd watch any trailer material or not, as I don't intend to see any movie in the near future anyways. Still, it doesn't really matter.

My immediately thought was that it does take after Blade Runner 2049 and Arrival. Both in the sense of Villeneuve's love of the monochromatic and an underlying attempt to de-emphasize the more sublime aspects of speculative fiction that's commonly used at the forefront of genre cinema. The emphasis is on the actors' faces and the recognizable dialogue, while the unfamiliar SF technology and the alienating settings are pushed ever-so-casually into the background.

I like this version of Paul Atreides in particularly, he looks kind of underwhelming and bedraggled as opposed to... the obvious protagonist? I suppose. Not that I have a huge love for the novel(s) as on the whole I only read Dune once and wasn't a devoted fan or anything, but the idea of Paul's calculated abuse of the universe's beliefs to manipulate others into carrying out his revenge and eventual rise to power I found to be pretty cool. It was also something the Lynch adaptation muddled in a number of ways, including making its Paul into being way more of a Chad. He's got impressively coiffured 80's hair at all times, the body of an Olympic gymnast, seemingly unlimited confidence, talks with the kind of intensity of someone performing Henry V in a packed-out theatre, and he's got those literal superpowers going for him -- that and the lack of proper framing his arc made his actions in general feel kind of right and natural rather than expressing the more morally problematic angle that was core to the novel's themes.

Granted a few clips from a trailer are no basis for anything, ever. The rest of the movie might be a 1987 Japanese Coca-Cola ad on repeat for two hours.

[Berserk Mecha]

My initial reaction to this trailer is basically, "Yup, that looks like a Dune movie."

After my initial thoughts, I'm glad that it looks like it's taking itself seriously. Most of the more mainstream sci-fi and fantasy movies these days tend to go with the action-comedy route like the Marvel films so this looks like it will be a welcome change of pace.

I'm a little torn on the new design of the sandworms. It's a change from the usual three-part mouth that they're usually depicted with but I do kind of like that the maw looks like a giant eerie eye.

Also, does anyone know who will be playing Alia in this film? The character isn't listed on IMDB or Wikipedia. Alia's a difficult character to portray so I'm wondering if she's going to be some freakish CGI creation. Which... might be appropriate?

[Ramza00]

Supposedly Frank Herbert stole from an earlier book about a situation somewhere in the Caucausus or around the Caspian Sea. Tight on time, so I can't look it up.
Stillsuits should look very weathered... the screenshot of the one I assume is Stilgar makes their suits look too "new."


Yes Frank Herbert was inspired by Lesley Blanch ‘The Sabre Of Paradise‘ and many of the concepts, words, but also quotes he lifted directly from Lesley Blanch.

You can look it up, it is all over google if you type in Herbert plus Lesley Blanch or Herbert and The Sabre of Paradise.

I am not going to link them directly for it is open a whole different can of worms.

[Azuresun]

Also, does anyone know who will be playing Alia in this film? The character isn't listed on IMDB or Wikipedia. Alia's a difficult character to portray so I'm wondering if she's going to be some freakish CGI creation. Which... might be appropriate?

The adaptation's planned to be a two-parter (assuming the virus doesn't tank theatre sales enough that part two gets cancelled), so she's probably not in this part at all. It feels like the right choice--the Lynch adaptation and even the book felt a bit rushed to me after the time-skip.

[Eldan]

I didn't notice the Harkonnen Soldiers before. And Bautista is playing Rabban, I think?

So, they are all pale and bald. Rabban is from an ice planet, which might explain the paleness, but still interesting how uniform they all look. They might just all be enhanced in the same ways or something.

[Ramza00]

The adaptation's planned to be a two-parter (assuming the virus doesn't tank theatre sales enough that part two gets cancelled), so she's probably not in this part at all. It feels like the right choice--the Lynch adaptation and even the book felt a bit rushed to me after the time-skip.

They are filming part 1 and 2 simultaneously. They literally finished main shooting in 2019, yet they did some extra filming in Aug 2020 after post production. So to my understanding we are getting both a part 1 and 2.

