Was Tsukiko a godless cleric?

[Conradine]

She casted divine spells but she never ever mentioned a deity, not once, which is quite uncommon for a cleric...
unless she was a godless cleric who drew powers from concepts / ideas.
Your opinion?

[Luna_Mayflower]

If I had to guess, I'd say she followed The Rat, as its the known evil Southern God. Then again, she helped destroy the city that followed all those gods.

Hmm, tricky one this. She didn't seem all that devoted to a cause or idea too. Unless we count undead?

[hroþila]

I always assumed she was a follower of the Twelve Gods as a whole. You probably don't need to be super zealous to derive power from a god (or a pantheon, as the case may be).

[Luna_Mayflower]

I always assumed she was a follower of the Twelve Gods as a whole. You probably don't need to be super zealous to derive power from a god (or a pantheon, as the case may be).

Then why would they keep giving her spells after she helped destroy their capital?

[hroþila]

Then why would they keep giving her spells after she helped destroy their capital?
It wasn't their capital, it was one of the main Southern cities.

Anyway, the Twelve work as a pantheon, and there's little indication that they would all agree to do something like that, not because they're happy that Azure City was taken but because of the implications. Evil gods wouldn't necessarily like the precedent this would create because it could likely be used against anyone plotting an Evil scheme in the future, as those could have bad consequences for other cities or nations too. Especially because stripping Tsukiko of her divine magic wouldn't actually have changed anything (they presumably couldn't take away the Inflict Critical Wounds that Tsukiko used during the battle to heal Xykon even if they had wanted to because that one had already been granted, and she didn't do anything critical after that).

Alternatively, the Twelve might have agreed that Tsukiko had a real shot at exposing Redcloak's true plan to Xykon, which would have been the immediate end of the Snarl threat, at least for the time being. And in order to do that she needed to keep her place in the Gobbotopian hierarchy, for which she needed her spells.

[Metastachydium]

She casted divine spells but she never ever mentioned a deity, not once, which is quite uncommon for a cleric...


That's not technically true (v. page no. 2, panel no. 1 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html)).


Then why would they keep giving her spells after she helped destroy their capital?

Yeah, I've never understood that one, either.

[Razade]

It wasn't their capital, it was one of the main Southern cities.


It housed their political leader and it was the center of their culture as far as we know. The name of their culture also comes from Azure City. Azurite. If that's not a capital site in any uncertain terms I'm curious what would count towards it?

[Metastachydium]

It housed their political leader and it was the center of their culture as far as we know. The name of their culture also comes from Azure City. Azurite. If that's not a capital site in any uncertain terms I'm curious what would count towards it?

Much more importantly, the High Priest of the Twelve God resided in the city and took an active part in defending it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html). This would imply that Azure City likely housed the headquarters of their church.

[hroþila]

It housed their political leader and it was the center of their culture as far as we know. The name of their culture also comes from Azure City. Azurite. If that's not a capital site in any uncertain terms I'm curious what would count towards it?
It was the capital of the Azurites, not the capital of the South. There are other Southern states that worship the Twelve.

I'm not saying Azure City wasn't important to the Twelve. I'm saying there's more to the South (and to the Twelve) than Azure City.

[Gray Mage]

We've seen that the Northen pantheon has Demi-Gods that were on standby on the Godsmoot. Odds are that the same applied to the other pantheons as well. So maube she were a Cleric of one of them.

[ReaderAt2046]

Much more importantly, the High Priest of the Twelve God resided in the city and took an active part in defending it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html). This would imply that Azure City likely housed the headquarters of their church.

Several points:

First, by Word Of Giant (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?239187-Questions-on-the-OotS-religion&p=13053125#post13053125), the Twelve are worshipped as a pantheon by Southerners of all alignments.

Second, I imagine that it's very rare for a god to cut off one of their clerics, and even more so when it's an entire pantheon that would presumably have to agree on doing it. (Paladins presumably have more explicit rules for when they Fall).

Third, it's possible that "The High Priest of the Twelve Gods" was the High Priest for Azure City, and that other countries might have their own High Priests.

[Fyraltari]

I was under the imprssion that you don't need to be devoted to a god to wield divine magic, as druids (and rangers, I think?) can do just fine. Are mystic theurge not in the same boat?

[Keltest]

I was under the imprssion that you don't need to be devoted to a god to wield divine magic, as druids (and rangers, I think?) can do just fine. Are mystic theurge not in the same boat?

In order to cast cleric spells through the prestige class, i believe she needs at least a few straight cleric levels.

[Gray Mage]

I was under the imprssion that you don't need to be devoted to a god to wield divine magic, as druids (and rangers, I think?) can do just fine. Are mystic theurge not in the same boat?

To be a MT you need to have both a base arcane spellcasting class and a divine one.

[Peelee]

In order to cast cleric spells through the prestige class, i believe she needs at least a few straight cleric levels.

Nope. It's the most common way to go, but not necessary. IIRC it requires 2nd level spell casting ability in arcane and divine, plus 8 ranks each of Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Religion). So you could be a ranger/bard and go MT - though that would be a remarkably poor idea.

