How do you kill mindflayer with odds really stacked against you?

[Aletios]

We playing campaing and because of lots of bad calls and just generally bad luck, it's likely to end in our defeat.
Basically, one thing let to another, we're standing before the boss-room, with one mind-flayer and 4 custom cultists (with AC around 17) standing in somewhat close proximity inside the room.

Our party is down on the resources almost completely - we only had a short rest, so assume there's no or potions spells available.
We have the basic bear-barian (barbarian bear totem-4/ moon druid-2 (with 3 levels of exhaustion))
Elemental monk 6 (with 1 level of exhaustion and truly immovable rod)
Rogue 1/Lore Bard 5 (with 1 level of exhaustion)
Vengeance Paladin 6(with no exhaustion, but no resources either. Has +2 magic weapons from a scroll. The Rogue/Bard in consentrating on it)
Warlock 3(hexblade, blade pact)/Fighter 1/Rogue 2 (with no exhaustion and full resources, also has one scroll of ice storm and winged boots)
And 2 NPCs. One is archer, the other looks similiar to swashbuckler.

DM will, most likely, let some of us stealth into the room, after our tanks draw attention, but beyond that I've no idea what we can do.

Any suggestions on tactics, tips&tricks are welcome

[OldTrees1]

Don't think, just attack! Quickly before it uses mind control!

More seriously:
Everyone flank the Illithid (Mindflayer). This puts everyone within 10ft of your Paladin, minimizes the number that the Illithid can hit with a cone, puts pressure on the illithid, and makes AoEs also hit the illithid.

Everyone attack the Illithid. From the sound of that encounter design, the Illithid is a good weak point to exploit. They are probably the majority of the power in the room. If you can dispatch them quickly it can turn the tide.

[Eldariel]

Split up. Focus the Mind Flayer and use ranged attacks on anyone capable; try to avoid giving it good AOE for Mind Blast (it's a huge Cone).

Ignore the cultists/use them as body blocks for Mind Blast AOE (it likely won't care so this will disable the cultists for you).

Mind Flayers are strong but quite feeble physically. With what you've got (assuming no spells), all you can do is try to drop it/force it to escape before it gets you all (you should have enough gas for this with everyone focusing). It has Dominate available too, but that's mostly worse than Mind Blast (Concentration is easy to break). It has Plane Shift but it probably saves that to escape if need be (if it doesn't, prepare for one character potentially getting instagibbed/try to give it an excuse to target the Pally who might actually make the save).

[Eldariel]

Don't think, just attack! Quickly before it uses mind control!

More seriously:
Everyone flank the Illithid (Mindflayer). This puts everyone within 10ft of your Paladin, minimizes the number that the Illithid can hit with a cone, puts pressure on the illithid, and makes AoEs also hit the illithid.

Everyone attack the Illithid. From the sound of that encounter design, the Illithid is a good weak point to exploit. They are probably the majority of the power in the room. If you can dispatch them quickly it can turn the tide.

The only prob with surrounding the Illithid is, it can move back, take some AoOs and then the whole party is conveniently bunched up for Mind Blast. This is why I'd recommend splitting up at range instead, to make it able to hit two targets at once at best.

EDIT: Alternatively surround it and Grapple it. It can end the Grapple by Mind Blasting the grappler, but that's okay since then it doesn't get to Mind Blast the whole party. In fact, I recommend doing just that. Sounds better than the previous alternatives, letting the Pally protect everyone while limiting Mind Blast.

The only hitch is the cultist potentially preventing surround or dragging the Grappler away. Shove + Grapple probably not worth it due to low Illithid AC and the fairly reliable Mind Blast + move away option.

Oh and if you use squares, make sure to position the Paladin in an adjacent, not a diagonal square to let it affect all allies around the Mind Flayer. And hope there is no room to Levitate (though again, breaking its Concentration should be easy).

[Aletios]

Yeah, I was thinking about starting the fight with hexblade casting curse(from stealth), then hex + Ice Storm on mindflayer.
Bard using inspirations on hexblade beforehand and cutting words on mindflayer to make sure first round sucks for him as much as possible, then following by focusing him with all we've got before he'll get a chance to use mind-control, but I'm not sure that'll be enough.
Btw, is it a good idea at all to use Ice storm's scroll on him? He does have magic resistance.

