The Warlock - Society

[GrayDeath]

For this question, assume the following:

1.: roughly 99 out of 100 nondivine "Casters" are Warlocks.

2.: This has been the case for at least 2 milennia.

3.: Races that gain racial Spellcasting dont exist exxcept for Dragons, and they keep to themselves, as most of the time.

4.: Divine Casters work as normal, but really really rare (lets say that each God ahs half a Dozen Favoured Souls and between 15 and 50 Clerics, and the continent has 4-5 Druid Circles thats it).

Edited for clarity: 3 Continents travalable mundalnely (of course supernaturally its easier etc, but no impassable Swamps/Mountains 45 km high etc)., assume around 4500000 People and between 5 and 8 % Warlock and/or Warlock-capable (babies/Children, etc).

Edit 2: Warlocks are both born AND made. You need the Spark (10% have it) and decide to do a pact/succesfully male one (only 8%ish do).
Also they CAN be of any non LG Alignment, but Chaotic Neutral, and any Evil, make up around 80%, the rest is spread among true neutral, Chaotic Good and neutral Good.


How would Civilization develop differently?

How would the Ruling Class look?

What can the overabundance of Warlocks do against regular Enemies/low level Threats abroad?

Would Wizards even develop far enough for academies/how does the really low number influence their Casting/Standing?


Discuss!

[Bavarian itP]

So, 99% of non-divine casters are warlocks, but how many % of people are non-divine casters?

And how much people are there in general?

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I would assume this means that all Good-aligned divine classes are going to be occupied primarily with the eradication of arcane magic, since 99% of it comes directly from devils and demons?

[GrayDeath]

So, 99% of non-divine casters are warlocks, but how many % of people are non-divine casters?

And how much people are there in general?

Assume that around 10 percent of the population has the potential, and (depending on the Drive/Monster attacks/etc) 80% of those actually become Warlocks.

Lets also assume the 3 continents are able to be traveled to and from mundanely, and the total number of people would also be influenced heavily by how my questions are answered, but for this time lets say average size is equal to europe, and we have similar population numbers (not counting the eventual influence the result of this whole experiment has) 15 Million people per continent (ergo average FantasyAge numbers).


I would assume this means that all Good-aligned divine classes are going to be occupied primarily with the eradication of arcane magic, since 99% of it comes directly from devils and demons?

This would also be part of my question, as even the base fluff does not suggest the majortiy of patrons is Devils or Demons, just "Oursiders or similar beings able to bgrant powers".


actually this is one of the things my question aimed for
Indeed I would postulate that Good Entities would jump onto the wagon and also create Warlocks.

Hence why iI didnt state it.

Actually I for one think this the Beginning of "The War for the Locks"^^

[H_H_F_F]

As stated, that depends on how many casters there are, generally.

However, from your phrasing I can assume that non-divine casters are much more abundant than divine ones, which probably means that "magic" and "warlocks" are pretty much interchangable in the mind of the average person.

So I'd say a lot depends on how powerful martials are and how rare warlocks are. You could conceive of everything from a world in which magic users are hunted down and considered abominations, to one in which they are the overlords of creation. Your choice.

On that same balance, either wizards are pretty normal, or they don't even exist, or anything in between.

[GrayDeath]

Answered above.

So assuming my above numbers the world would have around 3.6 Million people between Child wanting to become a Warlock and Warlock.
Depending, of course, on how this would shape society, hence my original questions. :)

Edit: I edited the OP accordingly.

[Particle_Man]

Looks like healing is more rare? So diseases are more prevalent? Undead are also more dangerous?

Also, non-Warlock arcane casters will have to either hide or keep explaining that they are not warlocks.

And as Warlocks are either evil or chaotic, they (and this most arcane casters) will have a bad reputation in LG societies even if they do not make deals with demons.

[nedz]

Well, Warlocks will be weaker than normal because there are fewer items for them to UMD, but they are the only game in town.

