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jokeaccount
2020-08-11, 09:00 AM
Small background:
We have been playing a campaign for some time now, starting at lvl 6 and are now level 17. I made a character with the goal of making a shadow pouncer, even though the DM has set some limitations as follows:
No tome of battle, no UA, no Incarnum, no Dragon magazine. Also Dimension Door ends your turn (i've heard some people allow swift actions or other after it).

Even with these limitations, I made a build that would work ok:
Rog4/Ftr6/ShadowWalker Template/Shadow Lord4/NoClassChosenYet2
I have the whole Two-Weapon fighting range and do 2 full-attacks using my Move and Standard actions using Boots of Swiftness and Dimension Door/Shadow Jump. I burn my swift action for Wraithstrike wand casts or Grave/Golem strikes.
The damage comes from 12 attacks with 2d6 SA + Craven + basic dmg.

The build went online super-mega late and after not much time it was crumbled to the ground. The reasons are many-fold:
1) We are being constantly scryed on from high lvl Clerics/Paladins, due to a plot device which means we have to move around using Mind Blank -> Craven doesn't work anymore
2) Most of the time we are fighting on sanctified grounds with Dimensional Anchor perma-effect. Also, any caster we fight starts with Dimensional Anchor or something.
3) The DM is a somewhat low item-power person. We are level 17 and I still use my +1 Magebane Humanbane Kukri.

What I'm looking for:
I am looking for combat options. I do garbage damage most of the time (~35 dpr at 17 lvl) since there are so many prerequisites for this character to do dmg which means I'm looking to transition to something different. I have access to +1 Greater Dispelling Pick and a party member suggested that I simply run around debuffing people and do Read-Action to stop casters. I think it's a good idea but any extra input would be awesome.
Also, I have 2 class levels where I haven't done anything. I am thinking Swashbuckler. Multiclass XP penalties do apply.

Note: The campaign has some homebrew stuff. The most important are:
1) We are able to trade XP for Spell-Likes and permanent effects. I have permanent Freedom of Movement. I have the option of getting perma Mind Blank, trading away ~1 level.
2) The Shadow Lord has been homebrewed a bit. It has no arcane spells anymore but a list of mysteries from Tome of Magic. They are irrelevant but that means I don't qualify for any spell casting PrC/feat.

Xervous
2020-08-11, 10:11 AM
I don’t see much in the way of things you can do to salvage this when the foundation is admittedly a tad flimsy and the GM is blatantly turning off your build.

If you can pick up the dark template you’d have means to salvage your DPR with how potent Shadowblend is for ensuring sneak attack, though that can easily devolve into numeric arms races you’re potentially behind on with skills.

jokeaccount
2020-08-11, 10:53 AM
I don’t see much in the way of things you can do to salvage this when the foundation is admittedly a tad flimsy...

Although it's painful I'm not really mad at the GM and it makes a bit of sense, story wise anyway.
I'm curious as to what improvements you would do to the build though! I have spent an inordinate amount of time reading on Sh.Lord builds in order to design it with the imposed restrictions (ToB hurts a lot).

nedz
2020-08-11, 12:15 PM
It's a bit hard to fix this so late in the build. Basically you've built a one trick pony who wants a new trick.

Best I can suggest is to add more bonus damage - which means more sneak dice I guess ?

Xervous
2020-08-11, 12:46 PM
Assuming by no UA there’s no fractional BAB.

You need 7 levels of whatever before you enter telflammar and stop caring about base classes. You need at least one extra feat to qualify, but ideally want at least 2 to pick up power attack. You need 2d6 sneak attack.

So rogue 3, fighter 2, and two levels to play with. Drop them in lion totem barbarian for pounce.

Rog1/Brb1/Fgt1/.../Rog+1

Key details here are wanting the first level rogue skill points and having rogue as your last level before telflammar to round our skills efficiently. While pounce does nothing initially barbarian is still the solid L2 pick for rage at the time.

Layer on 4 levels of telflammar. Past that I’m at the same general loss for ideas that comes with most noncasters.

Wraithstrike -> full power attack (shadow) pounce will be generating some hefty numbers without needing to trigger sneak attack damage. With a lighter feat load and more consistent damage you can branch out to other roles like scouting (darkstalker feat) or tripping with a reach weapon. Collar of umbral metamorphosis or the dark creature template are awesome for scouting (and again would help your sneak attack woes currently)

jokeaccount
2020-08-12, 04:52 AM
@Xervous
You are forgetting the stringiest requirement for entering Shadow Lord "must be able to use DDoor or similar teleport natively". At worst, taking the Shadow Walker LA+1 template. Also, 3 base classes means either no progression past Rogue level 3 or progression only through PrCs after the Shadow Lord levels (due to XP penalty).