Is there any mechanics that could incapacitate him in some way, or prevent him from using his jedi mind tricks?

Most of the charactres are made for melee, with bard being semi-useless in combat, relying only on her spells (which were wasted) and inspirations.
That means mindflayer has all the chances to stun at least 3 characters for 10 rounds (be it with save-throw at the end of the turn), and I really don't like it.

EDIT:
Thank you for mentioning grapple. It may actually just do the trick

[MrStabby]

Pull back. Recover resources. Reduce exhaustion. If you can.

Worst case, secure an exit route and make a withdrawal plan before you go in.

[Unoriginal]

Important question: does the Elemental Monk have Fist of the Unbroken Air?



Is there any mechanics that could incapacitate him in some way, or prevent him from using his jedi mind tricks?

Stunning Strike.

I wouldn't grapple with a Mind Flayer, it puts you in brain-eating range.

[MaxWilson]

Yeah, I was thinking about starting the fight with hexblade casting curse(from stealth), then hex + Ice Storm on mindflayer.


Watch out, Ice Storm creates difficult terrain that might prevent your allies from being able to close with and surround the Mind Flayer, if that's still your plan.

Frankly, as long as you guys mostly avoid getting all hit by the same Mind Blast you're probably going to be just fine. Use total cover if possible, doors and walls and whatnot.

[Unoriginal]

Can the Mind Flayer and the cultists escape by another path, or is your group blocking the only exit to the boss room?

[Eldariel]

Can the Mind Flayer and the cultists escape by another path, or is your group blocking the only exit to the boss room?

Mind Flayer always has Plane Shift.

[Aletios]

Important question: does the Elemental Monk have Fist of the Unbroken Air?



Stunning Strike.

I wouldn't grapple with a Mind Flayer, it puts you in brain-eating range.

Not sure, but probably not. He was going for fire spells.

Stunning strike sounds really usefull. Would it help if warlock will target mindflayer's CON with hex?



"Tactical retreat" isn't an option.
Cultists going all-in, attacking the city. I'll spare you unnecessary details, but if we won't kill mindflayer right here, right now, campaign ends. If we die, campaign ends as well.

Regarding other exits, I'm not sure. The session has ended just as we opend the doors to some kind of throne room.
If I had to guess, I'd say you could escape through windows, but other than that - no.

[Mikal]

Retreat until you can come back and strike again?

[Unoriginal]

Not sure, but probably not. He was going for fire spells.

Stunning strike sounds really usefull. Would it help if warlock will target mindflayer's CON with hex?



"Tactical retreat" isn't an option.
Cultists going all-in, attacking the city. I'll spare you unnecessary details, but if we won't kill mindflayer right here, right now, campaign ends. If we die, campaign ends as well.

Regarding other exits, I'm not sure. The session has ended just as we opend the doors to some kind of throne room.
If I had to guess, I'd say you could escape through windows, but other than that - no.

Well if the Monk had Fist of the Unbroken Air, my advice would be for them to rush within 30ft of the Mind Flayer, then use FotUA while spending all of their ki points, for a massive 7d10 damage attack vs the Mind Flayer's STR save (half damage if saved against). With the archer and the Warlock (with Eldritch Blast or a ranged weapon, whichever is better for them) also targeting the Mind Flayer, that'd be enough to kill the boss on the first round if you have decent rolls.

But if the Monk doesn't have it like you said is the most likely, then the tactic to use widely depends on what they can actually do.

[Eldariel]

Well if the Monk had Fist of the Unbroken Air, my advice would be for them to rush within 30ft of the Mind Flayer, then use FotUA while spending all of their ki points, for a massive 7d10 damage attack vs the Mind Flayer's STR save (half damage if saved against). With the archer and the Warlock (with Eldritch Blast or a ranged weapon, whichever is better for them) also targeting the Mind Flayer, that'd be enough to kill the boss on the first round if you have decent rolls.

But if the Monk doesn't have it like you said is the most likely, then the tactic to use widely depends on what they can actually do.

I'd much rather just have others try to Shove it and then have Monk unload with Flurry + Stun. Trying to Stun it with a lot of dice feels way more reliable than trying to nuke it within a single turn.

[loki_ragnarock]

Not sure, but probably not. He was going for fire spells.