Also, assuming that they dominate political life, then this will be Chaotic or Evil. So big Kingdoms / Empires will be unlikely.

This will make LG weak as well - which will likely affect the divine casters also since most gods will be C or E.

[Bavarian itP]

And as Warlocks are either evil or chaotic

Not in 3.5 ...

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Not in 3.5 ...

Yep, Warlocks are required to be Chaotic and/or Evil in 3.5. I think that's more than enough to give arcane casters a reputation as hard-to-control.

If roughly 8% of people are becoming Warlocks, I think most of them are going to be seeking out deals with the Fey rather than with Demons. Either way, society as a whole is having a lot more contact with the patrons than it otherwise would. That's gonna make them less mysterious, and more a known quantity. That also means those patrons are going to find it relatively easy to get involved in mortal politics; in some places, the patron you're aligned with may be equivalent to a political party, or perhaps to a local sports team.

[Yogibear41]

Rise of the Eldritch Disciples.

[Asmotherion]

If Magic is available to less people, the few people that have it will prevail more and have less competition. This is the basic premise of a Sword and Sorcery setting.

Though Warlocks are a bad example of this, as they have quite a good selection of Invocations, an Excelent attack, and their ability to Craft and Use any magic Item makes them versalite enough to compete with a mid level wizard. So they'd probably end up a higher social class than mundanes, as they are useful enough to a Wizard, but not a threat enough to need to take out. Maybe the Law enforcers of the Ruling Wizard (social) class I guess?

Or form a Warlock-Centric Army, and try to Overthrow the Wizard Overlords.

Maybe even both.

[JyP]

How would Civilization develop differently?
So instead of wizards (high Int focusing on study) and sorcerers (high Cha bloodlines) you mainly have to do a pact with a surnatural entity to be granted supernatural powers... Seems to me like a world with a lot of competing human tribes in neverending wars, as surnatural entities fight a proxy war through humans.


How would the Ruling Class look?
Aztecs with a lot of blood sacrifices for demonic entities ! Louis XIV The Sun King, Versailles Court, musketteers like, for faerie entities (Castle Falkenstein) ?


What can the overabundance of Warlocks do against regular Enemies/low level Threats abroad?
Combat armors won't develop as much, as any warlock can throw eldritch blasts which are at will ranged touch attacks. Expect a lot of mobility warfare (mongols ?), definitely not full plate armors.


Would Wizards even develop far enough for academies/how does the really low number influence their Casting/Standing?
While grimoires to make pacts are more abundant but still a coveted resource, we can expect Wizards to be nonexistant - unless a surnatural entity has a specific agenda... maybe a lot like psionics in Dark Sun setting.

[StevenC21]

Thats actually an important question - does Psionics exist in this world?

[Xervous]

At 8% they could potentially just take over the world, level spread permitting. Noncasters become chattel, faith dwindles. I vaguely feel like I’ve read this novel series before...

[Telonius]

Magic item production would look very, very different. With 99% of the arcane casters being Warlocks, it would be extremely unusual to find somebody capable of crafting any item with an Arcane spell as a prerequisite; only 12th-level Warlocks and above would be able to pull it off (after getting Imbue Item). An arcane wand would be a rare and powerful thing.

A lot will depend on the fluff. The class description in Complete Arcane specifies that Warlocks are born, not made; and not really from any sort of pact magic. They aren't bound to follow the tenets of whatever entity gave them their power, and getting power through occult pacts is more of a Binder thing than a Warlock thing. (The two classes are thematically related, though, and I believe they were munged into a single class in 5th ed).

[GrayDeath]

Thats actually an important question - does Psionics exist in this world?

No.


Lets for an easier answer state the following:

Warlocks dont HAVE to be Chaotic or Evil, however Chaotic and/or Evil Forces are more likely to sire people who then become Warlocks.