Druid is pretty much the only other core class you'd want for MT, and they have Arcane Heirophant more built for them (though that's not core).

Also, on Azure City, I'm also in the "not the capital of the southern continent" camp. There are five nations, AC was just likely the biggest metropolis.

[Keltest]

Nope. It's the most common way to go, but not necessary. IIRC it requires 2nd level spell casting ability in arcane and divine, plus 8 ranks each of Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Religion). So you could be a ranger/bard and go MT - though that would be a remarkably poor idea.

Druid is pretty much the only other core class you'd want for MT, and they have Arcane Heirophant more built for them (though that's not core).

Also, on Azure City, I'm also in the "not the capital of the southern continent" camp. There are five nations, AC was just likely the biggest metropolis.

Wouldnt going ranger/bard MT give her progression on the ranger and bard spell tables?

[Peelee]

Wouldnt going ranger/bard MT give her progression on the ranger and bard spell tables?

Yes. Since they are not full casters, there's not that much progression (I think they top out at 4th level spells? Can't remember exactly), which is why it's not a great idea to go that route.

[Keltest]

Yes. Since they are not full casters, there's not that much progression (I think they top out at 4th level spells? Can't remember exactly), which is why it's not a great idea to go that route.

Im confused now. You said i was wrong, but she DOES need cleric levels, specifically, to cast cleric spells through MT. using a ranger would give her ranger spells instead.

[Vinyadan]

She could be a favoured soul, I think (I didn't check the geekery thread). And, if one of the Twelve is into undeads, he might have vouched for her, as her boss was undead and she was making them herself.

[Metastachydium]

Also, on Azure City, I'm also in the "not the capital of the southern continent" camp. There are five nations, AC was just likely the biggest metropolis.

Of course it isn't. Hinjo wouldn't have called the other four nations their presumed allies if it were so (and that's just what we know from the online strips; provided I am not mistaken, there's additional evidence for the same position in Good Deeds as well).
I am aware that my responding to Razade might have been misleading, but I was merely implying it's a ”capital” of sorts for the Church of the Twelve.
Speaking of which…


Several points:

First, by Word Of Giant (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?239187-Questions-on-the-OotS-religion&p=13053125#post13053125), the Twelve are worshipped as a pantheon by Southerners of all alignments.

Second, I imagine that it's very rare for a god to cut off one of their clerics, and even more so when it's an entire pantheon that would presumably have to agree on doing it. (Paladins presumably have more explicit rules for when they Fall).

Third, it's possible that "The High Priest of the Twelve Gods" was the High Priest for Azure City, and that other countries might have their own High Priests.

1. Precisely. That's what made me think they have a single, unified church with a single unified clergy.
2. Might be, but when a cleric (of sorts) of a unified pantheon goes rogue and starts killing other clerics of the same pantheon to aid an irreligious guy and the high priest of a god hostile to the pantheon in question who are there to destroy a holy order under the patronage of, again, said pantheon and maybe massacre or enslave a few tens of thousands of their followers… That should perhaps be one of those rare occasions when the idea should perhaps easily get the backing of a comfortable majority.
3. All other high priests we have seen so far (Redcloak and the Northerners) were the high priests of someone rather than somewhere. Naturally, theit might be a number of autocephalous churches dedicated to the Southern gods, but based on what seems to be the norm in the setting, I'd be more inclined to assume that's not the case.

[KorvinStarmast]

Then again, she helped destroy the city that followed all those gods. It is more correct to say that she helped to conquer a city that followed all of those gods. There are numerous nations/city states in the Southern Continent.

There's a map of the Southern Continent (https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Southern_Continent?file=Southern_Continent.png) in one of the books ... Realm of the Dragon, Raja kingdom are also entities.

For example, in an analogy, you could say that Paris is the most important city, or the nicest city, in Europe but it isn't the capital of all of Europe. Just of France.

As to the other post, I find it odd that folks are trying to shoehorn the worship of a pantheon into the concept of 'a unified church' and 'a single unified clergy' - I don't think that model fits.
It certainly doesn't work that way up in the North among the dwarves; high priest of Thor and high priest of Odin as two examples however that may not be the best comparison as I am unclear on how the humans and other humanoids up North address their deities/religions/gods/pantheons.

[Peelee]

Im confused now. You said i was wrong, but she DOES need cleric levels, specifically, to cast cleric spells through MT. using a ranger would give her ranger spells instead.

Whoops. I missed the "to cast cleric spells" part you'd had and thought you were just talking about Mystic Theurge requirements in general. My bad.

As others said it's possible with Favored Soul (basically a divine sorcerer), and Druid has most of the same spells as Cleric (also true for Rangers, btw, but a significantly smaller list). But yeah, I just messed up my reading comprehension.

[Metastachydium]

For example, in an analogy, you could say that Paris is the most important city, or the nicest city, in Europe but it isn't the capital of all of Europe. Just of France.

As to the other post, I find it odd that folks are trying to shoehorn the worship of a pantheon into the concept of 'a unified church' and 'a single unified clergy' - I don't think that model fits.
It certainly doesn't work that way up in the North among the dwarves; high priest of Thor and high priest of Odin as two examples however that may not be the best comparison as I am unclear on how the humans and other humanoids up North address their deities/religions/gods/pantheons.