[Cikomyr2]

Missed my favorite one. Rabban "The Beast" who gets belittled and insulted as an idiot by everyone who speaks about him, is literally the only one who recognized the fremen threat, and submitted a plan that would have uncovered what Paul was doing.

Only for the Baron to reject it.

can.. I get a refresher on Rabban's plan?! I don't remember that part

[Spike_99]

I'm so often disappointed by mass media products, and especially by remakes. Still, I'm actually excited about this version of Dune. Primarily because it's only covering the first half of the novel.

There are many reasons why Dune is quasi-impossible to capture on film, and one of the biggest reasons is that the protagonist is supposed to go through puberty and mature from a boy to a man in-between the two sections of the novel, which are some years apart. You can't really accomplish that with two different actors, and trying to create the illusion with a single actor is frequently ridiculous. But having two films (assuming this one is successful) might make it possible.

Sandworms! Melange! Levitating pedophile villains! Zendaya! I'm very hopeful about this.

The book has been crying out for a do-over for a very, very long time. I really liked the David Lynch version, despite it's problems. But, the CGI of 1984 just couldn't do justice to the tech in the novel. Also, Kyle MacLachlan may have been about 25 when he played Paul, but he looked 35. Timothee Chalamet is also about 25, but he looks younger: so he's more believable as a 16 year old Paul. Also, he's a much better actor. Production on the 2nd movie has been delayed by the COVID, so that might actually be to the film's advantage since the long delay will mean that the actors will be a few years older when they do Part 2 and it will easier to age up Timothee to play the older Paul.

From the trailer, the movie looks beautiful! From the body shields to the giant sand worms, everything looks 1000% better than the 1984 version. I can't wait!

[Eldan]

can.. I get a refresher on Rabban's plan?! I don't remember that part

I mainly remember him suggesting that someone should monitor the Fremen's precise movements and get a head count of how many there actually were, out in the desert. If they were dealing with some bands or an actual army.

[Narkis]

Trailer looks pretty good. I just hope the movie gets delayed, I'm not stepping into a theater mid-pandemic.

[SirKazum]

Trailer looks pretty good. I just hope the movie gets delayed, I'm not stepping into a theater mid-pandemic.

The release date (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1160419/releaseinfo?ref_=tt_dt_dt) is listed between December 17 and December 26 depending on the country. No release date is listed for Greece (or Brazil, for that matter) but I imagine it'd be within that range. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable stepping inside a theater by that point, but that's a whole other discussion.

[Narkis]

The release date (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1160419/releaseinfo?ref_=tt_dt_dt) is listed between December 17 and December 26 depending on the country. No release date is listed for Greece (or Brazil, for that matter) but I imagine it'd be within that range. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable stepping inside a theater by that point, but that's a whole other discussion.

Yeah, I definitely won't be comfortable stepping into a theater this winter. I'd prefer if it was delayed to spring or, even better, summer 2021.

[Caledonian]

Why? What do you think is going to change between then and now?

The majority of people who get Covid never even notice. You're free to avoid the theater if you wish - I'll be watching those sandworms on the big screen!

[hamishspence]

Missed my favorite one. Rabban "The Beast" who gets belittled and insulted as an idiot by everyone who speaks about him, is literally the only one who recognized the fremen threat, and submitted a plan that would have uncovered what Paul was doing.

Only for the Baron to reject it.

He does bring up the difficulties of counting the population, and his worries about the hazard presented by the Fremen - but he doesn't exactly submit plans - just the aforementioned worries.
“You may keep some lasguns if you wish.”
“Yes, m’Lord. And I have a free hand.”
“As long as you squeeze.”
Rabban’s smile was gloating. “I understand perfectly, m’Lord.”
“You understand nothing perfectly,” the Baron growled. “Let us have that clear at the outset. What you do understand is how to carry out my orders. Has it occurred to you, nephew, that there are at least five million persons on this planet?”
“Does m‘Lord forget that I was his regent-siridar here before? And if m’Lord will forgive me, his estimate may be low. It’s difficult to count a population scattered among sinks and pans the way they are here. And when you consider the Fremen of—”
“The Fremen aren’t worth considering!”
“Forgive me, m’Lord, but the Sardaukar believe otherwise.”

