Zombie Beholder + 2 Shadows vs LvL 5

[Drache64]

Zombie Beholder + 2 Shadows vs LvL 5 party.

Party:
Redemption Paladin
Moon Druid
Revised Beast Master Ranger
Lore Bard
Tempest Cleric
Bladesinger Wizard

Fight is happening as an ambush on the road at night, party is caught off guard but there will be no surprise round (they just don't have any defensive spells active like mage armor).

I am not the DM, but this is where my DM ended the last session. I am the typical DM and I am very familiar with these creatures... This looks like a TPK to me, or at least 2 players are going to die with no hope of resurrection at this level (Disintegration Ray, or shadows strength drain won't even allow death saves mixed with the fact our party can't cast resurrection yet at our levels).

[Unoriginal]

Zombie Beholder + 2 Shadows vs LvL 5 party.

Party:
Redemption Paladin
Moon Druid
Revised Beast Master Ranger
Lore Bard
Tempest Cleric
Bladesinger Wizard

Fight is happening as an ambush on the road at night, party is caught off guard but there will be no surprise round (they just don't have any defensive spells active like mage armor).

I am not the DM, but this is where my DM ended the last session. I am the typical DM and I am very familiar with these creatures... This looks like a TPK to me, or at least 2 players are going to die with no hope of resurrection at this level (Disintegration Ray, or shadows strength drain won't even allow death saves mixed with the fact our party can't cast resurrection yet at our levels).

Is it happening in Dungeon of the Mad Mage, by any chance?


If not, is there any reason why the PCs can't run from this fight?

[Drache64]

Is it happening in Dungeon of the Mad Mage, by any chance?


If not, is there any reason why the PCs can't run from this fight?

Well, I was thinking about this, but realistically this party wouldn't run. 1st many players are new and we've defeated everything so far pretty handily. I can't metagame and warn them how terrible this fight is going to be, most the party don't even know what a Beholder is.

My wizard could easily GTFO, but he wouldn't abandon the party, especially the Paladin or the Ranger. He'd rather die defending them (which it looks like I might have to do).

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Well, I was thinking about this, but realistically this party wouldn't run. 1st many players are new and we've defeated everything so far pretty handily. I can't metagame and warn them how terrible this fight is going to be, most the party don't even know what a Beholder is.

My wizard could easily GTFO, but he wouldn't abandon the party, especially the Paladin or the Ranger. He'd rather die defending them (which it looks like I might have to do).

You can always ask to roll the relevant knowledge to know what are those and choose to tell your party to run.

The paladin may one turn kill the zombie beholder.

The shadows are the real problem.
I will try to focus on them as the paladin charge the beholder.
Hast on the paladin may be a good idea.
Smite may save you all.

[stoutstien]

Both NPCs have easy weak spots to target to turn it into a medium- medium hard encounter. Not sure how tactically minded group table is so it depends on how the DM runs it but I don't think TPK is as likely as it first seems unless your group just panics.

[Drache64]

Sadly I don't have haste, as a bladesinger I'm pretty selfish with my spells.

Our cleric was about to cast daylight when the session ended but I don't think that will do anything...

[Kyutaru]

Well, I was thinking about this, but realistically this party wouldn't run. 1st many players are new and we've defeated everything so far pretty handily. I can't metagame and warn them how terrible this fight is going to be, most the party don't even know what a Beholder is.

My wizard could easily GTFO, but he wouldn't abandon the party, especially the Paladin or the Ranger. He'd rather die defending them (which it looks like I might have to do).

You could always just use your character's eyes and say "OMG WHAT IN THE HELLS IS THAT THING?!" and decide you should all run screaming from the horrifying monster with the giant mouth. I mean it works for normal people any time they see a bear. Heroes can sometimes be a little too brave and willing to face down things that are clearly beyond them when there's no shame in running from a pack of wolves.

[stoutstien]

Sadly I don't have haste, as a bladesinger I'm pretty selfish with my spells.

Our cleric was about to cast daylight when the session ended but I don't think that will do anything...

Even if your DM rules that daylight isn't counted as daylight (which is raw but just silly) it a huge debuff to the shadows action economy and would draw fire which could give the softer party member a round to buff and regroup.

[Drache64]

Even if your DM rules that daylight isn't counted as daylight (which is raw but just silly) it a huge debuff to the shadows action economy and would draw fire which could give the softer party member a round to buff and regroup.

