OOTS #1210 - The Discussion Thread

[dancrilis]

"I'm fine with reducing a woman character to a plot device for a male character, because I assume I would be fine with the reverse in some hypothetical situation that is not the situation we are discussing" is not the defense you think it is.


There is media (which while obviously not a direct translation of the scenario laid out) that does this, for example Alien and Terminator spring to mind everyone except the main character(s) (Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor) exist to die to serve their stories - and both movies are great.

[Ruck]

There is media (which while obviously not a direct translation of the scenario laid out) that does this, for example Alien and Terminator spring to mind everyone except the main character(s) (Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor) exist to die to serve their stories - and both movies are great.

I don't think that accurately describes either of those franchises.

And again, dragging a bunch of unrelated stories into the discussion is merely a way of avoiding discussing your position on this story.

[Fyraltari]

Not so much unlearn it but instead learn that not every idea is a good idea and that listening to others criticism before acting can be helpful (and it is possible that he did that and discarded the points Roy made as he didn't consider them valid enough), him acting isn't the issue but if he had spoken to Roy again first then Roy might have highlighted the plan to knock out Xykon first and thereby ruin The Plan and so Redcloak would have fewer options and a possibly weaker hand on whatever it was he wanted (or not Roy doesn't have the best track record of listening to people either - although he is getting better).

But, he did talk to Roy about it before (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1200.html).

[ZiggyGuy]

I doubt that.

I don't. Isn't Redcloak killing Durkon the same way his god died? Killed during peace talks?
If his god is angry at being killed that way, I don't think he'll be ok with his high priest doing the same thing~

[And before the "he's evil, he won't care" answers, Evil can have standards. And the way he spoke to Jirix, I would say he knows how to play by the rules]

[Lethologica]

Even setting aside any unfortunate implications, the purported lesson Minrah's hypothetical death is supposed to teach Durkon is redundant. All the good character drama is already set up by Durkon going around his team to negotiate with Redcloak, failing (at least for now), almost dying, and harming his team's mission in the process. The only additional purpose Minrah's death would serve is making it easier to browbeat Durkon about how wrong his choice was, which is pointless, crude, and wasteful. Just what is that supposed to contribute to Durkon's character arc?


Unrelated: the hammer is named Totally Head Obliterating Righteous Smash Hammer or T.H.O.R.S. Hammer for short.
For maximum recursion, It's T.H.O.R.S. Hammer, short for T.H.O.R.S. Head-Obliterating Righteous Smash Hammer.

[Lexible]

Folks on the first page or two are discussing how implosion in the strip(s) does not quite tally up with respect to the SRD because it appears to cover multiple rounds of action, and appears to do damage even though Durkon made his save and/or Redcloak's spell fizzled.

However, wind walk does not operate as shown in the strip either: movement with wind walk is either at 10 feet per round (i.e. not what we see Minrah's entrace to be), or is at 600 feet per round with very poor manoeuvrability. Minrah is clearly taking the latter approach, but the transition from cloud form to physical form takes five rounds, which we do not see. But the clincher is that one cannot cast spells while in gaseous form per SRD.

Finally, Thor's might (i.e. Thor-branded righteous might) takes a standard action to cast, and Minrah is not casting it quickened, but is either attacking in the same round as she cast the spell, or is taking two rounds to cast and then attack (contradicting the operation of implosion per SRD).

In short, The Giant is rad for interpreting 3.5e spells in a fictionally narrative, while dispensing with the trappings of 3.5's rules.

[dancrilis]

You've acted as if my position were "It's sexist to kill a female character in a way that has an impact on a male character therefore it should never happen", when my position is "Killing a female character with her own arc solely to give motivation to a male character as opposed to it being the conclusion of her own narrative arc reduces her to a plot device in service to the male character's story, which is a problem because there is a whole history of women being considered as having value only in relation to men."
Ok in that case I just had you wrong.
I still disagree (to an extent*) a realistic story where someone is about to get their life together, get a better job, start their mortgage, raise their kids etc but who dies in an unexpected car crash to suit the story of the spouce, kids, mortgage advisor, boss etc can be fine if done well - and I don't see too much of a difference on that whether the character is a man or a woman.

*subject to me reading you correctly here.



Spearholder is a term from classical theater, it refers to a character who is only there to fill the scene a little (in tragedies they are often soldiers escorting the more important characters hence the name) and is lucky to have a line or two. In a broader sense it refers to the vast massof individuals in a story who aren't so much a character as a function : the fleeing civilian, the prison guard, the dead mom, etc.

Fair enough - I was close enough in meaning then so



I don't think that accurately describes either of those franchises.
Which bit do you disagree with? I am only seeing two elements it could be either I got the main characters wrong (which I can see a case for I suppose), or that the others didn't die to further the story of the mains (or both).



And again, dragging a bunch of unrelated stories into the discussion is merely a way of avoiding discussing your position on this story.
I think I have laid out my position on this story fairly clearly - do you have a specific question?


But, he did talk to Roy about it before (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1200.html).
They talked about one plan which Roy shot down for reasons (good or bad is up to you), rather then fighting for the idea or raising a different method Durkon effectively vetoed Roy's concerns and went on and did what he wanted - now to be clear Durkon has every right to do that and Roy can be very stubborn so he is half justified in avoiding the arguement, but I think he would have been better to push back at Roy and see how the discussion went rather then go behind his back.

[Fyraltari]

I don't. Isn't Redcloak killing Durkon the same way his god died? Killed during peace talks?
If his god is angry at being killed that way, I don't think he'll be ok with his high priest doing the same thing~

[And before the "he's evil, he won't care" answers, Evil can have standards. And the way he spoke to Jirix, I would say he knows how to play by the rules]

The dark One is vengeful, vengeance usually blinds people to their hypocrisy.

Or has Redcloak would put it "Screw you, suckers, it's OUR turn now!" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html)

[Marsala]

I don't. Isn't Redcloak killing Durkon the same way his god died? Killed during peace talks?
If his god is angry at being killed that way, I don't think he'll be ok with his high priest doing the same thing~

[And before the "he's evil, he won't care" answers, Evil can have standards. And the way he spoke to Jirix, I would say he knows how to play by the rules]

It's also possible that the Dark One and Redcloak see it as payback. Well, attempted payback.

[B. Dandelion]

I am glad Durkon survived, although sad that he still suffered horribly. I thought the comic might be an extended scene of him dying in agony but it wasn't quite that bad since he was saved in the end.

But I am very depressed that it reflects every bit as badly on Redcloak as I had thought the worst case scenario would. Everything about the comic points to Redcloak being an absolutely hopeless cause: Redcloak tries to kill Durkon and puts him through excruciating pain, Durkon calls him a murderer of goblins through gritted teeth, and Minrah smashes the negotiating table in the rescue. Durkon effectively got under Redcloak's skin, but that doesn't suggest he managed to successfully plant any seeds of doubt or hope in him that might sprout later. Nor did Durkon's clapback suggest he saw anything in Redcloak worth bothering with in the future. I'm not looking forward to a coming arc where Redcloak sheds all of his remaining sympathetic qualities on the slide to an inevitable karmic death, but this comic sure doesn't point to any outcome other than that one.

It might be less painful in the long run to dispense with all pretense of hope right away rather than drag out the idea that Redcloak might be salvageable only to have it go nowhere, but there's nothing that's going to make me like the actual spectacle of watching a character that we've had over a decade's worth of time invested in become a thoroughly detestable shell of his former self, just at the time when he finally gets to interact with any of the title characters after six full books of encountering them only peripherally. Nor am I really chomping at the bit to see the inevitable emergence of our last-minute Reasonable Goblin Substitute who will be everything Redcloak couldn't. I'll give it a few more comics to see if there's more to this than we've seen or the potential for some other development, but after that... :smallfrown:

[Magic Rob]

Interesting - thus begins the discussion on how Implosion works within the universe of The Order of the Stick.

Looks like it functions like the Pathfinder version of Implosion. Or at least, closer to it than the 3.5 version. Concentration, 10 damage per caster level, however the pathfinder version can only affect a creature once, then you have to switch targets. I imagine this one is probably lower damage (5 per caster level maybe?) but can continue to be used on the same target.

[Mr. Demiurge]

So do you think Minrah followed Durkon without his knowledge or was Durkon's escape plan? I tend to think they were working together- hence Durkon's unwillingness to go inside when RC invite him.

Unrelated: the hammer is named Totally Head Obliterating Righteous Smash Hammer or T.H.O.R.S. Hammer for short.

Strongly believe this was his escape plan all along if things went south. The alternative would suggest Durkon is a straight-up fool who makes no contingency plans, since it was always a distinct possibility that Redcloak would respond to the initial overture with violence.

[One Skunk Todd]

Apart from being knocked prone, has RC actually taken any damage? I don’t see any marks on him.

Also, what can he use to stop resurrection? Is that what’s drawing the implosion spell out?

[bunsen_h]

I do not know whether this has been mentioned anywhere, but there is a deep, painful irony on Redcloak's actions here.
Simply put,
if Durkon had actually died from Redcloak's little gambit here, he would have died the EXACT SAME WAY that the Dark One himself died: peacefully arriving to attempt negotations but viciously murdered in the middle of the peace talks because his opposite number never actually respected him. The only reason he didn't is because he (rightfully) planned for a possible betrayal. I am wondering if that will ever occur to either RD or his god...

Some comment on that would make for a good parting shot from Durkon, if he has the opportunity.


It only takes a round for Xykon to teleport over, and then it'd be game over.

And Minrah has now been very conspicuous. I expect Xykon to appear momentarily.


Darnit, I've been reading old bits, now I can't remember the sequence where he tells someone he's talking to that he had pushed all of his chips onto the table. Grr.

This: O-Chul (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html).


If she hadn't done the thing dramatically, it wouldn't have worked.

Because of something like this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html).

[Ruck]

I think I have laid out my position on this story fairly clearly - do you have a specific question?

Not a question, so much as a statement.

Whatever you might think about what you might hypothetically argue does and doesn't work in other stories that aren't The Order of the Stick: The fact remains, here, in the Order of the Stick discussion thread, you are arguing that the story would be better if the woman character with her own plot and story was killed in order to serve as a plot point and character growth moment for the man character.

[Fyraltari]

Ok in that case I just had you wrong.
I still disagree (to an extent*) a realistic story where someone is about to get their life together, get a better job, start their mortgage, raise their kids etc but who dies in an unexpected car crash to suit the story of the spouce, kids, mortgage advisor, boss etc can be fine if done well - and I don't see too much of a difference on that whether the character is a man or a woman.
The question is not wether it is done well. Everything can be written well, even the most horrible things. And as I said before the simple presence of the structural element of "female character dies, this is important to the story of male character" is not in itself enough to make the story sexist. The problems are A) this particular combination happens disproportionately and rarely in ways where the sacrifice's story has reached anywhere close to a satsfying conclusion, which is a bad trend and B) In this particular case: Minrah dying so that Roy could give Durkon a lecture about being a team player would definitely be sexist.




They talked about one plan which Roy shot down for reasons (good or bad is up to you), rather then fighting for the idea or raising a different method Durkon effectively vetoed Roy's concerns and went on and did what he wanted - now to be clear Durkon has every right to do that and Roy can be very stubborn so he is half justified in avoiding the arguement, but I think he would have been better to push back at Roy and see how the discussion went rather then go behind his back.

The method is irrelevant. You said that Durkon should have asked for Roy's opinion on contacting Redcloak and listen to what he had to say. He did both. Then he went ahead and did it anyway because he knew he wouldn't convince Roy and felt that he would be betraying Thor's trust if he'd obeyed Roy.

[dancrilis]

Apart from being knocked prone, has RC actually taken any damage? I don’t see any marks on him.

Also, what can he use to stop resurrection? Is that what’s drawing the implosion spell out?

If Minrah used the feat Knock Down then he presumedly took at least 10 damage.


Not a question, so much as a statement.

Whatever you might think about what you might hypothetically argue does and doesn't work in other stories that aren't The Order of the Stick: The fact remains, here, in the Order of the Stick discussion thread, you are arguing that the story would be better if the woman character with her own plot and story was killed in order to serve as a plot point and character growth moment for the man character.

Actually:

Although on consideration Minrah dying and Durkon work of recalling out with her body to raise it would suit me fine for preserving Redcloak as a threat and having Durkon perhaps learn about the burden of leadership and keeping Minrah around (don't know if that would suit you or if you would still think it bad).
Her story does not need to end and still meet what I said I kindof wanted to happen - in fact it help both her and Durkon's story (possibly)



The method is irrelevant. You said that Durkon should have asked for Roy's opinion on contacting Redcloak and listen to what he had to say. He did both. Then he went ahead and did it anyway because he knew he wouldn't convince Roy and felt that he would be betraying Thor's trust if he'd obeyed Roy.

But we the audience know that Roy was taking the Redcloak situation seriously (as when he talked to Julia about it), Durkon doesn't know that and doesn't know that Roy came up with a plan that might help that he was happy with.

[Psyren]

I don't. Isn't Redcloak killing Durkon the same way his god died? Killed during peace talks?
If his god is angry at being killed that way, I don't think he'll be ok with his high priest doing the same thing~

[And before the "he's evil, he won't care" answers, Evil can have standards. And the way he spoke to Jirix, I would say he knows how to play by the rules]

We haven't got much perspective from TDO, but "eye for an eye" doesn't seem like it would be too far outside his wheelhouse.


I am glad Durkon survived, although sad that he still suffered horribly. I thought the comic might be an extended scene of him dying in agony but it wasn't quite that bad since he was saved in the end.

But I am very depressed that it reflects every bit as badly on Redcloak as I had thought the worst case scenario would. Everything about the comic points to Redcloak being an absolutely hopeless cause: Redcloak tries to kill Durkon and puts him through excruciating pain, Durkon calls him a murderer of goblins through gritted teeth, and Minrah smashes the negotiating table in the rescue. Durkon effectively got under Redcloak's skin, but that doesn't suggest he managed to successfully plant any seeds of doubt or hope in him that might sprout later. Nor did Durkon's clapback suggest he saw anything in Redcloak worth bothering with in the future. I'm not looking forward to a coming arc where Redcloak sheds all of his remaining sympathetic qualities on the slide to an inevitable karmic death, but this comic sure doesn't point to any outcome other than that one.

It might be less painful in the long run to dispense with all pretense of hope right away rather than drag out the idea that Redcloak might be salvageable only to have it go nowhere, but there's nothing that's going to make me like the actual spectacle of watching a character that we've had over a decade's worth of time invested in become a thoroughly detestable shell of his former self, just at the time when he finally gets to interact with any of the title characters after six full books of encountering them only peripherally. Nor am I really chomping at the bit to see the inevitable emergence of our last-minute Reasonable Goblin Substitute who will be everything Redcloak couldn't. I'll give it a few more comics to see if there's more to this than we've seen or the potential for some other development, but after that... :smallfrown:

I understand your frustration as I was empathizing with Redcloak too. But it's not over yet. I don't think he'll survive any of this, but hell if Belkar of all people can realize what a jackass he's been (even if too late to save himself from karma), there's hope RC can do the same.

I still maintain that Minrah's quote about clerics changing their minds was foreshadowing.



Also, what can he use to stop resurrection? Is that what’s drawing the implosion spell out?

RAW Implosion is VERY unclear on what happens to the remains of the creature it kills or what state they're in. The Giant has evidently ruled that it doesn't leave any. Redcloak's statement ("implode into oblivion") supports this ruling.

[Rrmcklin]

Do you regard panel 11 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html) as bad, because her death obviously went on to give motivation to Ian and resulted in him moving to the desert to make her proud (per the rest of that strip).

By putting woman on the 'can't be killed to advance the story of another' pedestal it effectively removes a whole load of stories about the impact of woman in the lives of those around them, for instance heroic sacrifice becomes solely the remit of men in scenarios where the story seeks to examine the impact on the survivors rather then being about the deceased.

Even disregarding the unfortunate implications other people have brought up to you, do you not see why killing a character once, then having them come back and then making a big deal about them coming with the main characters, only to almost immediately die again is just awkward story-telling?

Rich has stated that Minrah has actual specific reasons for being with the Order, if "dying so Durkon can learn a lesson" is what he meant, it'' reduce my faith in him as a writer, I have to say.

[Lethologica]

It might be less painful in the long run to dispense with all pretense of hope right away rather than drag out the idea that Redcloak might be salvageable only to have it go nowhere, but there's nothing that's going to make me like the actual spectacle of watching a character that we've had over a decade's worth of time invested in become a thoroughly detestable shell of his former self, just at the time when he finally gets to interact with any of the title characters after six full books of encountering them only peripherally. Nor am I really chomping at the bit to see the inevitable emergence of our last-minute Reasonable Goblin Substitute who will be everything Redcloak couldn't. I'll give it a few more comics to see if there's more to this than we've seen or the potential for some other development, but after that... :smallfrown:
It might help to know that there's roughly zero chance of your predictions coming to fruition.

This behavior is a roughly straight-line continuation of Redcloak's character, which is the expected result of an initial confrontation. It in no way precludes Redcloak being part of the solution, whether or not that includes some form of personal redemption for him.

And the plain fact is that there are no substitutes for Redcloak. There's no one else who can participate in Thor's ritual. It's going to be Redcloak staring down the barrel of that choice. Count on it.

[One Skunk Todd]

I do not know whether this has been mentioned anywhere, but there is a deep, painful irony on Redcloak's actions here.
Simply put,
if Durkon had actually died from Redcloak's little gambit here, he would have died the EXACT SAME WAY that the Dark One himself died: peacefully arriving to attempt negotations but viciously murdered in the middle of the peace talks because his opposite number never actually respected him. The only reason he didn't is because he (rightfully) planned for a possible betrayal. I am wondering if that will ever occur to either RD or his god...

Following that to its logical conclusion:
If RC had killed Durkon then Durkon would have ascended into godhood of his own pantheon with his own quiddity. I’m guessing orange. :)

[Fyraltari]

I am glad Durkon survived, although sad that he still suffered horribly. I thought the comic might be an extended scene of him dying in agony but it wasn't quite that bad since he was saved in the end.

But I am very depressed that it reflects every bit as badly on Redcloak as I had thought the worst case scenario would. Everything about the comic points to Redcloak being an absolutely hopeless cause: Redcloak tries to kill Durkon and puts him through excruciating pain, Durkon calls him a murderer of goblins through gritted teeth, and Minrah smashes the negotiating table in the rescue. Durkon effectively got under Redcloak's skin, but that doesn't suggest he managed to successfully plant any seeds of doubt or hope in him that might sprout later. Nor did Durkon's clapback suggest he saw anything in Redcloak worth bothering with in the future. I'm not looking forward to a coming arc where Redcloak sheds all of his remaining sympathetic qualities on the slide to an inevitable karmic death, but this comic sure doesn't point to any outcome other than that one.