...

“Well, the Sardaukar think they were Fremen. The Sardaukar already have launched a program to wipe out all Fremen.”
“Good!”
“But—”
“It’ll keep the Sardaukar occupied. And we’ll soon have Hawat. I know it! I can feel it! Ah, this has been a day! The Sardaukar off hunting a few useless desert bands while we get the real prize!”
“M’Lord....” Rabban hesitated, frowning. “I’ve always felt that we underestimated the Fremen, both in numbers and in—”
“Ignore them, boy! They’re rabble. It’s the populous towns, cities, and villages that concern us. A great many people there, eh?”
“A great many, m’Lord.”
“They worry me, Rabban.”
“Worry you?”
“Oh ... ninety per cent of them are of no concern. But there are always a few... Houses Minor and so on, people of ambition who might try a dangerous thing. If one of them should get off Arrakis with an unpleasant story about what happened here, I’d be most displeased. Have you any idea how displeased I’d be?”
Rabban swallowed.
“You must take immediate measures to hold a hostage from each House Minor,” the Baron said. “As far as anyone off Arrakis must learn, this was straightforward House-to-House battle. The Sardaukar had no part in it, you understand? The Duke was offered the usual quarter and exile, but he died in an unfortunate accident before he could accept. He was about to accept, though. That is the story. And any rumor that there were Sardaukar here, it must be laughed at.”
“As the Emperor wishes it,” Rabban said.

I'd agree though, that Rabban is sorely underestimated by many - he might not be super-smart, but he's well-grounded.

[Trafalgar]

Jason Momoa as Duncan Idaho.... Not sure how I feel about that.... Especially if they try to do all 6 books. Duncan is the only character in every book.

I liked Jason Momoa in GoT and in Aquaman but I don't know if he has the acting chops for the role. Of course, I also though Heath Ledger was going to be a horrible Joker before the Dark Knight came out so I could be wrong.

[Cikomyr2]

Jason Momoa as Duncan Idaho.... Not sure how I feel about that.... Especially if they try to do all 6 books. Duncan is the only character in every book.

I liked Jason Momoa in GoT and in Aquaman but I don't know if he has the acting chops for the role. Of course, I also though Heath Ledger was going to be a horrible Joker before the Dark Knight came out so I could be wrong.

Put Patrick Stewart as Leto 2, Worm-Emperor of Mankind, and make him do a duo act with Jason Momoa.

[Trafalgar]

Put Patrick Stewart as Leto 2, Worm-Emperor of Mankind, and make him do a duo act with Jason Momoa.

That would confuse me. Because Patrick Stewart is Gurney Halleck. Who plays Gurney in the new movie?

<Checks out IMDB>

----Josh Brolin----

So if things go the way you want....

Thanos was played by Josh Brolin who is playing Gurney Halleck who was played by Patrick Stewart who will pay Leto 2 in "God Emperor of Dune". Not sure where I was going with this but to show the 6 degrees of separation between Leto 2 and Thanos.

Incidentally, I am impressed by the cast (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1160419/fullcredits?ref_=tt_ql_1).

[Cikomyr2]

That would confuse me. Because Patrick Stewart is Gurney Halleck. Who plays Gurney in the new movie?

<Checks out IMDB>

----Josh Brolin----

So if things go the way you want....

Thanos was played by Josh Brolin who is playing Gurney Halleck who was played by Patrick Stewart who will pay Leto 2 in "God Emperor of Dune". Not sure where I was going with this but to show the 6 degrees of separation between Leto 2 and Thanos.

Incidentally, I am impressed by the cast (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1160419/fullcredits?ref_=tt_ql_1).

It would put a final bow on Patrick Stewart's career. He started with Dune, he ended with Dune.

Sorry, Dune as an overall work of media is more important to me as basically Patrick Stewart's breakout role into scifi.

[Trafalgar]

It would put a final bow on Patrick Stewart's career. He started with Dune, he ended with Dune.



Patrick Stewart had a career before Dune. I think the first thing I ever saw him in "I Claudius" in which he played Sejanus. That was made in the 70s. He still had most of his hair....