And that you ahve to have "the Spark" to make the Pact, but thena gain,a round 10% of the populace could, and around 85 do, become Warlocks in time.

Rest stays as above (will add it to the OP).

Interesting to draw the Mayan/Aztec Conclusion, whichw as my first thought, Tribes with Blood Sacrifice to capricious beings, and in Return you gain their Power in your Tribes Blood/the fitting Pact.

[JyP]

Interesting to draw the Mayan/Aztec Conclusion, whichw as my first thought, Tribes with Blood Sacrifice to capricious beings, and in Return you gain their Power in your Tribes Blood/the fitting Pact.
Note that with one warlock for every twelve people, your world would have a *lot* of surnatural entities. Maybe a lot of shamanic beliefs, with each tree / river / house / weapon having its own name and spirit.

Or maybe a world where everyone becomes a ghost once dead, and you gain warlock powers through your ancestors.

Or a world plagued with faerie which can fall in love with humans, who then have to compete in the endless faerie stories.

Or a world with a lot of shooting stars / meteorites which harbor strange whispering metals.

[Eldan]

Wouldn't have to be a world with many supernatural beings, though of course, Warlocks of local river spirits could be fun. You could just have a state tradition of every youth swearing loyalty to the national spirit/demon/god and some being rewarded with powers for it.

[JyP]

Wouldn't have to be a world with many supernatural beings, though of course, Warlocks of local river spirits could be fun. You could just have a state tradition of every youth swearing loyalty to the national spirit/demon/god and some being rewarded with powers for it.
Yes, you can have societies heavily influenced by one supernatural entity instead of many.
Though I wonder what kind of entity would basically grants a free gun with unlimited ammo to one youth in 12 (every left-handed ones ?).

You may not have a society based on martial prowess, strength or even wits with this kind of power - only those which satisfy the entity criterias could raise their status. Or you could have the Brutal Exterminators praising Zardoz :smallbiggrin:

Zardoz speaks to you, his chosen ones. You have been raised up from brutality, to kill the brutals who multiply, and are legion. To this end, Zardoz your god gave you the gift of the gun. The gun is good.

[nedz]

You've covered Wizards and Sorcerers, but what about other Arcane casters ?

Maybe it's a racial thing: Only Gnome can be Beguilers, Elves Dread Necromancers and Orcs Warmages or something ?

[JyP]

You've covered Wizards and Sorcerers, but what about other Arcane casters ?

Maybe it's a racial thing: Only Gnome can be Beguilers, Elves Dread Necromancers and Orcs Warmages or something ?
Well, 1.: roughly 99 out of 100 nondivine "Casters" are Warlocks.

On a total of 4.5M people, you have 450k potential nondivine casters. All these are potential warlocks (360k or more are even confirmed warlocks) except 4500 not-warlocks.

Each not-warlock can be opposed by 80 confirmed warlocks on average. So it makes sense that not-warlocks are either tolerated but kneecapped by warlocks, or in secrecy, or isolated.

For example, with only 45k (immortal) elves in the setting (1% of total population), and 10% elves not-warlocks nondivine casters, we would have our whole not-warlock casters.

Edit : seems to me 1 not-warlock caster per 1000 people could be in line with usual D&D worlds... But that 1 warlock per 12 people is truly world shaping. It could also be that all people born during the Month of the Warlock are potential warlocks, now that I think about it.

[JyP]

Wouldn't have to be a world with many supernatural beings, though of course, Warlocks of local river spirits could be fun. You could just have a state tradition of every youth swearing loyalty to the national spirit/demon/god and some being rewarded with powers for it.
Note that we have 26 least invocations - it could easily match with 26 entities all involved in this world and each having a separate country, with an average of 173k people or 14k warlocks per country.

[GrayDeath]

You've covered Wizards and Sorcerers, but what about other Arcane casters ?

Maybe it's a racial thing: Only Gnome can be Beguilers, Elves Dread Necromancers and Orcs Warmages or something ?