It might be less painful in the long run to dispense with all pretense of hope right away rather than drag out the idea that Redcloak might be salvageable only to have it go nowhere, but there's nothing that's going to make me like the actual spectacle of watching a character that we've had over a decade's worth of time invested in become a thoroughly detestable shell of his former self, just at the time when he finally gets to interact with any of the title characters after six full books of encountering them only peripherally. Nor am I really chomping at the bit to see the inevitable emergence of our last-minute Reasonable Goblin Substitute who will be everything Redcloak couldn't. I'll give it a few more comics to see if there's more to this than we've seen or the potential for some other development, but after that... :smallfrown:
Redcloak has been "a detestable shell of his former self" for years on end now, and the entirety of the free-to-read online comic. That's why we don't know his birth name.

The idea that Durkon, a complete stranger from what he considers an ennemy people and an ennemy religion would be able to fix him in a conversation was always a pipe dream. I am fairly confident that Redcloak will end up on the side of the angels before all is said and done, but for that to happen something must happen to him to make him want to change. Because, and I think that is one of the most important lessons of life, one I still haven't fully learned: no matter how hard you try, you cannot logic someone out of a situation they didn't logic themselves into.

[Quizatzhaderac]

He is literally all in. v(Darnit, I've been reading old bits, now I can't remember the sequence where he tells someone he's talking to that he had pushed all of his chips onto the table. Grr.544 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html) Also has Redcloak's only pun.

However, the thing is Thor's plan specifically requires Redcloak to willingly seal the rifts. Or I guess maybe Jirix will level to 17 or Durkon will level and convert, but I don't see this ending without Redcloak being at least grudgingly accepting of the peace.


I admit, I'd not even considered the possibility that Implosion would prevent resurrection. The spell description just says the target will "collapse in on itself, killing it", but it doesn't say to what degree.

The most boring explanation I could think of it "just enough to kill, which is like 95% volume for a typical humanoid", this would also explain why undead are immune, since they'd still be there, just not quite as big.

Of course, D&D likes it's critical existence failure so a singularity or a small rock *maybe the same weight as the ashes produced by disintegration?) seems just as reasonable an outcome

[The_Weirdo]

They're dead, though.

Maybe the gods could make a big show of reallocating their souls somewhere deeply unpleasant, then? That might assuage Redcloak, possibly even into redemption, if the cards are played right...

I mean, surely Celestia isn't exactly the kind of place where mass-murderers that slaughtered innocent villages go to spend their afterlives?


no matter how hard you try, you cannot logic someone out of a situation they didn't logic themselves into.

You cannot begin to fathom how that sentence depresses me. It's not wrong, just depressing.

[Rrmcklin]

It might help to know that there's roughly zero chance of your predictions coming to fruition.

This behavior is a roughly straight-line continuation of Redcloak's character, which is the expected result of an initial confrontation. It in no way precludes Redcloak being part of the solution, whether or not that includes some form of personal redemption for him.

And the plain fact is that there are no substitutes for Redcloak. There's no one else who can participate in Thor's ritual. It's going to be Redcloak staring down the barrel of that choice. Count on it.

I mean, I don't count on it, because I can very easily see this story not ending with Thor's plan and ritual. That's a possibility. In which case, Redcloak neither gets redeemed, nor is he a part of the solution. Which, really, I think has always been what his character is about.

[LadyEowyn]

Heroic sacrifice (and death in general) should be the conclusion of a character's own story, not a stepping stone to another's. It just has additionnal ugly implication when a female character gets killed to prod a male one.

EDIT: Also the "women in fridge" thing is much like the Bechdel Test, it happening in a story does not make the story sexist, but the trend is worrisome.
Thanks for this. The issue lies with the fact that women being killed off to motivate male characters being, firstly, so frequent (much more so that the reverse), and secondly, in a broader context where there are so many more male characters than female ones.

And this is a good opportunity to mention how happy I was that when (quite a while back), after someone the forum compared the number of lines by female characters to those by male characters and found a substantial disparity, Rich responded with, in essence “I hadn’t realized that, am disturbed by it, and will make an effort to correct to it”. And then made a definite point of doing so, with the addition of female secondary characters with substantial roles (Bandana, Andi, Minrah, etc).

It’s so, so common for authors/artists/creators to respond to criticism of that kind with defensiveness or offense, or brushing it off as “I didn’t mean to so it doesn’t matter”. An author taking it seriously and making changes in response to it shouldn’t be rare, but it is, so I really appreciate Rich for that.

[Fyraltari]

But we the audience know that Roy was taking the Redcloak situation seriously (as when he talked to Julia about it), Durkon doesn't know that and doesn't know that Roy came up with a plan that might help that he was happy with.
Accepting that interpretation for a bit, that'd be Roy's fault, not Durkon's. Moreover, Roy did explain his plan of talking to Redclaok after beating Team Evil in the tenth panel.

544 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html) Also has Redcloak's only pun.
Where?

Maybe the gods could make a big show of reallocating their souls somewhere deeply unpleasant, then? That might assuage Redcloak, possibly even into redemption, if the cards are played right...

I mean, surely Celestia isn't exactly the kind of place where mass-murderers that slaughtered innocent villages go to spend their afterlives?
I'm pretty sure that once a soul is allowed into a Plane thay're not leaving. I also doubt that'd be the gods' call, unless they went to their own place.

Also, Roy was almost denied entry into Celestia because he considered abandonning a comrade once. I doubt you'll find any child murderer in there.

[One Skunk Todd]

RAW Implosion is VERY unclear on what happens to the remains of the creature it kills or what state they're in. The Giant has evidently ruled that it doesn't leave any. Redcloak's statement ("implode into oblivion") supports this ruling.

Ah thanks, I see. I misread what RC was saying. I thought he was referring to some EXTRA effect on top of implosion that he was adding to the cast somehow.

[JSSheridan]

544 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html)
However, the thing is Thor's plan specifically requires Redcloak to willingly seal the rifts. Or I guess maybe Jirix will level to 17 or Durkon will level and convert, but I don't see this ending without Redcloak being at least grudgingly accepting of the peace.

Does it have to be freely given, or would compulsory magic still allow for it?

[Fyraltari]

You cannot begin to fathom how that sentence depresses me. It's not wrong, just depressing.
We're a bunch of flawed apes, that's for sure, but we do better everyday.

Thanks for this.
Don't mention it.

[The_Weirdo]

I'm pretty sure that once a soul is allowed into a Plane thay're not leaving. I also doubt that'd be the gods' call, unless they went to their own place.

Also, Roy was almost denied entry into Celestia because he considered abandonning a comrade once. I doubt you'll find any child murderer in there.

I mean, they likely kept their Paladin powers, if we consider that the Giant is on record as saying it was a decades-long campaign in which they never lost them? Unless, and I don't see it as likely, Redcloak's village was their first time slaughtering innocents?

[Fyraltari]

I mean, they likely kept their Paladin powers, if we consider that the Giant is on record as saying it was a decades-long campaign in which they never lost them? Unless, and I don't see it as likely, Redcloak's village was their first time slaughtering innocents?

I think the Paladin's fall mecanic is more of a rough indicator compared to the evaluation of one's life on the cloud-plane.

[GregTD]

So, like I said in the thread for the last page of the comic, I'm pretty sure Redcloak's plan has not been revealed. I'm of the opinion there are several red herrings going on in the story (for example, Odin's Prophecy about Durkon).

Yeah, we have seen Redclock's plan (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html). From his own mouth, at a point when he has no reason to lie

[The_Weirdo]

I think the Paladin's fall mecanic is more of a rough indicator compared to the evaluation of one's life on the cloud-plane.

From your lipsfingers to (a deity)the Giant's earseyes.

[GregTD]

I mean, they likely kept their Paladin powers, if we consider that the Giant is on record as saying it was a decades-long campaign in which they never lost them? Unless, and I don't see it as likely, Redcloak's village was their first time slaughtering innocents?

The Giant is on record as having said "we didn't get to see (in that comic) how many of them discovered the next day that they were no longer Paladins."

So your assumption seems, at best, unsupported by the available evidence

[Rogar Demonblud]

I mean, they likely kept their Paladin powers, if we consider that the Giant is on record as saying it was a decades-long campaign in which they never lost them? Unless, and I don't see it as likely, Redcloak's village was their first time slaughtering innocents?

Could be. We don't know they ever fought in another village before. We don't know if they didn't. Simplest explanation is that they probably usually intercepted raiding parties or hit warcamps instead of happening to find the Bearer in a village.

[Silverionmox]

I skipped the drama by the expedient method of not reading the last comic thread, but now I'm curious: what kind of justification was given to Durkon starting to be distorted by the implosion in the last panel of the last comic?
Grey Wolf

Read the spell description closely: it says you need to concentrate an entire round for the spell to take effect. The effect is instantaneous, but the concentration is not. That also explains why the spell has a duration of four rounds: from round 1 to 2 is one kill attempt, round 2 to 3 is one kill attempt, and round 3 to 4 is one kill attempt for the traditional well-rounded three in stories, which Elan certainly would appreciate.

So Minrah obviously took advantage of the built-in opportunity to disrupt Redcloak's concentration during her turn to prevent the implosion from taking effect on his turn.

[The_Weirdo]

Could be. We don't know they ever fought in another village before. We don't know if they didn't. Simplest explanation is that they probably usually intercepted raiding parties or hit warcamps instead of happening to find the Bearer in a village.


The Giant is on record as having said "we didn't get to see (in that comic) how many of them discovered the next day that they were no longer Paladins."

So your assumption seems, at best, unsupported by the available evidence

Well, while Rogar's explanation seems to be slightly convoluted in my view, it does have the undeniable merit of explaining the decades-long campaign part while accounting for a fall after the first village raided. So it is quite likely, yes.

And Greg, well, yes, but - without Rogar's explanation - I could not fathom how the two facts - the thing being decades-long and them falling after hitting one village - would add up, since they'd stop slaughtering civilians after they fell. That said, Rogar's explanation does tie it all up quite decently.

[Fyraltari]

From your lipsfingers to (a deity)the Giant's earseyes.
I do not understand.

EDIT:

Well, while Rogar's explanation seems to be slightly convoluted in my view, it does have the undeniable merit of explaining the decades-long campaign part while accounting for a fall after the first village raided. So it is quite likely, yes.

And Greg, well, yes, but - without Rogar's explanation - I could not fathom how the two facts - the thing being decades-long and them falling after hitting one village - would add up, since they'd stop slaughtering civilians after they fell. That said, Rogar's explanation does tie it all up quite decently.

It's also possible that the mounting frustration of a decade-long campaign without result drove them to... harsher methods.

We know that having to start over from scratch account for a lot of Gin-Jun's unhinged mental state.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Where?Panel #8 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html). The word "Ken" has two unrelated meanings.

One is knowledge (O'chul's sense), "outside your ken" = "You don't know what you're doing". Rather archaic, so one would rarely hear it outside that expression.

The other is short for the proper name "Kennith" which is the name of a doll that is the boyfriend to the super popular Barbie, who is known to have a Malibu dream house.


Does it have to be freely given, or would compulsory magic still allow for it?The Giant's comment didn't say that Redcloak needs to be casting it of his free will, free on mind altering effects, but I will be very shocked and disappointed if this end with Redcloak being dominated and hauled around every corner to the world while still getting spells from the Dark One.

[The_Weirdo]

I do not understand.

EDIT:


It's also possible that the mounting frustration of a decade-long campaign without result drove them to... harsher methods.

We know that having to start over from scratch account for a lot of Gin-Jun's unhinged mental state.

It was a play on the expression "From your lips to God's ear". Sorry, this one was totally my fault that I wasn't clearer. :smalltongue:

And eh, possible, or maybe a mix of both.

[Lethologica]

I mean, I don't count on it, because I can very easily see this story not ending with Thor's plan and ritual. That's a possibility. In which case, Redcloak neither gets redeemed, nor is he a part of the solution. Which, really, I think has always been what his character is about.
I can see the story not ending with that ritual, of course. There's so many other factors in play. However, I can't see this story ending without Redcloak staring down that choice. That is to say, just because other factors will complicate the outcome doesn't mean this factor can or will go ignored.

As for what his character has always been about, I'm going to return to something I said in the last thread:


I am not claiming that every action of Redcloak's reflects on all goblinkind or that all goblins are like Redcloak. Only that the resolution of Redcloak's character arc is deeply bound up with the thematic portrayal and practical fate of goblinkind as well as Redcloak's personal demons. That is to say, one way or another, Redcloak will be instrumental to realizing whatever goblinoid endgame Rich has in mind, and Redcloak's character arc will be a primary vehicle for grappling with the nature of that endgame.

For example: what we are witnessing here is not just Redcloak and Durkon jawing about a deal among gods and mortals. We're laying out an ideological dispute about goblin equality and the path to it - whether to tactically accept social injustice and work by economic means to normalize an environment where more just discourse can thrive, or to insist on political equality from the Powers That Be because racial uplift is doomed in the face of societal oppression. This debate practically could have been written by Booker T. Washington and W.E.B. DuBois.

And what Redcloak does from here, what happens to him and his voice, is deeply tied to what happens to the DuBois perspective on goblin equality in this story. He can be redeemed or further villainized without affecting much; the key question is whether he is legitimized or delegitimized. His actions have been wrong, undoubtedly, and his personal demons have gotten the better of him at many points in the story. But is his perspective right? How Redcloak's character arc continues will play an important role in answering that question.
I don't think it's possible at this point to detach the issue of goblin equality from the issue of Redcloak's character arc. This thread has talked about how wasteful it would be to kill off Minrah here. I think it would be an order of magnitude more wasteful to somehow excise Redcloak's character arc from the goblinoid solution. However twisted he is, Redcloak is also the only speaker for a central and legitimate viewpoint about goblinoid equality. While I don't expect it to be validated wholesale, it must be addressed, it cannot be outright rejected, and Redcloak is the best vehicle for that.

[Dausuul]

Read the spell description closely: it says you need to concentrate an entire round for the spell to take effect. The effect is instantaneous, but the concentration is not.
Ha! Very nice catch. That answers all kinds of questions about the timing and what is actually going on.

[Fyraltari]

Panel #8 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html). The word "Ken" has two unrelated meanings.

One is knowledge (O'chul's sense), "outside your ken" = "You don't know what you're doing". Rather archaic, so one would rarely hear it outside that expression.

The other is short for the proper name "Kennith" which is the name of a doll that is the boyfriend to the super popular Barbie, who is known to have a Malibu dream house.
Aaaaah! So that's what that means!


The Giant's comment didn't say that Redcloak needs to be casting it of his free will, free on mind altering effects, but I will be very shocked and disappointed if this end with Redcloak being dominated and hauled around every corner to the world while still getting spells from the Dark One.
Seconded.

It was a play on the expression "From your lips to God's ear". Sorry, this one was totally my fault that I wasn't clearer. :smalltongue:

I don't know what that means either.

[dude123nice]

The implosion spell was obviously houseruled to be used multiple times on the same person. We see the sound effect for the first attempt, in the 2nd panel, and then a gesture from RC and another sound effect in the 5th. The Giant has also stated that he will deviate from the rules whenever he feels like doing it.

[understatement]

I am glad Durkon survived, although sad that he still suffered horribly. I thought the comic might be an extended scene of him dying in agony but it wasn't quite that bad since he was saved in the end.

But I am very depressed that it reflects every bit as badly on Redcloak as I had thought the worst case scenario would. Everything about the comic points to Redcloak being an absolutely hopeless cause: Redcloak tries to kill Durkon and puts him through excruciating pain, Durkon calls him a murderer of goblins through gritted teeth, and Minrah smashes the negotiating table in the rescue. Durkon effectively got under Redcloak's skin, but that doesn't suggest he managed to successfully plant any seeds of doubt or hope in him that might sprout later. Nor did Durkon's clapback suggest he saw anything in Redcloak worth bothering with in the future. I'm not looking forward to a coming arc where Redcloak sheds all of his remaining sympathetic qualities on the slide to an inevitable karmic death, but this comic sure doesn't point to any outcome other than that one.

I think Durkon will try again, regardless of personal feelings, because (as far as he knows) there are no other options. Above all, Durkon wants to save the world and the people on it (Kudzu, Sigdi, even Hilgya) that mean so much to him. He's not going to like it, but he's not going to give up no matter how crazy Redcloak becomes, because the alternative is that the world gets destroyed and the cycle continues.


It might be less painful in the long run to dispense with all pretense of hope right away rather than drag out the idea that Redcloak might be salvageable only to have it go nowhere, but there's nothing that's going to make me like the actual spectacle of watching a character that we've had over a decade's worth of time invested in become a thoroughly detestable shell of his former self, just at the time when he finally gets to interact with any of the title characters after six full books of encountering them only peripherally. Nor am I really chomping at the bit to see the inevitable emergence of our last-minute Reasonable Goblin Substitute who will be everything Redcloak couldn't. I'll give it a few more comics to see if there's more to this than we've seen or the potential for some other development, but after that... :smallfrown:

Well, Redcloak will betray Xykon at some point, and I suspect the Order will try to take advantage of it beforehand. It's really early in the book (only 20 comics in) and just as so much changed within these 20, a lot more could happen in the next 200.

Maybe a slightly uplifting commentary from UD:




There are no easy solutions and there’s no rulebook he can consult. In some ways, it is more of a challenge to his newfound resolve than any combat encounter could be. If he falls into his old patterns and lets Hilgya take the lead, then his son will likely be raised as a chaotic Loki-worshipper. But attempting to seize total control will also backfire, as her equal clerical power means she can easily disappear with Kudzu. He must make a true peace with her, such that she’s willing to share responsibility for their child’s wellbeing—just as he now must find a way to make peace with Redcloak for the sake of the entire world.

[The_Weirdo]

I don't know what that means either.

It means "I hope your hypothesis turns out to be true".

In Portuguese it is "Deus te ouça", literally "May God hear you".

Is there such an expression in French?

[woweedd]

BADASS! Durkon sending burns, and Minrah sending..Wel, JEsus.

[Peelee]

Maybe the gods could make a big show of reallocating their souls somewhere deeply unpleasant, then?

I don't think the comic is about what you want it to be about.

[dancrilis]

I don't know what that means either.

They are saying they hope you are right (I don't think you are based on word of Giant but finding the references is something I will/might do later).

[Fyraltari]

It means "I hope your hypothesis turns out to be true".

In Portuguese it is "Deus te ouça", literally "May God hear you".

Is there such an expression in French?

None come to mind. Closest would be "Puisses-tu/Puissiez-vous avoir raison." = "May you be right."

[The_Weirdo]

I don't think the comic is about what you want it to be about.

I mean, justice and equality, no? :smallbiggrin:


None come to mind. Closest would be "Puisses-tu/Puissiez-vous avoir raison." = "May you be right."

Hmm. Interesting that there is no French expression like that, yet there are expressions in English and Portuguese. Not sure about Spanish...

[Oxenstierna]

For the duration of Thor's might, Minrah becomes Maxrah.

[Peelee]

I mean, justice and equality, no? :smallbiggrin:

No, that's what the comic is about. The vibe I generally get from you is less "justice and equality" and more "vengeance and retribution".

[The_Weirdo]

For the duration of Thor's might, Minrah becomes Maxrah.