Not sure we are on the same page here. Y'see, all I'm saying is that higgh priests in the Stickverse tend to be the heads of a church, and more specifically the church of someone (i.e. some god) in particular, rather than the heads of a national/regional, autocephalous organization, i.e. the church of somewhere (is it inappropriate to bring up the way a real life church is organised as an analogy? It would make my job a lot easier).
For example, each Northern god has one formal high priest(ess) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html), which would imply that Northern gods have separate churches of their own, and each of them has exactly one such formal church. The same seems to be the case with the Dark One, as well as the Western gods (at some point, Malack makes mention of (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) the high priestess of Ishtar, while Wrecan says he works for (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0993.html) the church of Marduk).
Since other high priests are the formal heads of the respective churches of their gods, and since the Twelve are worshipped as a unified pantheon, I took the liberty to assume that the (singular, unitary) church of the Twelve is a thing, and therefore the high priest of the Twelve we see in Azure City is indeed the formal high priest of the Southern pantheon, rather than the leader of some local organization(, due to which, in turn, I took the liberty to assume that the Church of the Twelve was headquartered in Azure City at the time of the siege).

[Vinyadan]

Not sure we are on the same page here. Y'see, all I'm saying is that higgh priests in the Stickverse tend to be the heads of a church, and more specifically the church of someone (i.e. some god) in particular, rather than the heads of a national/regional, autocephalous organization, i.e. the church of somewhere (is it inappropriate to bring up the way a real life church is organised as an analogy? It would make my job a lot easier).
For example, each Northern god has one formal high priest(ess) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html), which would imply that Northern gods have separate churches of their own, and each of them has exactly one such formal church. The same seems to be the case with the Dark One, as well as the Western gods (at some point, Malack makes mention of (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) the high priestess of Ishtar, while Wrecan says he works for (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0993.html) the church of Marduk).
Since other high priests are the formal heads of the respective churches of their gods, and since the Twelve are worshipped as a unified pantheon, I took the liberty to assume that the (singular, unitary) church of the Twelve is a thing, and therefore the high priest of the Twelve we see in Azure City is indeed the formal high priest of the Southern pantheon, rather than the leader of some local organization(, due to which, in turn, I took the liberty to assume that the Church of the Twelve was headquartered in Azure City at the time of the siege).
In 999, we see that the Southern Pantheon has 12 priests representing their gods. They could be their high priests. But it's notable that they are just 12, and not 13, as one could expect with an added high priest of all the 12 gods. Maybe it's a rotating presidency, or maybe one of the gods, as chief deity, bestows upon his high priest the title of high priest of the 12. Or maybe it takes a special council to have a high priest of the 12, and it wasn't possible to name one in the meantime, or will be named at the end of the Godsmoot.

[The Pilgrim]

Come on, guys. Just as Gontor and his pals worshipped rocks and got their spells granted by earth elementals and such, Tsukiko worshipped the undead and got her spells granted by powerful outsiders of the negative energy plane. That's my head canon, end of que problem.

[Metastachydium]

In 999, we see that the Southern Pantheon has 12 priests representing their gods. They could be their high priests. But it's notable that they are just 12, and not 13, as one could expect with an added high priest of all the 12 gods. Maybe it's a rotating presidency, or maybe one of the gods, as chief deity, bestows upon his high priest the title of high priest of the 12. Or maybe it takes a special council to have a high priest of the 12, and it wasn't possible to name one in the meantime, or will be named at the end of the Godsmoot.

Yes, that's been bugging me for a while too. My personal guess would be that those twelve clerics channeling the result of the vote are not high priests, but rather official spokespersons for the members of the pantheon (making it possible for multiple members of the divine group to manifest or speak as proxies at once, and allowing them to announce their votes separately), whereas the actual high priest presides over the meeting. His absence could be explained by the fact that he, well, died during the Battle of Azure City, and the Church did not have the time to officially inaugurate his successor in time.

[3Power]

Then why would they keep giving her spells after she helped destroy their capital?

Remember that for a while she was part of Xykon's inner circle. Whether the gods liked her or not, she was their agent in his camp and their best bet to contact redcloak in the same way that Durkon is currently doing in the comic. The problem with that is of course that tsukiko was not raised from the dead, quite the opposite, in fact.


Yes, that's been bugging me for a while too. My personal guess would be that those twelve clerics channeling the result of the vote are not high priests, but rather official spokespersons for the members of the pantheon (making it possible for multiple members of the divine group to manifest or speak as proxies at once, and allowing them to announce their votes separately), whereas the actual high priest presides over the meeting. His absence could be explained by the fact that he, well, died during the Battle of Azure City, and the Church did not have the time to officially inaugurate his successor in time. Note that worshiping the twelve gods as a whole doesn't preclude the gods having individual virtues and vices (and in game terms, domains) associated with them. The individual clerics might all be clerics of the twelve gods, but those that specialize in the domains of a specific god and thus the most suitable representative for them.


