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Greywander
2020-08-07, 03:41 PM
Creature types are a somewhat curious subject, and in some cases it can seem arbitrary which type a creature is filed under. For example, centaurs in the Monster Manual are monstrosities, while the centaurs in Ravnica and Theros are fey. IIRC, I've also heard that in previous editions of D&D some unicorns are fey, generally those found on the Material Plane or Feywild, while usually those found in the Upper Planes are celestials.

This subject has been brought up before, and last time I remember someone making the argument that a humanoid was just that: a bipedal, upright creature with two arms and two legs. I disagree. The Monster Manual does indeed say that humanoids are bipedal, but otherwise makes very little mention of the anatomical aspect of humanoids. Beyond that, the Monster Manual itself contains numerous examples that contradict this simple view of what makes a humanoid. Merfolk are humanoids, despite being definitely not bipedal. Apes are beasts, not humanoids, despite how similar anatomically they are to many other humanoid races. There are many creatures in the Monster Manual that are anatomical humanoids, but are classed as some other creature type, such as celestial or fiend. And then, of course, there is the entire category of giants. Giants are not a subtype of humanoid, as D&D 5e already has a system for dealing with creature subtypes (e.g. "humanoid (orc)", or "fiend (devil)"), rather giants are entirely distinct from humanoids.

What we can infer from this is that anatomy has no actual bearing on a creature's creature type, it just so happens that most humanoids are also anatomical humanoids. Another clue that this is the case is that certain spells treat different creature types differently. Charm Person only works on humanoids, not on giants, and not even on beasts. Protection from Evil and Good works on a number of creatures that are anatomical humanoids, but not on creatures with the humanoid creature type.

What, then, is a creature type? What does it mean? What is the difference between a centaur that is a monstrosity from one that is a fey? What separates beasts from humanoids? I'm of the opinion that a creature's creature type tells us something about the fundamental nature of that creature. Understanding the nature of each creature type can help us understand why two similar creatures have a different type, as well as when a creature's type should change (e.g. fallen angels becoming fiends).

For a rather large chunk of creature types, native plane seems to be one of the primary identifying pieces of information. Celestials are native to the Upper Planes, fiends are native to the Lower Planes, elementals are native to the Elemental Planes, fey are native to the Feywild.

Are there exceptions to this? That depends on whether we're describing or defining. I can say that celestials tend to be native to one of the Upper Planes, or I can say that a creature that is native to the Upper Planes (possibly with additional qualifiers) is a celestial. In the second case, asking if there are any celestials that aren't native to the Upper Planes is akin to asking if there are any bachelors that are married; by definition, a married man is not a bachelor. This doesn't mean that any creature native to the Upper Planes is automatically a celestial, but it does mean that any creature that is a celestial is native to the Upper Planes.

For fiends and celestials, specifically, they also seem to carry another part to their definition. Namely, they seem to be heavily associated with the alignments of Evil and Good, respectively. One could say that celestials are the physical manifestation of Good, while fiends are the physical manifestation of Evil. There are issues with this, as, while rare, non-Good celestials do seem to exist. This does imply that there might be some mechanism by which a celestial could become a fiend, and vice versa, but it's not clear if switching alignments is sufficient or if there's more to it than that. This seems to describe a fundamental part of the nature of fiends and celestials, but that nature seems to contain a certain mutability. All celestials start off as Good, but can be subverted to Evil, for example. If you encounter an Evil celestial, then it's because there is something really wrong with them. Being anything other than Good is unnatural for a celestial, even if it is possible.

Related to native planes are the aberrations. These seem to trace their origins back to the Far Realm, but it's not clear if this is their native plane, of if they even have a native plane. Aberrations might not be restricted in their native planes, with some aberrations being native to one plane while others are native to a different plane. The only common thread seems to be originating in the Far Realm. None of the other creature types came from the Far Realm, setting aberrations apart from all others. What, exactly, the significance of this is, I'm not sure.