Stunning strike sounds really usefull. Would it help if warlock will target mindflayer's CON with hex?


Not especially. Hex doesn't impact saving throws. The only ability check that might be worthwhile is strength, because then at least when it grapples it's on the same basic level as the rest of you exhausted adventuring fools.

If you've had a short rest, that paladin is definitely going to want to throw down a vow of enmity, because that's the only resource he has. Hope for a crit. Alternatively, he goes after the Flayer has grappled up on someone, he's going to want to spend all of his attacks trying to use the push action to get the flayer off that person; when a Flayer grapples, the next round is death, and preventing that death becomes paramount. Since the paladin is the only person in the party that's likely strength based and not crippled with exhaustion, he's your go to life saver.

Your monk is definitely going to want to go straight for the flayer and spend all of his ki points round one on flurry and stunning fist. Hope for a successful stun. Of all the abilities ya'll have right now, this is the one the Flayer is most susceptible to. If he can go first, get in play, and pull off a successful stun, then alot of the stress for this encounter will melt away.

Since overwhelming offense is about the only thing that'll save you, your bard is going to want to throw down all but one of his bardic inspiration dice *before* you kick in the door; the paladin and the monk are the high priority allies. The monk needs to hit because he alone can trivialize this encounter. The paladin needs the boost to either hit or save an ass, as the situation dictates. The last one is for an emergency use of cutting words. As for concentrating on a scroll of magic weapon, that's only the best option if he didn't take bless as one of his bonus spells. There's a bunch of spells that might be useful here, but giving a plus two to attacks to the person who can give themselves advantage this fight might not be the best thing to concentrate on right now depending on the spells available.

Your bearbaruid will want to precast longstrider on himself and the paladin if possible. It's a small edge but you need every one you can get. He'll also want to reckless attack every possible instance, if only to cancel the disadvantage from exhaustion. That many levels of exhaustion mean he's probably not going to be a key contributor for this fight. Half speed and disadvantage on saves is going to be crushing in a scenario where mobility and saving throws are going to come up. He can mitigate some of the speed problems with a combination of longstrider and a high mobility wildshape... like an Axebeak or a direwolf or the better option. An elk or lion is better for the riders (both can knock prone), a warhorse is better for the raw speed and isn't a terrible damage dealer. But wildshape will help overcome the huge speed penalty that comes with exhaustion. That said, there isn't much he can do to help with saves but cleave to the paladin.

The Wighterogue should use hex in combination with eldritch blast to generate the most number of attacks possible. Stay at range, but use your mobility to keep the minions between yourself and the Flayer. This will make you a less tempting target for a mind blast, or help to take the minions if you are. If there's a second round, pop your hexblade curse and hope for a crit.

NPC archer should go left where the Wighterrogue goes right, but follow the same pattern, interjecting minions between themselves and the Flayer.
NPC swashbuckler should run up and stab the Flayer with wild abandon.

Most of the party has disadvantage on initiative. That's a real bummer. Stealth is going to be difficult, going first is going to be difficult. You sort of need to do both. If the Flayer wins initiative, things are going to look bad for you. Stunned party members will be easy pickings not just for the flayer but for the minions. If your bard has enhance ability, the bard concentrating on that for the monk to mitigate the disadvantage to initiative might be a better use than the magic weapon scroll.

Disadvantage on initiative is the killer here. If your druid has guidance, cast it on the monk for the +1d4 initiative. It's not negating disadvantage, but it might be the best you can reasonably muster.

[Unoriginal]

I'd much rather just have others try to Shove it and then have Monk unload with Flurry + Stun. Trying to Stun it with a lot of dice feels way more reliable than trying to nuke it within a single turn.

While I would definitively agree with you in most circumstances, or if it was a solo boss, this setup make so the four cultists can likely kill a lvl 6 monk in 2 rounds if they see said Monk hammer at their boss. And the Mind Flayer can easily escape if given even one turn past the "alright I have to take those adventurers seriously" stage, or just lay waste on them if they decide to fight. Meanwhile Fist of the Unbroken Air targets the Illithid where they're the weakest and would likely make a huge dent int the boss's HPs.