In 999, we see that the Southern Pantheon has 12 priests representing their gods. They could be their high priests. But it's notable that they are just 12, and not 13, as one could expect with an added high priest of all the 12 gods. Maybe it's a rotating presidency, or maybe one of the gods, as chief deity, bestows upon his high priest the title of high priest of the 12. Or maybe it takes a special council to have a high priest of the 12, and it wasn't possible to name one in the meantime, or will be named at the end of the Godsmoot.
13th seat on council is for horned rat! Yes-yes. But why council only have one skaven-thing? Not good-acceptable! Ready the warpstone!
/Warhammer.

[dps]

I don't think that we have nearly enough information to say for certain. Yes, we have Word of the Giant that followers of the Southern gods worship them as a pantheon, but that doesn't preclude Tsukiko being a godless cleric, or being some sort of heretic.

[Peelee]

Remember that for a while she was part of Xykon's inner circle. Whether the gods liked her or not, she was their agent in his camp and their best bet to contact redcloak in the same way that Durkon is currently doing in the comic.

I didn't even have a problem with Tsukiko still getting spells, but I like this theory so much I'm headcanoning it regardless.

[Riftwolf]

My Headcanon is that the evil Gods saw an opportunity in keeping Tsukiko on the payroll, as having a Cleric of the Twelve Gods in Gobbotopia meant they still had a foot in the door to convert the goblins down the road.
That plan didn't really pan out how they'd hoped though.

[Metastachydium]

Remember that for a while she was part of Xykon's inner circle. Whether the gods liked her or not, she was their agent in his camp and their best bet to contact redcloak in the same way that Durkon is currently doing in the comic. The problem with that is of course that tsukiko was not raised from the dead, quite the opposite, in fact.


It's not a problem, if we don't assume the Twelve wished to contact Redcloak. SoD, and in particular the scene where Big Purple learns about the existence of Lirian's Rift when he loses a cleric to it seems to imply that gods have easy access to information their clerics have access to. Which would mean that Tsukiko could (unwittingly) serve as the eye and ear of the Twelve in Gobbotopia.

[Keltest]

Its also entirely possible that because Tsukiko was simply doing her evil cleric thing, they felt no need to react to her. As we have now learned, it isnt like the world is some huge investment that they cant afford to let go. They'd just prefer not to.

[dude123nice]

It's entirely possible that one of the twelve gods presides over death, and actually got a massive boost from all the souls connected from the battle. That's probably also the got T would worship. Since her actions haven't threatened the actual worship of the pantheon, said god would actually probably be glad about what she's done. I mean, the whole premise of an evil god of a pantheon is that him and his followers are overall opposed to the pantheon as a whole, as long as an existential threat doesn't rear its ugly head.

[Peelee]

I mean, the whole premise of an evil god of a pantheon is that him and his followers are overall opposed to the pantheon as a whole

How's that now?

[KorvinStarmast]

How's that now?
Probably thinking of an example like {scrubbed} ... that's what I got out of the post.

[Metastachydium]

It's entirely possible that one of the twelve gods presides over death, and actually got a massive boost from all the souls connected from the battle. That's probably also the got T would worship. Since her actions haven't threatened the actual worship of the pantheon, said god would actually probably be glad about what she's done. I mean, the whole premise of an evil god of a pantheon is that him and his followers are overall opposed to the pantheon as a whole, as long as an existential threat doesn't rear its ugly head.

Doubt that. The Twelve are worshipped as a pantheon, which would mean that they receive Belief, Worship and Dedication collectively from their followers, whereas the souls presumably end up where they belong (so unless the vast majority of the noble defenders of Azure City were Chaotic/Neutral Evil, I seriously doubt that an Evil god of death would get more souls than the rest of the pantheon).

[Vinyadan]

There's a fun fact about the map of the South that was linked earlier: one of the lands seem to be inhabited by the undead. Ghostlands, Deadsburg, Haunted Woods. https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Southern_Continent?file=Southern_Continent.png So one of the Twelve being into undead doesn't seem too unlikely, unless it's like Gobbotopia (an unwanted invasion).

[dude123nice]

How's that now?

The Evil God wants to overthrow the rest of the Pantheon and become its top God, the way Loki would probably be doing in normal circumstances and Hel is doing right now, and so he is ok with screwing over the majority of the pantheon, once again, like Hell is doing. Since, as I've already stated, this action doesn't actually threaten the pantheon in a significant enough way, it could be considered an advantageous moove for certainn goals of an Evil


Doubt that. The Twelve are worshipped as a pantheon, which would mean that they receive Belief, Worship and Dedication collectively from their followers, whereas the souls presumably end up where they belong (so unless the vast majority of the noble defenders of Azure City were Chaotic/Neutral Evil, I seriously doubt that an Evil god of death would get more souls than the rest of the pantheon).

Rat has already showed himself willing to act against the wishes of the pantheon as a whole. And you don't take into consideration other possible advantages, like, for example, that the event created a change for Kubota or other evil nobles to rise to power. That would certainly have an effect on the future overall alignment of the nation.

