Reinforced Chain Shirt, Dastana, and Chahar'aina: the best armor of all time?

[Curelomosaurus]

The basics: Dastana and Chahar'aina (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=11739.0) are pieces of armor from Oriental Adventures that can be added to most other light armors and each give +1 AC and -1 ACP each. Together with a chain shirt, they act as medium armor and give +6 AC for 25% ASF and only -4 ACP (or -1 ACP if they are all masterworked). They can be enhanced separately by mundane or magical methods. Together, they're good armor overall, and slightly better than breastplate for those proficient with medium armor. Cool, but nothing to write home about.


Enter the reinforced (https://www.realmshelps.net/magic/armor/Reinforced*) armor template from Dragon #358. Reinforced armor gives an extra +1 AC for 800 gp (if light) or 1,000 gp (if medium). Add this template to a masterwork set of chain shirt, dastana, and chahar'aina, and you get medium armor that gives +9 AC and -1 ACP before enchantments for only 3,350 gp.

As an added bonus, if you make the chain shirt out of mithril for another 900 gp, you remove the armor check penalty entirely, which means that you don't need any armor proficiencies to use the armor set, and skillmonkeys can use it without taking penalties to important skills. Plus, since chain shirts and dastana are easily concealed under clothing, you can wear most of your armor wherever you go and no one will even notice.

Even casters get to join the fun! Add the feycraft (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/items.php?ID=3175) and caster (https://www.realmshelps.net/magic/armor/Caster_Armor*) enhancements to your mithril chain shirt, make your chahar'aina feycraft as well, and you get that same nonmagical +9 to AC with no ASF or ACP for 5,650 gp. Compare to bracers of armor +3, which cost nearly three times as much and give only a third of the AC bonus.

Druids simply have to make the armor out of dragonhide, which adds a mere 750 gp onto the cost. Characters whose class features require them to wear light armor (rangers, swordsages, etc) simply remove the chahar'aina and get light armor that gives +7 AC. Really, the only class that misses out is the monk )

In other words, a reinforced set of dastana, chahar'aina, and chain shirt provide a higher AC bonus than full plate, little to no ASF or ACP, and much easier concealability- useable by nearly anyone- for only a few thousand extra gp. The only non-exotic armor that provides a better bonus to AC is mechanus gear- which also halves your speed, requires heavy armor proficiency, and makes party stealth effectively impossible.

Disclaimer: I'm aware that this armor combo requires Oriental Adventures and Dragon Magazine to work, and that it's waaay past RAI. Frankly, it's awesome enough that I don't care.

[Anthrowhale]

Does Chahar'aina stack with Dastana? It doesn't say that explicitly, and armor bonuses don't stack by default.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Does Chahar'aina stack with Dastana? It doesn't say that explicitly, and armor bonuses don't stack by default.

Arms and equipment made dastana a shield without removing the "stacks with base armor" clause.

[Anthrowhale]

Arms and equipment made dastana a shield without removing the "stacks with base armor" clause.

I believe the claim here is that Dastana's give a shield bonus that stacks with shield & chain shirt while Chahar'aina gives an armor bonus that stacks with shield and chain shirt. That's a reasonable line of argument for stacking.

In the 'against' category, it seems odd if the claim is that they didn't stack in oriental adventures but did once A&EG came out. Not crazy though---sometimes things are updated.

Benefiting from special abilities distributed across the items is explicitly legit given the example in Dragon #318 page 42.

Edit: W.r.t. the OP, the same dragon magazine article explicitly forbids enhancement bonuses on these objects stacking. A dastana with a +1 enhancement bonus provides the same bonus as a reinforced dastana, so this may interfere with stacking reinforced.

[Curelomosaurus]

I believe it depends on how you read RAW. In 3.0, armor bonuses stacked (shields gave armor bonuses back then), so if you could wear different armor types together (which you can do with dastana and chahar'aina), the bonuses auto-stacked. In 3.5 it's a bit less clear, as it says that both dastana and chahar'aina can be worn on top of padded/leather/chain shirt but only explicitly states that they stack with the "foundation armor". OA implies that wearing both is RAI, and this is supported by later rules clarifications (though rules clarifications technically aren't RAW, so this doesn't for sure settle the debate).

My DMs have always considered it a legal combination, so I do as well. Even if it's ruled not to stack, +7 AC from light armor (reinforced chain shirt/dastana) with low-to-no ACP or ASF is pretty epic, if not superior to full plate.

[Curelomosaurus]

Sorry for the double post, but Anthrowhale ninja'ed me hard.


