Druids, Animal Companions, and Vow Feats

[Carden-Gix'oth]

So, was doing some looking around the forum, and maybe I missed something, but the only thread I found was this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?517385-DND-3-5-Vow-of-Poverty-on-an-Exalted-Animal-Companion).

So, Druid player. Aasimar Druid. Has a Tiger as an Animal Companion, and found the Vassal of Bahamut PrC. Her Tiger recently gained his 15th HD, and as per the Druid rules (and MM Vol 1 rules, and Savage Species rules) her tiger is due another Feat. And can take and gain the benefits of the Vow Feats. No issues there.

She wants Lazaroth (tiger) to take Sacred Vow.
My argument is you you can't take a Vow if you're not Sentient. (Tigers have 2 INT, sentience is 3+ in 3.5e)
She countered "If I take Exalted Companion, he gets 3 INT", and she's right.

Thing is, she knows I know she wants to have Laz take the Vassal Of Bahamut PrC. Which, RAW, a sentient creature could do if they meet all prerequisites.

My question is: What do?

Should I allow this, and if not, why? And how would I go about saying no without sounding like an ass "I'm the DM, I said no. I don't need a reason"

[Darg]

3 int may be human-like intelligence but the average human has 10 intelligence. For game play purposes 3 int let's the player character stay themselves with penalties. That keeps it simple. For RP purposes it could be used to say that the creature can willingly know it is giving a vow, but not understand it's significance.

Ask if your player is wanting to take a derivative feat down the line. If they aren't I don't see a problem. If they are, suggest that they find a way to boost intelligence at least semi-permanently such as using a headband of intellect. Also, vow of poverty is not a good option for animals as they aren't giving up anything as they are already impoverished. The point and power of a vow is that you are giving something up. If they are wanting to take vow of poverty I would strike it down as simply power gaming.

Oops, I skipped the part about wanting to take class levels. While the creature is a companion it is governed by the rules of companions. It doesn't gain actual HD and therefore can't take class levels unless they set it free from service and awaken it as a cohort or something similar.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Exalted Companion allows the Druid to have a Celestial Creature (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm) animal companion, which has Int to 3 if it was lower, and a good alignment. However, it does not retroactively update their current companion to a Celestial creature. They would need to dismiss their current companion and summon a new one with the template, it's an inherited template so a creature must be born with it. Granted you (as DM) could hand wave the part about replacing the current companion, and just have her perform the ritual as though summoning a new one to modify her existing companion. In either case the new version of the companion would have all the default feats and skill ranks of a MM Tiger, and she can repick those for any additional HD from being an animal companion.

Vassal of Bahamut requires Craft (armorsmithing) 5 ranks and Diplomacy 5 ranks, with Int 3 it only gets one skill point per HD, and those are cross-class skills for it. It can't reasonably expect to take ranks in either skill without Int 3+, but on top of that you can't reasonably expect a tiger to be able to learn to craft armor, and Celestial Creature doesn't grant any languages so you also can't reasonably expect it to learn diplomacy. Even if it could learn those skills, gaining ten cross-class skill ranks takes twenty skill points, at one skill point per HD it couldn't hope to qualify until it has 26 HD.

Animal companions don't gain experience points, if it doesn't gain experience it can't gain class levels. Even if it did, you would need to assign a LA for the tiger itself, it would have another +2 LA for Celestial Creature, and all of its HD including those from being an animal companion count toward its ECL. It would start at 0 xp and need to gain a portion of the party's xp if it ever hopes to level up.

[PrismCat21]

Just keep it simple and avoid the headache

Animal Companions can't take Class Levels

[Edea]

Animal companions don't gain experience points, if it doesn't gain experience it can't gain class levels.

This right here sums it up. The bonus HD advancement for animal companions as their druid gains class levels is not the same as gaining class levels themselves; those are just basic d8 animal hit dice.

[Carden-Gix'oth]

This right here sums it up. The bonus HD advancement for animal companions as their druid gains class levels is not the same as gaining class levels themselves; those are just basic d8 animal hit dice.

Sure, sure. But they still gain bonuses to Saves (Good Fort/Ref, Poor Will), BAB As a druid with the same HD, and Feats. So it's, for all intents and purposes, the same as leveling up.

I kinda have to play Asmodeus's advocate here, as my player isn't present...

[Khedrac]

Sure, sure. But they still gain bonuses to Saves (Good Fort/Ref, Poor Will), BAB As a druid with the same HD, and Feats. So it's, for all intents and purposes, the same as leveling up.

I kinda have to play Asmodeus's advocate here, as my player isn't present...

They may qualify for the class, but as they never take a class level they can never take the class.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you want the animal companion to be able to gain class levels, he needs to take Leadership and make it his cohort, and you need to assign a level adjustment to it. Even then, its animal HD count toward its total ECL, which significantly limits how many class levels it can gain.

An animal companion gains 2 HD for every 3 levels the Druid gains. A Celestial Tiger is a 'Level -7' companion, but if he has Natural Bond that's only -4.

Assuming you give the tiger itself no LA and only use the +2 for Celestial Creature, the tiger's ECL isn't going to be two lower than the Druid character's level until the Druid is level 16 without Natural Bond, or 20 with it. That means the tiger can start taking class levels when the Druid is level 17 or level 21 depending on whether or not he has Natural Bond, provided his Leadership score is high enough to have a cohort only two levels below him. If he takes Epic Leadership his cohort can be up to his own level, but again the leadership score is going to be the limiting factor.

[Endarire]

As GM, do you want this animal companion to take this PrC? If so, allow it. If not, disallow it. State that it's based on your preference.

[Twurps]

I'm with endarire in that if you want to allow it, go for it. I never find myself needing to give very strong buffs to my druid players, but YMMV. However:


Sure, sure. But they still gain bonuses to Saves (Good Fort/Ref, Poor Will), BAB As a druid with the same HD, and Feats. So it's, for all intents and purposes, the same as leveling up.

Well sure, if you ignore everything that is different, then what you end up with is pretty much the same. It's actually not the same though, with one of the main differences being that AC's don't get to pick a class to advance in. the just get bonus animal HD.