That's true, maybe I should leave the shadows and focus on the beholder. I could cast darkness so the beholder can't target any of us with spells though as all the eye rays are "target a creature it can see".

I was thinking of scorching Ray 3rd level and 2 rays per shadow (4d6 vs 16hp) could kill each one on turn 1. (I used to be mystic and summon 2 Shadows all the time, I am very familiar with these guys.)

Then turn 2 cast darkness so the beholder is forced to bite only.

[stoutstien]

I wouldn't give the shadows darkness take advantage of. Fog cloud or silent image works if you have them.
I would try to disable the ZB and burn the shadows in some fashion.

Could kite the ZB as well. The shadows are quick but the ZB isn't in any sense.

[Drache64]

I wouldn't give the shadows darkness take advantage of. Fog cloud or silent image works if you have them.
I would try to disable the ZB and burn the shadows in some fashion.

Could kite the ZB as well. The shadows are quick but the ZB isn't in any sense.

But if I kill the shadows turn 1 then they don't get any advantage from my darkness on turn 2... Because they died.

[stoutstien]

But if I kill the shadows turn 1 then they don't get any advantage from my darkness on turn 2... Because they died.
That's a pretty big if seeing the possible that there are more shadows that have not been identified yet.

[Drache64]

That's a pretty big if seeing the possible that there are more shadows that have not been identified yet.

Either way darkness takes away their advantage. We're already in dim light or darkness because it's night or night fall.

But in magical darkness they can't see so at best they get a normal roll instead of Advantage and the beholder can't target us

Sure they get disadvantage in daylight but the beholder also gets a chance to disintegrate us.

[stoutstien]

I tend to approach situations from a party support point of view so maybe if you are confident you could remove he threats without hamstringing your own allies it could work. personally though, I would get control of the situation before worrying about anything else.

[Drache64]

I tend to approach situations from a party support point of view so maybe if you are confident you could remove he threats without hamstringing your own allies it could work. personally though, I would get control of the situation before worrying about anything else.

That's my thought with darkness bubble. It allows us to buff up then I can drop it if need be or party can step out, attack then jump back in

[stoutstien]

That's my thought with darkness bubble. It allows us to buff up then I can drop it if need be or party can step out, attack then jump back in

I was working with the exemption that you already had a cleric cast daylight which limits your targeting for darkness. that's why I suggested fog cloud or silent image which compliments that strategy rather than trying to counter your own party on top of the enemy. *Not to mention you could probably see through your own illusion*

[Drache64]

I was working with the exemption that you already had a cleric cast daylight which limits your targeting for darkness. that's why I suggested fog cloud or silent image which compliments that strategy rather than trying to counter your own party on top of the enemy. *Not to mention you could probably see through your own illusion*

I don't have fog cloud or illusion. But yeah, I don't think daylight is going to do what the cleric wants it to do. So once she sees that daylight doesn't disintegrate or turn these guys I don't think she'll mind me doing a different move.

[LudicSavant]

Zombie Beholder + 2 Shadows vs LvL 5 party.

Party:
Redemption Paladin
Moon Druid
Revised Beast Master Ranger
Lore Bard
Tempest Cleric
Bladesinger Wizard

Fight is happening as an ambush on the road at night, party is caught off guard but there will be no surprise round (they just don't have any defensive spells active like mage armor).

I am not the DM, but this is where my DM ended the last session. I am the typical DM and I am very familiar with these creatures... This looks like a TPK to me, or at least 2 players are going to die with no hope of resurrection at this level (Disintegration Ray, or shadows strength drain won't even allow death saves mixed with the fact our party can't cast resurrection yet at our levels).

There's nothing to worry about here. If those players are any good, this is a curb stomp in Team PCs favor. Team Monster doesn't stand a ghost of a chance. Seriously. It's over before it began.

Of course, this assumes that the players have any idea what they're doing. Something that would be ridiculously easy for an experienced player (not just to do once, but several times a day) can be deadly difficult for the kind of player who would never think to, say, use a vision blocking cloud on a beholder. But against a merely average group of players I'd expect 6 level 5 PCs to take at least half a dozen of these encounters a day.

[Drache64]

There's nothing to worry about here. If those players are any good, this is a curb stomp in Team PCs favor. Team Monster doesn't stand a ghost of a chance. Seriously. It's over before it began.