Now Stunning Strike + Flurry of Blows would still be good if everyone piles up on the boss immediately, and you're right it's the most reliable tactic overall, we have to take into account how a long battle is going to hurt the PCs more than the enemies here.

[daremetoidareyo]

Not sure, but probably not. He was going for fire spells.

Stunning strike sounds really usefull. Would it help if warlock will target mindflayer's CON with hex?



"Tactical retreat" isn't an option.
Cultists going all-in, attacking the city. I'll spare you unnecessary details, but if we won't kill mindflayer right here, right now, campaign ends. If we die, campaign ends as well.

Regarding other exits, I'm not sure. The session has ended just as we opend the doors to some kind of throne room.
If I had to guess, I'd say you could escape through windows, but other than that - no.

How high up are you?

[Unoriginal]

I have to say, though, that the odds aren't THAT stacked against the PCs unless the cultists or the Mind Flayer are way stronger than expected.

7 combatants each landing 1 attack on a Mind Flayer is likely to put the boss at death's door, with one more attack needed to kill them, for example.

What makes this fight tricky is how depending on how close the Mind Flayer starts the fight they could be safe from such concerns.


OP, after reflection, if the Monk has Fangs of the Fire Snake, I'm definitively suggesting using FotFS alonside with Flurry of Blow and Stunning Strike, and spending the extra ki point for extra damage each time they hit.

Also the one with the flying boots should make it a priority to not stay in a zone where they can get hit by the Illithid's Mind Blast alongside the rest of the party. In general the whole group should try to be as scattered as possible or as close of the Mind Flayer as possible to minimize how many people can be hit by the Mind Blast.

[LibraryOgre]

We playing campaing and because of lots of bad calls and just generally bad luck, it's likely to end in our defeat.
Basically, one thing let to another, we're standing before the boss-room, with one mind-flayer and 4 custom cultists (with AC around 17) standing in somewhat close proximity inside the room.

Our party is down on the resources almost completely - we only had a short rest, so assume there's no or potions spells available.
We have the basic bear-barian (barbarian bear totem-4/ moon druid-2 (with 3 levels of exhaustion))
Elemental monk 6 (with 1 level of exhaustion and truly immovable rod)
Rogue 1/Lore Bard 5 (with 1 level of exhaustion)
Vengeance Paladin 6(with no exhaustion, but no resources either. Has +2 magic weapons from a scroll. The Rogue/Bard in consentrating on it)
Warlock 3(hexblade, blade pact)/Fighter 1/Rogue 2 (with no exhaustion and full resources, also has one scroll of ice storm and winged boots)
And 2 NPCs. One is archer, the other looks similiar to swashbuckler.

DM will, most likely, let some of us stealth into the room, after our tanks draw attention, but beyond that I've no idea what we can do.

Any suggestions on tactics, tips&tricks are welcome

You listen to your Uncle Vlad, of House Jhereg.

"No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.”

Get your Hexblade into position and jam a knife in his back... maybe stealing that +2 weapon from the Paladin, first.

[OldTrees1]

The only prob with surrounding the Illithid is, it can move back, take some AoOs and then the whole party is conveniently bunched up for Mind Blast. This is why I'd recommend splitting up at range instead, to make it able to hit two targets at once at best.

EDIT: Alternatively surround it and Grapple it. It can end the Grapple by Mind Blasting the grappler, but that's okay since then it doesn't get to Mind Blast the whole party. In fact, I recommend doing just that. Sounds better than the previous alternatives, letting the Pally protect everyone while limiting Mind Blast.

Oh and if you use squares, make sure to position the Paladin in an adjacent, not a diagonal square to let it affect all allies around the Mind Flayer. And hope there is no room to Levitate (though again, breaking its Concentration should be easy).

Good point about retreating. The Paladin being in position will massively help, but immobilizing the Illithid is prefered. Grappling would work but upgrades the Illithid's attack from Tentacle to Extract Brain (roughly a x1.5 damage against a Barbarian, but x3 against anyone else). However the Barbarian is at exhaustion 3, so they have a 1/4th chance to hit and grapple.

The Warlock has winged boots so they can help block off levitate. Also you noticed the party has enough ranged attacks to break concentration. Luckily that levitation would be a mostly wasted action for the Illithid.

I think we can assume the party wins when the Illithid uses its 1/day planeshift.