Continuing the thread of native planes, we come at last to the Material Plane. Both beasts and humanoids are native to the Material Plane. I'm going to argue that monstrosities are also native to the Material Plane, as otherwise it would likely just have the creature type associated with its native plane. Beasts and humanoids are both natural creatures, whereas the defining trait of monstrosities is that they are unnatural, whether they were the result of a magic experiment or corrupted by evil (or good?) magical energy. Depending on what creation myth your setting uses, all creatures might have been created by something, but monstrosities always fall outside of acceptable methods of creation.

But what is the difference between a beast and a humanoid? Where is the line between them? This is something that could vary setting-to-setting. In some settings, it might be sapience/intelligence, however, the Awaken spell does not change a beast's type to humanoid, and intelligent beasts such as giant eagles and giant elk exist. Perhaps humanoids have a soul, while beasts do not. Do they have a different afterlife, or possibly do beasts have no afterlife at all? Perhaps the gods can derive power from the worship of humanoids, but not from the worship of beasts. Right now, there doesn't seem to be a specific definition of what makes someone a humanoid, but the particular definition you use could have huge implications. Perhaps there are a number of creatures that should be dual-typed as humanoid/X (e.g. liches being humanoid/undead), and the loss of your humanoid status (e.g. by becoming undead) might carry some drastic implications.

And then we come to the mysterious dragons and giants. Like with aberrations, there doesn't seem to be a clear definition of what these creatures are, or what their defining features are, aside from some kind of shared lineage. A dragon is a dragon because their parents where dragons, and likewise a giant is a giant because their parents were giants. One can imagine that at some point there existed a primordial dragon from which all others descended, and likewise a primordial giant. A giant is not just a big humanoid, and you could conceivably have a "giant" who was as small as a gnome. There is something fundamental that makes a creature a giant, and while this correlates to size, it doesn't directly depend on it. Likewise, not all dragons have wings, not all dragons are reptiles, and not all dragons have breath weapons, and yet there's something intrinsic to them that makes them dragons. You could create a giant, flying, fire-breathing lizard, and it would be a monstrosity, not a dragon. Giants and dragons are both ancient races, and their origins and nature are possibly beyond mortal ken. Despite this, we "know one when we see one", and we can recognize that there is a fundamental difference between these creatures and others.

Now we come to creature types that are more... biological in their definitions. Constructs are generally built, not born. However, the azer is an elemental, and warforged are humanoids. Constructs are typically non-biological, though see the flesh golem. Constructs, it seems, are somewhat difficult to nail down. Perhaps the defining trait of a construct is that they are not truly alive, but merely given a semblance of life. Robots, if you will. But what if you made a robot that was truly alive? Would it be a construct, or a humanoid, or what? I suppose the warforged gives us our answer, but perhaps that is merely a function of them having a biological element to their construction (namely, wood).

Plants are pretty straightforward, including not just plants but fungus as well. It's probably safe to say that plants include anything vaguely plant-like, such as coral and sponges, despite these both actually being animals, but would exclude things like giant viruses and amoebas. "Plants + fungus" is too narrow, while "anything not an animal" is too broad. This could be a topic of heavy debate, I just don't think most people care enough about it. Just about every creature you encounter is either (a) clearly not a plant type, or (b) clearly a plant or fungus, and the gray area is rather narrow and not of interest to most people.

Now for perhaps the oddest creature type of all: the ooze. Why does this exist? What makes something an ooze? Why aren't these just monstrosities? Was it really necessary to create an entire creature type for one very specific niche of creature? As far as I can tell, this is a legacy creature type, from an era where creature types had intrinsic qualities. In D&D 5e, it's not uncommon for creatures of the same type to share certain traits, but those traits are always bestowed independently of their creature type. For example, most undead don't need air, food, drink, or sleep (but see vampires, which only don't need air), are immune to poison (except, again, vampires) and exhaustion (except vampires and zombies). In other words, previous editions used to have special rules attached to different creature types, while 5e does not. You could change all oozes to monstrosities and virtually nothing would change. I don't even know if there are any spells, class features, or other abilities that specifically interact with oozes or monstrosities, aside from the ranger's Favored Enemy.