I believe the claim here is that Dastana's give a shield bonus that stacks with shield & chain shirt while Chahar'aina gives an armor bonus that stacks with shield and chain shirt. That's a reasonable line of argument for stacking.

In the 'against' category, it seems odd if the claim is that they didn't stack in oriental adventures but did once A&EG came out. Not crazy though---sometimes things are updated.

Benefiting from special abilities distributed across the items is explicitly legit given the example in Dragon #318 page 42.

Huh. I suppose that's a simpler explanation than the one I gave :smalltongue:.


Edit: W.r.t. the OP, the same dragon magazine article explicitly forbids enhancement bonuses on these objects stacking. A dastana with a +1 enhancement bonus provides the same bonus as a reinforced dastana, so this may interfere with stacking reinforced.

It's the same size of bonus (+1 to AC), but not an enhancement bonus, which is what the article forbad from stacking. RAW, it works, though it may be just a bit cheesy.

[Anthrowhale]

There's another wrinkle in 3.5 Dragon #318 update on page 42. It refers to Dastana and Chahar'aina as providing armor bonuses, so reasoning based on the 3.0 A&EG Dastana providing a shield bonus seems sketchy. Since both provide a 3.5 armor bonus, maybe they don't stack? It's clear that you can wear both, and that doing so is beneficial in giving you more places to attach armor special abilities. Do you know any rules clarifications saying they are meant to stack?

I agree the disallowance of double enhancement isn't quite the same as a disallowance of resilient, as it's a special rule.

A Segmented Reinforced Mithril Chain Shirt should provide a +5 armor bonus with a +7 maximum Dex, which is close to Celestial Armor (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) providing +5 armor/+8 dexterity. Adding in +2 more makes it competitive with Celestial Battalion Armor (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/armor.htm#armoroftheCelestialBattalion) at +5 armor/+10 dexterity which is indeed epic.

[Curelomosaurus]

Where is the 3.5 update of A&EG? I feel that might shed some light.

[Biggus]

3,350 gp, which is cheaper than a set of +1 full plate.


Huh? A set of +1 full plate is 2650GP by my understanding. 1500GP for full plate, 150GP for masterwork, 1000GP for +1.


Where is the 3.5 update of A&EG? I feel that might shed some light.

As far as I know there isn't one, Dragon #318 is available online (but I'm not sure whether it's legal, so I won't link to it here) and contains the OA update.

[Anthrowhale]

Here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=11739.0) is a claim that Dastana and Chahar'aina do not stack and here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=7917849&postcount=5) is a claim that they do stack, and this (https://www.enworld.org/threads/dastana.54734/#post-967202) may be the quote from the OA faq you remembered.

Overall, I don't see anything saying they stack by RAW, but it's very possible this was bad editing as it's odd to have two pieces of equipment that don't usefully stack unless they are magical.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's another wrinkle in 3.5 Dragon #318 update on page 42. It refers to Dastana and Chahar'aina as providing armor bonuses, so reasoning based on the 3.0 A&EG Dastana providing a shield bonus seems sketchy. Since both provide a 3.5 armor bonus, maybe they don't stack? It's clear that you can wear both, and that doing so is beneficial in giving you more places to attach armor special abilities. Do you know any rules clarifications saying they are meant to stack?

The 3.5 update to OA in dragon magazine is dragon material and, therefore, suspect anyway. The fact remains that in 3.0 they definitely stacked since they explicitly say they do and there was no shield bonus. In A&EG they moved dastana from "extras" to "shields" that's still 3.0 so there's still no shield bonus. Updating to 3.5, shields provide a shield bonus rather than an armor bonus in order to avoid confusion about whether and when armor bonuses stack.

Enter the drag mag issue. The text is primarily about the interaction of magical cahar-aina and dastana with only a passing mention of what those actually are. Given the relative rush-job that the whole article seems to be, I very, very seriously doubt they were intending to move dastana back from being a special type of shield if they were even aware it had been moved in the first place.

In any case, the intent for the items is pretty clear. They were intended to stack with one another as well as the base armor and any normal shield the character uses. Peculiarities in changes to both edition and editing/design team shouldn't change that.

[Anthrowhale]

The 3.5 update to OA in dragon magazine is dragon material and, therefore, suspect anyway. The fact remains that in 3.0 they definitely stacked since they explicitly say they do and there was no shield bonus. In A&EG they moved dastana from "extras" to "shields" that's still 3.0 so there's still no shield bonus. Updating to 3.5, shields provide a shield bonus rather than an armor bonus in order to avoid confusion about whether and when armor bonuses stack.