...okay, that is either the best horrible pun I've ever seen or the worst great pun I've ever seen. Kudos. :smallbiggrin:


No, that's what the comic is about. The vibe I generally get from you is less "justice and equality" and more "vengeance and retribution".

Potato, slightly spicier potato. :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

Potato, slightly spicier potato. :smallbiggrin:

Or potato, rock-that-looks-like-a-potato.

[The_Weirdo]

Or potato, rock-that-looks-like-a-potato.

I mean, both can be used to throw through a glass window and shout "Revolution!", no?

[Jasdoif]

No, that's what the comic is about. The vibe I generally get from you is less "justice and equality" and more "vengeance and retribution".Potato, slightly spicier potato. :smallbiggrin:Why would you disparage the vibrant shi****o pepper that way?

[Peelee]

I mean, both can be used to throw through a glass window and shout "Revolution!", no?

Depends. Would you like to argue that if things are similar in one and only one very specific way, then they are interchangeable? Because I don't think your arguments will go terribly well after that, if you do wish to.
ETA:
Why would you disparage the vibrant shi****o pepper that way?


About one out of every eight peppers is spicy
Huh... I've never thought about playing Russian Roulette with food before.

[The_Weirdo]

Depends. Would you like to argue that if things are similar in one and only one very specific way, then they are interchangeable? Because I don't think your arguments will go terribly well after that, if you do wish to.

Nah, I like my rocks uneaten. :smallbiggrin:


Why would you disparage the vibrant shi****o pepper that way?

So you're a foodie, too? Interesting!

[Ruck]

No, that's what the comic is about. The vibe I generally get from you is less "justice and equality" and more "vengeance and retribution".

I think "vicarious" is a key word here, too.


Huh... I've never thought about playing Russian Roulette with food before.

Obviously you don't watch Tacoma FD, or you would've learned about Meatball Roulette (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeoiLn5joVE) by now.

[Schroeswald]

Depends. Would you like to argue that if things are similar in one and only one very specific way, then they are interchangeable? Because I don't think your arguments will go terribly well after that, if you do wish to.


A book and a book shaped piece of wood both mildly hurt when being whacked in the head with, that means they are basically interchangeable.

[The_Weirdo]

I think "vicarious" is a key word here, too.

Well, a goodly amount of literature is vicarious in some way: people identify with the characters and so on.

[Peelee]

Obviously you don't watch Tacoma FD, or you would've learned about Meatball Roulette (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeoiLn5joVE) by now.

I have not, and while that clip was informative, it wasn't terribly useful in convincing me to watch more of it, I'm afraid.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Well that turned out well. Good on Minrah!

[The_Weirdo]

I have not, and while that clip was informative, it wasn't terribly useful in convincing me to watch more of it, I'm afraid.

That clip is like a rock; you likely don't want to eat either. :smallbiggrin:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Oh will you look at that, Redcloak was indeed attacking Durkon, who could have guessed that?
Literally anyone and everyone! Or at least they should have.

I skipped the drama by the expedient method of not reading the last comic thread, but now I'm curious: what kind of justification was given to Durkon starting to be distorted by the implosion in the last panel of the last comic?

Grey Wolf
Read the spell description closely: it says you need to concentrate an entire round for the spell to take effect. The effect is instantaneous, but the concentration is not. That also explains why the spell has a duration of four rounds: from round 1 to 2 is one kill attempt, round 2 to 3 is one kill attempt, and round 3 to 4 is one kill attempt for the traditional well-rounded three in stories, which Elan certainly would appreciate.

So Minrah obviously took advantage of the built-in opportunity to disrupt Redcloak's concentration during her turn to prevent the implosion from taking effect on his turn.

I have no idea why this is addressed to me. It certainly doesn't answer the question quoted.

GW

[Jasdoif]

Why would you disparage the vibrant shi****o pepper that way?
About one out of every eight peppers is spicyHuh... I've never thought about playing Russian Roulette with food before.Blasé attitudes about vengeance and retribution, too, will eventually overwhelm your senses and likely make you regret your unwillingness to take them seriously when you still had the chance; but peppers are much more forgiving.



So you're a foodie, too?I like food and occasionally buy interesting stuff at discount stores; does that count?

[Dausuul]

Everything about the comic points to Redcloak being an absolutely hopeless cause: Redcloak tries to kill Durkon and puts him through excruciating pain, Durkon calls him a murderer of goblins through gritted teeth, and Minrah smashes the negotiating table in the rescue.
To review Redcloak's greatest hits as a member of Team Evil:


He knowingly sent thousands of hobgoblins to their deaths for no good reason. When he later had a revelation that this was bad, it wasn't because they were sentient beings, but because they were goblinoids.
His "Gobbotopia" is a tyrannical state built on slave labor.
He tortured O-Chul even after he was convinced the paladin had no useful information, just because it was a convenient way to manipulate Xykon.
When he destroyed the Resistance, he did not simply kill them, he reveled in wanton violence (the "decoration" of their fortress).
He threw Tsukiko to the chlorine elemental because he thought it was funny.
When he later killed Tsukiko, he inflicted the most cruel death he could have done, watching her die at the hands of her own beloved undead.

One of the recurring themes of OotS is "Evil is evil no matter how you dress it up." Tarquin was charismatic, dashing, charming Evil. Malack was civilized, courteous, intellectual Evil. But they were both still very much Evil, and Rich made a point of showing us what that meant in the end.

Now he's doing the same thing with Redcloak. RC hasn't changed a bit; he is just doing to a protagonist what he has already done to countless others.

[The_Weirdo]

Blasé attitudes about vengeance and retribution, too, will eventually overwhelm your senses and likely make you regret your unwillingness to take them seriously when you still had the chance; but peppers are much more forgiving.


I like food and occasionally buy interesting stuff at discount stores; does that count?

That depends on what you buy, I guess? o_O

That said, you know what they say: vengeance is a dish best-served in an all-you-can-eat buffet. :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

I like food and occasionally buy interesting stuff at discount stores; does that count?

Yeah, I also get confused at that term. Like, who doesn't enjoy food? It's like those old 80's dating video stereotyopes. "I like to have fun." Well hot dang, I'm sure the ladies were about to talk to one of the many people who don't like to have fun, but you really made yourself stand out there.

[dude123nice]

To review Redcloak's greatest hits as a member of Team Evil:


He knowingly sent thousands of hobgoblins to their deaths for no good reason. When he later had a revelation that this was bad, it wasn't because they were sentient beings, but because they were goblinoids.
His "Gobbotopia" is a tyrannical state built on slave labor.
He tortured O-Chul even after he was convinced the paladin had no useful information, just because it was a convenient way to manipulate Xykon.
When he destroyed the Resistance, he did not simply kill them, he reveled in wanton violence (the "decoration" of their fortress).
He threw Tsukiko to the chlorine elemental because he thought it was funny.
When he later killed Tsukiko, he inflicted the most cruel death he could have done, watching her die at the hands of her own beloved undead.

One of the recurring themes of OotS is "Evil is evil no matter how you dress it up." Tarquin was charismatic, dashing, charming Evil. Malack was civilized, courteous, intellectual Evil. But they were both still very much Evil, and Rich made a point of showing us what that meant in the end.

Now he's doing the same thing with Redcloak. RC hasn't changed a bit; he is just doing to a protagonist what he has already done to countless others.

Shhhhh, his race has suffered injustices in the past, so he is obviously a messiah who can do no wrong.

[The_Weirdo]

Shhhhh, his race has suffered injustices in the past, so he is obviously a messiah who can do no wrong.

Let me put it this way: Redcloak may be extremely Evil and have (at least some) methods that are abhorrent, but he's also extremely necessary and the world deserves him.


Yeah, I also get confused at that term. Like, who doesn't enjoy food? It's like those old 80's dating video stereotyopes. "I like to have fun." Well hot dang, I'm sure the ladies were about to talk to one of the many people who don't like to have fun, but you really made yourself stand out there.

I mean, having a liking for exotic food, I guess?

Such as Spicy Taters a la Retributivia. :smalltongue:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah, I also get confused at that term. Like, who doesn't enjoy food?

I've met people who find food to be a chore - they were the core of the business plan for RL soylent "substenance in a tube".

GW

[One Skunk Todd]

For the duration of Thor's might, Minrah becomes Maxrah.

There’s a dwarf and Headroom joke in there somewhere, I just know it! :)

[Corian]

None come to mind. Closest would be "Puisses-tu/Puissiez-vous avoir raison." = "May you be right."

Hmm. Interesting that there is no French expression like that, yet there are expressions in English and Portuguese. Not sure about Spanish...

If you read classic French novels, the stock expression was "Dieu vous entende!" which is exactly "May God hear you". But it has disappeared from usage, and nothing really came to replace it. What I do say often is "Je te/nous le souhaite", which translates as: I wish so on your/our behalf.

[The_Weirdo]

If you read classic French novels, the stock expression was "Dieu vous entende!" But it has disappeared from usage, and nothing really came to replace it. What I do say often is "Je te/nous le souhaite", which translates as: I wish so on your/our behalf.

Ahh, interesting! So it was an expression once, but fell in disuse!

[Peelee]

I've met people who find food to be a chore - they were the core of the business plan for RL soylent "substenance in a tube".

GW

The food itself, or the cooking or cleanup surrounding the food?

[Corian]

The food itself, or the cooking or cleanup surrounding the food?

I suspect both; but I have met people who take almost no pleasure in food itself. Blows my mind. (Not even anosmic as far as I know...)

[The_Weirdo]

I suspect both; but I have met people who take almost no pleasure in food itself. Blows my mind. (Not even anosmic as far as I know...)

I mean, do they take pleasure from anything else at all??? :smalleek:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The food itself, or the cooking or cleanup surrounding the food?

The food itself as well as the time spent on it. IIRC, they were fine with nice food on special occasions, but in their everyday lives, they'd rather not spend the time at all. There were cultural and religious reasons behind it, I think, but a) probably against board rules; 2) don't want to speak for them; and iii) I don't want to give the idea I'm generalising for people sharing their background anyway.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

If you read classic French novels, the stock expression was "Dieu vous entende!" which is exactly "May God hear you". But it has disappeared from usage, and nothing really came to replace it. What I do say often is "Je te/nous le souhaite", which translates as: I wish so on your/our behalf.


Ahh, interesting! So it was an expression once, but fell in disuse!

Heh, not really. It's less "I hope you turn out to be right" and more "I hope that what you are wishing for comes true".

[dude123nice]

Let me put it this way: Redcloak may be extremely Evil and have (at least some) methods that are abhorrent, but he's also extremely necessary and the world deserves him.


The world needs him like I need an empty can soda. Which I throw right next to the recycle bin!

[The_Weirdo]

The world needs him like I need an empty can soda. Which I throw right next to the recycle bin!

I said he's necessary, not that the world needs him.

He's necessary because goblins are a persecuted minority.

And the world deserves him because, let's be honest, the world created him.

Evil or not, he's an elemental of chickens coming home to roost. Everyone sooner or later sits down to a banquet of consequences, and Redcloak is the main course of a lot of people and powers.

[jukehero461]

Aaaaand coming from downtown, by air-mail, Minrah with a last-second save and neatly challenging Belkar's feat with Haley for 'last-second saving of a protagonist!'

And WHAM! Too bad she ain't a paladin because that was textbook SMITE technique!

Now let's see if Redcloak makes his Concentration roll and if Durkon is gonna fall back or get sent to the big penalty box in the sky!

[Dausuul]

Let me put it this way: Redcloak may be extremely Evil and have (at least some) methods that are abhorrent, but he's also extremely necessary and the world deserves him.
The world is made up of individual people. And a whole lot of individual people have suffered hideously at Redcloak's hands and did not remotely deserve it.

"Good Deeds Gone Unpunished" has a quote that I think sums up this scene and perhaps the entire comic: "There are only ever two sides. There is the side that wants a war, and the side that does not."

It's always been clear which side Redcloak is on.

[Peelee]

I mean, do they take pleasure from anything else at all??? :smalleek:
Fun.

The food itself as well as the time spent on it. IIRC, they were fine with nice food on special occasions, but in their everyday lives, they'd rather not spend the time at all. There were cultural and religious reasons behind it, I think, but a) probably against board rules; 2) don't want to speak for them; and iii) I don't want to give the idea I'm generalising for people sharing their background anyway.

Grey Wolf
Ah, I getcha.

Heh, not really. It's less "I hope you turn out to be right" and more "I hope that what you are wishing for comes true".
I'm more than a little amused that over here, that phrase is more of a warning.:smallwink:

[The_Weirdo]

Now let's see if Redcloak makes his Concentration roll and if Durkon is gonna fall back or get sent to the big penalty box in the sky!

He didn't. Fizzled in the last panel. :smallsmile:


The world is made up of individual people. And a whole lot of individual people have suffered hideously at Redcloak's hands and did not remotely deserve it.

"Good Deeds Gone Unpunished" has a quote that I think sums up this scene and perhaps the entire comic: "There are only ever two sides. There is the side that wants a war, and the side that does not."

It's always been clear which side Redcloak is on.

Sure. And a whole lot of people have suffered hideously at the Sapphire Guard's hands and did not remotely deserve it. And at the hands of the gods. And so on.

That needed fixing, too, not just Redcloak's actions.

[hroþila]

Heh, not really. It's less "I hope you turn out to be right" and more "I hope that what you are wishing for comes true".
That's also how the Spanish equivalent "Que Dios te oiga" works. Sure, both senses overlap to an extent, but still.

[Yirggzmb]

Now he's doing the same thing with Redcloak. RC hasn't changed a bit; he is just doing to a protagonist what he has already done to countless others.

To be honest, I kinda see this initial violent rejection as a way of showing the viewer our starting point for this book. That, even if a reader was brand new and using this book as a starting point, they have as much information as they need to at least mostly understand what the stakes are and what the major players will be like. They'll still be missing out on a lot of nuance, but they'll have the gist.

I'm not saying I think Recloak is definitely going to be redeemed. Definitely not in the karmic sense anyway. But I could easily imagine gritted teeth cooperation with the heroes. Or some twist that means Thor's plan won't work out the way he wanted it to, but otherwise still leaves Redcloak as an essential player, horrible person he may be.

Regardless of how it works out, Redcloak definitely will have some important role in the conclusion of the story. I've seen a lot of people suggest that maybe we'll have Jirix or someone else as the solution here, but I just can't see putting in all this time and effort on Redcloak's arc only to go "whoops, never mind!" at the last minute.

[Fyraltari]

The world needs him like I need an empty can soda. Which I throw right next to the recycle bin!
I am reminded of that show that managed to turn "character throws empty can in the bin" into a satifying concluison to its four-season long story (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNveF_z9lTw&t=985).


I'm more than a little amused that over here, that phrase is more of a warning.:smallwink:
What in a "don't tempt fate" kind of way?

[Aka-chan]

:durkon: Na as many as ye.

Ouch. I hope Redcloak has Energy Immunity: Fire active to deal with that burn.

[Ruck]

Heh, not really. It's less "I hope you turn out to be right" and more "I hope that what you are wishing for comes true".

So more like the (alleged) Chinese proverb that translates roughly to "May you live in interesting times."

[dude123nice]

I said he's necessary, not that the world needs him.

necessary = is needed

That's kind of the actual definition of the word.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

To be honest, I kinda see this initial violent rejection as a way of showing the viewer our starting point for this book. That, even if a reader was brand new and using this book as a starting point, they have as much information as they need to at least mostly understand what the stakes are and what the major players will be like. They'll still be missing out on a lot of nuance, but they'll have the gist.

We also have to keep in mind that RC wasn't the antagonist of the previous book. Or the one before. Reminding the less-obsessive reader of who the Hel is this guy at the start of a new book is common, and good, practice in storytelling.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

What in a "don't tempt fate" kind of way?

More or less. The exact phrase is "be careful what you wish for, you just might get it."

[understatement]

necessary = is needed

That's kind of the actual definition of the word.

Think The_Weirdo is referring to the fact that the rifts can only be sealed up with purple quiddity of enough potency, and as of right now Redcloak is the only person alive possessing this ability.

[The_Weirdo]

Think The_Weirdo is referring to the fact that the rifts can only be sealed up with purple quiddity of enough potency, and as of right now Redcloak is the only person alive possessing this ability.

Not quite.

I meant that his actions are, at the end of the day, bringing a very necessary change in the status quo in that the goblins deserve equality.

He's not Voldemort, who is completely unnecessary for the Wizarding World; Redcloak's stated point of view - that goblins deserve equality, to include in the eyes of the gods - is one that needs to be addressed and, if need be, enforced by him and the other goblinoids.

He's not necessary for the world because the "world at large" was benefitting, majorly, from a horrid injustice. He is, however, necessary for the situation to go from unfair - as in, goblins are downtrodden - to fair - as in, goblins are equal.

[Jasdoif]

More or less. The exact phrase is "be careful what you wish for, you just might get it."For example. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPQvVBaOx2E) (Bonus points for using the phrase and almost immediately demonstrating the connotations!)

[Tvtyrant]

I suspect both; but I have met people who take almost no pleasure in food itself. Blows my mind. (Not even anosmic as far as I know...)

I had a friend tell me Panda Express was as good as Happy Panda. Happy Panda was a consistently 4 star reviewed sit down restaurant (kind of dropped lately) and panda express is a greasy fast food chain. He also thought Dominos was as good as Nona Emilias (same relationship) so I just don't think he tastes food.

[+5 Vorpal Bunny]

Did Durkon take Fire domain? Because Redcloak just got burned.

[Fyraltari]

So more like the (alleged) Chinese proverb that translates roughly to "May you live in interesting times."
No, not at all. It's completely unironic. For example "My dad's gone to the hospital, I hope it's nothing serious. - Dieu vous entende."

Think The_Weirdo is referring to the fact that the rifts can only be sealed up with purple quiddity of enough potency, and as of right now Redcloak is the only person alive possessing this ability.
No see that would be reasonnable, therefore it can't be his point.

[Jasdoif]

I had a friend tell me Panda Express was as good as Happy Panda. Happy Panda was a consistently 4 star reviewed sit down restaurant (kind of dropped lately) and panda express is a greasy fast food chain.I could easily (http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1100/fv01077.htm) believe that Panda Express could have better tasting food than a sit down restaurant.

[Dausuul]

Sure. And a whole lot of people have suffered hideously at the Sapphire Guard's hands and did not remotely deserve it. And at the hands of the gods. And so on.

That needed fixing, too, not just Redcloak's actions.
Needed? You have the tense wrong. It still needs fixing.

Redcloak hasn't fixed a damn thing. All he has done so far is create one more tyrannical state built on the backs of brutalized slaves. Durkon just offered Redcloak the chance to actually fix something: Let the slaves go, keep the land and the resources and build a peaceful goblin society. Redcloak threw the offer back in his teeth.

The best one can say is that Redcloak's actions were necessary to create the opportunity for such a society, but even that doesn't really hold up. Thor would have sent an ambassador to ask for the Dark One's help regardless. The Dark One could have imposed any number of conditions on that help.