Lastly are the undead. These guys are kind of weird, because there exist both "native" undead, i.e. creatures that were always undead and never alive, and "artificial" undead, i.e. creatures that were once living but became undead. Most native undead seem to be native to either the Shadowfell or the Negative Energy Plane (see the nightwalker), whereas artificial undead presumably retain their previous native plane. The defining trait of undead seems to be an alternative biology, which often includes the removal of all biological needs such as food or sleep. This altered biology makes many healing methods ineffective on them, requiring them to find alternative methods of healing. In fact, undead start to look awfully similar to constructs once you analyze their actual abilities, which just makes the flesh golem even weirder. Why is the flesh golem a construct while a zombie is undead? Another defining quality of undead seems to be an inversion of energy; undead seem to react to negative energy the same way a living creature reacts to positive energy, and vice versa, though it's debatable if this is still true in 5e.

I can't help but feel like undead should be used as a subtype, much like "shapechanger" is used. A lich would then be a "humanoid (undead)". The exception would be native undead, who would just have the undead type. But perhaps there's something intrinsic to being undead that is mutually exclusive to being humanoid. Unfortunately, our concept of undead seems to be mostly descriptive rather than definitive, so it's hard to say for certain what fundamentally makes someone undead, as opposed to simply being immortal and not needing to eat or sleep.

So what does this all mean?

Once you start taking creature types as definitive, rather than descriptive, you can end up assigning creature types to creatures that fit the definition but not the description.

I've already mentioned small giants. As long as a creature is descended from giants, and retains whatever that fundamental essence is that defines giants, they can be any size. Goliaths are related to giants, but lack that fundamental essence, instead becoming humanoids. This seems to be a common theme with humanoids that breed with other creature types: the offspring retains certain aspects of the non-humanoid parent, but becomes a humanoid.

By understanding what the fundamental component of a creature type is, you can end up with something that doesn't seem to fit, but it does match the definition. A good example of this would be non-humanoid creatures that think, act, and, fundamentally, are humanoids in all but anatomy.

Anthropomorphic animals are a good example of this. We already have official examples with things like tabaxi and lizardfolk, but these examples are highly anthropomorphized. What about a creature that is very unanthropomorphic? The best example I can think of are the ponies from MLP:FiM; anatomically they are basically stylized cartoon horses, but mentally they think and act like humans would. Despite their anatomy, they are clearly not beasts. They'd probably best be classified as fey, but if we assumed we had a race like the ponies, but native to the Material Plane, I'd argue that they should be classed as humanoids. Regardless of their physical appearance, they still possess whatever it is that fundamentally makes a creature a humanoid rather than a beast, whether that is sapience, a soul, or what have you.

This doesn't just apply to sapient animal races, but also explains why merfolk are humanoids, and it opens up the possibility of classing centaurs as humanoids. You could have a creature that is very different anatomically from a humanoid, but still class it as a humanoid, like a race of jellyfish-people.

However, all of this has made me start wondering if perhaps the whole "creature type" think should be reworked entirely. This could be as simple as splitting it into "native plane" and "fundamental nature", or it might just be a series of clearly defined labels that can be combined as necessary to fully describe a creature. A celestial fiend might be kind of weird, but one could easily imagine something like a celestial beast, which acts like a normal beast except it is native to the Upper Planes. It's not entirely clear if creature types are merely meta classifications to make it easier for players and DMs to play the game, of if they are real in-universe qualities, but it seems to be the latter. This is why the current system kind of confuses me; labeling something as, say, a "celestial" actually means something, in-universe, but I'm not entirely clear what it actually is or how that differs from a different creature type. It just seems to be a hodgepodge of legacy material that is vaguely meaningful and somewhat useful.