As Jyp said, there are so few that I am assuming only the obvious Wizard (study) and Sorcerer (Dragon Children) exist, and that they are either hidden or usually "removed" early on.

After all, even fully built a handfull of Level 20 Wizards will never reach the optimization. assumed Spell Access, and likely not even live past a certain Level unless they are wise enough to hide or Kiss ass. ^^

Imagine V in a Warlock dominated World hehe

[JyP]

With warlocks everywhere and surely the ruling class, you can also infer some taboo / bans on thrown or ranged weapons, so warlocks have the monopoly on ranged warfare.

In the same way, I can see a caste society where you cannot get close to warlocks unless you are their personal servant, to discourage melee attacks.

It may be a setting where Resistance is done by commoner monks in fact !

[Bavarian itP]

Yep, Warlocks are required to be Chaotic and/or Evil in 3.5.

Is this from an errata? Because the warlock from Complete Arcana, pages 5-10, is totally not required to be chaotic or evil.


Warlocks are often chaotic or evil (page 6)

[PoeticallyPsyco]

You want the Game Rule Information section on pg 7:


Alignment: Any chaotic or any evil

There is not, however, any clause for losing class features if your alignment changes, so progressing invocations and EB with a prestige class while non-evil/non-chaotic is relatively legit.

[Bavarian itP]

Yeah, you're right. I read the "alignment" section and ... there are two of them :smallsigh:

[GrayDeath]

No differing opinions, or new ideas anyone?

[JyP]

No differing opinions, or new ideas anyone?
I think the main impact would be shaped by each entity agenda, so I see :

with no armors & gunslingers everywhere :
- aztecs and blood sacrifices, for demonic entities
- pirates, swashbucklers & musketteers, with shining high nobility, for faerie entities with a Castle Falkenstein vibe
- celtic tribes from the Mother Earth (Slaine) for a more primordial vibe
- all Renaissance settings, with Religions Wars (between entities)
- the Wild West, or the Dark Tower deserts from Stephen King in fantasy like settings (neutral entities)
- Harry Potter
- futuristic settings, with Cthulhu Mythos (for outsider entities)

So you can have the usual fantasy tropes except knights in shining armors, replaced with gunslingers with shining guns (so Roland in The Dark Tower).

[Martin Greywolf]

So we have slightly less than 1 in 10 people being able to do magic, basically assigned randomlly. Well.

First of all, that idea about not developing armor? Entirely, absolutely wrong.

The basis of most of the pre-modern cultures lies in the fact that people want to do, very generally, two things: 1) live comfortably and 2) make sure their kids do as well or better. When you look at societal order through these lens, aristocracy and feudalism suddenly makes a lot of sense, because once you manage to get high enough to establish a kingdom-level organization, you will make damn sure your children will inherit it, in most cases.

Even in cases where this doesn't happen explicitly - mostly thinking of bronz age priesthood-based cities - it will happen implicitly by kids of priests getting into priest schools more easily. Nepotism is the name of the game.

With that mindset, enter a world where random people get what are essentially superpowers. Pre-modern agrarian society can afford to have roughly 5-10 percent of its population in jobs that don't produce or distribute things directly, so stuff like clergy, aristocracy and military. You could, in theory, fill it with just the warlocks, but see the above problem? There is only a in 10 chance your kid is a warlock as well.

What's worse, those that are warlocks pose a direct threat to those that are not, since thay have a plethora of tools at their disposal. Going from this idea, you have a few models you can adopt.

Aristocratic European model

Warlocks are adopted into the ranks of knights as a matter of course. They serve as knights did, in administrative, military and judicial roles. Long-term, this is not a sustainable model since while you adopt warlocks, you still have ordinary people in aristocracy, and your aristocracy bloats to Hungarian level (at one point, third of people had a title). You end up with impoverished nobles in name only, with real power falling into the hands of a few magnates - nobles who successfully managed to consolidate power and land into their hands.