Of course, this assumes that the players have any idea what they're doing. Something that would be ridiculously easy for an experienced player (not just to do once, but several times a day) can be deadly difficult for the kind of player who would never think to, say, use a vision blocking cloud on a beholder. But against a merely average group of players I'd expect 6 level 5 PCs to take at least half a dozen of these encounters a day.

All the players are noobs still in the "what spells do I have?" Phase, except me. Most don't have sense enough to know what this thing is capable of.

Druid will be her 3rd session playing (joined late)
Tempest Cleric is 1st time player.
Ranger is first time player.
Paladin is 2nd campaign but still getting used to paladin.
Bard has bad stats and usually tries narrative things like using cantrips to do funny things instead of fight.

Then there's me, the veteran min maxed wizard...

[KorvinStarmast]

I wouldn't give the shadows darkness take advantage of. Fog cloud or silent image works if you have them. Yep, fog cloud to neutralize the zombie beholder.

As to "curb stomp" that depends on the initiative order. Ludic, the OP has noted that there are a lot of new players in the group ... which means that meta game knowledge of the monsters may be limited, which makes for sometimes odd tactical choices when seen from the PoV of a more grizzled veteran.

For Drache64: does the Ranger have fog cloud as a memorized spell? My ranger won't leave home without it.

[Drache64]

Yep, fog cloud to neutralize the zombie beholder.

As to "curb stomp" that depends on the initiative order. Ludic, the OP has noted that there are a lot of new players in the group ... which means that meta game knowledge of the monsters may be limited, which makes for sometimes odd tactical choices when seen from the PoV of a more grizzled veteran.

For Drache64: does the Ranger have fog cloud as a memorized spell? My ranger won't leave home without it.

No, she has mostly fluffy lore spells like speak with animals. The only combat based spell she has is Hunter's Mark which we just recently convinced her to pick up.

[KorvinStarmast]

No, she has mostly fluffy lore spells like speak with animals. The only combat based spell she has is Hunter's Mark which we just recently convinced her to pick up. Sweet. Good luck with the fight.

Speak with animals, we have found, is an interesting way to get intel during wilderness adventures. It's also a neat way to get intel from the inkeeper's cat when one is in town, or to (for a suitable quid pro quo, like a big old hunk of cheese) get a rat to do some scouting for you in an urban adventure ...

[stoutstien]

This might be an odd question but is this encounter potentially approachable from a non-combative angle? If the majority of the party isn't focused on combat then there's probably a non-combat solution that staring you in the face.

[Drache64]

This might be an odd question but is this encounter potentially approachable from a non-combative angle? If the majority of the party isn't focused on combat then there's probably a non-combat solution that staring you in the face.

We are a group called RAD (renegades against the darkness) ... (Not my vote i wanted Darkwatch). We have taken it upon ourselves (some martialed by their deities [paladin, cleric]) to defeat the dark 6. We stumbled upon Aureon's Basilica (god of knowledge's library) and it was tainted by the dark six. We left that place with a piece of a holy weapon on a mission to find the 5 other parts. This Zombie Beholder tracked us for 3 days before jumping us on the road right before breaking camp and said "you thought you could leave me in there!?" Assuming he means in the Basilica.

So this thing seems to be a pawn or possibly an aspect of the dark 6. I'm not sure diplomacy is an option based on our task and characters. My wizard would be fine to chat, but I don't think the Paladin, cleric, and Aasimar ranger would.

The DM also seems anti-diplomacy, every previous attempt to talk to enemies has been denied by the DM.

[LudicSavant]

As to "curb stomp" that depends on the initiative order. Ludic, the OP has noted that there are a lot of new players in the group ... which means that meta game knowledge of the monsters may be limited, which makes for sometimes odd tactical choices when seen from the PoV of a more grizzled veteran.

So the fear here seems to be that they'll win initiative and Disintegrate Ray someone. But the chance of that is slim to none.

1) They have to lose initiative, which is easier said than done when you have 6 PCs who should all have solid Dex scores (based on their classes) and initiative bonuses (such as JoaT) against a Beholder with -1 to initiative plus a Bard with access to Cutting Words.
2) Take the small percentage of the time that the Beholder wins initiative, then divide that by 4 to see how often they actually pick out a Disintegrate Ray.
3) Take that small percentage you divided by 4, then divide that by the percentage of the time they hit, factoring all defenses available to the PCs.
4) Take that small percentage that you divided by 4 and then divided by hit chance and then divide it again by the chance that 10d8 actually one-shots someone.