@nedz
I know it was a one trick pony but I'm mostly looking for alternate ways to use my trick (being able to execute 2 full attacks and close the distance at the same time). If I can't use my trick for damage, then something else. Otherwise might as well just kill the character off, high level sessions are taking so long.

nedz
2020-08-12, 06:18 AM
OK, well you could look at the Ambush feats — the trouble with those is that you are going to need more than 2d6 sneak.

Xervous
2020-08-12, 06:52 AM
@Xervous
You are forgetting the stringiest requirement for entering Shadow Lord "must be able to use DDoor or similar teleport natively". At worst, taking the Shadow Walker LA+1 template. Also, 3 base classes means either no progression past Rogue level 3 or progression only through PrCs after the Shadow Lord levels (due to XP penalty).

The template was implied and not a target point of discussion. Absent a suggestion of a wizard build that fulfills the requirement via casting I didn’t see it noteworthy as a deviation from the initial build like the rest of the suggested adjustments. Without ToB there’s not much of a reason to pursue base classes. If the low-mid level features of rogue, fighter or barbarian were truly that grand we would be seeking them out much earlier. We don’t need more feats, sneak attack isn’t the focus, and barbarian hardly does anything for us beyond the initial dip. ECL 12 and 9 BAB sets you up for meeting BAB 16 if you only miss one level, but it would be coming online pretty late. Probably better to cherry pick a nice PrC or two that provide 3/4 BAB and useful effects to broaden versatility.

jokeaccount
2020-08-13, 08:17 AM
@Xervous
Build seems solid. I was also thinking of Power Attack at some point but I just haven't invested as much as I should in BaB and it won't work now.

Anyway it seems it is indeed too late to do drastic changes so I might as well go with a Swashbuckler for my last levels to get some more SA + Int to atk while focusing mostly on dispelling and interrupting spellcasters.

Thank god this campaign is essentially in the background now. I'll follow a simple no-brain strategy till it ends and be done with it.

Gorthawar
2020-08-13, 08:24 AM
I'd get a third eye conceal for 120k to replace the mind blank. The craven damage is something you will struggle to replace otherwise.

With a continuous collar of umbral metamorphosis you can get hide in plain sight which you could combine with spring attack to wear enemies down and when using your dispelling pick.

Travel devotion could help with getting full attacks although it would be better with a cleric dip which the multiclass xp penalty prohibits.

Bracers of Exit allow you to negate the effect of dimensional anchor 1/day. You could perhaps get a custom one with multiple charges?

If you had access to dragon magazine you could upgrade your permanent freedom of movement to freedom of passage and never worry about being restricted in teleporting again.

Last but not least for the 5 last levels I'd go dread commando. You should already qualify and with full Bab, 3d6 skirmish damage and a total of +5 to initiative it looks like it would fit well.

Hope any of this helps.

Xervous
2020-08-13, 08:34 AM
If the level lines up for it (and it seems to for taking a feat) you only need one feat to qualify for shadowdancer which nabs you the aforementioned hide in plain sight. Absent the option of getting an umbral metamorphosis collar this isn’t a terrible way of keeping your sneak attack in a vaguely reliable spot.

jokeaccount
2020-08-14, 09:52 AM
@Xervous
I had mentioned the Collar to the DM way early in the campaign and he has informed me that there is an optional quest by the Shadow Lord guild that has that as its award (although I'd have to probably do it solo or somewhat trick my party into coming with me). So i'll attempt to get that either way, avoiding the Shadow Dancer.

@Gorthawar
The Dread Commando seems like a very good choice, offers similar things to the Swashbuckler regarding precision damage and BAB without needing the Daring Outlaw feat nor XP penalty. I think i'll follow that path. Leveraging spring attack has been something that bothered me for a long time but the fact that you're not allowed to execute a full attack along with it makes it very useless in team fights (dispelling will take too many rounds). Maybe in a duel scenario where it's an attrition war it would be helpful.

Bronk
2020-08-17, 11:58 AM
1) We are being constantly scryed on from high lvl Clerics/Paladins, due to a plot device which means we have to move around using Mind Blank -> Craven doesn't work anymore


Well, bad news, good news, and bad news.

The first bad news: I agree with the others, your DM is definitely nerfing your character on purpose.

The good news: Mindblank doesn't negate Craven by RAW. The idea is that mind blank only negates devices and spells that influence thoughts and emotions, but not regular emotions, and not supernatural effects (like those caused by the Dread Witch's Fearful Empowerment ability.

The last bad news: Your DM will probably nerf it again anyway.