Enter the drag mag issue. The text is primarily about the interaction of magical cahar-aina and dastana with only a passing mention of what those actually are. Given the relative rush-job that the whole article seems to be, I very, very seriously doubt they were intending to move dastana back from being a special type of shield if they were even aware it had been moved in the first place.

In any case, the intent for the items is pretty clear. They were intended to stack with one another as well as the base armor and any normal shield the character uses. Peculiarities in changes to both edition and editing/design team shouldn't change that.
I agree with everything except the highlighted part. Where is the explicit saying? I just see an explicit statement that they stack with a shield and Padded/Leather/Chain.

[the_tick_rules]

let's see if i do the math right. If you get celestial armor reinforced, add the nimbleness enchantment, and then buff it to +5 you get +11 armor bonus, 9 dex bonus, 0 acp, and light armor.

side note I downloaded the referenced dragon magazine and it contained something else. Now st cuthbert is described as lawful good who leaned neutral. I heard he was lawful neutral who leaned good. which is it?

[hamishspence]

When not using Dragon Magazine, and in 3.0 or later, he's LN.

When using Dragon Magazine, or in pre-3.0 material, he's LG.

[Crake]

By the description of the reinforced adjustment, it doesn't sound like it would be able to be applied to the dastana and chahar'aina, it specifies a suit of armor, the dastana and chahar are not suits of armor, nor could the reasonably be reinforced with "toughened leather, small metal plates, or other hardened material". If anything, they themselves would practically be the equivilent of "reinforcing" a chain shirt.

Personally, as a DM I wouldn't allow reinforced on the base armor to stack with chahar'aina or dastana, as funcitonally they seem to be doing the same thing, and there's a point where you go from "Chain shirt with extra bits" to "straight up chainmail".

[animewatcha]

Main aspect of the magical dastana / Chahar'aina, the plus 1 enhancement to ac won't stack but magical armor enhancements like fire resistance would. Granted with one of those, IIRC, you would have to give up the 'bracers/arms' slot for magic items. Not easily done depending upon your class.

Interesting thing to note that the reinforced mod doesn't say anything about shields. I've had a DM in the past use a 'reinforced' shield before.

Depending upon how far you want to take it.

You can do vassal of bahamut for a single level for a 'dragonscale' 'masterwork chain shirt' that gives +8 armor bonus and functions like chain shirt. So reinforce it and have the dastana / Chahar'aina ( extra flavor by making them out of dragonscale ). Now the prestige class itself is bahamut heavy, but it easy for a DM to 'flip the script' to do a 'vassal of tiamat' to flip good-to-evil for similar effect.

For sacred vow and vow of obediance feats, make 'em to bahamut and bahamut is your superior. Or heck, see if DM is willing to changing out the pre--reqs.

[the_tick_rules]

wow you could stack reinforced and segmented on light armor and get +2 AC for 1k. That's a deal.

[Curelomosaurus]

wow you could stack reinforced and segmented on light armor and get +2 AC for 1k. That's a deal.

Segmented armor gives +1 max Dex, not +1 AC...

[the_tick_rules]

yeah i assumed you would have a higher dex bonus than your current armor.

[Anthrowhale]

Crake's point seems valid.

Even with that though, stacking AC as RAI implies a Segmented Reinforced Caster Armor Elvencraft Mithril Chain Shirt + Dastana + Chahar-Aina would have +7 armor AC, +7 maximum dex bonus, and 0 ACP/ASF. This makes me wonder: what is the highest mundane-only AC that is achievable?

[Curelomosaurus]

Crake's point seems valid.

Even with that though, stacking AC as RAI implies a Segmented Reinforced Caster Armor Elvencraft Mithril Chain Shirt + Dastana + Chahar-Aina would have +7 armor AC, +7 maximum dex bonus, and 0 ACP/ASF. This makes me wonder: what is the highest mundane-only AC that is achievable?

I'm assuming you mean "highest possible AC from equipment only", since otherwise the answer is "as high as a monk/duelist/battledancer/whatever can get their ability scores" or "as high as someone with Mounted Combat can get their Ride check" ... in other words, NI.

As for from equipment only:
Reinforced mechanus gear: +11
Ironhorn extract (taken weekly): +1
Tower shield: +4 (+8 if you can use two at once, which I think you can)
That's 26-30 nonmagical AC on a commoner.

[the_tick_rules]

you could hold two tower shields but it'd be a bad idea. you can't bash with them so you would have no offense and bonuses of the same type don't so you would only get +4 shield.