TL;DR, talking cats can be humanoids, giants can be smol, why does ooze even exist, and what is it is even the difference even between construct and undead. Sponsored by Ravine: Shadow Ledges. Thanks for listening to my TED talk, don't forget to like, comment, and subscribe. Eat your vegatles.

Anyway, I don't know why I spent so much time typing this out. Probably I'm just procrastinating doing something else I need to be doing. But since I went through the effort, you might as well tell my your thoughts.

C-Dude
2020-08-07, 07:35 PM
I would argue that a humanoid needs the following characteristics:
> A soul
> Opposable Dexterity (the ability to manipulate objects in fine detail with hands... or whatever other appendages)
> Origin on the prime material plane.

Beasts probably only need lack the opposable dexterity to qualify for the label, though the two categories could probably safely be combined into "material creature".

Giants... that's a tough one. It might be argued for Dragons that they originate from outside the system or predate the formation of the elemental/outside wheel of planes, but it's hard to make the same definition apply to giants. Unless there's some weird lore that giants form when outsiders from opposite elemental planes hybridize, I'd say the label is probably archaic (like you said about the Ooze) and could be discarded for Humanoid or "Material Creature".

An interesting read, thank you.

Wizard_Lizard
2020-08-07, 07:52 PM
Origin in the material plane is debatable. Sea elves are humanoids iirc and they’re from the plane of water, as an example.

Greywander
2020-08-07, 08:41 PM
Origin in the material plane is debatable. Sea elves are humanoids iirc and they’re from the plane of water, as an example.
IIRC, some aarakocra are from the Elemental Plane of Air as well. Does this make them native to that plane, or is that simply where they live? It doesn't really tell us. That said, I'll agree that being native to the Material Plane is more of a descriptive quality than a definitive quality for humanoids. Although, this could change depending on how you define what a humanoid is. But if you define a humanoid as being native to the Material Plane, it opens up the possibility of a creature that is like a humanoid, but native to a different plane.


I would argue that a humanoid needs the following characteristics:
> A soul
> Opposable Dexterity (the ability to manipulate objects in fine detail with hands... or whatever other appendages)
> Origin on the prime material plane.
If you cut off someone's hands, do they stop being a humanoid? If this were a sci-fi setting, then this would certainly be a requirement for an alien species to qualify as "advanced". It doesn't matter how smart they are, they're not going to build space ships if they don't have some way to manipulate tools. But in a fantasy setting, I feel like the definition of a humanoid is more philosophical, or spiritual.

This does remind me, though, that humanoids have another quality: the possess both a body and a soul. For outsiders, such as celestials and fiends, they are just a soul, and that soul manifests physically. If you kill them, you destroy their soul, and they can't be resurrected. If you kill a humanoid, their soul separates from their body and travels to the Outer Planes. So a beast might be a body without a soul, while an outsider is a soul without a body, and only the humanoid has both.

Weird tangent, but D&D also has "animating spirits", which are not the same thing as a soul. When you cast Speak with Dead, you are calling up the creature's animating spirit, not their soul. From what I can tell, the animated spirit retains the memories, but can't learn new information, while the soul can learn things but can't remember them. Elementals, for example, are souls that got sidetracked on their way to the Outer Planes and absorbed enough elemental energy; they might retain certain qualities they had in their previous life, but they retain none of their memories and are essentially a new person. Also, your typical mindless undead have an animating spirit, but not a soul, which is why they can remember what they knew in life but are otherwise basically necromantic robots.