[JNAProductions]

Good point about retreating. The Paladin being in position will massively help, but immobilizing the Illithid is prefered. Grappling would work but upgrades the Illithid's attack from Tentacle to Extract Brain (roughly a x1.5 damage against a Barbarian, but x3 against anyone else). However the Barbarian is at exhaustion 3, so they have a 1/4th chance to hit and grapple.

The Warlock has winged boots so they can help block off levitate. Also you noticed the party has enough ranged attacks to break concentration. Luckily that levitation would be a mostly wasted action for the Illithid.

I think we can assume the party wins when the Illithid uses its 1/day planeshift.

Doesn't the Illithid have to grapple you, to use Extract Brain? Not be grappled by you.

[Chronos]

Yes, the cultists can probably put some real hurt on you if you ignore them. That's unfortunate, because your only chance for survival lies in ignoring them: They can put some real hurt on you, but the mindflayer can put some real TPK on you.

The best ability score to target with Hex will be Dex, not Str. The mindflayer's own grappling abilities don't involve rolling ability checks: It auto-grapples on a tentacle hit, with a set escape DC, rather than using an athletics check. And for escaping the party's grapples, which is probably the only other ability check it'd be making, its Dex (+1) is slightly higher than its Str (+0). The net effect will be very small, since with Dex at disadvantage it'll just make Str checks instead, for a net of -1, but hey, you're probably going to be Hexing anyway, and any -1 you can get to it helps.

[Eldariel]

Good point about retreating. The Paladin being in position will massively help, but immobilizing the Illithid is prefered. Grappling would work but upgrades the Illithid's attack from Tentacle to Extract Brain (roughly a x1.5 damage against a Barbarian, but x3 against anyone else). However the Barbarian is at exhaustion 3, so they have a 1/4th chance to hit and grapple.

The Warlock has winged boots so they can help block off levitate. Also you noticed the party has enough ranged attacks to break concentration. Luckily that levitation would be a mostly wasted action for the Illithid.

I think we can assume the party wins when the Illithid uses its 1/day planeshift.

Hex can even the odds WRT Str checks. Though Monk Stun is of course even more reliable.

[OldTrees1]

Doesn't the Illithid have to grapple you, to use Extract Brain? Not be grappled by you.

Oh right, grapple is an asymmetric effect in 5E. (Cue a chain of people grappling eachother. Each moves 30 ft and lets go. Fast travel unlocked!)


@Eldariel
Agreed. Hex to impact grapple checks is probably the best place for it. Also Chronos brings up a good point. Since the Illithid uses attack rolls to grapple, the Hex should focus on the PCs using grapple to immobilize the Illithid. So Dex checks to force the Illithid to defend with 10 Str instead of 12 Dex with Disadvantage?


PS: I just noticed 5E buffed my favorite creature:

it is grappled (escape DC 15) and must succeed on a DC 15 Intelligence saving throw or be stunned until this grapple ends.
Yay! Of course this makes it harder for the OP, but I am still happy with this buff.




Summary of tactics:
1) Everyone rush and surround the Illithid so nobody is in the same cone. Paladin stands orthogonally adjacent so everyone is within range. Warlock flies immediately above the Illithid.
2) Warlock uses Hex to weaken Illithid Dex checks. Monk tries to stun Illithid. Someone grapples the Illithid (Paladin tries first? Barbarian with exhaustion 3 as backup?).
3) Deal damage quickly. Hopefully the Illithid only gets 1 action (dominate person or mind blast) before they need to planeshift away.
4) Once the Illithid planeshifts away, retreat if someone is dominated OR if nobody is stunned. If someone is stunned, see if the barbarian can carry them at speed. Otherwise, try not to die against the minions.

[Unoriginal]

Summary of tactics:
1) Everyone rush and surround the Illithid so nobody is in the same cone. Paladin stands orthogonally adjacent so everyone is within range. Warlock flies immediately above the Illithid.
2) Warlock uses Hex to weaken Illithid Dex checks. Monk tries to stun Illithid. Someone grapples the Illithid (Paladin tries first? Barbarian with exhaustion 3 as backup?).
3) Deal damage quickly. Hopefully the Illithid only gets 1 action (dominate person or mind blast) before they need to planeshift away.
4) Once the Illithid planeshifts away, retreat if someone dominated OR if nobody is stunned. If someone is stunned, see if the barbarian can carry them at speed. Otherwise, try not to die against the minions.