[Cikomyr2]

Patrick Stewart had a career before Dune. I think the first thing I ever saw him in "I Claudius" in which he played Sejanus. That was made in the 70s. He still had most of his hair....

I will try to get out of the hole I dug for myself and make it appear that I obviously meant Patrick Stewart's *American Sci-Fi Career*

[Kitten Champion]

I think Excalibur was his first notable movie, at least it's the oldest one I can remember him in.

While it definitely wasn't a big role, he did stand out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSukMQHQLIs&ab_channel=LaszloStickswood).

On a tangential note, I forgot how much I disliked Nigel Terry's presence in that.

[Roland St. Jude]

I am a lover of all things Dune, and I admit to being a fan of the grand, operatic mess that is the David Lynch Dune. I liked the TV version, too, and I'm sure I'll like the Villenueve version. I like his other work, a lot.

But watching this "side-by-side" video, I find I prefer the visuals from the 1984 Lynch version in pretty much every single frame. Is that crazy?

[Ramza00]

But watching this "side-by-side" video, I find I prefer the visuals from the 1984 Lynch version in pretty much every single frame. Is that crazy?

Nope.

You are not the only one who feels that way.

I can speculate why people feel that way, why I feel that way, but it would sound mean...Mean in the kind of way such as picking your favorite of your children and in doing so dissing the other children.

Lynch's version is brilliant yet simultaneously very bad. (And that is okay!)

[brionl]

Nope.

You are not the only one who feels that way.

I can speculate why people feel that way, why I feel that way, but it would sound mean...Mean in the kind of way such as picking your favorite of your children and in doing so dissing the other children.

Lynch's version is brilliant yet simultaneously very bad. (And that is okay!)

I probably haven't watched it since it first came out, but IMO it was great visually. Just the story was all butchered.

[Eldan]

I do find a lot of what we see in the Villeneuve version (armour, spaceships, architecture) looks very grey and blocky. Which I don't think really fits with the books, which are about prestige-obsessed noble houses, who surely would invest in a bit more pomp and colour.

[SirKazum]

I do find a lot of what we see in the Villeneuve version (armour, spaceships, architecture) looks very grey and blocky. Which I don't think really fits with the books, which are about prestige-obsessed noble houses, who surely would invest in a bit more pomp and colour.

The recent TV series does an amazing job of being ridiculously flamboyant, at least in the wardrobe department. I liked how it looked there.

[Caledonian]

I probably haven't watched it since it first came out, but IMO it was great visually. Just the story was all butchered. It was a great movie, just a terrible adaptation.

Which is rather how I feel about the Lord of the Rings movies - the first was a good adaptation, the others weren't, and I don't think the story they told stands up on its own.

Lynch is a brilliant director who tells his own sort of stories with his own sort of visuals. He was never a good choice to film Dune. I don't know why he was selected, or why he said yes. Although given his lawyer's upbraiding after he turned down the directorship of *The Return of the Jedi*, I can guess it was money.

[WinterKnight404]

You got your comparisons wrong. House Atreides is not the US and House Harkenon is not the USSR. The cold war doesn't even come up in a way. much less a homage.

2) Spice/Melange is not Oil.

You can claim Cold War, but for Cold War Stories i would expect to see: two powers/factions that resemble either Eagleland or Commieland with many of the stereotypes and ones heavily exagrated by the feeling of each side as viewed by the writer; there would be areas/third parties that the two powers/factions are trying to influence and encourage them to their side; both powers/factions will be providing some kind of support to their allies/etc; neither power/faction would be taking direct action or having its members taking direct military action agaisnt the other side, they both employ events to maybe cause a proxy war, but they don't fight that war themselves, if they did, it is not a Cold War story.

