How to Make Unarmed Attacks Count as Weapons?

[aadder]

Hello all,

I'm working on an unarmed gish wizard character with multiclass into eldritch knight, and unfortunately i see that the RAW is that unarmed attacks don't count as weapons for Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade. Personally i think if you have Tavern Brawler, Unarmed Fighting Style as a Fighter, or are a Monk, your unarmed attacks should count as weapons because you have proficiency in them; it only makes sense.

However, if we're saying that's not the case, what other mechanisms would i still have to make unarmed strikes count for those attacks, as well as other affects that require melee weapon strikes? The thing that immediately comes to mind is Alter Self, as i see no reason why natural weapons wouldnt' count as melee weapons for said spells, but on the other hand i think it would be very expensive to fire-off a level 2 spell just to throw cantrips.

I'm going to talk to my DM about house-ruling this, because i see it as unnecessarily restrictive, but if you have any ideas or know of any i'd love to hear them.

[JackPhoenix]

Everyone is proficient with unarmed strike. It's still explicitly not a weapon.

There's no RAW way to make unarmed strike count as weapon.

[aadder]

Everyone is proficient with unarmed strike. It's still explicitly not a weapon.


Huh, so you are. I must have mistaken Tavern Brawler because it grants proficiency with improvised weapons.

[JackPhoenix]

Huh, so you are. I must have mistaken Tavern Brawler because it grants proficiency with improvised weapons.

It gave proficiency in unarmed strike and improvised weapons in first printing, but the reference to unarmed strikes was removed later, because everyone is already proficient in them. Not sure when that happen, the very first errata, I think. The same that removed US from the weapon table.

[aadder]

It gave proficiency in unarmed strike and improvised weapons in first printing[.]

That makes a lot of sense, i remembered reading it but it's not there in my book but my copy is kind of new.

[da newt]

Why does your Gish need to be empty handed?

Cary a "wand" (aka club) in one hand and SCAG with it or anything that you can say is an improvised weapon. I've seen some folks use their rings as weapons with great effect, or wear a gauntlet, or whatever fits your character concept.

[Satori01]

Simply ask the DM to ignore the rule, for your character concept.
There is nothing unbalancing about allowing Magic Weapon or BB etc to effect unarmed strikes.

Your hands literally register as lethal weapons....it is a child from the 1970's dream come true.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Crt4S1IZM&list=PLx1-31XXLw1Chvu-CgMpABPrmIM_kKHjT&index=6&t=0s

[ProsecutorGodot]

Simply ask the DM to ignore the rule, for your character concept.
There is nothing unbalancing about allowing Magic Weapon or BB etc to effect unarmed strikes.

There can be balancing issues as far as spellcasters are concerned, if you treat their fist as weapons why wouldn't it also still count as an open hand for somatic/material components?

[Satori01]

Allowing a 10 STR Wizard to punch for 1 damage plus Booming Blade effects is not going to start a Rue Goldberg like chain of events that leads to the eventual destruction of your game. 😄

[JNAProductions]

Allowing a 10 STR Wizard to punch for 1 damage plus Booming Blade effects is not going to start a Rue Goldberg like chain of events that leads to the eventual destruction of your game. 😄

Yeah, I'll echo this. I don't see any issues arising from letting you use weapon cantrips with your fists. If it DOES become an issue, be sure to work with your DM to figure out a solution, but I find that unlikely to happen.

[aadder]

I've seen some folks use their rings as weapons with great effect, or wear a gauntlet, or whatever fits your character concept.

I see as a bit of a failure that 5e doesn't have knuckle dusters or otherwise some variety of fist weapons for this reason, yeah.

[thoroughlyS]

What is the reason you are unarmed? Is it just for flavor, or do you need to be for some mechanical reason?

[aadder]

What is the reason you are unarmed? Is it just for flavor, or do you need to be for some mechanical reason?

Because Unarmed Fighter makes you really good at grappling, which pairs well with Enlarge on yourself. You grapple someone, do extra damage, and hold them in, say, Cloud of Daggers for ongoing damage.

[aadder]

Or even just inside Create Bonfire, if you dont' want to spend a spell.

[thoroughlyS]

Ok, so you want to be a grappler. Do you want a shield in your other hand? If not, you could wield a staff arcane focus in your main hand and grapple with your off hand. Take athletics proficiency and the dueling fighting style. You run up to someone, grab them, and then booming blade them with your staff.

[Naanomi]

Doesn't really get around the material component on those spells though...

[thoroughlyS]

According to Mike Mearls (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/509454576999612416), an arcane focus staff "doubles as a quarterstaff" (i.e. it is a quarterstaff). I personally interpret this to mean that arcane focus staffs are weapons in addition to being a focus. To me, this balances out how shields can be used as spellcasting foci for the cleric and paladin. Ask your DM if they agree with this interpretation.

[ProsecutorGodot]

According to Mike Mearls (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/509454576999612416), an arcane focus staff doubles as a quarterstaff. I personally interpret this to mean that arcane focus staffs are weapons in addition to being a focus. To me, this balances out how shields can be used as spellcasting foci for the cleric and paladin. Ask your DM if they agree with this interpretation.

It's not Mike Mearls that rules it this way, it's the DMG:

Chapter 7: Treasure - Wearing and Wielding Items
Staffs
A magic staff is about 5 or 6 feet long. Staffs vary widely in appearance: some are of nearly equal diameter throughout and smooth, others are gnarled and twisted, some are made of wood, and others are composed of polished metal or crystal. Depending on the material, a staff weighs between 2 and 7 pounds.

Unless a staff’s description says otherwise, a staff can be used as a quarterstaff.

Your DM could be extra pedantic about it and say that this only applies to Magical Staff but that would be silly.

I would go the Staff route rather than trying to go unarmed. You need to be carrying an arcane focus regardless for many of your spells (Cloud of Daggers is one of these spells) and this offers the potential of some pretty decent weapons in the future.

[thoroughlyS]

That only says it "can be used as a quarterstaff", not that it is one. The reason this matters is that booming blade and green-flame blade both require you to make a melee attack "with a weapon". There is no way to circumvent this restriction and technically (even if you can use an arcane focus as a quarterstaff) it still isn't a weapon.

For what it's worth: I allow this interaction at my table, but I know that this is a ruling.

[ProsecutorGodot]

That only says it "can be used as a quarterstaff", not that it is one. The reason this matters is that booming blade and green-flame blade both require you to make a melee attack "with a weapon". There is no way to circumvent this restriction and technically (even if you can use an arcane focus as a quarterstaff) it still isn't a weapon.

For what it's worth: I allow this interaction at my table, but I know that this is a ruling.

What exactly is the difference? You can use it as a Quarterstaff, meaning that if this interaction requires a Quarterstaff (or a weapon, which a Quarterstaff is) it's valid.

It's not sometimes you can use it as a Quarterstaff.

P1 - So I can use this staff as a Quarterstaff?
DM - Yes.
P1 - But not as a weapon, despite a Quarterstaff being a weapon and this staff being usable as one?
DM - Apparently so.

Seems silly.

[thoroughlyS]

You can light a crayon to use as a candle. That doesn't mean a candelabra can hold one. Same story. You can use an arcane focus to hit someone. That doesn't necessarily mean it counts as a weapon for booming blade. While I use that interpretation at my table, that doesn't mean it's a truth of the game. If my DM decided against it, I wouldn't say they were wrong. Sure, I might ask why they rule it that way. If they say they don't think arcane focus staves are quarterstaves, I would point them in the same directions we've brought up in this thread. If they say they just don't want that mechanical interaction at their table, I'd talk with them about it. But I wouldn't just say that they were wrong, because technically they aren't. The rules of this edition are intentionally open to interpretation to empower the DM.