[Peelee]

The Evil God wants to overthrow the rest of the Pantheon and become its top God, the way Loki would probably be doing in normal circumstances and Hel is doing right now, and so he is ok with screwing over the majority of the pantheon, once again, like Hell is doing. Since, as I've already stated, this action doesn't actually threaten the pantheon in a significant enough way, it could be considered an advantageous moove for certainn goals of an Evil

So far we've seen one, and only one, example of that (Hel). How is that every evil gods' premise?

[dude123nice]

So far we've seen one, and only one, example of that (Hel). How is that every evil gods' premise?

I'm not giving a definite answer, none of us has a definite answer for that either way. I'm giving possible solutions {scrubbed}. Most of the population lived, and the invasion gave a chance for evil nobles to rise to power.

[Peelee]

I'm not giving a definite answer, none of us has a definite answer for that either way.
You seemed to have a definite statement earlier that "the whole premise of an evil god of a pantheon is that him and his followers are overall opposed to the pantheon as a whole". I'm just asking how, exactly, you justify that conclusion. Not that one or two have acted that way - that this is their "whole premise."

[Keltest]

You seemed to have a definite statement earlier that "the whole premise of an evil god of a pantheon is that him and his followers are overall opposed to the pantheon as a whole". I'm just asking how, exactly, you justify that conclusion. Not that one or two have acted that way - that this is their "whole premise."

From a strictly D&D perspective, he's actually correct. Evil gods (and evil outsiders) exist pretty much entirely to drive conflict beyond what would otherwise be occurring with a big happy Good-And-Neutral family of gods. They cant actually win overall or be in charge, because D&D evil is self destructive, and fighting gods is usually beyond the scope of PCs.

[Peelee]

From a strictly D&D perspective, he's actually correct. Evil gods (and evil outsiders) exist pretty much entirely to drive conflict beyond what would otherwise be occurring with a big happy Good-And-Neutral family of gods. They cant actually win overall or be in charge, because D&D evil is self destructive, and fighting gods is usually beyond the scope of PCs.

And from a Stickworld perspective? The Twelve Gods are an incredibly tightly-nit pantheon, to the point that they are worshipped as a whole and will work together to take certain actions as a whole, as we have seen. Which alone flies in the face of the idea that the evil gods in the Southern pantheon are opposed to the pantheon as their entire premise.

[dude123nice]

You seemed to have a definite statement earlier that "the whole premise of an evil god of a pantheon is that him and his followers are overall opposed to the pantheon as a whole". I'm just asking how, exactly, you justify that conclusion. Not that one or two have acted that way - that this is their "whole premise."

Well, to amend that statement a bit, it should be "an evil god of a pantheon that seems overly good aligned". Since an evil god's wants and ideals would naturally be opposed to such a pantheon, and since evil gods are, by their nature, immoral, it's normal to assume that such a god would be willing to undermine the rest of the pantheon to rise to power.

[Keltest]

And from a Stickworld perspective? The Twelve Gods are an incredibly tightly-nit pantheon, to the point that they are worshipped as a whole and will work together to take certain actions as a whole, as we have seen. Which alone flies in the face of the idea that the evil gods in the Southern pantheon are opposed to the pantheon as their entire premise.

Having the capacity to cooperate does not mean that they wouldnt totally go off and do their own thing if they had the opportunity to do so without consequence. Indeed, Rat actually did break with his pantheon to act on his own agenda when The Dark One discovered the rifts.

[Potatopeelerkin]

A few things:

Some of the gods (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1171.html) (read: Loki) seem to be OK with not necessarily doing what's best for the god in all situations as long as they follow the teachings. Or they may believe having faith in and supporting the god doesn't necessarily mean you should support everyone else who also worships the god.

The gods of the South also have greater dominion over, well, the South. Despite years of infighting in the West every kingdom in the West still seems to worship the Western gods, so perhaps it doesn't really matter which mortal leader rules in the South either. Maybe they all end up worshipping the Southern gods anyway, because that's who has the most power there. Maybe they felt that a loss to the goblins was inevitable, and Tsukiko was a way to help spread the faith of the Twelve to the new leaders. Though the fact that the goblins have far less interest in the traditional pantheons due to their history and the existence of TDO may throw a wrench in that theory.

Azure City is also not the only place that worships the Twelve, or even the biggest. According to GDGU,
The Realm of the Dragon and the Azurites are practically the same people with the same faith and culture, just with different leaders and politics.

[Darth Paul]

Tsukiko was a godawful cleric. The sermons were rambling, and the wights gobbled all the coffee and donuts on the refreshments table afterwards. The only guy who protested about how pushy they were got level-drained and turned into another wight. I could see where that was going, so I kept my mouth shut and just switched denominations the next week.

They came around with some pamphlets a few times after that to try and get me back, but I hid behind the couch and pretended I wasn't home until they got bored and went away...

[Gurgeh]

Probably thinking of an example like {scrub the post, scrub the quote} ... that's what I got out of the post.
{scrubbed}

[Vinyadan]

I think you might want to familiarise yourself with Roman mythology a tad more before making this comparison.
"Why is my hair out?"