[stoutstien]

Well at least it's more interesting now because the zombie beholder is being driven by or has a higher than normal base intelligence/drive to deal with. Maybe the beholder the best Target if it's directing the shadows.
I was just realize you said your level 5 so why didn't the cleric just dropped turn / destroy undead once day light illuminates all the potential targets?

Edit: just got home so I looked up both those NPCs and the cleric has a good chance of basically one shot killing this entire encounter.

[Drache64]

So the fear here seems to be that they'll win initiative and Disintegrate Ray someone. But the chance of that is slim to none.

1) They have to lose initiative, which is easier said than done when you have 6 PCs who should all have solid Dex scores (based on their classes) and initiative bonuses (such as JoaT) against a Beholder with -1 to initiative plus a Bard with access to Cutting Words.
2) Take the small percentage of the time that the Beholder wins initiative, then divide that by 4 to see how often they actually pick out a Disintegrate Ray.
3) Take that small percentage you divided by 4, then divide that by the percentage of the time they hit, factoring all defenses available to the PCs.
4) Take that small percentage that you divided by 4 and then divided by hit chance and then divide it again by the chance that 10d8 actually one-shots someone.

I am a man who can really appreciate calculations. I do feel better looking at the numbers. I didn't look at the creature's stat block because I didn't want to cheat, I was just curious if this was a TPK. But multiple people have pointed out a few misconceptions.

1. I thought the beholder got antimagic field, but apparently zombie Beholders don't have that.

2. I thought it got to fire multiple rays of the DMs choice, 1 random Ray isn't that bad.

3. I didn't know it's stats sucked. So that bodes well.

Though just for clarification I'll add that AC doesn't matter against a targeted save or suck spell which all the rays are.

I'll also add that this is on open ground on the highlands with no cover, and no one in the party (including myself) have any of the spells people are recommending.

[LudicSavant]

I am a man who can really appreciate calculations. I do feel better looking at the numbers. I didn't look at the creature's stat block because I didn't want to cheat, I was just curious if this was a TPK. But multiple people have pointed out a few misconceptions.

1. I thought the beholder got antimagic field, but apparently zombie Beholders don't have that.

2. I thought it got to fire multiple rays of the DMs choice, 1 random Ray isn't that bad.

3. I didn't know it's stats sucked. So that bodes well.

Though just for clarification I'll add that AC doesn't matter against a targeted save or suck spell which all the rays are.

I'll also add that this is on open ground on the highlands with no cover, and no one in the party (including myself) have any of the spells people are recommending.

So what spells does everyone have?

[OvisCaedo]

The Tempest Cleric would actually ALWAYS have fog cloud prepared, as it's a domain spell for them. But it might not really be needed anyhow! Turn Undead is also innate to the class and not a spell choice, and the destroy undead advancement for it from level 5 looks like it would qualify for instantly killing the shadows if they fail their save.

[HappyDaze]

Afraid of a TPK, but also looking at options of winning the fight in a single round...

Yep, it's D&D 5e.

[stoutstien]

Afraid of a TPK, but also looking at options of winning the fight in a single round...

Yep, it's D&D 5e.

It's a sad Truth of how the game evolved. Designing encounters that have more than three or four meaningful rounds in them is possible but is a huge time sink.

[Unoriginal]

Afraid of a TPK, but also looking at options of winning the fight in a single round...

Yep, it's D&D 5e.


It's a sad Truth of how the game evolved. Designing encounters that have more than three or four meaningful rounds in them is possible but is a huge time sink.

Not sure how this situation is a "5e thing".

Shadows are known for being either death incarnate due to their STR-attacking or getting rekt rapidly due to being squishy incorporeal undead beings, and that also applies to other systems. Once my gaming group thought we were getting a TPK during our Pathfinder campaign due to a room with half a dozen Shadows and we were lvl 12+. Then it turned out we had something that protected us from the STR-drain and the Shadows died in about a round.

Meanwhile the Zombie Beholder is scary for a lvl 5 party but it's still an undead fighting a Paladin. And the action economy is definitively on the PCs' side here, even without taking into account it's a full-undead monster group that the Cleric can turn.


Now if 5e actually does have a tendency to have fights no longer than 3-4 meaningful rounds... honestly I wouldn't see it as a problem. 3-4 rounds is enough for an awesome, if not important fight, though important fights lasting longer is probably better.

[stoutstien]

Not sure how this situation is a "5e thing".