[ProsecutorGodot]

You can light a crayon to use as a candle. That doesn't mean a candelabra can hold one. Same story. You can use an arcane focus to hit someone. That doesn't necessarily mean it counts as a weapon for booming blade. While I use that interpretation at my table, that doesn't mean it's a truth of the game. If my DM decided against it, I wouldn't say they were wrong. Sure, I might ask why they rule it that way. If they say they don't think arcane focus staves are quarterstaves, I would point them in the same directions we've brought up in this thread. If they say they just don't want that mechanical interaction at their table, I'd talk with them about it. But I wouldn't just say that they were wrong, because technically they aren't. The rules of this edition are intentionally open to interpretation to empower the DM.

It's not really the same story. Staves explicitly say that you can use them as quarterstaff. Every staff is a functional quarterstaff unless otherwise stated.

But, like I said in the first post, technically a DM could be pedantic about it and disallow nonmagical staves from being used as Quarterstaff as they don't have the wording that most magical ones do that says "this staff can be wielded as a quarterstaff". But then they'd also have to be picking about the Skyblinder Staff in GGtR that gives you a bonus to attack and damage rolls while using it as a quarterstaff but doesn't have wording that says you can.

If the thing you are holding is a quarterstaff, it is a weapon. Staff being allowed to be used as quarterstaff means they are weapons. Something can be an arcane focus and something else, we have instances of weapons and shields functioning in this way already. The difference is that almost every Staff is a functional weapon and Arcane Focus, but no Quarterstaff is functional as an Arcane Focus, unless something says so explicitly.

[Damon_Tor]

Everyone is proficient with unarmed strike. It's still explicitly not a weapon.

There's no RAW way to make unarmed strike count as weapon.

There are plenty of races with a natural weapon that can be used for unarmed attacks, and natural weapons are weapons. If this concept is vital to the OPs concept he should consider choosing a race with a natural weapon.

[ProsecutorGodot]

There are plenty of races with a natural weapon that can be used for unarmed attacks, and natural weapons are weapons. If this concept is vital to the OPs concept he should consider choosing a race with a natural weapon.

Unarmed Strikes are explicitly not made with weapons:

Instead of using a weapon to make a melee weapon attack, you can use an unarmed strike: a punch, kick, head-butt, or similar forceful blow (none of which count as weapons).
and since you need to "make a melee attack with a weapon" to cast spells like Booming Blade, it might not work since features that give you a natural weapon use wording that specifies they are considered unarmed strikes.

This is an example of some poor wording in 5e.

[Witty Username]

Grab an enemy and use their fist as an improvised weapon, problem solved.

[Lunali]

That only says it "can be used as a quarterstaff", not that it is one. The reason this matters is that booming blade and green-flame blade both require you to make a melee attack "with a weapon". There is no way to circumvent this restriction and technically (even if you can use an arcane focus as a quarterstaff) it still isn't a weapon.

For what it's worth: I allow this interaction at my table, but I know that this is a ruling.

Improvised weapons are still weapons, even if you decide to classify them as if they were another actual weapon and use the stats from that instead.

[Lavaeolus]

Unarmed Strikes are explicitly not made with weapons:

and since you need to "make a melee attack with a weapon" to cast spells like Booming Blade, it might not work since features that give you a natural weapon use wording that specifies they are considered unarmed strikes.

This is an example of some poor wording in 5e.

I could see this as an example of specific-beats-general. That is, the general rule is that you can use a forceful blow to make an unarmed strike. Then the specific rule overriding it is that, say, a tabaxi can use a (natural) weapon to make one.

I'm not, however, entirely sold on that interpretation, enough that I couldn't earnestly begrudge a DM for ruling otherwise. RAI, this Crawford tweet (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/996536482306273280) seems to indicate it being the case. Crawford usually rules against Divine Smite working with unarmed strikes, because of Smite's text mentioning a weapon (albeit it's not written as part of the actual trigger), but mentions that a natural weapon would fulfill the criteria.

It's something I'd definitely clear with a DM first, and it raises some other questions. As the tweet alludes to, it creates a situation where, if going by the designer's intent, you might now have to separate the more general concept of 'a weapon' [inclusive of both objects and natural weapons] and 'a weapon' [a discrete object that functions as the former but is separate from someone's body]. You must do so on a case-by-case basis without clear guidance.