Redcloak could have been the leader the goblins needed to redress the injustices done to them. Maybe if Right-Eye had lived, he would have been. But he chose otherwise.

[Tvtyrant]

I could easily (http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1100/fv01077.htm) believe that Panda Express could have better tasting food than a sit down restaurant.

In this case it is not.

[The_Weirdo]

Needed? You have the tense wrong. It still needs fixing.

Redcloak hasn't fixed a damn thing. All he has done so far is create one more tyrannical state built on the backs of brutalized slaves. Durkon just offered Redcloak the chance to actually fix something: Let the slaves go, keep the land and the resources and build a peaceful goblin society. Redcloak threw the offer back in his teeth.

The best one can say is that Redcloak's actions were necessary to create the opportunity for such a society, but even that doesn't really hold up. Thor would have sent an ambassador to ask for the Dark One's help regardless. The Dark One could have imposed any number of conditions on that help.

Redcloak could have been the leader the goblins needed to redress the injustices done to them. Maybe if Right-Eye had lived, he would have been. But he chose otherwise.

I mean, TDO learned what happens when you go parlay with your enemies...

[bunsen_h]

I am fairly confident that Redcloak will end up on the side of the angels before all is said and done, but for that to happen something must happen to him to make him want to change.

If it comes down to it, I can imagine the situation involving him down to the last spell he's been holding in reserve, something 9th-level, and having to choose between using it for its original purpose or using its magical potential for the ritual to lock up the Snarl.


The Giant is on record as having said "we didn't get to see (in that comic) how many of them discovered the next day that they were no longer Paladins."

Though they wouldn't get the splashy effects that we saw for Miko, as the Giant has explained, it seems to me that the clue would drop when their magically-blue gear lost its colour.


Potato, slightly spicier potato. :smallbiggrin:

Potatoes and peppers both being nightshades... I wonder if anyone has tried getting the genes for capsaicin into potato plants?


I could easily (http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1100/fv01077.htm) believe that Panda Express could have better tasting food than a sit down restaurant.

Anything's possible. (http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff300/fv00217.htm)

[The_Weirdo]

Potatoes and peppers both being nightshades... I wonder if anyone has tried getting the genes for capsaicin into potato plants?

Okay, no, look, you of all people should know your bioethics. Or something. :smalltongue:

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'm starting to think there's a Freefall strip for anything.

[pjie2]

The implosion spell was obviously houseruled to be used multiple times on the same person. We see the sound effect for the first attempt, in the 2nd panel, and then a gesture from RC and another sound effect in the 5th. The Giant has also stated that he will deviate from the rules whenever he feels like doing it.

I don’t see that this even needs a houserule. The spell says, “You can target a particular creature only once with each casting of the spell.”

Redcloak targeted Durkon once, and then maintained his concentration for several rounds while Durkon made successive saves. Making the save doesn’t cause Redcloak to lose his target and start thinking of something else.

As I read it, the spell prohibits you from targeting A, then B, then A again (assume A made their first save). It’s not a one-and-done fizzle if you only have one opponent and they make one save.

[Fyraltari]

Though they wouldn't get the splashy effects that we saw for Miko, as the Giant has explained, it seems to me that the clue would drop when their magically-blue gear lost its colour.

and they didn't even notice because of the greyscale. Yes-yes it all makes sense.

[B. Dandelion]

I appreciate people trying to cheer me up about Redcloak and I will try to draw some confidence from your confidence.


It might help to know that there's roughly zero chance of your predictions coming to fruition.

I totally do want to be wrong here. I've been trying to steel myself to the idea that a redemptive plotline is just not going to happen, because honestly there doesn't have to be one and I'd rather not pine away for something that is clearly impossible. I want to have hope, but not to the point of being delusional.


This behavior is a roughly straight-line continuation of Redcloak's character, which is the expected result of an initial confrontation. It in no way precludes Redcloak being part of the solution, whether or not that includes some form of personal redemption for him.

I am still giving it a little time.


And the plain fact is that there are no substitutes for Redcloak. There's no one else who can participate in Thor's ritual. It's going to be Redcloak staring down the barrel of that choice. Count on it.

My position on Thor's plan has been that it won't happen like that anyway. No plan that is explained that thoroughly ever works out exactly as described. I'm firmly convinced that the solution to the Snarl problem is not going to be that they just keep it jammed inside the planet but reinforce the locks with the purple quiddity. The planet within the planet that the gods don't know about makes that idea dubious to begin with, but also, the deadly Snarl being trapped in the planet is another facet of the awful status quo that so clearly needs radical change. The Snarl will be handled in some other more satisfying fashion rather than merely re-imprisoned. That way will involve goblins, I'm sure, because they have been set up as a kind of "missing piece" that helps complete a puzzle.

But I don't know if goblins being involved in the solution means Redcloak has to be a part of the solution unless the real solution, as off the rails as I expect it to be, retains the exact same requirement of a 9th-level clerical spell slot as the current plan. Maybe that's a red herring demanding the involvement of one of goblinkind's worst monsters? Maybe there's another way for the goblins to get what they want for themselves without having to be shackled to Redcloak the goblin-murderer as their only potential savior?


I understand your frustration as I was empathizing with Redcloak too. But it's not over yet. I don't think he'll survive any of this, but hell if Belkar of all people can realize what a jackass he's been (even if too late to save himself from karma), there's hope RC can do the same.

I still maintain that Minrah's quote about clerics changing their minds was foreshadowing.

I like that idea about foreshadowing. There's still the mystery of the Dark One to think about, too...


Redcloak has been "a detestable shell of his former self" for years on end now, and the entirety of the free-to-read online comic. That's why we don't know his birth name.

...Fair, and yet, moreso, you know? In #1210 he is at his peak worst and if I have to keep reading when he's like that all the time I will not find the experience enjoyable. My hope is that we needed to see him at his worst but truest self right away, in order to understand the scope of the problem.


The idea that Durkon, a complete stranger from what he considers an ennemy people and an ennemy religion would be able to fix him in a conversation was always a pipe dream. I am fairly confident that Redcloak will end up on the side of the angels before all is said and done, but for that to happen something must happen to him to make him want to change. Because, and I think that is one of the most important lessons of life, one I still haven't fully learned: no matter how hard you try, you cannot logic someone out of a situation they didn't logic themselves into.

I knew going in there was no chance of it actually happening and the whole confrontation would end badly. Didn't know for sure it would go this definitively badly but I did know it wouldn't work.

I'm glad to hear people saying they still think that. You seem like you've got a pretty good grasp on things. You're giving me some confidence.


I think Durkon will try again, regardless of personal feelings, because (as far as he knows) there are no other options. Above all, Durkon wants to save the world and the people on it (Kudzu, Sigdi, even Hilgya) that mean so much to him. He's not going to like it, but he's not going to give up no matter how crazy Redcloak becomes, because the alternative is that the world gets destroyed and the cycle continues.

Yeah, one of the things I was thinking I am specifically going to be looking for is the future is indication that Durkon is not going to be deterred from trying again. That will immediately give me hope again. Although Roy is now going to be an issue as far as plans of that nature go...


Well, Redcloak will betray Xykon at some point, and I suspect the Order will try to take advantage of it beforehand. It's really early in the book (only 20 comics in) and just as so much changed within these 20, a lot more could happen in the next 200.

Maybe a slightly uplifting commentary from UD:

There are no easy solutions and there’s no rulebook he can consult. In some ways, it is more of a challenge to his newfound resolve than any combat encounter could be. If he falls into his old patterns and lets Hilgya take the lead, then his son will likely be raised as a chaotic Loki-worshipper. But attempting to seize total control will also backfire, as her equal clerical power means she can easily disappear with Kudzu. He must make a true peace with her, such that she’s willing to share responsibility for their child’s wellbeing—just as he now must find a way to make peace with Redcloak for the sake of the entire world.

Actually that's a lot better than slightly uplifting. Your username checks out for sure. I can't believe I forgot that part.


I can see the story not ending with that ritual, of course. There's so many other factors in play. However, I can't see this story ending without Redcloak staring down that choice. That is to say, just because other factors will complicate the outcome doesn't mean this factor can or will go ignored.

As for what his character has always been about, I'm going to return to something I said in the last thread:


I don't think it's possible at this point to detach the issue of goblin equality from the issue of Redcloak's character arc. This thread has talked about how wasteful it would be to kill off Minrah here. I think it would be an order of magnitude more wasteful to somehow excise Redcloak's character arc from the goblinoid solution. However twisted he is, Redcloak is also the only speaker for a central and legitimate viewpoint about goblinoid equality. While I don't expect it to be validated wholesale, it must be addressed, it cannot be outright rejected, and Redcloak is the best vehicle for that.

I'm finding this pretty persuasive, I must say. . . :smallsmile:

[bunsen_h]

Okay, no, look, you of all people should know your bioethics. Or something. :smalltongue:

I see nothing ethically objectionable to mutant vegetables, assuming that they're in tune, of course.


I don’t see that this even needs a houserule. The spell says, “You can target a particular creature only once with each casting of the spell.”

Redcloak targeted Durkon once, and then maintained his concentration for several rounds while Durkon made successive saves. Making the save doesn’t cause Redcloak to lose his target and start thinking of something else.

As I read it, the spell prohibits you from targeting A, then B, then A again (assume A made their first save). It’s not a one-and-done fizzle if you only have one opponent and they make one save.

It seems to me that if you have only one opponent and they make their save, the spell is done. I suppose that you might be able to hold the spell active for another couple of rounds in case some other opponent appears. But I don't think you can target your opponent, and keep trying on that opponent until they fail to make a save. I don't think it's just a prohibition against trying a second time on A after switching to B.


and they didn't even notice because of the greyscale. Yes-yes it all makes sense.

"In fact, those photographs are in color (http://calvin-and-hobbes-comic-strips.blogspot.com/2011/11/calvin-asks-dad-about-old-black-and.html). It's just that the world was black and white back then."

[Psyren]

I don’t see that this even needs a houserule. The spell says, “You can target a particular creature only once with each casting of the spell.”

Redcloak targeted Durkon once, and then maintained his concentration for several rounds while Durkon made successive saves. Making the save doesn’t cause Redcloak to lose his target and start thinking of something else.

As I read it, the spell prohibits you from targeting A, then B, then A again (assume A made their first save). It’s not a one-and-done fizzle if you only have one opponent and they make one save.

Ha, nice! I like this reading.

[Jasdoif]

My hope is that we needed to see him at his worst but truest self right away, in order to understand the scope of the problem.The scope of a problem, at the very least.

[JonahFalcon]

It's a great moment, but really undercut by the statue on the right. :-D

[RatElemental]

I wonder if rich didn't mentally wander over to the PF version. That one has a damage rider on it. Or it's just the spell working a bit differently in universe because Rich either doesn't care or didn't remember because it's his comic and it works like how he says it does anyways. I look forward to 15 pages of argument on the matter.

I'm way late on this, and someone may or may not have said this already, but I highly doubt it. The pathfinder version of implosion doesn't have a partial negation that does damage, it's just a straight nerf of the 3.5 version. Instead of save or die it's save or take a boat load of damage (10 per CL, no cap), there is no partial damage if you save.

[Corian]

I had a friend tell me Panda Express was as good as Happy Panda. Happy Panda was a consistently 4 star reviewed sit down restaurant (kind of dropped lately) and panda express is a greasy fast food chain. He also thought Dominos was as good as Nona Emilias (same relationship) so I just don't think he tastes food.

Ah, but it's very different. My friend was not making such equivalences, she just said she did not care either way. Tasty, tasteless, food is food, she did not see the point of fussing over it. (She a bit more got into it, decades later.) And to answer the weirdo, she did enjoy other things, just not food.

[Jasdoif]

I'm way late on this, and someone may or may not have said this already, but I highly doubt it. The pathfinder version of implosion doesn't have a partial negation that does damage, it's just a straight nerf of the 3.5 version. Instead of save or die it's save or take a boat load of damage (10 per CL, no cap), there is no partial damage if you save.So it's sort of a "mass-harm-lite", other than lacking the "can't reduce below 1hp" part?

[RatElemental]

So it's sort of a "mass-harm-lite", other than lacking the "can't reduce below 1hp" part?

Pretty much, except pathfinder Harm also caps at 150 damage but deals half on a successful save.

[ddn2004]

I wonder if TDO is listening in?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, this was quite a strip! I was not at all expecting Minrah to come in here; kudos to those of you who are better at this prediction stuff than I am. I’m throwing my money in on the hammer being what lets her cast Thor’s Might so I’m excited to be proven wrong. On the subject of D&D rules, while I was a bit thrown by how Implosion was presented here, the combination of a) the art of Durkon getting slowly crushed (ouch! :smalleek:) and b) the knowledge that the majority of people who read this comic have no idea how Implosion works anyway is more than enough to mollify me.

“Na as many as ye” plus panel 4 is why this comic remains one of my favorite works.

[tawnyterror]

I've always thought the way 'Implosion' is represented in OotS looked very cool ever since back when it was shown during the plotline with the Azure City rebels, so it's fun to see again. It might seem like an odd fascination but I'm very interested in 'art distortion' when used as a tool in 2D media and so seeing the usually static and conforming lines of the characters become twisted up in a way that isn't shown in any other context is very compelling and has a uniquely gruesome impact!
To see a character distort like that in a simplex art style would normally be easy to brush off as special effects (like V becoming stretched out while sucked into a wormhole) but the fact that you could see his body reacting to the strain, and even bleeding in panel 3 really cements how painful and real this was to Durkon.. Something that should be impossible, because "oh, bodies are not supposed to do that.."
I probably shouldn't think too hard on this, but I really admire comics and so I love to see art quirks be taken advantage of and utilized to create unique effects!

[ss49]

Redcloak fails at outthinking Thor.

[BlueHydra]

Redcloak gets owned by two clerics of Thor in rapid succession! Hahahaha!

He's so thor he can hardly walk.

[Particle_Man]

I just hope RC lost his concentration so that he cannot target Minrah with the Implosion spell.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I just hope RC lost his concentration so that he cannot target Minrah with the Implosion spell.

The spell fizzled, which indicates it is lost. He might have prepared two, though.

GW

[bunsen_h]

Ha, nice! I like this reading.

It doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. One can make a reasonable case, in game terms, for the spell not being able to be tried on a given target more than once per casting. But if it could be tried on a given target more than once (e.g. "keep trying until it succeeds or we run out of tries"), it's a lot harder to justify being able to switch from A to B but not back to A.

[Crookwise]

My position on Thor's plan has been that it won't happen like that anyway. No plan that is explained that thoroughly ever works out exactly as described. I'm firmly convinced that the solution to the Snarl problem is not going to be that they just keep it jammed inside the planet but reinforce the locks with the purple quiddity. The planet within the planet that the gods don't know about makes that idea dubious to begin with, but also, the deadly Snarl being trapped in the planet is another facet of the awful status quo that so clearly needs radical change. The Snarl will be handled in some other more satisfying fashion rather than merely re-imprisoned. That way will involve goblins, I'm sure, because they have been set up as a kind of "missing piece" that helps complete a puzzle.


I'm on a line of reasoning following the information we already got from Thor or have otherwise received in-setting; hopefully I'm not the only one to make all of these observations, but please follow along:

•Quiddities represent the family or pantheon worshipped by a particular faith group (comprised of beings with souls) that believes in their existence, so presumably, any *new* deity-worshipping faith (not a pre-existing one that already believes in an existing pantheon) from which a new divinity springs will give that deity a unique quiddity (which is the bare minimum needed to explain how TDO came to be),

•Any given deity requires worship of a significant magnitude to be sustained (it doesn't matter if a world that can provide worship currently exists or not; they still need worship to survive, individually), which requires that beings to worship them have souls (souls being, for this purpose, "what's left of a being that has an afterlife after it has died", as sylphs and the like belong to a different category and don't have afterlives so presumably don't generate faith when they die),

•Deities create worlds so that beings with souls can exist and worship them, and may specify which souls go to which deity under what conditions, but do not *have to* (or else there would be no wager as proposed by Loki) - so if it's not predetermined, souls normally go to whichever deity they revere most,

•A world is as "real" in quality as the number of quiddities that contribute to its making,

•The world in the Snarl, if it was created even partially intentionally - and with, presumably, the quiddities of all four original pantheons - *probably* contains beings with souls that could provide worship to *any* deity (assuming the norm is the rule, since it likely is - although sylphs exist and don't have afterlives, indicating deviation is possible, it still seems implausible to me that the gods' world-making desires excluded self-interested survival methods to any extent even during the Snarl's creation),

•If so, it should be "real" enough that it can't be unmade by less than four quiddities, just like the Snarl itself. Therefore, as things stand, it's immune or at least highly resistant to destructive divine influence.

What this adds up to, for me, at least, is that if it is possible to travel to, the rift-world represents safety from apocalypse for any creature or deity that can make it there.

Would-be willing refugees to it can be assumed to be:
TDO (provided he eventually believes his existence to be at risk)
The goblin species
Anyone that isn't happy knowing that the three pantheons can just pull the plug any time they like

We can also assume that, if all of the above is true, then it follows that the world in the rift can give rise to additional deities and quiddities, *if* its soul-having beings can be given the proper discreet motivation to imagine new deific theology.

That could lead to a plan to seal the rift from within, which would hopefully resolve the problem of the Snarl (provided they can be convinced it exists and is a problem they need to work together to solve).

I'm not saying I think that every possibility I just mentioned is plausible (not sure it's possible to enter the rift and survive, for anyone), but it's a potential solution that has had more than adequate foreshadowing and plenty of canonical supporting facts to be construed as such.

[Jacky720]

On killing Minrah, or Durkon, or Redcloak, or anyone, off at this point: Tropes aside, not going to happen; we're almost in the endgame and we need all of these people for the climax.

From here, the dwarves bail and one of the mysterious groups introduces more conflict (I'm thinking the secret new guys have KO'ed the Order off-panel once the dwarves get back, or something) to prevent the OotS from fighting Xykon immediately and to prolong the book, getting themselves dealt with in the process. This takes a good while to properly clear, at which point Xykon brings the fight to them using the intel Durkon just leaked.

On how this breaks Implosion, Wind Walk, and/or general action economy: I almost cared, but this is too awesome to complain about.

On how sick of a burn that was: Very.

On the hammer's name: We all know it's The Hefty, Operational, and Radical Baddie Obliterator (Notwithstanding Knockouts): THORBONK.

On what will become of Redcloak: He will, after learning something or other about the planet in the Rifts, be forced to face his misdeeds and promptly have a breakdown because the plot mechanism indirectly showing him his errors won't be Implodable/Destructible/Disintegratible/Slayable. When he recovers, he will seek atonement and switch sides to help with the new Rift-solving (no longer -sealing) operation. It must happen in this or a similar way, because all of the other options either cheapen his character (by solving the conflict without him) or validate his sunk-cost fallacy (by letting him succeed without redemption).

