Assuming downtime permits it, is Brew Potion for a Paladin or Ranger a good idea?

[Arkhios]

So, to me it seems like it would be at least a decent idea, because both classes have such a limited amount of spell slots usable per day, even if they had a higher-than-usual spellcasting score.

Whether it makes or breaks it, I have access to the Magical Knack (https://aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Magical%20Knack) -trait, meaning I'd start with a Caster Level 4* immediately when I get the spellcasting ability.

*Rules in use are 3.5, not Pathfinder (in which case, obviously, my CL would start from 3 instead)

Worthwhile to note:

I'm only able to use very basic rules for D&D 3.5 (mainly content matching official System Reference Document) and Pathfinder Chronicles content made with D&D 3.5 in mind up to until Second Darkness Adventure Path (original).
Frankly, I'm only interested in whether Brew Potion -feat is a good idea for a Ranger (or, to somewhat lesser extent, for a Paladin). I'm not that interested in whether other crafting feats are better than Brew Potion.
Last, but not least, I've received enough answers to deduce that "maybe, but probably not" :smallamused:

[Afghanistan]

Brew Potion is generally considered the weakest item creation feat available only surpassed by Scribe Scroll strictly because Scribe Scroll is a bonus feat for a few classes and a domain.

If you genuinely want to make potions without wasting a precious feat slot, purchase a Gremma's Cauldron from the Expedition to Undermountain module. It cost 5,000gp and allows you to brew potions as if you had the feat in question, for 25gp a day you can also brew up a potion of Cure Light Wounds, and furthermore, you can convert Scrolls into Potions if applicable.

[nedz]

Only in a low wealth campaign. Otherwise: potions are cheep - so just buy them; because Feats are rarer than cash.

[Arkhios]

Can't say whether the campaign is low wealth or not, to be honest. I don't have a clue.

Items from elsewhere than SRD and what the campaign itself provides are out of question.

In general I disagree that crafting scrolls or potions was bad or weak. On the contrary, in my honest opinion, they have potential to increase your own effective output at the cost of losing vanishing amounts of experience (numbered in very few digits). I'm just unsure whether paladins or rangers get more or less mileage out of brewing/scribing than the other casters.

[Telonius]

Remember that cooperative item crafting is a thing. If it's Pathfinder, it requires a feat; if it's regular 3.5, you can just do it (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm):


Prerequisites

...

It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.

If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.


So the question isn't really which class gets the most out of the feat; if anybody in the party has it, the whole party has access to it. The question is really about which character has the most wiggle room in their character build to spend a feat on item creation. Typically that's not going to be a Paladin or a Ranger. Both classes are kind of feat-starved (particularly Paladin). If you're going Core-only, a typical Cleric or Wizard will probably have the most room.

[Arkhios]

Remember that cooperative item crafting is a thing. If it's Pathfinder, it requires a feat; if it's regular 3.5, you can just do it (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm):



So the question isn't really which class gets the most out of the feat; if anybody in the party has it, the whole party has access to it. The question is really about which character has the most wiggle room in their character build to spend a feat on item creation. Typically that's not going to be a Paladin or a Ranger. Both classes are kind of feat-starved (particularly Paladin). If you're going Core-only, a typical Cleric or Wizard will probably have the most room.

Yeah, I'm aware of this.

To be fair, taking Brew Potion as a ranger myself came up due to having finally gotten into playing Witcher 3, and realizing Geralt is essentially a ranger, except with a few differences here and there. Having played the game for a while now, I kinda like the idea of being self-sufficient in alchemy. While my intention is not (after all) to make a direct portrayal of Geralt, I do want to have some similarities with the White Wolf.

My go-to build will be sword-and-board two-weapon fighting, and aside from TWF feats, the only other feats I need (and I'm able to take with our source restrictions) are Improved Shield Bash and Quick Draw. As a ranger, I don't have to worry about taking the three other feats, only make sure my armor in use permits the use of them (I just double-checked it, medium or heavy load doesn't interfere with Combat Style, only medium and heavy armor do!)

I do feel I have some more wiggle room for feats, than one might expect.

That said, our group will have at least a single-classed druid and a single-classed sorcerer, as well as a rogue that may become Arcane Trickster if stats permit it, so cooperative crafting will almost certainly be a thing.

Myself not making a cleric is a conscious choice. I really don't think a Cleric is a must have in every game. We have a druid, which is basically a bit more specialized cleric. So what if we don't have turn undead? Know what else the undead obey? Damage!

[Psyren]

I'm confused - you're using PF traits but only 3.5 is allowed?

[Arkhios]

I'm confused - you're using PF traits but only 3.5 is allowed?

Fact check:

Golarion was made with 3.5 in mind, and had four whole adventure paths set in there using 3.5 rules. The third adventure, Second Darkness, introduced traits to Pathfinder in the first place, before Pathfinder Core Rules were released. Yes, I've played Pathfinder Society since Season 0 started, before 1st edition Pathfinder even came to be, so I've seen the system evolve from the beginning. I just didn't have a regular group to play Adventure Paths back then.

Anniversary Editions for some of the oldest Adventure Paths are called that for a reason; original ones were written for 3.5, anniversaries are converted to Pathfinder. We're playing through the originals.

[Psyren]

Fact check:

Golarion was made with 3.5 in mind, and had four whole adventure paths set in there using 3.5 rules. The third adventure, Second Darkness, introduced traits to Pathfinder in the first place, before Pathfinder Core Rules were released. Yes, I've played Pathfinder Society since Season 0 started, before 1st edition Pathfinder even came to be, so I've seen the system evolve from the beginning. I just didn't have a regular group to play Adventure Paths back then.

Anniversary Editions for some of the oldest Adventure Paths are called that for a reason; original ones were written for 3.5, anniversaries are converted to Pathfinder. We're playing through the originals.

Fair point on traits existing before PF, but your link to the trait itself was to a PF entry/site. So yes, I was confused.

[Arkhios]

Fair point on traits existing before PF, but your link to the trait itself was to a PF entry/site. So yes, I was confused.

Archives of Nethys doesn't list them more than once, if it's not absolutely necessary. The link lists all the sources where the Trait appears, on the same page. Second Darkness Player's Guide being one of them.

[nedz]

Can't say whether the campaign is low wealth or not, to be honest. I don't have a clue.

Items from elsewhere than SRD and what the campaign itself provides are out of question.

In general I disagree that crafting scrolls or potions was bad or weak. On the contrary, in my honest opinion, they have potential to increase your own effective output at the cost of losing vanishing amounts of experience (numbered in very few digits). I'm just unsure whether paladins or rangers get more or less mileage out of brewing/scribing than the other casters.

It's a question of cost versus benefit.

You gain the ability to choose which potions you have access to, subject to your ability to cast the spells, and the ability to make them at half cost (this is not true of Cure Light Wounds BTW - which is a level 2 spell for you) at a cost of a feat. So availability may be improved though you should expect to be able to acquire level 2 potions before 8th. You will also want to buy potions of spells you cannot ever cast.

Scrolls are half the cost again, but are harder to use in combat.

[Piggy Knowles]

With Magical Knack you should have CL 5 when you get your level 6 feat, right? In that case, I'd probably recommend Craft Wand over Brew Potion. It's significantly more cost-efficient, and spell trigger items use the casting time of the base spell, so if you make wands of swift action ranger spells you'll be able to use them as swift actions in combat. Dual wielding means you'll have plenty of space for wand chambers. Of course the downside is that your allies can't use the wands, but overall wands are something I find remain useful through most of the game, while potions really fade in usefulness and cost effectiveness fast.

To compare, crafting a wand of a 1st-level spell requires 325gp and 30 XP for 50 charges, or 6.5gp and .6 XP per casting. Meanwhile a 1st-level potion costs 25gp and 2 XP to brew. Go up to 2nd level and it's 45gp and 3.6 XP for a wand vs 150gp and 12 XP for a potion per casting.

Overall, if you have lots of downtime and aren't feat starved, I think magical item creation feats are never a bad idea, so if you really like the flavor of being a potion brewer I think it'll be fine. I just feel like you'll get more mileage out of other magic item options if you're not specifically attached to Brew Potion.

[Thunder999]

Why would you want to craft potions when you could make scrolls for half the price?

[icefractal]

Potions aren't worthless but they're not great either.
There's a rather broken Druid archetype in Pathfinder that lets you make potions for free (may have been errata'd at some point). Combined with the right feat those potions can be off the Sor/Wiz list as well.

So I made a character to test this, at (IIRC) 6th-7th level where potions are still about as effective as they're going to get. Even with that, the results were honestly underwhelming. Most of the best long-duration buffs are self-only, offensive spells suffer from the low DCs (and the need for a delivery mechanism), and while unlimited out-of-combat healing is handy, there are other ways to get it.

Handing out dozens of potions to the whole party, or constantly chugging them to keep rounds/level spells active may have produced more impressive results, but I was trying to be sustainable (ie. use potions at a rate that could be replenished without huge downtime between every adventure). And if you were actually paying for this, you'd want to be more parsimonious.

[Arkhios]

Potions aren't worthless but they're not great either.
There's a rather broken Druid archetype in Pathfinder that lets you make potions for free (may have been errata'd at some point). Combined with the right feat those potions can be off the Sor/Wiz list as well.

So I made a character to test this, at (IIRC) 6th-7th level where potions are still about as effective as they're going to get. Even with that, the results were honestly underwhelming. Most of the best long-duration buffs are self-only, offensive spells suffer from the low DCs (and the need for a delivery mechanism), and while unlimited out-of-combat healing is handy, there are other ways to get it.

Handing out dozens of potions to the whole party, or constantly chugging them to keep rounds/level spells active may have produced more impressive results, but I was trying to be sustainable (ie. use potions at a rate that could be replenished without huge downtime between every adventure). And if you were actually paying for this, you'd want to be more parsimonious.

Well, first of all, Pathfinder Archetypes, especially one made for Druids, when I'm going to play a Ranger, really doesn't aid me at all, when in our campaign timeline, the game system change is still 12 adventure path books ahead of us :smallamused:

Secondly, I feel you misunderstood my intent of using Brew Potions. My intent wasn't to act like Friar Tuck, sharing a cart-load of booze with the Merry Men everyday, while constantly marinading myself with them. Rather, I would make potions from utility spells that I don't need all the time, but might need in special circumstances. Potions don't have a Use Before date, and although potions are limited to up to 3rd level spells, you can craft them at a higher caster level than their minimums. They may be costly, sure, but again, Ranger doesn't have many spell slots to begin with and you must have the spell prepared to make a potion out of it. Plus, you can only make one potion per day, so I'd make it count and make the potion as strong as possible.

I realize that Wands would probably be more cost-effective, but I've understood we'll have somewhat erratic amount of downtime available, so brewing potions is better for short downtime periods.

[icefractal]

Well, first of all, Pathfinder Archetypes, especially one made for Druids, when I'm going to play a Ranger, really doesn't aid me at all, when in our campaign timeline, the game system change is still 12 adventure path books ahead of us :smallamused:It's a technique known as "comparison". My point if that if making a larger number of higher-level potions for free isn't all that amazing, then making a smaller number of lower-level potions will be even less amazing.

Whether it's worth it? Depends what else you'd use the feat for, and the availability of markets - if you can buy what potions you need then this feat is just a situational discount.

[Arkhios]

It's a technique known as "comparison". My point if that if making a larger number of higher-level potions for free isn't all that amazing, then making a smaller number of lower-level potions will be even less amazing.

Whether it's worth it? Depends what else you'd use the feat for, and the availability of markets - if you can buy what potions you need then this feat is just a situational discount.

Here's a summary of the Adventure Path we're about to undertake shortly:

Broad summary: Book 1 is wide open for crafting. Book 2 is very much not. Transition to Book 3 is open for some crafting, but Book 3 is not. 3 to 4 is doable depending on how the GM wants to handle the transition. Book 4 would be rougher to justify. 4 to 5 and Book 5 are pretty much off the table. 5 to 6 is possible, but not by much. Book 6 crafting is pretty much impossible.

After Book 1 it is a pretty fast paced AP with stakes that are pretty huge and immediate.

Although they said that crafting is more or less impossible, I have hard time believing there wouldn't be at least a day's breather here or there (then again, Second Darkness is said to be one of the worse AP's, if not the worst). Anyway, crafting that takes longer than 1 day, is more likely out of question, so that leaves me with either scribe scroll or brew potion (if I still want to pursue this idea, that is). Wands, maybe, if I stick to creating Caster Level 1 Wands from 1st level spells.

[icefractal]

Oh, Second Darkness. That description sounds accurate - from a relatively early point, there's time pressure (exact amount unknown, but implied to be urgent) and the stakes are high.

On the other hand, there's not a lot of opportunities for shopping either, so if there are potions you really need it could make sense to craft them. I'd say look into crafting helpers like a homunculus in a portable hole, but I'm pretty sure by the time you can afford those you'll already be in the "shopping is rare" zone.

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho feats are to important to waste on crafting feats unless you are optimizing a specific crafter character build.

I would rather consider a build with 2 levels of Chameleon to get the floating feat (FF). In downtimes the FF can be used for ANY crafting feat and later be exchanged into a more adventure oriented one. Further you get access to all spells up to lvl 2 for crafting. And last the combat focus does give you some nice combat boosts for your regular adventuring day.

[Arkhios]

Imho feats are to important to waste on crafting feats unless you are optimizing a specific crafter character build.

I would rather consider a build with 2 levels of Chameleon to get the floating feat (FF). In downtimes the FF can be used for ANY crafting feat and later be exchanged into a more adventure oriented one. Further you get access to all spells up to lvl 2 for crafting. And last the combat focus does give you some nice combat boosts for your regular adventuring day.

No chance for that. Chameleon is from a source we can't use.

[Jack_Simth]

So, to me it seems like it would be at least a decent idea, because both classes have such a limited amount of spell slots usable per day, even if they had a higher-than-usual spellcasting score.

Whether it makes or breaks it, I have access to the Magical Knack (https://aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Magical%20Knack) -trait, meaning I'd start with a Caster Level 4* immediately when I get the spellcasting ability.

*Rules in use are 3.5, not Pathfinder (in which case, obviously, my CL would start from 3 instead)
Brew Potion is for lower levels when you want to give spells to folks who don't have them. E.g., so that the party Fighter can use Cure Light Wounds occasionally. This is mostly because they're twice the cost of scrolls, and more limited in use (all decisions made at brewing time must be made at brewing time, the spell only affects the imbiber even if the base spell is multiple target, can't brew potions of personal spells, et cetera).

If your intent is to stretch your spells per day (which it seems to be), then you want either Scribe Scroll (for occasional spells that you'll want Right Now, such as Restoration) or Craft Wand (for the spells you'll want to use regularly). They're much less expensive per slot and they're fully functional: you can use multiple-target spells with them, you can use personal spells with them, you can make decisions at casting time, et cetera.

[darkdragoon]

You'd probably have to comb over the lists of what you have access to but I think the main sticking point is several of the Ranger/Paladin spells that could be interesting as a one shot item aren't eligible for potions. And if it's it mostly healing that may be the issue, ye old wand of CLW, Lessor Vigor etc. is probably way more bang for your buck.

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

Take Leadership or another feat that grants a cohort who has item creation feats. You'll get far more mileage, and you dont have to worry about downtime, because your cohort can use as much crafting time as you tell them to use.

[daremetoidareyo]

If you could chug a potion as a swift action, it would be worthwhile, so the potions aren't going to be combat useful, as so many spells from the lists are Swifts.

I think that's where wands come in.

Plus potions possibly disallow personal range spells due to the language about targetting, which is wierd and I've never really understood it. Which takes a big chunk out of your best spells.

But, if youre just doing spare spell slots for utility, I still think scrolls are a better way to go.

[Arkhios]

Take Leadership or another feat that grants a cohort who has item creation feats. You'll get far more mileage, and you dont have to worry about downtime, because your cohort can use as much crafting time as you tell them to use.

That's horrible idea in 3.5
A cohort gains a proportional experience based on the character's experience gained, and is already behind the character by at least 2 levels.

Crafting magic items costs experience points in 3.5. Having your cohort craft magic items would result in even worse progression for cohort than it already is. The math is designed so that your cohort gains levels whenever you do. If they craft magic items, they'll lag more and more behind you. Besides, cohort doesn't exist in their own vacuum. They travel with you, and have just as much downtime as you have. If you just left a cohort somewhere, they'd just leave you. A cohort is not a slave that does everything you tell them to do.

If we were playing with Pathfinder, this would be a lot better idea, but we're not.


If you could chug a potion as a swift action, it would be worthwhile, so the potions aren't going to be combat useful, as so many spells from the lists are Swifts.