[Curelomosaurus]

By the description of the reinforced adjustment, it doesn't sound like it would be able to be applied to the dastana and chahar'aina, it specifies a suit of armor, the dastana and chahar are not suits of armor, nor could the reasonably be reinforced with "toughened leather, small metal plates, or other hardened material". If anything, they themselves would practically be the equivilent of "reinforcing" a chain shirt.

Each weapon and armor augmentation (acid washed, reinforced, segmented, etc) in that and related Dragon articles specifies what it can and cannot be added to, and the reinforced template "can only be added to armor"; only flavor text specifies "suits of armor". It's true that dastana and chahar'aina were obviously never considered here, and it's certainly reasonable to disallow the combo as a DM based on the wording.


Main aspect of the magical dastana / Chahar'aina, the plus 1 enhancement to ac won't stack but magical armor enhancements like fire resistance would. Granted with one of those, IIRC, you would have to give up the 'bracers/arms' slot for magic items. Not easily done depending upon your class.

Yes, OA does specify that magical dastana take up the bracers slot, though considering how even a non-reinforced chain shirt and dastana outclass braces of armor by far, it's certainly a reasonable option. It's like enchanting your boots as armor, using the rationale that they give an armor bonus against caltrops; it's about give and take. For some people, an extra piece of enchantable armor is well worth giving up a body slot.

As a side note, could masterwork dastana be used as the base items for magic bracers to get that extra +1 AC on top of whatever your magic bracers already do?

[Anthrowhale]

I'm assuming you mean "highest possible AC from equipment only", since otherwise the answer is "as high as a monk/duelist/battledancer/whatever can get their ability scores" or "as high as someone with Mounted Combat can get their Ride check" ... in other words, NI.

As for from equipment only:
Reinforced mechanus gear: +11
Ironhorn extract (taken weekly): +1
Tower shield: +4 (+8 if you can use two at once, which I think you can)
That's 26-30 nonmagical AC on a commoner.

I was thinking about the highest mundane AC, as in: no magic is involved in achieving it. But, Combat Expertise suggests that the right question to ask is actually: "What is the highest mundane AC+Attack?" And, lets limit the scope to ECL 20, 32 point buy, and consider only armor/attack improvements that apply for at least 8 hours/day.

As an example, an Elf Fighter 11/Champion of Correllon Larethian 9 could have:
An attack bonus of 28=+20(BAB)+7(Dex, Weapon Finesse)+1(Weapon Focus)
An armor class of 30=10+11(Mithril Segmented Reinforced Mechanus Gear)+6(Dex)+3(Extreme Shield)
For an attack+AC of 58.

A Crucian Fighter 15 could have:
Attack bonus of 26=+17(BAB)+8(Str)+1(Weapon Focus)
An armor class of 35=10+8(Natural Armor)+11(Reinforced Segmented Mithril Mechanus Gear)+3(Dex)+3(Extreme Shield)
For an Attack+AC of 61.

A Jermlaine Swordsage 2/Fighter 18 could have:
An attack bonus of 31=+19(BAB)+9(Wis, Intuitive Attack)+1(Weapon Focus)+2(Size)
An armor class of 30=10+25(Reinforced Segmented Mithril Chain Shirt)+01(Chahar-Aina)+01(Dastana)+7(Dex)+9(Wis)+2(Size)
For an Attack+AC of 61.

A Wartroll Fighter 2 could have:
Attack Bonus of 28 = +14(BAB)+14(Str)+1(Weapon Focus)-1(Size)
Armor Class of 40 = 10+14(Natural Armor)+11(Reinforced Segmented Mithril Mechanus Gear)+3(Dex)+3(Extreme Shield)-1(Size)
For an Attack+AC of 68


It's probably possible to do better, although it seems tricky. The last one is on par with a Balor (Attack+AC 68) and close to a Pit Fiend (Attack+AC 70) although a Wyrm Black Dragon (Attack+AC 81) is still a ways off.

Effectively using Duelist, Monk, etc... armor bonuses seems difficult due to the inability to combine with some armor.

BTW, Ironthorn extract in Sandstorm does not add to the AC of armor.

Edit: Discovered that wartroll has magical backstory and remembered that tiny creatures suffer from 1/2 armor bonus.

[animewatcha]

I'm assuming you mean "highest possible AC from equipment only", since otherwise the answer is "as high as a monk/duelist/battledancer/whatever can get their ability scores" or "as high as someone with Mounted Combat can get their Ride check" ... in other words, NI.

As for from equipment only:
Reinforced mechanus gear: +11
Ironhorn extract (taken weekly): +1
Tower shield: +4 (+8 if you can use two at once, which I think you can)
That's 26-30 nonmagical AC on a commoner.