On potatoes, pandas, fun, Soylent, and whatever else: Come on, it's been 14 hours. Show some restraint. :wink:

[The_Weirdo]

Show some restraint. :wink:

You must be new here. :smallbiggrin:

[Jacky720]

You must be new here. :smallbiggrin:
Really? That's what gave it away?

[The_Weirdo]

Really? That's what gave it away?

I mean, you could have been a longtime lurker and only a poster recently. And in my defense, I made the pithy comment before seeing just when you joined. But I digress. Nice to meet you. I am The Weirdo and it's possible some of my comments drove a lot of people here to see me as, shall we say, a bit of a radical. :smallbiggrin:

[TheNecrocomicon]

This behavior is a roughly straight-line continuation of Redcloak's character, which is the expected result of an initial confrontation. It in no way precludes Redcloak being part of the solution, whether or not that includes some form of personal redemption for him.

And the plain fact is that there are no substitutes for Redcloak. There's no one else who can participate in Thor's ritual. It's going to be Redcloak staring down the barrel of that choice. Count on it.


Redcloak has been "a detestable shell of his former self" for years on end now, and the entirety of the free-to-read online comic. That's why we don't know his birth name.

The idea that Durkon, a complete stranger from what he considers an ennemy people and an ennemy religion would be able to fix him in a conversation was always a pipe dream. I am fairly confident that Redcloak will end up on the side of the angels before all is said and done, but for that to happen something must happen to him to make him want to change. Because, and I think that is one of the most important lessons of life, one I still haven't fully learned: no matter how hard you try, you cannot logic someone out of a situation they didn't logic themselves into.


To review Redcloak's greatest hits as a member of Team Evil:


He knowingly sent thousands of hobgoblins to their deaths for no good reason. When he later had a revelation that this was bad, it wasn't because they were sentient beings, but because they were goblinoids.
His "Gobbotopia" is a tyrannical state built on slave labor.
He tortured O-Chul even after he was convinced the paladin had no useful information, just because it was a convenient way to manipulate Xykon.
When he destroyed the Resistance, he did not simply kill them, he reveled in wanton violence (the "decoration" of their fortress).
He threw Tsukiko to the chlorine elemental because he thought it was funny.
When he later killed Tsukiko, he inflicted the most cruel death he could have done, watching her die at the hands of her own beloved undead.

One of the recurring themes of OotS is "Evil is evil no matter how you dress it up." Tarquin was charismatic, dashing, charming Evil. Malack was civilized, courteous, intellectual Evil. But they were both still very much Evil, and Rich made a point of showing us what that meant in the end.

Now he's doing the same thing with Redcloak. RC hasn't changed a bit; he is just doing to a protagonist what he has already done to countless others.

These.

All of these.

Just like people excused Thog's wanton murder sprees because he was "lovable", now people seem to be excusing Redcloak's many atrocities just because he's a competent villain who plans relatively well. And Mr. Burlew seems to take a (rightfully) dim view of misaimed fandoms (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MisaimedFandom).

[The_Weirdo]

These.

All of these.

Just like people excused Thog's wanton murder sprees because he was "lovable", now people seem to be excusing Redcloak's many atrocities just because he's a competent villain who plans relatively well. And Mr. Burlew seems to take a (rightfully) dim view of misaimed fandoms (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MisaimedFandom).

Let me be clear here: there's a difference between saying he's not evil (for the record, he is) or a bad person in general (for the record, he is) who sold his soul for power in a misguided attempt at seeing a sunk-cost fallacy to the end (for the record, he is) and saying that the gods and world deserve him for how they've treated the goblins (for the record, they do).

Redcloak is evil, sure. Because he's doing exactly what the humans taught him that Lawful Good people do.
Redcloak is threatening, sure. Because he's negotiating exactly how the humans taught his god to negotiate.
Redcloak wants vengeance under the guise of equality, sure. Because they gave him something to be extremely vengeful about to preserve inequality.

Redcloak is a villain. But he is the exact kind of villain the gods and "heroes" like the SG would eventually create and deserve. And he is necessary, because, evil though he may be, the last time goblins asked nicely,their leader got assassinated. When they merely chose to mind their own business in the bad lands the gods made sure was all they had, their village got invaded and they got slaughtered. Men, women and children. By the Lawful Good Paladins. So, he's Evil, sure. But did anything else ever work for the goblins?

Because, at the end of the day, Redcloak isn't only Evil. He's also a perfect portrait of everything that has been done to him and to his kind. Or a reapplication of those, only to the non-goblinoids.

[Anitar]

He's also a perfect portrait of everything that has been done to him and to his kind. Or a reapplication of those, only to the non-goblinoids.

Except the missing eye. He hasn't inflicted that one on anyone else (that we've seen) yet.

[The_Weirdo]

Except the missing eye. He hasn't inflicted that one on anyone else (that we've seen) yet.

Sure, but you got my point. :smalltongue:

[B. Dandelion]

These.

All of these.

Just like people excused Thog's wanton murder sprees because he was "lovable", now people seem to be excusing Redcloak's many atrocities just because he's a competent villain who plans relatively well. And Mr. Burlew seems to take a (rightfully) dim view of misaimed fandoms (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MisaimedFandom).

Excuse me, all of those posts are in reply to me and I was not excusing Redcloak's atrocities. Nor are Lethologica and Fyraltari's replies some chastisement of me for doing such a thing. (Dausuul, maybe.) I was expressing sadness that it looked like he would never stop doing them, and would continue to become an even more wicked villain until the end. I'm insulted by the implication that I'm part of his "misaimed fandom" and don't try to put my sympathy for him in the proper context, which includes acknowledging his many crimes and the impact they've had on people.

[Gurgeh]

I'm not sure which Lawful Good examples Redcloak got of slave labour, callous massacres of your own troops (i.e., his constant disregard for the hobgoblins throughout NCPB and most of WXP) and torture. Were they hidden in bonus strips?

[abadguy]

I'm imagining it being "Hammer Down!"

[The_Weirdo]

I'm not sure which Lawful Good examples Redcloak got of slave labour, callous massacres of your own troops (i.e., his constant disregard for the hobgoblins throughout NCPB and most of WXP) and torture. Were they hidden in bonus strips?

Oh, not his own, no. True, I'll give the SG that; they were always perfectly nice to their own, whereas Redcloak was not. They also didn't enslave the goblins they slaughtered.

So, kudos on the paladins for being so LG?

[Edric O]

Durkon negotiated for the wrong thing. He should have promised Redcloak that the gods will give The Dark One a major seat at the table in designing the next world, ensuring that goblins would get fair treatment.

Durkon's entire negotiation strategy was wrong from the start. He tried to persuade Redcloak that there is no scenario in which he can win. He should have instead opened with "Redcloak, you have already won. Your plan was to blackmail the gods into doing what The Dark One wants. Well, as it happens, TDO has something the other gods need, so they're already willing to give him what he wants, if he'll just talk to them."

[The_Weirdo]

Durkon negotiated for the wrong thing. He should have promised Redcloak that the gods will give The Dark One a major seat at the table in designing the next world, ensuring that goblins would get fair treatment.

Durkon's entire negotiation strategy was wrong from the start. He tried to persuade Redcloak that there is no scenario in which he can win. He should have instead opened with "Redcloak, you have already won. Your plan was to blackmail the gods into doing what The Dark One wants. Well, as it happens, TDO has something the other gods need, so they're already willing to give him what he wants, if he'll just talk to them."

That is actually a pretty good point.

[Anitar]

Durkon negotiated for the wrong thing. He should have promised Redcloak that the gods will give The Dark One a major seat at the table in designing the next world, ensuring that goblins would get fair treatment.

Durkon's not a liar-- and he doesn't have the CHA to start now. He would never say TDO will do anything for the next world, because if there is a next world, TDO won't live to see it.

[Peelee]

Durkon negotiated for the wrong thing. He should have promised Redcloak that the gods will give The Dark One a major seat at the table in designing the next world, ensuring that goblins would get fair treatment.

Durkon's entire negotiation strategy was wrong from the start. He tried to persuade Redcloak that there is no scenario in which he can win. He should have instead opened with "Redcloak, you have already won. Your plan was to blackmail the gods into doing what The Dark One wants. Well, as it happens, TDO has something the other gods need, so they're already willing to give him what he wants, if he'll just talk to them."

So you're suggesting that Durkon should have proposed something which Redcloak is already expecting anyway, and which would not actually work, and which would require the exact opposite of what Durkon and Thor want?

That's...certainly a proposition.

[Edric O]

Durkon's not a liar-- and he doesn't have the CHA to start now. He would never say TDO will do anything for the next world, because if there is a next world, TDO won't live to see it.
As I understand it, TDO won't live to see the next world if this world is ended right now. But if this world continues for, say, another thousand years, TDO could get stronger.

[Gurgeh]

Not sure how Durkon's supposed to pitch that to Redcloak, if that's the suggestion. "Put up with the status quo that your god dislikes and you personally despise for another thousand years or so and then the next go around will be better (but not for you or anyone you know because that will only happen after this world's been utterly destroyed)" doesn't seem like much of a deal.

[Peelee]

Not sure how Durkon's supposed to pitch that to Redcloak, if that's the suggestion. "Put up with the status quo that your god dislikes and you personally despise for another thousand years or so and then the next go around will be better (but not for you or anyone you know because that will only happen after this world's been utterly destroyed)" doesn't seem like much of a deal.

And is the same thing as The Plan's plan B, except worse because of the added thousand years. At least as far as Redcloak is concerned.

[Edric O]

Not sure how Durkon's supposed to pitch that to Redcloak, if that's the suggestion. "Put up with the status quo that your god dislikes and you personally despise for another thousand years or so and then the next go around will be better (but not for you or anyone you know because that will only happen after this world's been utterly destroyed)" doesn't seem like much of a deal.
Well, I wouldn't pitch it that way. I would pitch it as previously mentioned: "Your god has something the other gods need and they're willing to be very accommodating if he'll just talk to them. Please have your god call my god. Thanks." Certain details can be avoided.

Durkon's primary mission is to get TDO to talk to Thor. He doesn't need to work out a deal in advance.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Durkon's primary mission is to get Redcloak to cooperate with a ritual Thor wants to cast. TDO only comes into it as a source of purple quiddity.

[bunsen_h]

I don’t see that this even needs a houserule. The spell says, “You can target a particular creature only once with each casting of the spell.”

Redcloak targeted Durkon once, and then maintained his concentration for several rounds while Durkon made successive saves. Making the save doesn’t cause Redcloak to lose his target and start thinking of something else.

As I read it, the spell prohibits you from targeting A, then B, then A again (assume A made their first save). It’s not a one-and-done fizzle if you only have one opponent and they make one save.

Are there other spells whose descriptions refer to "targeting", which might resolve the ambiguity between "choosing as a target" (which occurs once) and "using the spell to actually act upon" (which may occur multiple times)?

[Gurgeh]

Targets: One corporeal creature/round
To me, that implies that each subsequent round requires a new target.

[Edric O]

Durkon's primary mission is to get Redcloak to cooperate with a ritual Thor wants to cast. TDO only comes into it as a source of purple quiddity.
Oh, you're right. I just went back (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html) and checked. Well, then Durkon's mistake was understandable, but also inevitable. There's absolutely no way in the near-infinite dead worlds that Durkon could persuade Redcloak to go behind TDO's back on something. Redcloak is literally willing to end his own life and all the other lives in the world in service to TDO. But Durkon doesn't know that, and I think neither does Thor.

As things stand, I don't see how Redcloak can be persuaded without getting TDO on board first. Maybe character development will change that. But right now I'd say that getting TDO to talk to Thor should be the goal.

[danielxcutter]

I can see a 50/50 chance of TDO rolling his eyes (because he died in the first place from getting baited into an ambush with peace talks) or going "How do you like that suckers!"(because that's how he died). Or maybe even both really, I dunno.

Re: rules - I think it's safe to say that Mr. Burlew would punt the rules out the window if it made for a better story. I think that goes for "how games typically go" as well; otherwise I would absolutely be calling BS towards both how ridiculously stronger Team Evil is compared to the Order and especially like, half of DStP in general.

Re: Redcloak - Mr. Burlew said something about characters on their worst day, right? What they truly are when it matters? I think this shows at least part of who he is - it's probably not his "worst day", but the "I'm actively going to make you suffer because you pissed me off" part is an important facet of his personality. I trust the Giant to make this lead to a logical, satisfying conclusion, though I don't have the faintest idea how that would happen now. I think I at least partly agree with The Weirdo, in that while Redcloak is an Evil person who has done and is still doing Evil things for a not-really-that-Good ultimate motivation, but that he is also a manifestation of karma biting Azure City as a whole in the arse for how the past SG treated goblinoids.

I don't think the SG during the Battle of Azure City really deserved that, but that... well...

It's largely implied if not outright stated that a large portion of the SG used to be extremist ********s before O-Chul joined the Guard and helped reform it from within(likely with the help of Hinjo; from what I hear Hinjo just as Good as he is now, just maybe a bit naive).

So the group of paladins and clerics who are largely responsible for how Redcloak turned out probably doesn't have much overlap, if any, with the Guard that Xykon and Redcloak slaughtered.

[Anitar]

So, I don't recall off the top of my head, but was there any indication before this scene that Durkon was capable of such... pure, burning vitriol? Like, he was usually still pretty civil even with people he explicitly hates, like the vampire hijacking his body.

Or maybe this instance just seems more intense to me because the visual in panel 3(?) here disturbs me enough that I'm intentionally avoiding looking at it again.

[Etilworg]

Interesting - thus begins the discussion on how Implosion works within the universe of The Order of the Stick.

Rule of cool

[arimareiji]

RAW Implosion is VERY unclear on what happens to the remains of the creature it kills or what state they're in. The Giant has evidently ruled that it doesn't leave any. Redcloak's statement ("implode into oblivion") supports this ruling.

I'm curious, did he explicitly make it clear somewhere? 826 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html) seemed to show that something would be left, even if it was "something resembling the results of a ketchup packet in a hydraulic press".

[Psyren]

It doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. One can make a reasonable case, in game terms, for the spell not being able to be tried on a given target more than once per casting. But if it could be tried on a given target more than once (e.g. "keep trying until it succeeds or we run out of tries"), it's a lot harder to justify being able to switch from A to B but not back to A.

The issue is that this sentence is ambiguous:

"You can target a particular creature only once with each casting of the spell."

It's unclear whether "target once" refers to only being allowed a singular attempt at killing that creature, or whether it refers to only being allowed to designate a given creature as a target of the spell once. Redcloak did the latter with Durkon, and since he didn't target anyone else with it on subsequent rounds, Durkon is still the target.

Having the choice between spreading out your kill attempts among multiple foes across multiple rounds, or focusing on a single target for that time and forcing multiple saves until they eventually fail one and die horribly, seems fitting for a 9th-level spell in my book.



I'm curious, did he explicitly make it clear somewhere? 826 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html) seemed to show that something would be left, even if it was "something resembling the results of a ketchup packet in a hydraulic press".

That strip doesn't actually show us the end result - presumably the "SPPLRTCH!" is an action panel, where the elven resistance leader is in the process of collapsing on himself. We don't see any remains in the subsequent panels or strip before Redcloak collapses the base. Given that we do see other corpses in that time, it supports the Giant's interpretation that implosion leaves nothing behind.

[understatement]

So, I don't recall off the top of my head, but was there any indication before this scene that Durkon was capable of such... pure, burning vitriol? Like, he was usually still pretty civil even with people he explicitly hates, like the vampire hijacking his body.

Or maybe this instance just seems more intense to me because the visual in panel 3(?) here disturbs me enough that I'm intentionally avoiding looking at it again.

Well, he's being crushed into a 1x1 inch area, and he's not afraid of torture or death. Might as well make the parting shot worth it, huh?

Thank goodness that parting shot saved his life.

***

Weirdly enough, 1210 is easier to read than 1209 despite its more gruesome graphics -- mainly because it "ends better." Still, panel 2 is just so disturbing to look at; probably something to do with how spiky Durkon's beard gets, or how one of his eyes squeezes in pain. What a terrible way to (almost) go.

[Emmit Svenson]

I've got no problem with a comic stretching the rules of the game when it results in dramatic awesomeness, as this comic does. But it seems to bother some folks, so for their satisfaction, I present a fully 3.5 compliant interpretation of this comic's action:

Minrah, having already cast Thor's Might, hovers above Durkon and Redcloak in Wind Walk gaseous form.

Redcloak attacks. Neither Durkon nor Minrah are surprised. They all roll initiative. Durkon and Minrah beat Redcloak.

Durkon readies an action to dismiss Wind Walk when Redcloak starts casting a spell. Minrah readies an action to bash Redcloak with her hammer when he is in reach.

Redcloak starts to cast Implosion. He and Durkon engage in a little free-action dialogue while Redcloak concentrates for a round on imploding Durkon, as the spell requires. Durkon dismisses Wind Walk. Minrah falls instantly to the ground (not an action) while shouting "THOR'S MIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT!", for much the same reason that Haley shouts "Sneak Attack!"

Minrah smashes Redcloak, who loses concentration. His Implosion spell fizzles as he casts it.

[Linneris]

Chekov's Minrah FTW.

Chekhov's. As in the writer, not the ensign on the Enterprise. :)

[Anitar]

I've got no problem with a comic stretching the rules of the game when it results in dramatic awesomeness, as this comic does. But it seems to bother some folks, so for their satisfaction, I present a fully 3.5 compliant interpretation of this comic's action:
(excised for brevity)

If the spell was prevented from doing anything, why is Durkon visibly wounded now, and why did he visibly bleed?

[Emmit Svenson]

If the spell was prevented from doing anything, why is Durkon visibly wounded now, and why did he visibly bleed?

Cosmetic spell effects, no different than the black glow of the Inflict Wounds and Poison spells that Malack used on Durkon to no effect, or the temporary swirly eyes Roy had while making his saving throw vs. domination.

As we know, actual wounds--being impaled on a sword, for example--result in no spilled blood in this world.

[Anitar]

Cosmetic spell effects, no different than the black glow of the Inflict Wounds and Poison spells that Malack used on Durkon to no effect, or the temporary swirly eyes Roy had while making his saving throw vs. domination.

Not out of the question, I suppose. What about when Redcloak specifically states that Durkon is suffering excruciating pain from the spell "right now"?

[Emmit Svenson]

Not out of the question, I suppose. What about when Redcloak specifically states that Durkon is suffering excruciating pain from the spell "right now"?

What about it? Does it have a mechanical effect on the scene that we need to explain with rules?

[chy03001]

What an entrance! Elan would be proud :-D

[Psyren]

I've got no problem with a comic stretching the rules of the game when it results in dramatic awesomeness, as this comic does. But it seems to bother some folks, so for their satisfaction, I present a fully 3.5 compliant interpretation of this comic's action:

Minrah, having already cast Thor's Might, hovers above Durkon and Redcloak in Wind Walk gaseous form.

Redcloak attacks. Neither Durkon nor Minrah are surprised. They all roll initiative. Durkon and Minrah beat Redcloak.

Durkon readies an action to dismiss Wind Walk when Redcloak starts casting a spell. Minrah readies an action to bash Redcloak with her hammer when he is in reach.

Redcloak starts to cast Implosion. He and Durkon engage in a little free-action dialogue while Redcloak concentrates for a round on imploding Durkon, as the spell requires. Durkon dismisses Wind Walk. Minrah falls instantly to the ground (not an action) while shouting "THOR'S MIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT!", for much the same reason that Haley shouts "Sneak Attack!"

Minrah smashes Redcloak, who loses concentration. His Implosion spell fizzles as he casts it.

Works for me.


What about when Redcloak specifically states that Durkon is suffering excruciating pain from the spell "right now"?

The spell was still going on when he said that, so I don't see the issue.

[Emmit Svenson]

Minrah has the Hammer of Thunderbolts, but not the gloves or belt. I wonder why he would lend her that, but not them, when the combination is immensely more powerful? Were they rushed for time?

[Anitar]

Were they rushed for time?

Considering that the timeframe of this plan must have been "before Roy notices, and before Redcloak is in the company of someone important", I'm going with yes.

[DaveMcW]

Durkon dismisses Wind Walk. Minrah falls instantly to the ground

That is not compliant with the 3.5 description of Wind Walk (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm).


You alter the substance of your body to a cloudlike vapor (as the gaseous form (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm) spell) and move through the air, possibly at great speed. You can take other creatures with you, each of which acts independently...

A wind walker can regain its physical form as desired and later resume the cloud form. Each change to and from vaporous form takes 5 rounds, which counts toward the duration of the spell

The subject and all its gear become insubstantial, misty, and translucent... It can’t attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components while in gaseous form... It also can’t manipulate objects or activate items, even those carried along with its gaseous form.


It is clear that Implosion, Wind Walk, and Righteous Might are all modified to make the epic fight scene work.

[arimareiji]

That strip doesn't actually show us the end result - presumably the "SPPLRTCH!" is an action panel, where the elven resistance leader is in the process of collapsing on himself. We don't see any remains in the subsequent panels or strip before Redcloak collapses the base. Given that we do see other corpses in that time, it supports the Giant's interpretation that implosion leaves nothing behind.

True, we don't see a pile of gore on the floor next to the leader's weapon when Redcloak does the same thing to the bowperson next panel. But in both we see red stuff shooting outward as they get sqwyefugfqewaeftched.

You could make a good argument for "the red stuff shooting out is just artistic, to help evoke them getting sqyeirufwgrched - it could still be true that their remains collapse inward all the way to nonexistence".

But you could also make a good argument for "Rich wasn't keen on drawing piles of gore in the background, especially if they need to be closely tracked or someone will nitpick it". (Especially when it seems like he minimizes drawing corpses even on a battlefield that should be heaped with them, adding the same "especially" qualifier.)

[dancrilis]

That is not compliant with the 3.5 description of Wind Walk (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm).

That is when someone chooses to change between gas and solid as part of the spell, Durkon dismissing on her is different - that would be 'no more magic you are solid immediately'.

[Gurgeh]

Minrah has the Hammer of Thunderbolts, but not the gloves or belt. I wonder why he would lend her that, but not them, when the combination is immensely more powerful? Were they rushed for time?
We don't know for a fact that Durkon even has a belt of giant strength, since no belt was depicted in the hidden compartment and Durkon's been shown with a belt of some sort pretty consistently before and after his Greg Episode.

We don't even know whether the Loki Sucks hammer is an SRD-style Hammer of Thunderbolts, at that; there are some noticeable mechanical inconsistencies as it stands. The 3.5 Hammer of Thunderbolts is Large, it doesn't deal electrical damage, and its thunderclap effect only fires off when it's thrown, not when it's used in melee, for instance.

[Akari Itagami]

Either way there is a rule being broken here (Minrah could not ready an action to cast Thor's Might AND jump into melee from off-panel AND swing at Reddy before the spell went off) so the former rule is the one I'll go with.


I'm no expert but will give my best shot at this, quick-spell Thor's Might with slight rule-bending maybe?

[Paleomancer]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
I have no desire to justify any evil actions on the part of anyone; quite the opposite. All I'm saying is that we have plenty of examples of that sort of "justification" in our own world... so it wouldn't be surprising to see it from Redcloak.

{Scrubbed}

I admit, it troubles and frustrates me that Redcloak is the main narrative lens through which Goblinoid rights has largely focused in comic. It's hard to explore Goblinoid rights (and that of other "monstrous" peoples) when the main character identified with the cause is a genuinely despicable monster in his own right. So far, there have not been many major Goblinoid characters that have not been ethically... problematic, in ways that are not justifiable even by the egregious treatment of Goblinoids. Even Jirix and Oona don't provide some relief, being far less evil, but Jirix seems to have no issue with slavery or torture (see O'Chul's ordeal), and Oona fully intended to feed O'Chul and Lien to the Monster in Darkness.

It's sort of like my issue with Thanos from the movie series. A lot of people find him sympathetic and compelling... I find him even more monstrous and vile than the insane comic version. Comic Thanos probably can't be a better person; movie Thanos damn well should know better and has NO excuse. At this point, Redcloak is starting to shift that way for me, and it is a problem when your main in-comic advocate for why the use of designated racial enemies in fantasy is a problem, is as vile as those he fights. At some point, there needa to be a better alternative to show how Goblinoid equality might be feasible. I don't believe RedclOak has it in him to do that.

It also might be nice to know the Dark One's take on this mess. If he has matured since he first broke ties, there is a possibility of resolution. Otherwise... Same as for Redcloak. Atrocities against one's people only go so far, before they are nothing but excuses.

[Ruck]

It doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. One can make a reasonable case, in game terms, for the spell not being able to be tried on a given target more than once per casting. But if it could be tried on a given target more than once (e.g. "keep trying until it succeeds or we run out of tries"), it's a lot harder to justify being able to switch from A to B but not back to A.

If I had to put it strictly to the rules as they've appeared in this thread (since I don't know them), it would be "Redcloak casts Implosion, they banter while he concentrates for a round (since talking is a free action), and Minrah interrupts before he finishes."

People have said that #826 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html) indicates Implosion happens instantaneously, but I don't agree-- we don't know how much time passes between panels.

[Fyraltari]

Sadly there really is no "new normal" here... Read up on past elections if you want to reaf about ridiculous mudslinging and "think of the women and children" levels of rhetorical garbage. The Interwebs and social media simply make this whole wretched mess that much more immediate and in one's face... and thus so much harder to avoid. Plus stuff like accusations that group A eats babies or something is a longstanding means by which atrocities against group A are justified (often retroactively and often not an intentional falsehood. It's entirely possible to believe one's own propoganda, which is terrifying in itself).

I admit, it troubles and frustrates me that Redcloak is the main narrative lens through which Goblinoid rights has largely focused in comic. It's hard to explore Goblinoid rights (and that of other "monstrous" peoples) when the main character identified with the cause is a genuinely despicable monster in his own right. So far, there have not been many major Goblinoid characters that have not been ethically... problematic, in ways that are not justifiable even by the egregious treatment of Goblinoids. Even Jirix and Oona don't provide some relief, being far less evil, but Jirix seems to have no issue with slavery or torture (see O'Chul's ordeal), and Oona fully intended to feed O'Chul and Lien to the Monster in Darkness.

It's sort of like my issue with Thanos from the movie series. A lot of people find him sympathetic and compelling... I find him even more monstrous and vile than the insane comic version. Comic Thanos probably can't be a better person; movie Thanos damn well should know better and has NO excuse. At this point, Redcloak is starting to shift that way for me, and it is a problem when your main in-comic advocate for why the use of designated racial enemies in fantasy is a problem, is as vile as those he fights. At some point, there needa to be a better alternative to show how Goblinoid equality might be feasible. I don't believe RedclOak has it in him to do that.

It also might be nice to know the Dark One's take on this mess. If he has matured since he first broke ties, there is a possibility of resolution. Otherwise... Same as for Redcloak. Atrocities against one's people only go so far, before they are nothing but excuses.

Good points.


Maybe his niece will show up?

[arimareiji]

Sadly there really is no "new normal" here... Read up on past elections if you want to reaf about ridiculous mudslinging and "think of the women and children" levels of rhetorical garbage. The Interwebs and social media simply make this whole wretched mess that much more immediate and in one's face... and thus so much harder to avoid. Plus stuff like accusations that group A eats babies or something is a longstanding means by which atrocities against group A are justified (often retroactively and often not an intentional falsehood. It's entirely possible to believe one's own propoganda, which is terrifying in itself).

I admit, it troubles and frustrates me that Redcloak is the main narrative lens through which Goblinoid rights has largely focused in comic. It's hard to explore Goblinoid rights (and that of other "monstrous" peoples) when the main character identified with the cause is a genuinely despicable monster in his own right. So far, there have not been many major Goblinoid characters that have not been ethically... problematic, in ways that are not justifiable even by the egregious treatment of Goblinoids. Even Jirix and Oona don't provide some relief, being far less evil, but Jirix seems to have no issue with slavery or torture (see O'Chul's ordeal), and Oona fully intended to feed O'Chul and Lien to the Monster in Darkness.

It's sort of like my issue with Thanos from the movie series. A lot of people find him sympathetic and compelling... I find him even more monstrous and vile than the insane comic version. Comic Thanos probably can't be a better person; movie Thanos damn well should know better and has NO excuse. At this point, Redcloak is starting to shift that way for me, and it is a problem when your main in-comic advocate for why the use of designated racial enemies in fantasy is a problem, is as vile as those he fights. At some point, there needa to be a better alternative to show how Goblinoid equality might be feasible. I don't believe RedclOak has it in him to do that.

It also might be nice to know the Dark One's take on this mess. If he has matured since he first broke ties, there is a possibility of resolution. Otherwise... Same as for Redcloak. Atrocities against one's people only go so far, before they are nothing but excuses.

I've got a crazy hypothesis you might like: Maybe we've already seen an interesting example of the "good goblin" who has minimal baggage.

Read the bottom three panels of 826 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html), noting the appearance of the polymorphed spy who talks about judging a book by its cover. Now take a look at panel 2 of 707 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html), particularly the guy in line behind the hob who offers helpful information and wants to try to be good*. Maybe it's coincidence, and this is all crack - or maybe the elf leader (et al) wouldn't have died in 826 if he hadn't been so "awesome" in 707.

* - although he does himself no favors by saying Redcloak locked him up for roughing up "a new immigrant"

[justhalf]

Just noticed that the dwarf statue is likely the gate they are looking for, based on strip 276.

[Fyraltari]

Just noticed that the dwarf statue is likely the gate they are looking for, based on strip 276.

Landscape doesn’t match, it would disrespect Kraagor’s memory, it’s first thing anyone who think of (was evidenced by the gazillion people who keep proposing that) and, as Haley pointed out that wouldn’t fool Redcloak who pulled that trick way back when.

[RatElemental]

Are there any spells V would be likely to know that would potentially remove a high-level enemy cleric from the equation without actually killing him for a long enough period that he wouldn't be a factor when the Order confronts Xykon?

V is unlikely to know them, but they theoretically could know Temporal Stasis, Polymorph Any Object or Binding, all of which Redcloak has a pretty good chance of resisting but if he failed would remove him from play indefinitely until it was dispelled.

And once again commenting on something said more than half the thread ago.

[locksmith of lo]

EDIT: Fyraltari also makes a good point about it being part of another female character's (Haley's) backstory, though I think there's still far more Woman-Dies-To-Motivate-Woman than there is Man-Dies-To-Motivate-Woman. Can you name any in the latter category? Genuinely curious: Spider-Gwen is all I can come up with.

Sarah Connor and Kyle Reese in Terminator? :smallcool:

[dancrilis]

Accepting that interpretation for a bit, that'd be Roy's fault, not Durkon's. Moreover, Roy did explain his plan of talking to Redclaok after beating Team Evil in the tenth panel.

It would say they both had a hand in it - Roy should have followed up immediately and made sure that Durkon knew he was taking it seriously, Durkon should have talked to Roy before wandering off and sought to find common ground with his best friend before trying it with a Goblin he knows nothing about. Roy might have been able to point out that as long as Xykon was around Redcloak was unlikely to betray his years (decades, but Roy and Durkon don't know that) long ally (master, tool, hated enemy etc but Roy and Durkon don't know that either).
They could have done some roleplay with Roy in the role of Redcloak
Roycloak: What about my ally Xykon - he wants to rule the world (as he mentioned to Roy), are you willing to conceed that?
Durkon: No ...
Roycloak: Then we have nothing to talk about and I need to remove you as an obstacle to my evil plans.
Roy: You see how this might not be a good plan?


I'm pretty sure that once a soul is allowed into a Plane thay're not leaving.
This seems to be correct.



Also, Roy was almost denied entry into Celestia because he considered abandonning a comrade once. I doubt you'll find any child murderer in there.
You will of they are LG (and the right kind of LG rather then one of the other two types).



There are only 17 Outer Planes; Roy's alignment would have to match one of them, because you can't not have an alignment. The deva only got "first look" because Lawful Good was the alignment Roy declared himself to be. It was his goal, and the review was to see if he had really met that goal. If he didn't, that would mean he actually had some other alignment, in which case the powers-that-be on that plane would have been happy to have him. Generally speaking, a character who really is alignment X on the inside will be admitted to plane X with no problems, except in certain special circumstances (Eugene, for example).

Essentially it doesn't matter how you see yourself or how others see you you are going to end up in the afterlife of your alignment*.

*Babies are different they go with their mother's alignment (so Kudzu better hope that he doesn't die before he forms his own morality).

[Taojnhy]

Divine Power doesn't make you grow. It could, however, be Enlarge Person, from Strength domain lvl 1. But that doesn't explain Thor's name being involved in the casting.


The thunderbolt design matches that of the hammer Durkon found in Thor's statue (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1154.html), but that wasn't Thor's hammer either. Thor has his hammer.

GW

This is not the first time we've seen Thor's Might being used (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0111.html).

[greenfunkman]

Oh Redcloak... I wanted you to be better than this.

*cries for the suffering of all the stick-verse-people*

[Taojnhy]

So, I don't recall off the top of my head, but was there any indication before this scene that Durkon was capable of such... pure, burning vitriol? Like, he was usually still pretty civil even with people he explicitly hates, like the vampire hijacking his body.

Or maybe this instance just seems more intense to me because the visual in panel 3(?) here disturbs me enough that I'm intentionally avoiding looking at it again.

I'd say that Durkon wasn't being particularly vitriolic; he simply called out RC on his utter hypocrisy and if there was an edge to it, I'd chalk that up to the agony he's undergoing.

[hamishspence]

You will of they are LG (and the right kind of LG rather then one of the other two types).



The whole "child murdering" thing is a strong indication that they are not "pure LG on the inside".

[dancrilis]

The whole "child murdering" thing is a strong indication that they are not "pure LG on the inside".

The whole having powers of a paladin thing likely means they are - even if they needed to undertake an atonement spell first to restore them.

[danielxcutter]

Rich said all of that actually happened so... well those are some unpleasant implications. I mean I can buy such adventurers existing, but paladins...? How does that even work, honestly?

[hroþila]

That works by not being something that happened often in the life of any individual paladin and by the implication that those paladins who transgressed did fall. And they may well have been barred from Celestia and other Good afterlives.

[HandofShadows]

The TF2 Pyro couldn't do a burn worse than that. And Durkon thought ahead and had backup waiting. :smallcool:

[Peelee]

The whole having powers of a paladin thing likely means they are - even if they needed to undertake an atonement spell first to restore them.

Yeah, and Roy was LG up to the point that the deva said nobody would blink if she kicked his file to the True Neutral afterlife based on much less. The alignment you demonstrate in life is clearly a more ballpark figure than the fine-tooth-comb determination they make in the afterlife (or at the very least, Celestia).

[BloodSquirrel]

Durkon negotiated for the wrong thing. He should have promised Redcloak that the gods will give The Dark One a major seat at the table in designing the next world, ensuring that goblins would get fair treatment.

Durkon's entire negotiation strategy was wrong from the start. He tried to persuade Redcloak that there is no scenario in which he can win. He should have instead opened with "Redcloak, you have already won. Your plan was to blackmail the gods into doing what The Dark One wants. Well, as it happens, TDO has something the other gods need, so they're already willing to give him what he wants, if he'll just talk to them."

I don't think that would have worked- Durkon would have very obviously been promising much more than he could possibly be delivering on, and even if Redcloak was merely reasonably skeptical instead of downright hostile and paranoid he wouldn't have believed it. And even if he did The Dark One probably wouldn't take lightly to being promised a major seat at the table, only to show up and have the rest of the Gods balk at it. There's also a major logical inconsistency there- if the deal is that TDO gets his say in designing the next world, then it's being taken for granted that this world is doomed, whereas the actual plan is to save this one.

No, his best chance would have been to just tell Redcloak that this matter was entirely above both of their heads, and that he should take the information that Durkon has to give him to TDO and get a line of communication, even if indirect, going between TDO and Thor.

Durkon's mistake is understandable, since he doesn't have access to all of the information that we do, but any plan that relies on Redcloak being reasonable and coming to a compromise was doomed to fail. What Durkon needed to do was find a way to take matters out of Redcloak's hands, and since for Redcloak's plan to work TDO will need to be able to talk to the other gods anyway, just telling him that "The other Gods want to talk to TDO, and as his high priest you're the only safe conduit to start from" might actually work, since it doesn't require Redcloak to give anything up out of the gate.

Of course, this does require that The Dark One is more sane that Redcloak, which may not be true. But TDO is as impossible to work with as Redcloak is, then Thor's whole plan is doomed anyway, and they really will have to wait (or try to engineer) the rise of another God with a new color.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, and Roy was LG up to the point that the deva said nobody would blink if she kicked his file to the True Neutral afterlife based on much less. The alignment you demonstrate in life is clearly a more ballpark figure than the fine-tooth-comb determination they make in the afterlife (or at the very least, Celestia).

Nitpick.OS activated

The deva said her superiors wouldn’t blink if she sent him to the Neutral Good afterlife; the TN afterlife line was if he hadn’t went back for Elan.

[dancrilis]

Yeah, and Roy was LG up to the point that the deva said nobody would blink if she kicked his file to the True Neutral afterlife based on much less. The alignment you demonstrate in life is clearly a more ballpark figure than the fine-tooth-comb determination they make in the afterlife (or at the very least, Celestia).

That is not how I read this.


The deva only got "first look" because Lawful Good was the alignment Roy declared himself to be. It was his goal, and the review was to see if he had really met that goal. If he didn't, that would mean he actually had some other alignment, in which case the powers-that-be on that plane would have been happy to have him.

[Dion]

Rich said all of that actually happened so... well those are some unpleasant implications. I mean I can buy such adventurers existing, but paladins...? How does that even work, honestly?

Two reasons:

(1) the gods don’t care, and
(2) the gods don’t care.

Redcloak is actively working to correct the first problem, and he may succeed. I doubt a solution exists for the second problem.