[Peelee]

Well, to amend that statement a bit, it should be "an evil god of a pantheon that seems overly good aligned". Since an evil god's wants and ideals would naturally be opposed to such a pantheon, and since evil gods are, by their nature, immoral, it's normal to assume that such a god would be willing to undermine the rest of the pantheon to rise to power.
Ok, I getcha. I'll totally agree on that.

Having the capacity to cooperate does not mean that they wouldnt totally go off and do their own thing if they had the opportunity to do so without consequence. Indeed, Rat actually did break with his pantheon to act on his own agenda when The Dark One discovered the rifts.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean said God would be opposed to the entire Pantheon any more than Thor is opposed to the entire Northern pantheon by trying to get this deal with TDO. That just means that different people are different.

[KorvinStarmast]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote} {scrubbed}

[Keltest]

Ok, I getcha. I'll totally agree on that.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean said God would be opposed to the entire Pantheon any more than Thor is opposed to the entire Northern pantheon by trying to get this deal with TDO. That just means that different people are different.

I dont understand this objection. Evil will try and take others down a peg when the opportunity presents itself by definition. They can be more or less civilized about it by comparison, But if you are Evil then you are trying to look after #1 while making sure to keep #2 down (as opposed to neutral, who looks after #1 but doesnt care what #2 is up to). Thats why theyre evil. If theyre cooperating, its because to do otherwise would hurt them in some way, not because they genuinely believe in cooperation and group interest for their own sakes.

[Peelee]

I dont understand this objection. Evil will try and take others down a peg when the opportunity presents itself by definition. They can be more or less civilized about it by comparison, But if you are Evil then you are trying to look after #1 while making sure to keep #2 down (as opposed to neutral, who looks after #1 but doesnt care what #2 is up to). Thats why theyre evil. If theyre cooperating, its because to do otherwise would hurt them in some way, not because they genuinely believe in cooperation and group interest for their own sakes.

Evil has just as many flavors as Good or Neutral. An Evil god can still fully recognize that the pantheon makes them stronger and not want to eliminate or even take down a peg the rest of the pantheon even if given the opportunity. The philosophy of enlightened self-interest is not necessarily Good, but can easily be adapted to Evil. Heck, that's basically how I'm playing a character in a campaign I've got going on right now. Dude is inarguably Evil, but will not act antagonistically or move against the party because it is in his best interests to not do that. He's not a "cool" Evil or shades-of-grey Evil or designed-to-question-how-we-view-morality Evil. He's just Evil, but also practical.

I'm sure there are some Evil gods that are also practical and subscribe to enlightened self-interest.

[dmc91356]

I dont understand this objection. Evil will try and take others down a peg when the opportunity presents itself by definition. They can be more or less civilized about it by comparison, But if you are Evil then you are trying to look after #1 while making sure to keep #2 down (as opposed to neutral, who looks after #1 but doesnt care what #2 is up to). Thats why theyre evil. If theyre cooperating, its because to do otherwise would hurt them in some way, not because they genuinely believe in cooperation and group interest for their own sakes.

I seem to remember a statement by Rich concerning a D&D party where they just fundamentally did not understand that the two bad guys in the campaign were friends and, even though evil, treated each other accordingly. When the party tried to get one of the bad guys to turn on the other, things did not go well for that plan. I think that is a more nuanced view about evil than what you are presenting here.

[Peelee]

I seem to remember a statement by Rich concerning a D&D party where they just fundamentally did not understand that the two bad guys in the campaign were friends and, even though evil, treated each other accordingly. When the party tried to get one of the bad guys to turn on the other, things did not go well for that plan. I think that is a more nuanced view about evil than what you are presenting here.

Indeed. "Evil" does not necessarily mean "kicks every puppy they see".

[Darth Paul]

Indeed. "Evil" does not necessarily mean "kicks every puppy they see".

For that matter, there's a very good reason for the trope "Even Evil Has Loved Ones".

I think the debate is whether having Evil (capital E) goals makes you a bad person. Well, on one level, yes, I think it does, by definition; but on another, it doesn't have to mean that one is only ever looking out for number one, when looking out for others to some extent means they owe you a favor and you're going to be able to cash it in down the road.

I picture Rat as a member of a bureaucracy, he's Evil, yes, but he knows the rest of the bureaucracy probably isn't going anywhere and if he tore it all down, just look at the work he would have to do afterward. He has his hands full with the Evil portfolio, let the others take care of their sectors as long as they let his followers alone.

[M. Arillius]

As per comic 1143, Rat was apparently furious with Azure City's fall. So he definitely wasn't approving of it and probably would have, along with the rest of the pantheon, zapped Tsukiko of her cleric powers the moment she turned on the ramparts or even before that. Hell, just the act of trying to get with the guys invading Azure City might have been enough for her to lose it.

More over, Rat is probably hella enjoying the pantheon stuff. Politics are a breeding ground for sociopathic monsters in the real world and that definitely held true for Azure City. Even some LE, noble intentioned evils can probably fit in all of that jazz.