Giants... that's a tough one. It might be argued for Dragons that they originate from outside the system or predate the formation of the elemental/outside wheel of planes, but it's hard to make the same definition apply to giants. Unless there's some weird lore that giants form when outsiders from opposite elemental planes hybridize, I'd say the label is probably archaic (like you said about the Ooze) and could be discarded for Humanoid or "Material Creature".
I don't think giants are archaic, and as a creature type it's certainly a lot more useful than ooze is. Giants form societies and can be reasoned with; oozes are usually little more than one combat encounter every few dungeons. As for collapsing giants into humanoids, this would depend on what exactly the fundamental nature of a giant is, and how it differs from that of a humanoid. If they are essentially the same, then sure. I'd like to class giants and dragons as embodiments of Law and Chaos, like celestials and fiends are for Good and Evil, but this doesn't bear out, as there are both Lawful and Chaotic creatures of both types. Still, both types of creatures have an air of "primordial-ness", as if they existed before any other creatures walked the Earth (which I think is actually true for giants, not sure about dragons).


An interesting read, thank you.
You're welcome. Does the occasional bolded word increase readability? I previewed part of the OP before bolding anything, and it looked like just a giant wall of text, but the bolded words seem to break it up a lot better.

I'm no D&D expert by any means, and not super familiar with older editions, so I don't know how on the money I am. But hopefully this will provoke some discussion or get people thinking about it. Maybe someone more knowledgeable than I will pop in to shed further light on the significance of creature types, though I'm half afraid that it would only be to confirm that they are, indeed, pretty much arbitrary.

Wizard_Lizard
2020-08-07, 08:47 PM
Also as a creature type, I think all humanoids are either small medium, or in maybe some cases tiny or large? Perhaps that could be a prerequisite and a reason Why giants are excluded.
Or giants could be excluded simply because they have a vastly different biology, I think most humanoids would have all of their organs in roughly the same places and be similar in most regards, but giants may be different completely?

No brains
2020-08-07, 08:58 PM
Does the DM want it to be affected by low-level spells that end in 'Person'? If yes, it's a humanoid.

Luccan
2020-08-07, 09:09 PM
On the subject of celestials being non-Good, are the ones you're referring to from the MTG books? Because I'm not sure those should count when considering creature type in the rest of D&D cosmology, given MTG cosmos runs on an ethics/morality system entirely divorced from D&D's alignments.

Regardless, creature type is particularly muddy this edition due to the changes they made to creature types. Humanoids have always been fuzzy, though, whether trying to distinguish them from humanoid shaped creatures that don't seem to meet any other requirement or humanoid shaped creatures that are definitely from another plane, but they aren't Outsiders or Elementals for some reason, just Humanoids. I can't explain Centaur PCs except that MTG is a separate multiverse and your probably shouldn't use the MM centaurs if you're running Theros or Ravnica.

C-Dude
2020-08-07, 09:43 PM
If you cut off someone's hands, do they stop being a humanoid? If this were a sci-fi setting, then this would certainly be a requirement for an alien species to qualify as "advanced". It doesn't matter how smart they are, they're not going to build space ships if they don't have some way to manipulate tools. But in a fantasy setting, I feel like the definition of a humanoid is more philosophical, or spiritual.Well, at first I thought that was the only discernible difference between humans and beasts. However, looking at the SRD, every beast (with only two exceptions--Giant Eagle and Cranium Rat) is unaligned. Perhaps beasts cannot have alignments, or cannot have alignments on a certain axis (likely law/chaos, or good/evil if you disregard the two exceptions as wrongly-flagged).


I don't think giants are archaic, and as a creature type it's certainly a lot more useful than ooze is. Giants form societies and can be reasoned with; oozes are usually little more than one combat encounter every few dungeons. As for collapsing giants into humanoids, this would depend on what exactly the fundamental nature of a giant is, and how it differs from that of a humanoid. If they are essentially the same, then sure. I'd like to class giants and dragons as embodiments of Law and Chaos, like celestials and fiends are for Good and Evil, but this doesn't bear out, as there are both Lawful and Chaotic creatures of both types. Still, both types of creatures have an air of "primordial-ness", as if they existed before any other creatures walked the Earth (which I think is actually true for giants, not sure about dragons).Actually, Modrons are embodiment of Law... they're strange geometric metalic creatures (though not all of them are mechanical) who unfailingly follow the orders of their immediate superiors (a more complex Modron). Slaadi are the embodiment of Chaos (or at least they started out that way), and are generally bad news (being contagious and all, and unpredictable, and violent).