[Dragonus45]

Just noticed that the dwarf statue is likely the gate they are looking for, based on strip 276.
I do expect there to be a twist to it, some variety of "Kraagor was a barbarian, not stupid. I made his dungeons as strong and cunning as he was." But that ain't it. To easy, already done.



Rich said all of that actually happened so... well those are some unpleasant implications. I mean I can buy such adventurers existing, but paladins...? How does that even work, honestly?

Hmmm, it's a it unpopular to say but the reality is most of RC's village were legit military targets in an ongoing war. They were mostly armed members of a community harboring the high priest of a very active evil god planning looking to use a ritual the use of which literally ends the world. The problem is that very deliberate attack on an unarmed civilian child fleeing for her life. That right there is gross and evil, but don't equate it with the entire attack because they aren't the same. And for alignment in a larger sense? I'm sure innocent goblins might have been caught up in the fighting as well, and that's a Paladin Paddlin from The 12 for sure. The kind of thing they specifically are supposed to be above as exemplars of specific LG concepts that might not entirely apply to just every day LG people in a war, and while the gods don't actually get to decide the big questions like "What is Good" and "What is Lawful" they do get to decide who they personally endorse and who they take power from. I know it wasn't relevant to RC's story who fell and who didn't but it would be nice for the rest of us to have that to point to for reference in these conversations. There is arguably a lot more to say, but the story of a young child living in a harsh area who had his life shaped by a potentially necessary but certainly indiscriminate strike by a dominant nation which shaped his life and lead to him becoming a high priest of his god attempting to use a weapon of literal world ending power to enforce his vengeance on the world has a lot of parallels and pit traps for forum rules if I wanted to go into detail about real life standards for what is or isn't a legit target in war.

[Fyraltari]

I just thought of something. We know from Roy’s interview that whoever gets into Celestia is decided based on THE BOOK. But we know from Miko’s fall that whichever Paladin falls is decided by the Gods. If the people in the South, by and large don’t believe that killing wanton goblins is a Fallable offense then neither will the Twelve.

[Peelee]

Nitpick.OS activated

The deva said her superiors wouldn’t blink if she sent him to the Neutral Good afterlife; the TN afterlife line was if he hadn’t went back for Elan.
Fair, my bad.

That is not how I read this.

Except that still doesn't account for how there is clearly already a system in place that pegs your alignment in life - magical spells can detect alignment (that they can be fooled is irrelevant, as they still must show some alignment without extraneous factors) and certain classes require certain alignments to maintain their powers or progression. So at all times the universe supposedly knows your alignment. However, if that were accurate, the review process would be wholly unnecessary. We can also tell that the process isn't to differentiate between Lawful Good and Sorta-Lawful Good but Sorta-Neutral Good, do-you-go-to-Celestia-or-Arcadia cases, as the deva talked about passing Roy to Neutral Good or even True Neutral, which are major shifts.

Thr only reason that system would need to be in place despite the fact that the universe already has a sorting mechanism that can be detected is because the universal sorting system is very rough and does not keep moment-to-moment accuracy.

Based on what we saw of Roy's review, do you really think that, had Miko died if a heart attack instead of killing Shojo, Miko would have been accepted into Celestia despite how she acted on the Material Plane? Cause I sure as hell don't.

Or Gin-Jun, if he had a heart attack before he struck at O-Chul?

[The MunchKING]

It is almost certainly a Righteous Might reskin, perhaps with a bit of extra flavor added on.

I thought the normal version of Righteous Might even explicitly SAID that most clerics named it after their God.


I do not know whether this has been mentioned anywhere, but there is a deep, painful irony on Redcloak's actions here.
Simply put,
if Durkon had actually died from Redcloak's little gambit here, he would have died the EXACT SAME WAY that the Dark One himself died: peacefully arriving to attempt negotations but viciously murdered in the middle of the peace talks because his opposite number never actually respected him. The only reason he didn't is because he (rightfully) planned for a possible betrayal. I am wondering if that will ever occur to either RD or his god...

I didn't think of that. Yeah, that's some theming right there.


Following that to its logical conclusion:
If RC had killed Durkon then Durkon would have ascended into godhood of his own pantheon with his own quiddity. I’m guessing orange. :)

Only if the Dwarves massacred all the Goblins they could find in Durkon's Holy Name. Otherwise he'd just ascend to Thor's new Evil smiting God-buddy. :D

[Gurgeh]

I just thought of something. We know from Roy’s interview that whoever gets into Celestia is decided based on THE BOOK. But we know from Miko’s fall that whichever Paladin falls is decided by the Gods. If the people in the South, by and large don’t believe that killing wanton goblins is a Fallable offense then neither will the Twelve.
Being a Paladin is not the same as being Lawful Good. It's entirely possible for a Paladin to fall and yet still be considered LG and get into the LG afterlife.

[Fyraltari]

Being a Paladin is not the same as being Lawful Good. It's entirely possible for a Paladin to fall and yet still be considered LG and get into the LG afterlife.

I didn’t say otherwise?

[Dausuul]

Let me be clear here: there's a difference between saying he's not evil (for the record, he is) or a bad person in general (for the record, he is) who sold his soul for power in a misguided attempt at seeing a sunk-cost fallacy to the end (for the record, he is) and saying that the gods and world deserve him for how they've treated the goblins (for the record, they do).
My objection to this is to the idea that "the world" deserves him. This idea of collective guilt is the very thing that got Redcloak's village slaughtered. It's just another way to dress up evil, this time in a cloak of false righteousness. It looks like justice, but only from a distance.

"The world" doesn't deserve anything, good or bad. There are some people in the world who have richly earned retaliation from the likes of Redcloak; the crusaders in the Sapphire Guard, the adventurers who go around slaughtering goblins, the gods who set up the whole system in the first place. There are also a lot of other people in the world who deserve no such thing.

And, funny thing, it's the second group that seems to be taking it on the chin here. The Sapphire Guard mostly just died, had a moment of glory when Soon raised them, and went off to their extraplanar petting zoo. (The one paladin who really suffered at Redcloak's hands was O-Chul, whose whole purpose in joining the SG was to make them change their ways.) The adventurers are still going their merry murderhoboing way. The gods had to attend a long boring meeting and adjust their schedule a bit. But the innocent civilians of Azure City are enduring lives of slavery and torture under the heel of the government Redcloak set up.

[hamishspence]

Being a Paladin is not the same as being Lawful Good. It's entirely possible for a Paladin to fall and yet still be considered LG and get into the LG afterlife.

And conversely, it's entirely possible for a Paladin to not Fall, and yet still only qualify for Arcadia (LN with LG tendencies or LG with LN tendencies afterlife) rather than Celestia (plain LG).

[Frozenstep]

I admit, it troubles and frustrates me that Redcloak is the main narrative lens through which Goblinoid rights has largely focused in comic. It's hard to explore Goblinoid rights (and that of other "monstrous" peoples) when the main character identified with the cause is a genuinely despicable monster in his own right. So far, there have not been many major Goblinoid characters that have not been ethically... problematic, in ways that are not justifiable even by the egregious treatment of Goblinoids. Even Jirix and Oona don't provide some relief, being far less evil, but Jirix seems to have no issue with slavery or torture (see O'Chul's ordeal), and Oona fully intended to feed O'Chul and Lien to the Monster in Darkness.

I think it makes for a better, more challenging story. There's not really a question about whether Goblinoid rights are deserved or not. The question is whether you can make something of a movement with a core principle you agree with, but with a method you're not happy with. I've seen that come up in real life, where people dismiss a movement with "I don't like their methods, I can't support them", because for them the issue isn't personal, and they can feel free to reject it until it comes wrapped up in a bow just like how they want it.

Of course a mass-murderer is pretty extreme, the issue is also pretty extreme (literally divinity-approved genocide). And the thing is...the movement is on the heels of another movement that might have been better (not sure if it's the whole truth). The Dark One's movement failed. Expecting the movement that shows up next to try the same (if we're not being lied to) nonviolent solution is kind of silly.

[hamishspence]

Hmmm, it's a it unpopular to say but the reality is most of RC's village were legit military targets in an ongoing war. They were mostly armed members of a community harboring the high priest of a very active evil god planning looking to use a ritual the use of which literally ends the world. The problem is that very deliberate attack on an unarmed civilian child fleeing for her life.

No, the problem is the attack on everyone other than the High Priest. None of them know anything about The Plan.


Whether or not some of them lost a few class abilities does not change the fact that Redcloak suffered an injustice at their hands, one that shaped his entire adult life. That was the point of the scene.

Redcloak was an "armed minor priest of the Dark One" - but the paladins attacking him at that time, as well as his family members, was an injustice.

[danielxcutter]

To be blunt, being a paladin means keeping much stricter standards than just being LG. If I was a DM, I very well might have argued that Roy would have fallen for abandoning Elan, or maybe some of his other deeds that weren’t exactly kosher LG. But I still think he’s LG; very few people dispute that he’s good and he’s certainly shown a Lawful sense of duty more than once.

In short: being a Paladin is only a subset of LG.

[Dausuul]

I admit, it troubles and frustrates me that Redcloak is the main narrative lens through which Goblinoid rights has largely focused in comic. It's hard to explore Goblinoid rights (and that of other "monstrous" peoples) when the main character identified with the cause is a genuinely despicable monster in his own right. So far, there have not been many major Goblinoid characters that have not been ethically... problematic, in ways that are not justifiable even by the egregious treatment of Goblinoids. Even Jirix and Oona don't provide some relief, being far less evil, but Jirix seems to have no issue with slavery or torture (see O'Chul's ordeal), and Oona fully intended to feed O'Chul and Lien to the Monster in Darkness.
I very much agree. I've had the same issue. I miss Right-Eye. That said, Right-Eye was also not what the cause of goblinoid rights needed; his solution was just to accommodate himself to the world as it existed. What I really miss is the combination of Right-Eye and Redcloak: Redcloak had the zeal for change, Right-Eye had the wisdom to distinguish justice from vengeance.


It also might be nice to know the Dark One's take on this mess. If he has matured since he first broke ties, there is a possibility of resolution. Otherwise... Same as for Redcloak. Atrocities against one's people only go so far, before they are nothing but excuses.
The thing about the Dark One--just like Thor and Loki, he is shaped by the beliefs of his followers. He was created in a crusade for vengeance, so he is a deity of hate and vengeance, and as long as his goblin worshipers follow Redcloak's lead, I expect he will stay that way. But if the goblins' vision of him changes, he himself could change.

It's hard to see how such change could be enacted in the short time remaining, unfortunately. But maybe...

[Dragonus45]

No, the problem is the attack on everyone other than the High Priest. None of them know anything about The Plan.
They don't need to personally know the plan to be loyal armed retainers of the holder of the RC, who is the plan. That's called compartmentalization.




Redcloak was an "armed minor priest of the Dark One" - but the paladins attacking him at that time, as well as his family members, was an injustice.
The injustice done to his little sister was tragic, but if RC himself had taken a spear to the neck that day he would 100% have been a legit target as an armed enemy cleric, I.E. a potential bearer of the Mantle and ender of the world.

[Peelee]

To be blunt, being a paladin means keeping much stricter standards than just being LG. If I was a DM, I very well might have argued that Roy would have fallen for abandoning Elan, or maybe some of his other deeds that weren’t exactly kosher LG. But I still think he’s LG; very few people dispute that he’s good and he’s certainly shown a Lawful sense of duty more than once.

In short: being a Paladin is only a subset of LG.
And? Again, Miko and Gin-Jun are great examples of paladins (who, as you yourself admit, are held to even higher standards than merely LG) who fail to uphold even the standards of LG, despite still being paladins.

They don't need to personally know the plan to be loyal armed retainers of the holder of the RC, who is the plan.
They don't even know about the existence of a plan, to the best of our knowledge.

[HandofShadows]

Durkon negotiated for the wrong thing. He should have promised Redcloak that the gods will give The Dark One a major seat at the table in designing the next world, ensuring that goblins would get fair treatment.

The Dark One isn't going to make it to the next world. He doesn't have nearly enough followers/power stored up to survive until a new world is created. The Dark One either lives with this world or he dies from starvation after it's destroyed.

[arimareiji]

Hmmm, it's a it unpopular to say but the reality is most of RC's village were legit military targets in an ongoing war.

"Legit military targets" is a Lawfulness question that is going to have more answers than you have hypothetical worlds. In one world that might be strictly limited to "someone on the verge of single-handedly annihilating an entire country"; in another that might be expanded to "anyone who theoretically contributes to the enemy's ability to wage war now or in the future, all the way down to a one-year-old son of a farmer whose crops feed soldiers". Both could have results that are anything but Good.

[danielxcutter]

And? Again, Miko and Gin-Jun are great examples of paladins (who, as you yourself admit, are held to even higher standards than merely LG) who fail to uphold even the standards of LG, despite still being paladins.
Hence my problem: what the heck, world?


They don't even know about the existence of a plan, to the best of our knowledge.

Are there real-life analogies that don’t go against the forum rules? I suppose if you put “terrorist” in place of “Bearer” it works. Real-life soldiers/police/whatever should avoid civilian
casualties if possible, right? I mean it’s arguably worse here because at least in our world we don’t use swords to do that.

[BloodSquirrel]

The injustice done to his little sister was tragic, but if RC himself had taken a spear to the neck that day he would 100% have been a legit target as an armed enemy cleric, I.E. a potential bearer of the Mantle and ender of the world.

I feel like this is a major disconnect that people have. The Dark One is an evil god, and it's been consistently demonstrated in this comic that "evil" isn't just some arbitrary team name. The Dark One was born from the bloodshed caused by a goblinoid army engaging in a massive, indiscriminate slaughter. He has shown no sign of disapproval at any of his follower's evil methods.

Yes, it's tragic that some of the goblins in Redcloak's village may have been following him out of ignorance, and were killed despite not being evil themselves. Yes, the SG should have shown more restraint when it came to non-combatants who could have been sorted out later. But the raid itself was still fully justified, and any goblins who knowingly defended the previous bearer were valid targets. The blood of the innocents who were killed that day belongs just as much on the hands of TDO and his clerics who dragged them into their war with the SG.

[Peelee]

Hence my problem: what the heck, world?
That's why I like my headcanon. It fits quite nicely.

Are there real-life analogies that don’t go against the forum rules? I suppose if you put “terrorist” in place of “Bearer” it works. Real-life soldiers/police/whatever should avoid civilian
casualties if possible, right? I mean it’s arguably worse here because at least in our world we don’t use swords to do that.
Don't need real-world when there's Star Wars! (That holds true for everything, btw.)

Unpopular opinion, Alderaan was an acceptable military target for harboring a traitor to the Empire who was actively engaged in the war effort against the Empire - sure, there were kids in the planet and that was bad, but the rest were acceptable targets. There, we now have Dragonus' argument reframed in a still-fictional but more familiar territory.

[Dragonus45]

And? Again, Miko and Gin-Jun are great examples of paladins (who, as you yourself admit, are held to even higher standards than merely LG) who fail to uphold even the standards of LG, despite still being paladins.

We don't get to see Gin-Jun across his life, and his actions near the end make me think he was cruising for a falling and a boot to a non LG afterlife near the end, but we didn't see enough of his life before he started having his "I can't find The Mantle breakdown" for me to actually judge much about him other then he was a bit of a war hawk which isn't itself inherent yo any alignment. I don't know the literal weight of his soul which is what the deva are for anyways. Miko? My first thought when asked was that she would go to the LG afterlife for sure. For all her being an judgmental jerk I'm still not sure that I could translate her being kind of bad at being a person to being a bad person. I think it might be relevant to remember what was said to Roy, trying matters and for all her faults of personality and judgement she honestly tried to go through life doing what was right as she limitedly understood it. Unlike Gin-Jun actually, who I think living a life of trying to use technicalities in Good and Evil and bits of sophistry to game the system so he could achieve his goals. He put his destination before his journey near the end there. That said, with Miko the lack of her even in the background of Roy's afterlife sections might be a sign she really did balance out in life to LN after her fall. I would bet if she died of a heart attack before that it would have been different though.



They don't even know about the existence of a plan, to the best of our knowledge.

Compartmentalization

"Legit military targets" is a Lawfulness question that is going to have more answers than you have hypothetical worlds. In one world that might be strictly limited to "someone on the verge of single-handedly annihilating an entire country"; in another that might be expanded to "anyone who theoretically contributes to the enemy's ability to wage war now or in the future, all the way down to a one-year-old son of a farmer whose crops feed soldiers". Both could have results that are anything but Good.

I agree with this statement just about entirely, and sadly while I think it is hypothetically possible to get into the nuance of the issue the potential for infractions, and morally justified shenanigans, is just a bit too high for there to be a meaningful discussion. For these purposes I'm sticking to armed and potentially dangerous combatants and their leadership as its safe and relevant to the discussion at hand.

[Fyraltari]

About wether the other goblins knew of the Plan, all we know for sure is that the little ones didn’t. The adults might have known.

[Emmit Svenson]

That is not compliant with the 3.5 description of Wind Walk (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm).

That is when someone chooses to change between gas and solid as part of the spell, Durkon dismissing on her is different - that would be 'no more magic you are solid immediately'.

As dancrilis points out, all spell effects would end instantly if the spell were dismissed, and part of the spell DaveMCW decided not to quote reads, "...you can dismiss the spell, and you can even dismiss it for individual wind walkers and not others."

[Peelee]

We don't get to see Gin-Jun across his life, and his actions near the end make me think he was cruising for a falling and a boot to a non LG afterlife near the end, but we didn't see enough of his life before he started having his "I can't find The Mantle breakdown" for me to actually judge much about him other then he was a bit of a war hawk which isn't itself inherent yo any alignment. I don't know the literal weight of his soul which is what the deva are for anyways. Miko? My first thought when asked was that she would go to the LG afterlife for sure. For all her being an judgmental jerk I'm still not sure that I could translate her being kind of bad at being a person to being a bad person. I think it might be relevant to remember what was said to Roy, trying matters and for all her faults of personality and judgement she honestly tried to go through life doing what was right as she limitedly understood it. Unlike Gin-Jun actually, who I think living a life of trying to use technicalities in Good and Evil and bits of sophistry to game the system so he could achieve his goals. He put his destination before his journey near the end there. That said, with Miko the lack of her even in the background of Roy's afterlife sections might be a sign she really did balance out in life to LN after her fall. I would bet if she died of a heart attack before that it would have been different though.



Compartmentalization

Miko would be a great Paladin for St. Cuthbert. She has zero respect for life, she was all about retribution, anyone she thought did wrong was guilty until proven innocent, etc. etc. She's a model LN avenger.

As for compartmentalization, see Alderaan.

[hamishspence]

About wether the other goblins knew of the Plan, all we know for sure is that the little ones didn’t. The adults might have known.

Redcloak, a cleric, still needed to put on the mantle to know of The Plan. I doubt very much that anyone who wasn't a cleric, knew.


Miko would be a great Paladin for St. Cuthbert. She has zero respect for life, she was all about retribution, anyone she thought did wrong was guilty until proven innocent, etc. etc. She's a model LN avenger.

St Cuthbert would be somewhat underwhelmed I think - his Dragon Magazine article suggested a somewhat more nuanced attitude to retribution, and more respect for the concept of redemption, than Miko showed.

[arimareiji]

I feel like this is a major disconnect that people have. The Dark One is an evil god, and it's been consistently demonstrated in this comic that "evil" isn't just some arbitrary team name. The Dark One was born from the bloodshed caused by a goblinoid army engaging in a massive, indiscriminate slaughter. He has shown no sign of disapproval at any of his follower's evil methods.

Yes, it's tragic that some of the goblins in Redcloak's village may have been following him out of ignorance, and were killed despite not being evil themselves. Yes, the SG should have shown more restraint when it came to non-combatants who could have been sorted out later. But the raid itself was still fully justified, and any goblins who knowingly defended the previous bearer were valid targets. The blood of the innocents who were killed that day belongs just as much on the hands of TDO and his clerics who dragged them into their war with the SG.

"Evil" is a word easily applied to actions (sometimes in error, sometimes not). It's often misapplied to people and especially to groups, most especially if that designation is used as a rationalization.

[Peelee]

St Cuthbert would be somewhat underwhelmed I think - his Dragon Magazine article suggested a somewhat more nuanced attitude to retribution, and more respect for the concept of redemption, than Miko showed.

Even the PHB portrayed him as interested in Justice rather than retribution, but he was also the only one I could think of off the cuff and I figured "Eh, close enough".

[Rockphed]

We haven't got much perspective from TDO, but "eye for an eye" doesn't seem like it would be too far outside his wheelhouse.

People often complain about "eye for an eye", but it gets a bad rap. "An eye for an eye" is justice (albeit of the sort Durkon denigrated 2 strips ago), not revenge, since you only get to hurt the other person as much as they hurt you. People often use it to mean something more like what is described in The Untouchables: "They pull a knife, you pull a gun. They send one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the Chicago way." And I imagine that The Dark One would love to follow The Chicago Way.

[Dausuul]

As dancrilis points out, all spell effects would end instantly if the spell were dismissed, and part of the spell DaveMCW decided not to quote reads, "...you can dismiss the spell, and you can even dismiss it for individual wind walkers and not others."
So, to summarize what happened (at least as I see it):

1. Redcloak's turn: He casts implosion. Per the spell, he has to concentrate for a round in order to actually kill anyone. He starts concentrating on Durkon.
2. Durkon's turn: He dismisses wind walk on Minrah, allowing her to skip the usual 5-round transition from mist to solid.
3. Minrah's turn: She uses a property of the hammer to cast righteous might as a swift action, then attacks Redcloak, breaking his concentration and ending implosion.

This means the "fizzle" here indicates a spell ending due to broken concentration, rather than a spell interrupted in casting, and Durkon's "battle damage" is a sign of pain and suffering rather than actual hit point loss. (It's also possible that the hammer strike throws off a lightning AoE and Durkon is showing the effects of that. However, the marks in the final panel match the marks he developed in panel 3, so I lean toward the pain and suffering explanation.)

[Dragonus45]

Miko would be a great Paladin for St. Cuthbert. She has zero respect for life, she was all about retribution, anyone she thought did wrong was guilty until proven innocent, etc. etc. She's a model LN avenger.

Cuthbert himself swaps back and forth between LN and LG across different editions and publications, and Miko also feels like she rode a line between LG and LN most of her life and just had the one big screwup to get her booted down to LN near the end when she finally lost her balance on the teetering line. I think honestly worth nothing, is when she wandered into the final fight and thought the gate was about to be lost she unhesitatingly did what she thought was right even when it cost her her life. Sure she was seriously wrong about what the right thing to do was there, like she was for most of her life, but she tried right to her last moment.



As for compartmentalization, see Alderaan.

Not even a remotely equivalent comparison.

[Fyraltari]

I feel like this is a major disconnect that people have. The Dark One is an evil god, and it's been consistently demonstrated in this comic that "evil" isn't just some arbitrary team name. The Dark One was born from the bloodshed caused by a goblinoid army engaging in a massive, indiscriminate slaughter. He has shown no sign of disapproval at any of his follower's evil methods.

Yes, it's tragic that some of the goblins in Redcloak's village may have been following him out of ignorance, and were killed despite not being evil themselves. Yes, the SG should have shown more restraint when it came to non-combatants who could have been sorted out later. But the raid itself was still fully justified
Agreed.

and any goblins who knowingly defended the previous bearer were valid targets.
That’d be none then. If anything, the Bearer tried to defend the other goblins, not the other way around.

The blood of the innocents who were killed that day belongs just as much on the hands of TDO and his clerics who dragged them into their war with the SG.
**** that noise. The blood of the innocent is on the hands of those who killed them and those who ordered them to be killed. No one else’s.

That's why I like my headcanon. It fits quite nicely.

Don't need real-world when there's Star Wars! (That holds true for everything, btw.)

Unpopular opinion, Alderaan was an acceptable military target for harboring a traitor to the Empire who was actively engaged in the war effort against the Empire - sure, there were kids in the planet and that was bad, but the rest were acceptable targets. There, we now have Dragonus' argument reframed in a still-fictional but more familiar territory.
You know it’s surprisingly rare to see you start a drift to Star Wars rather than jump on the wagon.

Redcloak, a cleric, still needed to put on the mantle to know of The Plan. I doubt very much that anyone who wasn't a cleric, knew.
[spoiler]He was ordained a Cleric a few minutes before the attack. If they were going to tell him, that would probably have waited for the evening or the day after.[/quote]

[Peelee]

Not even a remotely equivalent comparison.

Other than the size of the village, why not?


You know itÂ’s surprisingly rare to see you start a drift to Star Wars rather than jump on the wagon.

If I started it as often as I'd want to every thread on your forum would turn into a Star Wars thread. :smalltongue:

[danielxcutter]

I suppose knowing that TDO really is an Evil god might make some difference, but even then paladins still have at-will unlimited uses of Detect Evil, don’t they? Even the “sight and smite” paladin types act better than the SG did.

Also @Peelee, what was that headcanon again?

[The_Weirdo]

I think it makes for a better, more challenging story. There's not really a question about whether Goblinoid rights are deserved or not. The question is whether you can make something of a movement with a core principle you agree with, but with a method you're not happy with. I've seen that come up in real life, where people dismiss a movement with "I don't like their methods, I can't support them", because for them the issue isn't personal, and they can feel free to reject it until it comes wrapped up in a bow just like how they want it.

Of course a mass-murderer is pretty extreme, the issue is also pretty extreme (literally divinity-approved genocide). And the thing is...the movement is on the heels of another movement that might have been better (not sure if it's the whole truth). The Dark One's movement failed. Expecting the movement that shows up next to try the same (if we're not being lied to) nonviolent solution is kind of silly.

That. All of that.

It's extremely easy and convenient to dismiss a movement for basic equality on "oh, I don't agree with their methods" if you are not among those that got the short end of the stick. Except, in this case, asking nicely did not work, now, did it? They tried to ask nicely and look at where it got them.


As for compartmentalization, see Alderaan.

We can't, it's been blown to smithereens.

But don't worry, the guy that did this got redemption. A redemption about which I'm sure the souls of the people from there are very happy...

[Peelee]

I suppose knowing that TDO really is an Evil god might make some difference, but even then paladins still have at-will unlimited uses of Detect Evil, don’t they? Even the “sight and smite” paladin types act better than the SG did.

Also @Peelee, what was that headcanon again?

The short version is that while alive, the universe just makes quick and dirty calls on what alignment you are, so barring super-clear-cut shifts, it'll just keep assuming you are what it says on your character sheet. When dead, a much more intensive spotlight is shined on you and the actual, more accurate call is made (also this probably only happens in the upper and mid planes, as u doubt the ones down below are quite so picky. Kind of like a mirrored electronegativity chart - not a perfect analogy, but good enough).


We can't, it's been blown to smithereens.

But don't worry, the guy that did this got redemption. A redemption about which I'm sure the souls of the people from there are very happy...
When did Grand Moff Tarkin get redeemed?

[danielxcutter]

I don’t think anybody knows much about goblin inequality - especially not the first moment that started Redcloak off - but Durkon probably knows a bit more now and I think that might start a train of thought in the Order as well. Roy could be reminded about the first adventurer party he and Durkon were in and I think V would very much be willing to entertain the concept of separating Redcloak and his actions from judging the entire race.

[Fyraltari]

If I started it as often as I'd want to every thread on your forum would turn into a Star Wars thread. :smalltongue:
It wouldn’t change anything, then?

The short version is that while alive, the universe just makes quick and dirty calls on what alignment you are, so barring, super-clear-cut shifts, it'll just keep assuming you are what it says on your character sheet. When dead, a much more intensive spotlight is shined on you and the actual, more accurate call is made (also this probably only happens in the upper and mid planes, as u doubt the ones down below are quite so picky. Kind of like a mirrored electronegativity chart - not a perfect analogy, but good enough).

If the planes need souls of the right alignment to function, they’d have to be just as picky as a matter of practicality rather than morality.

[Dragonus45]

Other than the size of the village, why not?

First off, I'm not accepting an argument that size and scale are irrelevant. There is a real palpable difference between a military action against a single village with the risk of some civilian casualties and using a super weapon with a 100% casualty rate on an entire populated PLANET

Second, the framing is entirely different. We aren't talking about a rebel senator and some potential sympathizers working against an all encompassing Evil Empire. The bearer of the Mantle is a literal existential threat to all creation, an agent of a Dark God, and armed warriors working under him are in a direct chain of command to that whether they know it or not.

Also, that framing also creates an issue of putting words in my mouth because I never said that the deliberate killing of noncombatants and civilians was ok in the first place, just that noncombatants getting hurt is at best a potential and often reality of any military action ever. For us, knowing where it might ding a person on alignment often needs more context then we have more often then not.


That. All of that.
It's extremely easy and convenient to dismiss a movement for basic equality on "oh, I don't agree with their methods" if you are not among those that got the short end of the stick. Except, in this case, asking nicely did not work, now, did it? They tried to ask nicely and look at where it got them.


You know what the best part of ideas and causes and movements all being kind of separate is? I can look at the cause of goblin equality and then look at RC and say, "Yea blowing up the entire world to suit your personal ego trip over taking an actually realistic but difficult solution but it would mean your were wrong is dumb and your a bad person. Nothing you do will likely actually create long term positive change. I'll support someone else, that Jirex guy seemed less of a genocidal megalomaniac." Because the ideas RC claims to represent aren't unique to him, and he isn't the only option in the world for how to move them forward. Sure yuck. That other guy is, as far as we have been shown, an unrepentant slaver. Well, it's a step up I guess. Which says a lot about RC and how far gone he is. Because you are right, they did try asking nicely and Red Cloak decided to blow them up instead.

[The_Weirdo]

When did Grand Moff Tarkin get redeemed?

Okay, fair. Sorry, replace "guy that did it" with "one of the generals involved", I suppose.

Eh, you know me. You can easily imagine what I'd see done to each and every last Stormtrooper over what was done to Alderaan.

[arimareiji]

So, to summarize what happened (at least as I see it):

1. Redcloak's turn: He casts implosion. Per the spell, he has to concentrate for a round in order to actually kill anyone. He starts concentrating on Durkon.
2. Durkon's turn: He dismisses wind walk on Minrah.
3. Minrah's turn: She uses a property of the hammer to cast righteous might as a swift action, then attacks Redcloak, breaking his concentration and ending implosion.

This means the "fizzle" here indicates a spell ending due to broken concentration, rather than a spell interrupted in casting, and Durkon's "battle damage" is a sign of pain and suffering rather than actual hit point loss. (It's also possible that the hammer strike throws off a lightning AoE and Durkon is showing the effects of that. However, the marks in the final panel match the marks he developed in panel 3, so I lean toward the pain and suffering explanation.)

Thank you for hashing it out, especially since I'm firmly in the camp of not needing every element (i.e. Durkon's pain or visual battle damage) to reflect pure D&D game mechanics. Blame it on the only DM I've ever wholly subscribed to, who's big on "flavor" as well as realism.

Also: Talking is definitely a free action, since Durkon was able to dismiss both wind walk and Redcloak in epic Haley-style (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html). (^_~)

[BloodSquirrel]

"Evil" is a word easily applied to actions (sometimes in error, sometimes not). It's often misapplied to people and especially to groups, most especially if that designation is used as a rationalization.

That is, quite frankly, a very Tarquin-esque dodge. I'm talking about slavery, torture, mass murder, and brutal oppression. Those are the things that TDO's worshipers engage in. That's what "evil" means.

We've seen this song and dance in the comic before, right before Tarquin had hundreds of slaves crucified and set on fire and Malack revealed his plan for mass blood sacrifices. The Dark One is an evil god. He might be perfectly happy to tell you about his noble intentions and about all of the mean things that those dirty paladins have done to him and his followers, but his end goal is not to live in peace next to you, it's to take everything he can from you, kill you, and enslave your children.

The Sapphire Guard is entire in the right in trying to eliminate any clerics of his that they come across.

[Peelee]

Okay, fair. Sorry, replace "guy that did it" with "one of the generals involved", I suppose.

Eh, you know me. You can easily imagine what I'd see done to each and every last Stormtrooper over what was done to Alderaan.

Yes, I am indeed aware that you are in favor of collective punishment.

[The_Weirdo]

That is, quite frankly, a very Tarquin-esque dodge. I'm talking about slavery, torture, mass murder, and brutal oppression. Those are the things that TDO's worshipers engage in. That's what "evil" means.

We've seen this song and dance in the comic before, right before Tarquin had hundreds of slaves crucified and set on fire and Malack revealed his plan for mass blood sacrifices. The Dark One is an evil god. He might be perfectly happy to tell you about his noble intentions and about all of the mean things that those dirty paladins have done to him and his followers, but his end goal is not to live in peace next to you, it's to take everything he can from you, kill you, and enslave your children.

The Sapphire Guard is entire in the right in trying to eliminate any clerics of his that they come across.

Two of those are also things that the Twelve Gods' worshippers engaged in. You know, the Lawful Good ones. And if you reduce what the Paladins did to "mean", you should reduce what Redcloak did to "mean" as well.


Yes, I am indeed aware that you are in favor of collective punishment.

Well, we by definition are not talking about innocent civilians here, yes?


a military action against a single village with the risk of some civilian casualties

Would you have said that if the targets were humans? Or someone you care about in the strip? How can you excoriate Redcloak for not caring about the innocents while having said that line?

[hamishspence]

a military action against a single village with the risk of some civilian casualties

Given that they were actively targeting obvious civilians, "risk of civilian casualties" kind of downplays what they were doing.

[Fyraltari]

First off, I'm not accepting an argument that size and scale are irrelevant. There is a real palpable difference between a military action against a single village with the risk of some civilian casualties and using a super weapon with a 100% casualty rate on an entire populated PLANET
They didn’t « risk civilian casualties ». The chief Paladin ordered his ilk to « exterminate the rest » that’s indefensible.


When did Grand Moff Tarkin get redeemed?
Wasn’t there a whole book about the gunner that ended with him stalling during the battle of Yavin so that Red Squadron could blow up the damn thing?

[danielxcutter]

Given that they were actively targeting obvious civilians, "risk of civilian casualties" kind of downplays what they were doing.

I am not surprised but I forget the specific parts where that happened, possibly because I never bought the books myself. You mean the part where at least one of the paladins was happy he got to use his Cleave feat or is there something else?

Also, honestly I dunno why they just didn’t send in some kind of high level rogue to do the job. I don’t really see how different sending in a sneaky class for a stealth kill is any worse in moral terms compared to sending in the paladins in, for this case.

[The_Weirdo]

They didn’t « risk civilian casualties ». The chief Paladin ordered his ilk to « exterminate the rest » that’s indefensible.

It's worse: it's something the paladins apparently should get a pass on, but Redcloak cannot.

[Dragonus45]

Given that they were actively targeting obvious civilians, "risk of civilian casualties" kind of downplays what they were doing.

Well yes, some of them did. That was a bad thing. There was also a significant number of armed goblins in the village as well, and I imagine it isn't always clear cut who is and isn't trying to kill you in a melee like that.

[hamishspence]

Wasn’t there a whole book about the gunner that ended with him stalling during the battle of Yavin so that Red Squadron could blow up the damn thing?

Yup, for the Legendsverse at least - Death Star. He was one of a whole ensemble cast though.

[BloodSquirrel]

That’d be none then. If anything, the Bearer tried to defend the other goblins, not the other way around.


As per the Giant's well-known quote, what we see is Redcloak's view of this story. We don't know how many of those other goblins knew that TDO was an evil god, and decided to shelter The Bearer there anyway. We don't know what kind of evil acts The Bearer and any of his other followers who were there might have engaged in because Redcloak doesn't care- it wouldn't matter to him if the entire village had performed a human sacrifice the previous day, because he doesn't even think about what goblins do to humans. It's only what humans do to goblins that matters to him.



**** that noise. The blood of the innocent is on the hands of those who killed them and those who ordered them to be killed. No one else’s.

No. If you put children on the front lines of a war, you are morally culpable for what happens to them. Blame is not a scare quantity- you don't get to jettison your own responsibility for them being there just because the other side was also morally culpable for being too overzealous.

[The_Weirdo]

No. If you put children on the front lines of a war, you are morally culpable for what happens to them. Blame is not a scare quantity- you don't get to jettison your own responsibility for them being there just because the other side was also morally culpable for being too overzealous.

I guess everywhere is a front line if you squint your eyes hard enough. And genocidal and too overzealous are two different things. I should know, I only got called one of them around here.

[arimareiji]

I agree with this statement just about entirely, and sadly while I think it is hypothetically possible to get into the nuance of the issue the potential for infractions, and morally justified shenanigans, is just a bit too high for there to be a meaningful discussion. For these purposes I'm sticking to armed and potentially dangerous combatants and their leadership as its safe and relevant to the discussion at hand.

Sorry I didn't see this earlier, and agreed - safest by far if (I believe) we agree that, generally speaking (no war pun intended), it's possible for law and good to be not only separate elements but also sometimes in tension with each other.

Plus, we don't have to look any farther than Miko for a very-non-real-world example. (^_~)


I guess everywhere is a front line if you squint your eyes hard enough.

If I ever decide to remedy my lack of nuance and excessive need to spell everything out, I've found a master.

[hroþila]

Well yes, some of them did. That was a bad thing. There was also a significant number of armed goblins in the village as well, and I imagine it isn't always clear cut who is and isn't trying to kill you in a melee like that.
They charged at literal children. One of them murdered a little girl who was alone in a cave away from the melee. "War is chaotic" just doesn't cut it here.

[Dragonus45]

They charged at literal children. One of them murdered a little girl who was alone in a cave away from the melee.

Yes, and? The fact that some of the paladins went to far and committed deliberate evil acts during the attack isn't in dispute and never was.

[The_Weirdo]

They charged at literal children. One of them murdered a little girl who was alone in a cave away from the melee. "War is chaotic" just doesn't cut it here.

I mean, hiding in a cave in your village is apparently a front line now?