These eventually come to blows, and once one wins, he promptly declares other nobility mostly not noble, starts a new country and the cycle can repeat.

Army is organized along small groups of an experienced knight with retinue - if the knight is a warlock, retinue is also warlocks, remember that this is also an apprenticeship model of society.

Monastic Orders model

Once a walrock is discovered, they forgo all rights to personal posessions, titles and land and go join Warlock Order. This provides education, shelter and so on and so forth, and since ownership is communal, offers resources that are vast to most people. This order is, needless to say, hugely influential, to a point where it is running the country at least in some respects.

Warlocks not associated with the Order do exist, but raising one of them takes a lot of money, and are therefore limited to rich nobles and merchants, and foreigners. Maybe a few personal apprentices.

Army organization same as above.

Ottoman model

Warlocks get to be semi-slaves, taken from families at birth. They are "children of the state", and while contact with former family is allowed, it's hard to keep in touch. Like the order model above, this warlock caste is pretty prestigious, unlike the Order model, most warlocks are in military service or administration, directly in employ of the state. They have a fair amount fo freedom and authority.

Army has an elite warlock corps that is immensely feared, and only to do battle outside of borders, the rest are just militias and peacekeeping forces.

Armor

While there are warlocks that can bypass it, a lot of them are in administration, not military. Therefore, armor develops the same as usual, because 100 archers is 100 archers. Chain mail didn't disappear when bows got heavy enough to penetrate it, it just got relegated to a niche. There are still rich people without warlock powers, after all.

However, heavy cavalry that had pivotal role in medieval battles is replaced by warlocks, no matter how they are organized. They have pivotal roles in battle, and it is around them the battle plans revolve. As a result, military doesn't quite carry such a prestige as it did in real life, as it is in the best interests of policy makers for it to... not do that. It is still a good profession, but no more than that.

[Toliudar]

This translates relatively well to the thousands of ways in which comics have dreamed up relationships between supers and regular folks. If one in ten is a potential mutant (warlock), but there's no particular reason for the warlocks to like each other or trust each other (since they're also the ones most likely to be able to kill you), you could have everything from a LE non-warlock empire using warlock slaves, to factories of warlocks turning out magic items for the benefit of all and enrichment of themselves.

[JyP]

So we have slightly less than 1 in 10 people being able to do magic, basically assigned randomlly. Well.

First of all, that idea about not developing armor? Entirely, absolutely wrong.

[...]

Armor

While there are warlocks that can bypass it, a lot of them are in administration, not military. Therefore, armor develops the same as usual, because 100 archers is 100 archers. Chain mail didn't disappear when bows got heavy enough to penetrate it, it just got relegated to a niche. There are still rich people without warlock powers, after all.

However, heavy cavalry that had pivotal role in medieval battles is replaced by warlocks, no matter how they are organized. They have pivotal roles in battle, and it is around them the battle plans revolve. As a result, military doesn't quite carry such a prestige as it did in real life, as it is in the best interests of policy makers for it to... not do that. It is still a good profession, but no more than that.
The warlock's eldritch blast is a ranged touch attack, hence why I thought more about handguns (or maybe laser guns) than bows & crossbows. Armor, shield, natural armor doesn't mean a thing to ranged touch attacks... And with such an abundance of warlocks since 2000 years, I see armors going the same way as in our world with gunpowder... so armies post-1750 style, but without cuirassiers as 1500+ years passed since warlock's hegemony.

I like a lot your description of the aristocratic / monastic / ottaman models :smallsmile:

If we continue with real worlds parallel : we can expect big predators to have disappeared even faster (mammoths, smilodon, rhinoceros), as big size or armor is a liability versus warlocks. I even wonder how the eldritch blast would work in the water, as it could be unimpeded - unlike physical weapons. So a more fast, agile and stealthy fauna, if there are not too much warlocks with darkvision to hunt them...