That would work well but it requires everyone or near being able to reach the Illithid on the first turn without Dash. If it's not the case things will get much harder.

Also of note, if the Illithid does get stunned they're not likely to survive for the Plane Shift of Reasonable Bravery.

[heavyfuel]

This isn't directly related to your question, but how exactly did you get so many Exhaustion levels?!

On the topic, I'll say that you need to employ some high risk, high reward strategy in this fight. Playing it safe is going to make it unwinnable.

Charge the MF and focus fire. Flank it so it can't target all of you in a single Mind Blast. With decent rolls, you can kill it in two round

[da newt]

"if we won't kill mindflayer right here, right now, campaign ends."

This statement should allow you all to know that you have only one objective - Kill the Mindflayer right now. Nothing else matters. Use smart positioning to reduce the threat of multiple party members getting mind blasted, otherwise everyone does all they can to NOVA the mindflayer. Once that is resolved, you can worry about surviving the encounter with the cultists.

71 hp
15 ac
ADV on all saves

knock it prone, hit it until it's dead, hold nothing back

[Eldariel]

"if we won't kill mindflayer right here, right now, campaign ends."

This statement should allow you all to know that you have only one objective - Kill the Mindflayer right now. Nothing else matters. Use smart positioning to reduce the threat of multiple party members getting mind blasted, otherwise everyone does all they can to NOVA the mindflayer. Once that is resolved, you can worry about surviving the encounter with the cultists.

71 hp
15 ac
ADV on all saves

knock it prone, hit it until it's dead, hold nothing back

Only Adv on saves vs. Magic which makes Stunning Fist all the more potent.

[JackPhoenix]

Would it help if warlock will target mindflayer's CON with hex?

Nope. Hex doesn't help with saves. Str or Dex helps to make grappling it easier, if you decide to go that way.

More info on the cultists would be good. AC 17 doesn't really tell you anything.

[MaxWilson]

Nope. Hex doesn't help with saves. Str or Dex helps to make grappling it easier, if you decide to go that way.

More info on the cultists would be good. AC 17 doesn't really tell you anything.

Hex could potentially also affect the mind flayer's initiative as well, but it depends on how your DM runs initiative.

[MrCharlie]

Everyone who isn't a melee character is going to want to shove it prone, including the casters-Mind Flayers have mediocre STR and DEX, so even a -1 STR check has a good chance of succeeding. If they have to the melee chars should shove it too, but ideally it's prone first so they can hit with advantage. The key is going to be to get the Monk in there, hopefully before the Mind Flayer can act, and limit damage until then. Then everyone runs up and grapples it. You'll want two grappling creatures so it can't just dominate one to release the grapple. The goal is to get it prone so the Monk can run in, flurry of blows, stunning strike on all hits until its stunned, then everyone beats it to death-the cultists should be ignored. By grappling it, you prevent it from mind blasting more than maybe two people, realistically one, if it goes before the Monk.

A lot will depend on turn order though. If the Mind Flayer is first it may be able to run up to the party and mind-blast half of them-have everyone pile up on the doorway like SWAT to minimize this risk (if you stand in front of the door it can hit all of you, potentially). If the Monk is first he has to try to hit the Mind Flayer without advantage to stun-it's your best weapon. If the Monk is last but the rest of the party is before the flayer, you'll want to have it grappled so it can resposition to mind-blast people like noted, but you will have to deal with a dominated person-it's the best move of the flayer after mind blast.

The worst case scenario is probably the cultists going first-becuase they can just clog the doorway and it becomes a slog you can't possible win. If that does happen, you need to kill them, now, then incapacitate the flayer.

[MaxWilson]

A lot will depend on turn order though. If the Mind Flayer is first it may be able to run up to the party and mind-blast half of them-have everyone pile up on the doorway like SWAT to minimize this risk (if you stand in front of the door it can hit all of you, potentially).

Clarifying: this means splitting up on different sides of the door, hugging the wall, not piling up right in front of it.

It's actually fine though to have two guys positioned in front of the door, as well as two to the left and two to the right. You can set things up so that no more than 1/3 of the PCs would be caught in any given mind blast.