I did not come up with the Cold War comparison. It appears in the Appendices of my copy of Dune and it's not clear if Herbert wrote it himself or not. I'm trying very hard not to sound condescending but if you think, and dig, just a bit deeper you will see that the comparison between the houses and the nations in the cold war is very apt. I never said spice is oil and I also never said the conflict between Atreides and Harkonnen is exactly like the Cold War. I said that there were strong similarities that enrich the story of Dune beyond the oversimplified plot you expressed in your OP. Spice is a metaphor for a highly prized natural resource that two superpowers are fighting for control of, very much like oil. What is the sigil of House Atreides? An Eagle... hmmm could that be like the USA? What is the main color of House Harkonen's banner? Red. Soviet Red. Where is oil found? Desert. Where is spice found? Desert. Like I said, you just have to think a bit more critically.

As for factions and third parties that each is trying to win to their side Dune is FULL of them. Both Harkonen and Atriedes in the beginning are vying for the attentions of House Corrino, the house of the Emperor, and trying to win his favor by producing spice and that plot also thickens considerably. After the initial fall of Atreides, Paul has to earn the favor of the Fremen, the natives of the planet (also a strategy commonly employed by the USA when trying to conquer a country to earn the hearts and minds of the local population). They both also have to appeal to the interests of the Bene Gesserit, and the Spacing Guild and there are many other parties involved in the novels to follow.

[Caledonian]

Yes. Harkonnen is a Finnish name, and Finland used to be dominated by the Soviet Union. There are clear and obvious parallels, but the Atreides are not meant to be the US and the Harkonnens aren't the SU. These are associations meant to quickly establish a pattern.

Just as melange isn't oil, and Arrakis isn't the Middle East - but the parallels are meant to make us think about how the patterns established in the fiction reflect patterns in the real world.

[SirKazum]

Just as melange isn't oil, and Arrakis isn't the Middle East - but the parallels are meant to make us think about how the patterns established in the fiction reflect patterns in the real world.

Indeed, spice melange isn't oil, and Arrakis isn't the Middle East... but IMO, you have to try really hard to not see a thematic connection there. Not a direct correspondence, of course, but a "reminding" of real-world issues. After all, you've got a natural resource that is the most important commodity in the international economy, in large part because of the role it has in enabling long-distance transportation (that's not all spice does, sure, but that's not all oil does either), a resource which is found in a desert area populated by a deeply religious (Zensunni, in fact) people whose names and native phrases all sound vaguely Arabic? Come on. (And yes, I'm sure that connection involves misrepresenting the real-world counterparts in significant ways, but those misrepresentations are widely-held assumptions that are likely to be in the mind of the average reader, no matter how wrong.)

[WinterKnight404]

Yes. Harkonnen is a Finnish name, and Finland used to be dominated by the Soviet Union. There are clear and obvious parallels, but the Atreides are not meant to be the US and the Harkonnens aren't the SU. These are associations meant to quickly establish a pattern.

Just as melange isn't oil, and Arrakis isn't the Middle East - but the parallels are meant to make us think about how the patterns established in the fiction reflect patterns in the real world.

Thank you. That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. :smallsmile:

[WinterKnight404]

Stillsuits should look very weathered... the screenshot of the one I assume is Stilgar makes their suits look too "new."

Casting choices (vaguely Arabic-to-Pashtun) for the Fremen generally looks good and fits. Jessica is supposed to be a redhead and I had a hard time picking her out in the trailer (had to watch it with sound off due to conference call).

Shai-hulud is suitably epic.

The stillsuits look similar to the suits worn in the TV series to me.

Jessica AND Chani were supposed to be redheads but I got blasted and accused of being racist for bringing that up as the reason Zendaya was a bad choice to play Chani on a FB group but this is a politically correct world we live in now. Also, they recast Dr. Kynes, Chani's father in the books, as a black woman for this film. I wonder how they are going to squeeze in an unnecessary LGBT relationship into the plot.

I think the great worms look strange. Too many teeth.

[Cikomyr2]

Indeed, spice melange isn't oil, and Arrakis isn't the Middle East... but IMO, you have to try really hard to not see a thematic connection there. Not a direct correspondence, of course, but a "reminding" of real-world issues. After all, you've got a natural resource that is the most important commodity in the international economy, in large part because of the role it has in enabling long-distance transportation (that's not all spice does, sure, but that's not all oil does either), a resource which is found in a desert area populated by a deeply religious (Zensunni, in fact) people whose names and native phrases all sound vaguely Arabic? Come on. (And yes, I'm sure that connection involves misrepresenting the real-world counterparts in significant ways, but those misrepresentations are widely-held assumptions that are likely to be in the mind of the average reader, no matter how wrong.)