Ironthorn extract improves clothing ac bonus to +1, but does not improve materials that already provide an armor bonus.

[the_tick_rules]

how did +6 dex come from mechanus gear? Mithral adds 2, nimbleness adds 1, segmented adds 1, and that is the best dex stacking method i know of. where does the rest come from? oh and what's an extreme shield?

[Anthrowhale]

how did +6 dex come from mechanus gear? Mithral adds 2, nimbleness adds 1, segmented adds 1, and that is the best dex stacking method i know of. where does the rest come from? oh and what's an extreme shield?

Champ of CL provides an extra +3 to maximum dex. Nimbleness is avoided here as we are looking at mundane limits.

Extreme Shield is from Races of Stone. It requires a feat to use.

[Curelomosaurus]

Ironthorn extract improves clothing ac bonus to +1, but does not improve materials that already provide an armor bonus.

I thought it provided a natural armor bonus...

And apparently you're right, it enhances clothing. What's the alchemical thing that gives +1 natural armor?

[the_tick_rules]

probably barkskin potions

[Thurbane]

Reinforced mechanus gear: +11.

Thaalud Stone Armor (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=14666565&postcount=7) (Anaruoch - The Empire of Shade p.108) has an armor bonus of +12.

If your focusing on Dex, then Gnome Twist Cloth has no cap on max dex. If you can get some sort of NI Dex bonus, sky is the limit.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

you could hold two tower shields but it'd be a bad idea. you can't bash with them so you would have no offense and bonuses of the same type don't so you would only get +4 shield.

If riverine (a special material from Stormwrack) counts as non-magical, which is iffy, you still get half the AC bonus from the second shield, because it's a deflection bonus. You can't shield-bash, but you can make unarmed strikes with head, feet, maybe elbows, knees, butt, etc.. And several natural weapons will still work; the easiest to acquire being a bite attack.

[Anthrowhale]

Thaalud Stone Armor (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=14666565&postcount=7) (Anaruoch - The Empire of Shade p.108) has an armor bonus of +12.

So Reinforced Segmented Thaalud Stone would be AC +13 armor with a +1 max dex bonus. Comparing with Reinforced Segmented Mithril Mechanus Gear/Mountain Plate (AC +11 armor with +3 max dex bonus) and Reinforced Segmented Mithril Chain Shirt+Dastana+Chahar'aina (AC+7 armor with +7 max dex bonus). That's a consistent +14 maximum of Armor + Dexterity bonus.

Achieving a dexterity justifying Gnomish Twist Cloth in a mundane fashion appears quite difficult. Comparing to Reinforced Segmented Shadowsilk Padded Armor + Mithril Dastana / Chahar'aina which has an armor bonus of +4 and a max dex bonus of +11, it looks like Gnomish Twist cloth only provides a benefit once you reach a dex bonus of +14. The highest dex bonus I've observed in a mundane fashion is +9.

[animewatcha]

Assuming thulaad stone is full plate armor.

copy and paste of full from d20srd for full plate
Full plate cost 1,500 gp ac 8 max dex 1 -6 armor check penalty 35% arcane spell failure weight 50 lb.

thulaad stone as advertised if full plate
Thaalud Stone Armor: heavy armor; cost 2,800 gp;
armor bonus +12; max Dex bonus +0; armor check penalty
–8; arcane spell failure 40%; speed 30 ft./20 ft. ( original speed versus new speed ), 20 ft./15 ( original speed versus new speed )
ft.; weight 180 lb.

Meaning thulaad stone as material ( mostly stone, but had metallic riverts and joints. Likely not enough for things like shocking touch to grant its bonus etc. ) looks to cost 1300 extra gp. Provides 4 ( as heavy armor ) extra armor bonus. Reduce max dex bonus 1. Increase armor check penalty by 2. Increase arcane spell failure by 5% and weight will likely be atleast 3 times the original weight ( original platearmor 50 pounds with thulaad being 180 so 3.6 ?).
Since the 'featured listing' has it as heavy armor, it would likely increase armor category.

If oerth-blooded is anything to go by ( cause of increased abilities via heavier armor ), then I would say +2 armor for light armor and +3 for medium.

[Curelomosaurus]

Thaalud Stone Armor (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=14666565&postcount=7) (Anaruoch - The Empire of Shade p.108) has an armor bonus of +12.


Daaaaaang.

First-party armor that gives +12 nonmagical AC, has fewer restrictions than mechanus gear, and only costs 2,800 gp?! That's so wonderfully broken... :smallbiggrin: