a very rough draft of something i have been thinking about for awhile. no class d20

[vasilidor]

Classless d20 pathfinder
at start each character gains 2500 experience to start a character. Everyone starts with a +0 base attack and 0 bonus to all saving throws and no skills with max rank of 0. starting hit points are equal to their constitution. All characters start able to use simple weapons and light armor.
Attributes are determined by rolling a pool of 24d6. They are then arranged to the players design so that no attribute is below a 3 or above an 18. then after this racial modifiers are applied. Alternatively the players may instead distribute 85 points and then apply racial modifiers. Each attribute can never be below 3 or over 20 on game start. Attributes may be increased by spending twice the square of the attribute in experience points once the game gets underway.
When a character first gains a level in one of the four primary levels they gain certain benefits. When caster level is increased to 1 the player needs to pick 2 magical talents and a castor attribute (intelligence, wisdom or charisma). They may also create for themselves a magical tradition as outlined in spheres of power. With each further increase in caster level the player picks an additional magic talent. Individual magic talents may be purchased as feats. The characters may then purchase spell levels separately provided their castor level is twice that of the desired spell level (0 level spells count as half a spell level). Each time the character buys a spell level they gain 1 spell slot and 2 known spells. All casters are considered spontaneous. Further spell slots and spells known must be purchased with experience. Every 4 caster levels the character gets a free +1 to one attribute.
When a character gains a level in attack they get a martial tradition as outlined in spheres of might. With each further increase in attack level gaining them another combat talent. Further combat talents may be purchased as feats. Combat talents that provide skill points for certain skills are limited to the characters skill level for max ranks. Every 4 combat levels the character gets a +1 to one physical attribute.
Hit Point level increase give 3+con modifier hp to the character, minimum increase of 1 hp. On the first increase and every odd after that the character gets to pick a feat. Every 4 hit point level increases the character may have any 1 attribute increased.
When a character buys a level in skill their max ranks increase by 1 and they gain 4+int modifier skill points. Further skill points may be purchased at a rate of 50 per rank. Further more the character gains 10 class skills of their choice and gain an additional class skill with every third increase in skill level.
General feats cost 200 each, combat feats cost 300 each, magic oriented feats (item creation, spell focus, meta magic, etc) cost 400 each. Features of existing classes can be bought for 600 experience and are tied to the hit point level of the character, the character HP level functions as the Class level for determining how effective their ability is.
Saving throw increases for fortitude, willpower and reflexes must be purchased separately.
Each character also starts with 150gp in gear. All of this gold must be spent or be lost. Each character will then begin play with 5d6 silver.
Spells known are to be picked from the alchemist, cleric, wizard, druid or witch spell lists. The character is not pinned to any one list and may choose freely from each. Arcane spell failure from armor applies to all spell casting, but not sphere casting (unless the character has that specific drawback as part of their casting tradition).
Alignments: for the purposes of this game, the only alignments in consideration are going to be good, selfish and evil. The vast majority of people are selfish and few are truly good or evil.
No Attributes may be raised above 24 without the use of magic items.

Experience cost


level
magic
combat
skill
HP



1
500
500
500
450



2
600
500
500
500



3
650
600
550
600



4
650
600
550
600



5
700
650
600
650



6
750
650
600
650



7
750
700
650
700



8
850
700
650
700



9
850
750
700
750



10
900
750
700
750



11
950
800
750
800



12
1000
800
750
800





spell level
cost
extra spell slot cost
extra spell known
saving throw*
cost
Misc.


0
250
250
50
+2
300
general feat 200


1
500
500
100
+3
400
combat feat 300


2
1000
750
150
+4
500
class feature 600


3
1500
800
200
+5
600



4
2000
1050
250
+6
700



5
2500
1300
300
+7
800
Themed Spell List???


6
3000
1550
350
+8
900
Magic feat 400

[vasilidor]

level
Hit points
combat
Skill
Magic


0
Constitution HP
nada
Zip
Zilch


1
first feat, con mod+3 hp
+1 base attack, martial tradition
10 class skills, int mod+4 skill points
magic tradition, caster level +1, 2 magic talents


2
Con mod+3 hp
+1 base attack, +1 combat talent
int mod+4 skill points
+1 magic talent, +1 caster level


3
Feat +1, con mod +3 hp
+1 base attack, +1 combat talent
+1 class skill, int mod+4 skill points
+1 magic talent, +1 caster level


4
Attribute +1, con mod+3 hp
Attribute +1, base attack +1, +1 combat talent
Attribute +1, int mod +4 skill points
Attribute +1, +1 magic talent, +1 caster level


5
Feat +1, con mod +3 hp
+1 base attack, +1 combat talent
int mod+4 skill points
+1 magic talent, +1 caster level


6
Con mod+3 hp
+1 base attack, +1 combat talent
+1 class skill, int mod+4 skill points
+1 magic talent, +1 caster level


7
Feat +1, con mod +3 hp
+1 base attack, +1 combat talent
int mod+4 skill points
+1 magic talent, +1 caster level


8
Attribute +1, con mod+3 hp
Attribute +1, base attack +1, +1 combat talent
Attribute +1, int mod +4 skill points
Attribute +1, +1 magic talent, +1 caster level


9
Feat +1, con mod +3 hp
+1 base attack, +1 combat talent
+1 class skill, int mod+4 skill points
+1 magic talent, +1 caster level


10
Con mod+3 hp
+1 base attack, +1 combat talent
int mod+4 skill points
+1 magic talent, +1 caster level


11
Feat +1, con mod +3 hp
+1 base attack, +1 combat talent
int mod+4 skill points
+1 magic talent, +1 caster level


12
Attribute +1, con mod+3 hp
Attribute +1, base attack +1, +1 combat talent
Attribute +1, int mod +4 skill points, +1 class skill
Attribute +1, +1 magic talent, +1 caster level

[vasilidor]

Does the playground have any thoughts or constructive criticism?

[aimlessPolymath]

Initial thoughts:

Attributes are determined by rolling a pool of 24d6. They are then arranged to the players design so that no attribute is below a 3 or above an 18. then after this racial modifiers are applied. Alternatively the players may instead distribute 85 points and then apply racial modifiers. Each attribute can never be below 3 or over 20 on game start. Attributes may be increased by spending twice the square of the attribute in experience points once the game gets underway.
I don't see why I'd want to use this instead of normal point buy or character generation ignoring the rest of the fix. It seems to heavily emphasize min-maxing to bring key scores as high as possible, rather than an even mix of scores. Additionally, increasing scores via xp in addition to via normal levelling seems redundant.


When caster level is increased to 1 the player needs to pick 2 magical talents and a castor attribute (intelligence, wisdom or charisma). They may also create for themselves a magical tradition as outlined in spheres of power. With each further increase in caster level the player picks an additional magic talent. Individual magic talents may be purchased as feats. The characters may then purchase spell levels separately provided their castor level is twice that of the desired spell level (0 level spells count as half a spell level). Each time the character buys a spell level they gain 1 spell slot and 2 known spells. All casters are considered spontaneous. Further spell slots and spells known must be purchased with experience. Every 4 caster levels the character gets a free +1 to one attribute.

Why magic talents and also spellcasting? Why not stick to just magic talents? They're far more suited for this sort of point buy system.


When a character gains a level in attack they get a martial tradition as outlined in spheres of might. With each further increase in attack level gaining them another combat talent. Further combat talents may be purchased as feats. Combat talents that provide skill points for certain skills are limited to the characters skill level for max ranks. Every 4 combat levels the character gets a +1 to one physical attribute.
Sure.


Hit Point level increase give 3+con modifier hp to the character, minimum increase of 1 hp. On the first increase and every odd after that the character gets to pick a feat. Every 4 hit point level increases the character may have any 1 attribute increased.

Less sure about this. Buying hit points separately seems messy, given how central hit points are to combat; I think chassis abilities like hit points, saving throws, and skill points should be bought as a package, rather than bought piecemeal. These passive defenses are high variance, come up unexpectedly and difficult to judge the impact of due to being rolled on a d20, making it difficult for players to judge how much they want to buy them.


When a character buys a level in skill their max ranks increase by 1 and they gain 4+int modifier skill points. Further skill points may be purchased at a rate of 50 per rank. Further more the character gains 10 class skills of their choice and gain an additional class skill with every third increase in skill level.

Very uncertain about this; I suspect that most people won't bother to invest after the first 2-3 levels.


General feats cost 200 each, combat feats cost 300 each, magic oriented feats (item creation, spell focus, meta magic, etc) cost 400 each.
I strongly disagree with this; a central point of Pathfinder is that every feat is (theoretically) equal in value, and is also equal in value to a combat talent, rogue talent, etc (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?570724-The-Adventurer-Mashing-half-of-pathfinder-into-one-class&p=23415092#post23415092). Variant multiclassing (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement/) indicates that several other abilities are equal in value to a feat, and should be treated as such. I would standardize these costs to one value.


Saving throw increases for fortitude, willpower and reflexes must be purchased separately.
Again, I suspect that letting people trade away passive defences is probably wrong.


When the characters hit point level equals the class level that the ability improves on the character may then spend an additional 100 exp points to increase it to the next improvement, or the character may spend 400 exp points to permanently tie it to their hit point level, making it increase whenever they increase their hit points.
Strong disagree on 'you can pay for this in two different ways, and the difference matters only at specific levels or depends on the order in which you buy things".


Alignments: for the purposes of this game, the only alignments in consideration are going to be good, selfish and evil. The vast majority of people are selfish and few are truly good or evil.
This is somewhat irrelevant to the proposed system, and should be its own discussion.

[vasilidor]

on the issue of spell casting, I am uncertain as to if I want to keep it. I know I want Spheres of might and power to be baseline standard. the issue of alignments is that it has been tied to the game since before pathfinder was pathfinder, so I felt it was worth addressing. on as to why I have different cost for magic, general, and combat feats is they are differing in value. skill focus does not have as much effect in game as spell focus, barring specific skills. I wanted Hit Points, Skills, Magic, and Attack ability to be seperate, but I am uncertain about seperating Attack and Hit points. I did want to attach the saving throws to skills, magic and Attack, as to allow characters to improve them without having to invest in something they may not want.

[vasilidor]

the class ability thing is another thing I am uncertain about, to be honest. but, in theory the idea is to not have it matter as to what order you buy things in.