You're welcome. Does the occasional bolded word increase readability? I previewed part of the OP before bolding anything, and it looked like just a giant wall of text, but the bolded words seem to break it up a lot better.It does help me keep track of which paragraphs I've already read, since it takes a while to parse a long post like this.

Wizard_Lizard
2020-08-08, 01:40 AM
On the subject of celestials being non-Good, are the ones you're referring to from the MTG books? Because I'm not sure those should count when considering creature type in the rest of D&D cosmology, given MTG cosmos runs on an ethics/morality system entirely divorced from D&D's alignments.


Not sure if it’s what you are looking for but radiant idols are evil celestial s in erftlw

Luccan
2020-08-08, 02:28 AM
Not sure if it’s what you are looking for but radiant idols are evil celestial s in erftlw

Yeah, that answers it. It seems to be them and one named celestial that's gone mad. Notably, radiant idols are corrupted, not created. They're specifically fallen, indicating no celestials naturally form that are evil or even neutral, outside MTG crossovers.

Unoriginal
2020-08-08, 03:53 AM
As the Monster Manual indicates:



Humanoids are the main peoples of the D&D world, both civilized and savage, including humans and a tremendous variety of other species. They have language and culture, few if any innate magical abilities (though most humanoids can learn spellcasting), and a bipedal form.

while Beasts are defined as:


nonhumanoid creatures that are a natural part of the fantasy ecology. Some of them have magical powers, but most are unintelligent and lack any society or language. Beasts include all varieties of ordinary animals, dinosaurs, and giant versions of animals.

And the Giant description says:


Giants tower over humans and their kind. They are humanlike in shape, though some have multiple heads (ettins) or deformities (fomorians).

So in other words:

An humanoid is a living, non-construct, smaller-than-Large, bipedal sapient being with four limbs, a torso and a head, capable of language and culture, and with only a small amount of innate magic or innate influence by the planar or natural forces.


Note that the writers expressed regrets at having kept the 5e Gnolls as humanoid rather than fiends, given how much demonic nature the 5e versions have.

Chronos
2020-08-08, 07:54 AM
Are there any giants that are Medium or smaller, or any humanoids that are Large or larger? It could be that size is the only defining difference between them.

Unoriginal
2020-08-08, 08:24 AM
Are there any giants that are Medium or smaller, or any humanoids that are Large or larger? It could be that size is the only defining difference between them.

Well lore-wise Giantkin was created by the same deity (or at least the same pantheon) before the humanoids. But in term of body composition size is the main difference, yes.

JackPhoenix
2020-08-08, 02:36 PM
Are there any giants that are Medium or smaller, or any humanoids that are Large or larger? It could be that size is the only defining difference between them.

That would be no for the giants, and yes for humanoids (Sahuagin Baron and Lizardfolk Render from GoS are large, though the later is explicitly changed by magic).

Unoriginal
2020-08-08, 03:32 PM
That would be no for the giants, and yes for humanoids (Sahuagin Baron and Lizardfolk Render from GoS are large, though the later is explicitly changed by magic).

The Sahuagin Baron's appearance is said to be a mutation, I think.

Segev
2020-08-09, 04:54 AM
At least in the Forgotten Realms, giants are subject to the Ordning. Maybe that is definitive?

Unoriginal
2020-08-09, 05:11 AM
At least in the Forgotten Realms, giants are subject to the Ordning. Maybe that is definitive?

It's more a deity-mandated social order than anything else. It is noted that some giants don't respect it, like those who start worshiping demons.