For me, Dune story is more about colonialism, oppression of native populations and just how ****ed up and unstable are all Empires who rely so much on their oppression of these native lands.

That's what it's about. Now, I believe the similarities one may see in the work vs the real world is meant to evoke the themes. But they are not the theme.

This is the same reason Tolkien hated analogical works. Because the analogy, when too blunt, gets in the way of the theme of the work. Mordor isn't Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia, but Mordor is meant to represent a mechanized, industrialized oppressive imperialist regime.

[SirKazum]

For me, Dune story is more about colonialism, oppression of native populations and just how ****ed up and unstable are all Empires who rely so much on their oppression of these native lands.

Oh yes, it is very clearly about that. AND about how hero-worship distorts the truth about leaders, and leads to tyranny often worse than what the hero fought against. AND about the difficulties involved in terraforming a desert planet. AND about the lengths to which power-center groups will go to preserve whatever portion they have of the status-quo. AND about how knowledge of the future would completely screw you up and make your life hell. It's about a lot of stuff, and it has a LOT to say about each theme. Which is one of the reasons why it's an absolutely genius piece of literature, and one of the best works ever IMO, but then again, I'm just a fanboy :smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

I think the great worms look strange. Too many teeth.

Also not my favourite worm depiction, but actually very book accurate.

[WinterKnight404]

It's been announced that Dune 2020 will now be Dune 2021. :smallsigh:

"It seems the spice won’t flow until next year, as Warner Bros. and Legendary are moving Denis Villeneueve‘s Dune off its December release date and will unveil the epic sci-fi movie on Oct. 1, 2021, Collider has exclusively learned."

https://collider.com/dune-movie-new-release-date-delayed-2021/?utm_campaign=collidersocial&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter

[Cikomyr2]

It's been announced that Dune 2020 will now be Dune 2021. :smallsigh:

"It seems the spice won’t flow until next year, as Warner Bros. and Legendary are moving Denis Villeneueve‘s Dune off its December release date and will unveil the epic sci-fi movie on Oct. 1, 2021, Collider has exclusively learned."

https://collider.com/dune-movie-new-release-date-delayed-2021/?utm_campaign=collidersocial&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter

Add to the pile of victims of 2020.

Not the worst, sure.. But oh man I was waiting for this one for a long time.

[Saintheart]

Not completely related, but maybe of interest while we wait for the spice to start flowing again:

The guy who runs Stellar Australis (http://www.stellaraustralis.com/), his astrophotography site in the southern hemisphere, is a friend of mine and a longtime fan of Dune. He went and made a poster of actual pictures of the stars named by Frank Herbert in the novels, and compiled a poster of them. It's big and in the spoiler below:

http://www.stellaraustralis.com/wp-content/gallery/project-dune/Dune-Star-Systems-Poster-A1-Star-Map-Version-1024.jpg

All the pictures on his website are available for free, including the poster. The full-res version runs 14 MB and is available for download here (http://www.stellaraustralis.com/project-dune-stars/).

[Caledonian]

Is there any way to determine if the Big Dipper would appear roughly the same from Arrakis?

(It's sort of freaky that Arrakis is close enough to the former site of Earth for the night sky to be mostly the same... but very few people realize that they're next-door to the birthplace of humankind.)

[Mechalich]

(It's sort of freaky that Arrakis is close enough to the former site of Earth for the night sky to be mostly the same... but very few people realize that they're next-door to the birthplace of humankind.)

The night sky is dominated by a lot of very bright stars that can be seen from extremely far away. There are 78 stellar objects (stars plus brown dwarfs) within 5 parsecs of our Sun, but we can only see 9 of them with the naked eye. Most of the truly bright stars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_brightest_stars) we can see are giants that are hundreds of light years away and that would largely remain true within a sphere of a few hundred light years radius.

And 310 light years from Earth isn't exactly close by. There are millions of stars in a sphere 310 light years in radius.