Shadows are known for being either death incarnate due to their STR-attacking or getting rekt rapidly due to being squishy incorporeal undead beings, and that also applies to other systems. Once my gaming group thought we were getting a TPK during our Pathfinder campaign due to a room with half a dozen Shadows and we were lvl 12+. Then it turned out we had something that protected us from the STR-drain and the Shadows died in about a round.

Meanwhile the Zombie Beholder is scary for a lvl 5 party but it's still an undead fighting a Paladin. And the action economy is definitively on the PCs' side here, even without taking into account it's a full-undead monster group that the Cleric can turn.


Now if 5e actually does have a tendency to have fights no longer than 3-4 meaningful rounds... honestly I wouldn't see it as a problem. 3-4 rounds is enough for an awesome, if not important fight, though important fights lasting longer is probably better.

its not just a 5e thing. PF and 3.X had similar issues with nova or die encounters. in a perfect world i'd like the majority of my encounters to have some back and forth in momentum for at least 2 rounds. i have roughly a 50% success rate lol.

[KorvinStarmast]

But the chance of that is slim to none. Hmm, I asked about fog cloud, but I read the post and Tempest Cleric didn't register on me. TC has fog cloud and has Turn Undead which will run off one or both of the shadows unless they do a great job of rolling saves and rendering the Turn Undead moot.

[J-H]

From a DM perspective, Shadows are incredibly fragile. At 16hp, a Fireball will kill them or nearly kill them. A Scorching Ray that all hits will kill them. Two castings of Magic Missile will kill one. Figure out how to knock out the Shadows fast, and then it's everyone vs. the Beholder.

[MaxWilson]

From a DM perspective, Shadows are incredibly fragile. At 16hp, a Fireball will kill them or nearly kill them. A Scorching Ray that all hits will kill them. Two castings of Magic Missile will kill one. Figure out how to knock out the Shadows fast, and then it's everyone vs. the Beholder.

IMO they're not fragile at all once you take resistances into account. Shadows are resistant to acid, cold, fire, lightning, thunder, and nonmagical BPS. Three hits with Scorching Ray will only do 3d6 (10) damage, not enough to kill one. Even if they fail their Fireball save, they'll take only 14 points of damage from the typical Fireball, surviving with 2 HP, and that's if you even spotted them in the first place despite their Stealth +6 and bonus action Hide. If they make their Fireball save they'll have 9/16 HP left.

It's fully possible the PCs in this scenario aren't dealing with only 2 Shadows. Maybe those are just the ones who rolled low on Stealth. 9 Shadows + 1 Zombie Beholder is only 5400 XP (Hard), out of a 21,000 adjusted XP daily budget. There could be a TON of other Shadows lurking, depending on how the DM's mind works.

Killing 1 Shadow with repeated Magic Missiles is a lot easier than killing 9 of them who are busy strafing you from the darkness.

[stoutstien]

IMO they're not fragile at all once you take resistances into account. Shadows are resistant to acid, cold, fire, lightning, thunder, and nonmagical BPS. Three hits with Scorching Ray will only do 3d6 (10) damage, not enough to kill one. Even if they fail their Fireball save, they'll take only 14 points of damage from the typical Fireball, surviving with 2 HP, and that's if you even spotted them in the first place despite their Stealth +6 and bonus action Hide.

It's fully possible the PCs in this scenario aren't dealing with only 2 Shadows. Maybe those are just the ones who rolled low on Stealth. 9 Shadows + 1 Zombie Beholder is only 5400 XP (Hard), out of a 21,000 adjusted XP daily budget. There could be a TON of other Shadows lurking, depending on how the DM's mind works.

Killing 1 Shadow with repeated Magic Missiles is a lot easier than killing 9 of them who are busy strafing you from the darkness.

thats what my inner player is thinking as well. get a big light effect spell going and get a solid grasp of what your facing before you start trying to blitz forward. the fact the shadows can squeeze into very small spaces makes this a huge red flag for a double back style ambush.

[Chronos]

Didn't you already have a thread on this? (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616772-Party-of-6-level-5-characters-vs-1-beholder-and-shadows)

[Drache64]

Didn't you already have a thread on this? (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616772-Party-of-6-level-5-characters-vs-1-beholder-and-shadows)

Truth be told I forgot that thread existed, but this is a little different because I know more information now and that previous thread was mainly focused on guessing what kind of beholder it was.

(I know more now because DM was too giddy to keep secrets)