Plenty of room for give and take of Tyrants, Criminal Lords, Neutral Mediators or Good and Noble leaders. Cycles of it, you know? And plenty of time to play against the other gods in his pantheon in a way that never hurt his culture. The idea being, simply, that they were always competing for the best of their people through their followers. Whoever holds the seat clearly won it and so is the strongest, but they have to keep it from other contenders. It has all the 'we wanted to do something cause bored' 'giants in a playground' 'care about my followers, good or evil' and even 'believe in a cause or have a personal goal' room for the pantheon to enjoy.

So the idea that he'd be down for the fall of Azure City seems improbable, particularly if the comic went out of it's way to say Rat was furious about it's fall.

It's possible, still, that Tsukiko was his follower, and that he kept her hanging around to try and work with Redcloak or learn what they were up to, definitely, but that's a very long play when the city hadn't even fallen yet. And considering she was a high level Mystic Theurge, she probably played a big part in the battle outside even if we didn't see it. One high level spell caster is more then enough to change a battle in some cases, nonetheless one with access to both sets of spell slots who was specifically allowed to prepare combat spells that morning to fight for Azure City.

I think it's more likely she had an alternate source. A demigod, a class that didn't require it, a god from another region, etc.

[Sebastian]

In order to cast cleric spells through the prestige class, i believe she needs at least a few straight cleric levels.

Technically, one must be able to cast divine spells, so she don't need to have cleric levels. She could have levels in, I don't know, Archivist, which would also be appropriate to her character.

[danielxcutter]

Well that certainly would explain why her Wisdom seemed to be as functional as one of her wights going skinny-dipping in holy water.

[Edea]

...come to think of it, did we ever see Tsukiko rebuke/bolster any of her undead, or even carry an unholy symbol?

In fact...she didn't even know Redcloak had done it to her own wights. If she'd been a cleric she'd have recognized what he'd done immediately.

Yeah, I also don't think her divine magic's clerical. It's coming from somewhere else.

[Keltest]

...come to think of it, did we ever see Tsukiko rebuke/bolster any of her undead, or even carry an unholy symbol?

In fact...she didn't even know Redcloak had done it to her own wights. If she'd been a cleric she'd have recognized what he'd done immediately.

Yeah, I also don't think her divine magic's clerical. It's coming from somewhere else.

Even if she did have cleric levels, she would have no particular turning ability, since it would be based exclusively on her cleric level without any contribution from the wizard or MT levels.

[Edea]

Even if she did have cleric levels, she would have no particular turning ability, since it would be based exclusively on her cleric level without any contribution from the wizard or MT levels.

But she'd still be able to do it, yeah?

There's ways of getting around specifics of the turning mechanics, but regardless she should be able to recognize when someone else was doing it. She acted like she didn't even realize Redcloak could do that, it's odd.

Also, did she ever cast any domain spells? From what she has cast in the comic, is it possible to deduce either of them? Genuinely asking, all I really remember her doing is making undead and preparing orb spells to get around Haley's Ref saves.

[vegetalss4]

But she'd still be able to do it, yeah?

There's ways of getting around specifics of the turning mechanics, but regardless she should be able to recognize when someone else was doing it. She acted like she didn't even realize Redcloak could do that, it's odd.

Also, did she ever cast any domain spells? From what she has cast in the comic, is it possible to deduce either of them? Genuinely asking, all I really remember her doing is making undead and preparing orb spells to get around Haley's Ref saves.

Personally I read that scene as Tsukiko not noticing redcloak was doing anything because she had her back turned when redcloak entered, (a wight comments that someone is entering then in the next panel her head is turned as she greets him and she is holding an open book that she was presumably reading).
Rebuking undead is pretty obvious in general the way the comic portrays it with those big grey triangle fields, if you are looking at it.

Tsukiko does imply that she is a cleric in strip 516 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html).
Specifically she refferences the fact that in 1st edition a paladin could be turned by evil clerics the way they can turn undead and implies that if they had been in that edition she would have done so.

The class and level geekery thread haven't written down anything about her domains and normally they would have done that if we had been able to know.

[danielxcutter]

To be fair, surprisingly few domains have more than a few spells not on the standard Cleric list, and even the ones that are usually just narrow it down to a handful rather than one obvious candidate unless stated otherwise.

[Sebastian]

Personally I read that scene as Tsukiko not noticing redcloak was doing anything because she had her back turned when redcloak entered, (a wight comments that someone is entering then in the next panel her head is turned as she greets him and she is holding an open book that she was presumably reading).
Rebuking undead is pretty obvious in general the way the comic portrays it with those big grey triangle fields, if you are looking at it.

Tsukiko does imply that she is a cleric in strip 516 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html).
Specifically she refferences the fact that in 1st edition a paladin could be turned by evil clerics the way they can turn undead and implies that if they had been in that edition she would have done so.

The class and level geekery thread haven't written down anything about her domains and normally they would have done that if we had been able to know.

I don't think she was necessarily talking about herself there, she said "someone turn you" not "me turn you", . Also, as mentioned, as a MT her turning/rebuking would be awful.

[Edea]

That's true. Maybe she just wasn't a cleric of the Twelve, but then I'm sort-of curious who she was a cleric of. Can't be Hel, we already know what sorts of problems she's having. Maybe she was a cleric of Nergal like Malack?