[Dire_Flumph]

Is there any way to determine if the Big Dipper would appear roughly the same from Arrakis?

If Arrakis is 310 light years away? No. All of the stars in the Big Dipper are closer than that.

[Cikomyr2]

The night sky is dominated by a lot of very bright stars that can be seen from extremely far away. There are 78 stellar objects (stars plus brown dwarfs) within 5 parsecs of our Sun, but we can only see 9 of them with the naked eye. Most of the truly bright stars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_brightest_stars) we can see are giants that are hundreds of light years away and that would largely remain true within a sphere of a few hundred light years radius.

And 310 light years from Earth isn't exactly close by. There are millions of stars in a sphere 310 light years in radius.

Millions of stars in 310 light year radius of the sun?

I call horse****

[hamishspence]

The night sky is dominated by a lot of very bright stars that can be seen from extremely far away. There are 78 stellar objects (stars plus brown dwarfs) within 5 parsecs of our Sun, but we can only see 9 of them with the naked eye. Most of the truly bright stars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_brightest_stars) we can see are giants that are hundreds of light years away and that would largely remain true within a sphere of a few hundred light years radius.

And 310 light years from Earth isn't exactly close by. There are millions of stars in a sphere 310 light years in radius.According to Wikipedia, the local stellar density is 0.004 stars per cubic light year:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_density

A sphere with radius 310 light years, has a volume of over 124 million cubic light years. You're looking at roughly half a million stars in that volume.

So - not millions - but half a million. Still a lot.

[Caledonian]

A lot of them will be dwarfs that aren't even visible to the naked eye from Earth.

[hamishspence]

Stars as bright as our Sun would probably be invisible to the eye once you get to 100 light years away or so.

[DavidSh]

Stars as bright as our Sun would probably be invisible to the eye once you get to 100 light years away or so.
Let's see. The Sun has absolute magnitude1 4.83, which is how it would appear at 10 parsecs distance. 100 light years is about 30.66 parsecs. 3.066 squared is about 10, so it would 1/10th as bright at 100 light years as at 10 parsecs. Magnitudes are a log scale where the difference between 1st and 6th magnitude is a factor of 100, so a factor of 10 is 2.5 magnitudes. This gives apparent magnitude of 7.3 or so at that distance, which is indeed invisible to the naked eye.

Compare this with Sirius, at absolute magnitude of 1.4, and Rigel, at absolute magnitude -7.0, which would easily be visible at such distances.

---
1) The lower the magnitude, the brighter the star. This is a development of the original ranking system, where stars of "1st magnitude" were the brightest stars, and stars of 6th magnitude were the dimmest visible stars.

[Stattick]

I mainly remember him suggesting that someone should monitor the Fremen's precise movements and get a head count of how many there actually were, out in the desert. If they were dealing with some bands or an actual army.

And daddy Harkonen wouldn't have explained it to his son, but iirc, The Guild had a deal to keep prying eyes out of the deep desert. The Guild was smuggling Fremen harvested spice out of the deep desert, for their own usage. And when The Guild throws it's weight around, you do what they say, else you'll loose access to interplanetary travel.

[hamishspence]

Vladimir Harkonnen wouldn't have explained the "Guild deal" to his nephew Glossu Rabban - because he didn't know about it - the Guild don't tell anyone they're taking huge bribes from the Fremen.

[Cikomyr2]

Vladimir Harkonnen wouldn't have explained the "Guild deal" to his nephew Glossu Rabban - because he didn't know about it - the Guild don't tell anyone they're taking huge bribes from the Fremen.

Aaaand we go back to the analogy related to colonialism; where the corporate will behind the colonialist effort will undermine their own agenda just to pursue greed.

Because I think we can all agree that this secret deal is probably what bit the Guild the most in the long run.

[Caledonian]

What bit the Guild in the long run is its total unwillingness to take any risks that it couldn't foresee the outcomes of. Granted, that's why they were established in the first place - so that space travel would be predictable and safe - but they didn't so much as learn how to take a sandworm to another planet. They could easily have arranged to have all the Spice they wanted by creating new planets like Arrakis, but feared not being able to presciently know what the outcome of attempting to do so would be.