I think that's where wands come in.

Plus potions possibly disallow personal range spells due to the language about targetting, which is wierd and I've never really understood it. Which takes a big chunk out of your best spells.

But, if youre just doing spare spell slots for utility, I still think scrolls are a better way to go.

None of the ranger spells in SRD are swifts.
Granted, I haven't checked all the other splat books for 3.5 (as they won't matter to me anyway), so there might be more.

As a friendly reminder, if it wasn't clear: we're not playing with Pathfinder. We're playing with 3.5.

[Endarire]

Pathfinder doesn't require a feat to have others help create items (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-item-creation/). (Check the Cooperative Crafting part.) Whoever wrote the Cooperative Crafting (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/cooperative-crafting/) feat didn't understand this.

[Arkhios]

Pathfinder doesn't require a feat to have others help create items (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-item-creation/). (Check the Cooperative Crafting part.) Whoever wrote the Cooperative Crafting (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/cooperative-crafting/) feat didn't understand this.

The feat in question doesn't exactly say it's the only way to cooperate in crafting. What it actually does, it lets the one with the feat to assist another in making the items in question more efficiently and faster.

It's clearly not intended as a replacement to a rule, but an addition.

If it was a replacement, it would have a paragraph for "Normal:..."

[Mordaedil]

I think the only real question is "are you going to drink these potions yourself?".

If yes; Go with scribe scroll instead, same thing but with half the cost.

If no; Go with brew potion and make sure you split them across the party. If you have a party that actually accepts your stuff, mine always refuse me when I offered.

If you can afford to wait though, wands cost only base 15 gp per cast, compared to the scroll's 25 gp or the potions 50 gp. You also won't need anything more powerful than a wand. But it's kinda of a save/cost feature you have to make on your own. Ask your group what they need.

[Troacctid]

If allowed, Inscribe Rune (PGtF) is a lot better, since runes can hold more types of spells and are more action-efficient to use. Craft Wondrous Item is also likely to be generally better as well because of its versatility. (The ranger list is actually not too shabby for crafting wondrous items.)

[Thurbane]

Isn't there some kind of magic cauldron, possibly in a FR adventure, that gives brew Potion for free?

[Gavinfoxx]

I would suggest Inscribe Rune or Craft Wondrous Item.

[Thurbane]

Isn't there some kind of magic cauldron, possibly in a FR adventure, that gives Brew Potion for free?

I was thinking of Gremma's Cauldron (EtU p.217; 5,000gp) - it doesn't work how I remembered; it halves the brewing time for those who already have Brew Potion. More importantly, it lets you turn scrolls into potions by spending some GP and XP. As a bonus, it can also churn out a Potion of Cure Light Wounds 1/day, costing 25gp and taking 4 hours.

So while not exactly giving Brew Potion, it does allow anyone with access to scrolls (or the Scribe Scroll feat) a close facsimile.

[Arkhios]

I really didn't want to be blunt about this, but I asked one thing, and expected to receive an answer to that specific question, not to be siderailed to some other options entirely (some of which are from a rather obscure source at that, suggested in a way that obviously everyone knows of them!)
Although, I should've known not to. I guess I expected too much.

...

No, I can't take Gremma's Cauldron. I said this already upthread. The source itself in it's entirety is unavailable to me.
Same goes with pretty much everything else outside of 3.5 PHB or DMG.

I asked about Brew Potion simply because creating a potion is an exception to the general rule, that creating a magic item takes 1 day for every 1000 gp in the item's market price (minimum 1 day). Potions always take a day to brew. Regardless of their market price.

Despite having played the game (3.5 and 1ePF combined) for a little less than two decades, I have yet to play a single character with the Brew Potion feat. Or rather, a non-alchemist who have taken the feat. I may have joined these forums in 2015, but I joined the hobby back in 2002

[Yogibear41]

If you are evil aligned and can use BOVD sacrifice rules to make low level potions or scrolls for free (other than time/feat investment) yes, if you are not, probably no. Maybe scribe scroll.


Fun fact a paladins Detect evil (or good for evil variants) is a SLA with a caster level, so you can qualify for scribe scroll at level 1 (or brew potion/craft wondrous item at level 3)

[Arkhios]

Fun fact a paladins Detect evil (or good for evil variants) is a SLA with a caster level, so you can qualify for scribe scroll at level 1 (or brew potion/craft wondrous item at level 3)

Intriguing, if true, and if my DM reads it that way!

Although, Brew Potion can be taken at 1st caster level already just as Scribe Scroll.

But alas, Book of Vile Darkness is likewise forbidden. And so is playing an evil character.

[Ashiel]

So, to me it seems like it would be at least a decent idea, because both classes have such a limited amount of spell slots usable per day, even if they had a higher-than-usual spellcasting score.

Whether it makes or breaks it, I have access to the Magical Knack (https://aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Magical%20Knack) -trait, meaning I'd start with a Caster Level 4* immediately when I get the spellcasting ability.

*Rules in use are 3.5, not Pathfinder (in which case, obviously, my CL would start from 3 instead)

In almost all cases I would recommend Craft Wondrous Item instead, since you can use item creation rules to create potion-like (read: single use items usable by anyone) items and also other things besides potions. That said, Rangers and Paladins probably have more reason to take Brew Potion than any other core class, and that's because they get a lot of good spells at very low spell levels. Spells that are regularly useful during almost any adventure.

For example, Rangers get delay poison and resist energy as 1st level spells. These make you immune to poison for 1 hour and give resist 10 to an energy for 10 minutes respectively, and protection from energy as a 2nd level spell. Paladins get things like lesser restoration as a 1st level spell, and potion form is the only way it's practical to use in a fight (the cast time on the restoration line of spells is 3 rounds).

That said, there's a good reason why most recommend Scribe Scroll or Craft Wondrous Item, and that's because they tend to be more broad in their usage, while providing similar benefits, and to some people being able to use a scroll of spike growth or some other non-buff sort of spell when you need it is really nice. In the case of crafting Wondrous items, there's little beyond GM Fiat that prevents you from making potion-like items that are just 1-charge single use items (they're amusingly cheaper to boot), and also allows you to make other useful things like boots, cloaks, rings, and neat doodads.

[Arkhios]

In almost all cases I would recommend Craft Wondrous Item instead, since you can use item creation rules to create potion-like (read: single use items usable by anyone) items and also other things besides potions. That said, Rangers and Paladins probably have more reason to take Brew Potion than any other core class, and that's because they get a lot of good spells at very low spell levels. Spells that are regularly useful during almost any adventure.

For example, Rangers get delay poison and resist energy as 1st level spells. These make you immune to poison for 1 hour and give resist 10 to an energy for 10 minutes respectively, and protection from energy as a 2nd level spell. Paladins get things like lesser restoration as a 1st level spell, and potion form is the only way it's practical to use in a fight (the cast time on the restoration line of spells is 3 rounds).

That said, there's a good reason why most recommend Scribe Scroll or Craft Wondrous Item, and that's because they tend to be more broad in their usage, while providing similar benefits, and to some people being able to use a scroll of spike growth or some other non-buff sort of spell when you need it is really nice. In the case of crafting Wondrous items, there's little beyond GM Fiat that prevents you from making potion-like items that are just 1-charge single use items (they're amusingly cheaper to boot), and also allows you to make other useful things like boots, cloaks, rings, and neat doodads.

You make good points there, also regarding Wondrous Items. Although, I'm fairly certain all rings are crafted with the Forge Ring feat (which has a prerequisite of 12th caster level!)
That said, I had forgotten that some consumables fall into Wondrous Items as well, such as Silversheen, the (IIRC) only way to deal silver damage without reducing the weapon's damage!


ON HINDSIGHT, I just realized what's more important to me, personally. It's the flavor rather than mechanics. Flavorwise there's a slight disconnect between ranger and paladin in regards to whether Brew Potion is good.
In my opinion, ranger makes more sense to brew potions than paladin, while paladin makes more sense to scribe scrolls than ranger.

NOTE: This is just an opinion: Rangers are more at home in the wilderness, and likely encounter/gather suitable ingredients on their travels more than paladins do, and mixing potions from those ingredients seems ideal. Similarly, Paladins are more comfortable around holy texts and might even pursue writing them as well. Scribing Scrolls of Divine spells is thematically quite close to writing holy texts. In a sense, it could be reasonable to say that Ranger's should have Brew Potion and Paladins should have Scribe Scroll. As a bonus, I like this also because it inherently suggests that paladins should actually be quite intelligent, instead of being "dunces". :smallbiggrin:

[Thurbane]

No, I can't take Gremma's Cauldron. I said this already upthread. The source itself in it's entirety is unavailable to me.
Same goes with pretty much everything else outside of 3.5 PHB or DMG.

You know, sometimes people come in mid-thread, with the best of intentions, and may skim or not read all of the posts - I'm usually fairly careful with that, but sometimes when reading the forums on a meal break at work, I don't do "due diligence". Sorry for offering an option. :smallconfused:

[Arkhios]

You know, sometimes people come in mid-thread, with the best of intentions, and may skim or not read all of the OP posts. Sorry for offering an idea.

Also, for posterity, someone else might be asking the same question, and have more sources available to them.

Fair. FWIW, I'm honestly sorry I get upset about it, it's just somewhat annoying when I'm looking for an answer to one simple question and people more or less hijack the thread to promote their own ideas or preferences (whether or not they're good for someone else). It really doesn't matter where I would ask these questions, because people seem to be the same everywhere. And still I tend to hope people could stick to the topic at hand. But again, I'm sorry for not having the patience to tolerate this kind of behaviour. I get that it was made with best of intentions, and it's true someone else might get more mileage out of an option I can't use myself. But I still think it's also fair that I mention I can't use it, and explain why.

[Thurbane]

I know, and I sometimes get a little frustrated when this happens in threads I start.

I try to remind myself that most people answering aren't trying to be malicious or deliberately ignore the OP. Most are tying to offer helpful suggestions, or get excited to be able to share a bit of system knowledge that not everyone might know about.

And as I mentioned, even if its not useful for you right now - who knows? Someone else might stumble on this thread ion weeks, months or years to come and find an option they never thought of before.

I know deliberately de-railing is rude, and in this case that offering a suggestion that someone else had already offered (and I missed) is less than useful.

[nedz]

Despite having played the game (3.5 and 1ePF combined) for a little less than two decades, I have yet to play a single character with the Brew Potion feat. Or rather, a non-alchemist who have taken the feat. I may have joined these forums in 2015, but I joined the hobby back in 2002

Then you should take it and play that concept.

Is it a good idea from a char-op POV ? Probably not, but so what ?

[Vaern]

I asked about Brew Potion simply because creating a potion is an exception to the general rule, that creating a magic item takes 1 day for every 1000 gp in the item's market price (minimum 1 day). Potions always take a day to brew. Regardless of their market price.

You gain 4th level spells at level 14, with paladins having a caster level of half your class level. Scrolls of your most powerful spells, barring material components, will have a market value of 700 gp and take 1 day to craft. The exception to the crafting time rule is nice for a full caster who wants to mass-brew potions of spells waaaay above their minimum caster level, but as a paladin you're just not likely to need that exception. Using Brew Potion to get around that crafting time limit shouldn't be necessary at all for you.

Brew Potion retricts you to 3rd level spells or lower, meaning you can't make consumables of your highest level spells once you get there. Maybe you're not planning on your game reaching the point where you have access to 4th level spells which makes this a non-issue, which is fine. Just something to take into consideration.

Potions need to be consumed to take effect, meaning they're only really good for buffs and healing. Granted, this is just about your entire spell list and will practically be a non-existent restriction for you, but if you do happen to have some offensive or debuffing spells that you want to take advantage of you'll be unable to do so through potions.

Brew Potion also costs twice as much as Scribe Scroll to craft a single consumable of the same spell. There is a reason for this, of course.
The real benefit of Brew Potion is that anyone can pick up and drink a potion. No need to have the spell on your class list, no need for a UMD check, just pop the cork and chug it.
If you're planning on handing out potions for your party to buff and heal themselves, Brew Potion will be the better choice. If you're planning on stockpiling just for yourself, Scribe Scroll has just about every advantage.

Just one more random tidbit, though, just for the sake of flavor:
Complete Arcane suggests a handful of alternatives to consumable magic items. These alternatives are functionally identical to their core counterparts and would be craftable using the same feats and exist only for cosmetic purposes. You could, for example, take Brew Potion as a chef/baker-themed character and create magical pastries, cookies, biscuits, etc. which grant effects as a potion when consumed. If your DM lets you make superficial decisions like the form your "potions" take, Brew Potion could end up being outright more fun than alternative options.

[Efrate]

I understand the thematic and fluff choice, but scribe scroll works out to be quite a bit superior. Why cannot your wilderness focused ranger take time to Chronicle his adventures, and maybe do a bit of magical writing in the same time frame? You could even fluff it as writing a scroll as a passage, "Those goblins almost got me, luckily the nature answered my call for the plants to slow them down. A useful thing to have on hand, entangle.

In reality look at your class spell list, especially if limited to SRD, and see which spells you might need in a pinch. If they mostly qualify for brew Potion, go there. If they mostly do not, scribe scroll.

[nedz]

Another approach is to build a character around Druid which is effectively a Ranger - just with better spell progression.

You can do the same for Paladin with a variety of builds.

There are even the Prestige Ranger and Prestige Paladin PrCs which will do this for you out of the box - however you can easily be more creative than these.

Ranger and Paladin are roles - not just base classes.

[Jack_Simth]

Plus potions possibly disallow personal range spells due to the language about targetting, which is wierd and I've never really understood it. Which takes a big chunk out of your best spells. Oh, that's more due to personal range spells being really good, due to being intended for squishy casters. There's more opportunity cost with scrolls and wands (UMD) than there is with potions (no check). At least, I think that's the official "logic" of the matter of why no personal-range spell potions....

[nedz]

Well, you could dip 2 levels of Chameleon and try out the various item creation feats as you wish ?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, you could dip 2 levels of Chameleon and try out the various item creation feats as you wish ?Not in the PHB, DMG, or MMI, I'm afraid.

[RSGA]

That does give a very small bonus to Scribe Scroll, as in core it's got the only (if restricted) cost reducer in the form of the Caster's Shield. Half off the material costs of a scroll of spell level 3 or less while also being a normal +1 light wooden shield. Of course, it also requires you to be using the middle child of core shields.

[Rebel7284]

Worthwhile to note:

Last, but not least, I've received enough answers to deduce that "maybe, but probably not" :smallamused:



That really is the answer. Brew Potion is not completely useless, but the flexibility and/or savings you get are extremely limited and likely won't affect very many encounters. You can certainly find some other feat that improves your flexibility more, even with limited sources.

[Arkhios]

Another approach is to build a character around Druid which is effectively a Ranger - just with better spell progression.

You can do the same for Paladin with a variety of builds.

There are even the Prestige Ranger and Prestige Paladin PrCs which will do this for you out of the box - however you can easily be more creative than these.

Ranger and Paladin are roles - not just base classes.

I mean, sure. I could make a druid acting like a ranger, but there's another player in our group who wants to play a druid and I really wouldn't want to step on their toes, figuratively speaking. I'd rather let the less experienced players choose their class first and pick mine from the classes not chosen yet. As it is, the other characters are pretty much set in stone: a gnome druid, an elf rogue, and a human sorcerer, only missing the finer minutiae such as attributes. Currently, I'm spitballing ideas regarding Barbarian, Bard, Ranger (or Paladin) and a Campaign Setting specific variant for Cleric, though that's the least interesting option for me right now.


That does give a very small bonus to Scribe Scroll, as in core it's got the only (if restricted) cost reducer in the form of the Caster's Shield. Half off the material costs of a scroll of spell level 3 or less while also being a normal +1 light wooden shield. Of course, it also requires you to be using the middle child of core shields.

Well, that sprung up an idea: I was already planning to go Two-Weapon Fighting with a shield (and take Improved Shield Bash, obviously), and a Light Shield is a light off-hand weapon. Technically, I could get a Bashing Caster's Shield at a cost of 6,153 gp (adding the difference between a +1 and a +2 shield enhancement to the original cost of a Caster's Shield), even though that deduction is questionable at best.


That really is the answer. Brew Potion is not completely useless, but the flexibility and/or savings you get are extremely limited and likely won't affect very many encounters. You can certainly find some other feat that improves your flexibility more, even with limited sources.

I may yet reconsider taking the Brew Potion after all. Might as well not take any crafting feats and consider some entirely different path for progress; the thing is, just pondering these questions beforehand makes making the decisions at relevant level so much easier, especially because there's no way to "retrain" bad decisions away (at least not without a certain 4th level psionic power, that is).