Interestingly (and I forgot this), create undead does not put the undead created under the control of the caster the way animate dead does. You can -attempt- to command them (via turn uses) after creation, but as noted Tsukiko would suck at it. I guess she had to keep the command undead spell active on -all- of them. Also, pretty sure command undead doesn't give you a heads-up on the status of the targets; it explicitly calls out that there is no telepathic connection, and the undead have to be able to hear your orders.

[Peelee]

That's true. Maybe she just wasn't a cleric of the Twelve, but then I'm sort-of curious who she was a cleric of. Can't be Hel, we already know what sorts of problems she's having. Maybe she was a cleric of Nergal like Malack?
Short version? No.

The Twelve Gods are worshipped as a pantheon, by everyone, including evil characters like Kubota and Tsukiko.

[Edea]

I guess the Twelve were OK with her involvement in the Azure City debacle, then.

Now I'm curious just how badly a cleric has to behave in OotS before their powers are revoked.

[Peelee]

I guess the Twelve were OK with her involvement in the Azure City debacle, then.

Now I'm curious just how badly a cleric has to behave in OotS before their powers are revoked.

The Twelve Gods were not beholden to Azure City alone. They are the pantheon of the entire Southern Continent, which has five nations, IIRC.

[danielxcutter]

The problem is that Azure City is not only a large hub for the faith of the Twelve but that it contains a Gate, although now that I think about it Tsukiko didn’t really know much about it did she? She only joined because of Xykon and didn’t learn about the Gates until he asked her to proofread the ritual.

[MReav]

It's possible she's a godless cleric, though it's also possible she worships one of the Southern Pantheon's so-far unnamed demigods. Pure speculation pasr this point: I like the idea that she worships Cat, who got screwed out of the main pantheon because of Rat's machinations (like in the OG myth), and he's holding a grudge against not just Rat but the pantheon as a whole (or at least is willing to screw over the rest to get at Rat). Her heterochromia is actually a sign of her worship, and he is a patron of outsiders who feel shunned and betrayed by society.

[ebarde]

Giant's comment cites her as an example of an evil cleric of the twelve. Also, I feel like in a world where gods are known to be real and directly impact the world of mortals, I feel that if someone calls out for the gods they probably worship them. This is even more so the case if the person in question is a cleric, so if I were to guess I say she worships the pantheon and they are the ones that granted her clerical powers. As to why they don't just take away her spells, I think it's just a matter of burocracy, as they probably would need to set in stone specific rules clerics need to abide for that doesn't go against any of the ideals of each specific god in the pantheon.

So basically, I feel that her transgression was just unusual enough that the very burocratic pantheon couldn't quite decide on what grounds to cast her down with, without having to make some sort of exception. It's also likely that they thought that at the very least Tsukiko would throw a wrench into Redcloak's plans, the gods clearly aren't all knowing, but they do seem to be able to predict a lot of future events with at least a bit of accuracy. So maybe that divine insight foretold them that Tsukiko would come to blows with Redcloak in the future.

[Keltest]

Why are we assuming that she transgressed at all? She's evil, joining the invading evil army to destroy the city that she perceived to have oppressed her for her whole life is perfectly legitimate evil behavior.

[ebarde]

Less the invading, more the whole probably unadvertadly helping in releasing the snarl. I suppose if she stayed loyal to Xykon she would eventually oppose Redcloak, and from the god's point of view Xykon is very much the lesser of two evils. Cause unless he has something going on we don't know, he can't do anything with the gates, so he's only a danger to the mortals.

[Clistenes]

Rich has explicitly said thay Tsukiko worshipped the Twelve... what I find strange is that they kept empowering her when even the Rat is pissed about the conquest of Azure City...

[thereaper]

It's possible that Rat supported the invasion at the time, but has since changed his mind.

It's also possible that one of the other 12 vetoed the removal of Tsukiko's powers.

Heck, maybe they have a yearly schedule for depowering clerics, and Tsukiko died before it came up.

Or maybe it's like when Hilgya abandoned the fight and Loki forgave her; she worked against Rat's interests, but in a way fully in keeping with his policies.

There are many possibilities.

[Edea]

You know, re-reading strip 1143, Thor seems to imply the Twelve Gods are "split" over negotiating with "the one responsible for what happened to Azure City."

That indicates they probably don't have a unified consensus on all entities involved with that event instantly being on their cosmic crap-list, and that would make it less of a non sequitur with regards to Tsukiko keeping her clerical powers in spite of her involvement.

Even if a Twelve Gods cleric did still need to focus on one of them for granted spells (and I've seen nothing indicating that to be the case, quite the opposite), Rat might also not be the only evil member of that pantheon (if Rat even is evil); she might've focused on a different Zodiac aspect.


TBH, given her name's meaning ("moon-child") and the cultures being referenced, I would've guessed Tsukiko's specific patron among the Twelve was Rabbit, not Rat. The legend of rabbits on the moon's not only well-known, but Rabbit's also the fourth member of the Zodiac; the number 4 is often associated with death and unluck in Japanese culture, something Tsukiko's intimately familiar with.