[hamishspence]

What bit the Guild in the long run is its total unwillingness to take any risks that it couldn't foresee the outcomes of. Granted, that's why they were established in the first place - so that space travel would be predictable and safe - but they didn't so much as learn how to take a sandworm to another planet. They could easily have arranged to have all the Spice they wanted by creating new planets like Arrakis, but feared not being able to presciently know what the outcome of attempting to do so would be.Didn't Leto II, in the books, say that taking sandworms from the desert and having them survive was vastly harder than it looked, which was why he wasn't worried about any of the attempts to do so, because they will always fail?

The quote in question was in Children of Dune:

Muriz came up behind Leto, said: "You stand on the boundary between fish and worm. Each of these canyons has its worm. This qanat has been opened and we will remove the fish presently to attract sandtrout."
"Of course," Leto said. "Holding pens. You sell sandtrout and worms off-planet."
"It was Muad'Dib's suggestion!"
"I know. But none of your worms or sandtrout survive for long away from Dune."
"Not yet," Muriz said. "But someday..."
"Not in ten thousand years," Leto said.

[Cikomyr2]

Didn't Leto II, in the books, say that taking sandworms from the desert and having them survive was vastly harder than it looked, which was why he wasn't worried about any of the attempts to do so, because they will always fail?

The quote in question was in Children of Dune:

Muriz came up behind Leto, said: "You stand on the boundary between fish and worm. Each of these canyons has its worm. This qanat has been opened and we will remove the fish presently to attract sandtrout."
"Of course," Leto said. "Holding pens. You sell sandtrout and worms off-planet."
"It was Muad'Dib's suggestion!"
"I know. But none of your worms or sandtrout survive for long away from Dune."
"Not yet," Muriz said. "But someday..."
"Not in ten thousand years," Leto said.

Didn't he had to engineer alterations on the sandworms during his life?

Btw, i don't remember how the Honore Matriarch managed to navigate without spice? They used a substitute?

[hamishspence]

His version of the sandworms apparently have more ganglia (making them smarter and more dangerous).


I'd speculate that the only reason a new "worm planet" can be created after the burning of Rakis by the Honored Matres, was because of the aforementioned changes - post-Leto sandworms are tougher and more tolerant, enabling this "Duneforming" to actually work.


After his death, there was a big boom in spice, ending the "lean times" (though harvesting it was trickier than in Paul's era because of the aforementioned smarter sandworms). That spice probably was used by those who "Scattered".

Relevant quote:
Stilgar was not yet convinced. "No more worms," he growled.
"Oh, the worms will come back," Ghanima assured him. "All will be dead within two hundred years, but they'll come back."
"How ..." Stilgar broke off.
Farad'n felt his mind awash in revelation. He knew what Ghanima would say before she spoke.
"The Guild will barely make it through the lean years, and only then because of its stockpiles and ours," Ghanima said. "But there'll be abundance after Kralizec. The worms will return after my brother goes into the sand."


The Honored Matres once talked about their spice substitute, adrenaline-based, manufactured through torturing their enemies - but it's not clear if they use it purely for making themselves more powerful and dangerous, or if they give it to their Navigators as well.

[Seppl]

At the end of God Emperor of Dune, the Ixians invented a naviagtion machine that works without spice. That is probably, what the vast majority of people in the Scattering use. By the time when the Honored Matres return, Spice is more interesting for its psychological and geriatric effects, less as an enabler for space travel.

[hamishspence]

I think navigation machines are painted as somewhat more risky and less reliable than Guild navigators - though I can't recall how much of that was Frank Herbert and how much of that was Brian Herbert.

A point was made at the end of God Emperor of how the Ixians cannot "make arafel" (which is another name for Kralizec).

I'd speculate that (at least in the context of the prequels) it means that the Ixians are no longer capable of making genuine thinking machines, only "mindless computers" which are useful rather than dangerous.


I think the Guild are specifically criticised by the Bene Gesserit for helping transport the Honored Matres to Arrakis - which might be a hint that however Honored Matres transport themselves, the Guild do it better.