Bladesinger: fighter 1/bladesinger or straight wizard?

[Klorox]

What are the pros and cons of each? Is it worth giving up a spell level for +2 damage, CON saves and a few more HP?

[Hellpyre]

Fighter 1 is generally a much worse dip than fighter 2. If you want to just start on something for the save, Sorc offer CON and doesn't delay your access to higher-level spell slots (although you end up with one level each time where you can only upcast with them). If you want to improve your chassis, Action Surge is massive, especially since you can take a third level as EK and not delay your slot growth (although again, you may have slots without spells known at that level). Most importantly, bladesinger specifically and wizards in general benefit tremendously for ASI/Feats, so a one level dip hurts you there too. I'd say either take EK to the first ASI, or roll straight wizard.

[heavyfuel]

This depends entirely on your (and your fellow players's) expectations of the character.

Is this character the party's main caster who happens to be able to hold his own in a fight? Or is this character the main frontliner who happens to also casts spells?

For the first scenario, go Wizard all the way. Anything that delays your spell progression should be seen as nearly forbidden. For the second scenario, sure, go Fighter 2/Wizard X and be happy.

[kaervaak]

Artificer is a much better 1 level dip than sorcerer (well not a dip, start as a level 1 artificer then go wizard). You get con save proficiency, medium armor and shields, and no penalty to spell slot progression.

[Valmark]

Honestly, I wouldn't bother as a bladesinger taking a fighter dip.

You harm your spellcasting progression, delay your class feature and weaken one of the strongest class features in the game (Arcane Recovery uses wizard level) for proficiencies that you can't really use, a CON save that isn't truly needed since you add Int to concentration, roughly 2 more hp, a weak healing and the fighting style which can be good, I guess. Not enough for everything you lose imo.

[Keravath]

One of the draws for the fighter dip on a wizard is to be able action surge once/short rest in order to cast two spells on the first round of combat. This is a very powerful ability but it significantly delays your spellcasting by 2 levels.

It adds higher first level hit points, con save proficiency, a fighting style, second wind which are probably all pretty minor next to action surge. I've seen a number of wizard characters put together this way but it really starts to shine about level 7 when they can cast 2 third level spells in the first round of a big fight.

In the case of a bladesinger, I would argue it has extra synergy. If you have used up bladesong you can use a shield and medium armor for better AC. You are proficient with all martial weapons instead of just the one provided by the class feature.

[Valmark]

In the case of a bladesinger, I would argue it has extra synergy. If you have used up bladesong you can use a shield and medium armor for better AC. You are proficient with all martial weapons instead of just the one provided by the class feature.

Small note on the third point: the armor advantage (why medium and not heavy?) Only applies if you have the time to change armor but not the time to Short Rest which in my experience isn't usually very likely. And is less sinergistic then a wizard always using that armor.

Also it's usually unlikely to need more then one weapon, but that's true. Or it's just my DMs that never seem to make much use of monster resistant to specific types of weapon. I always hope to see an ooze and it never happens.

[Keravath]

Small note on the third point: the armor advantage (why medium and not heavy?) Only applies if you have the time to change armor but not the time to Short Rest which in my experience isn't usually very likely. And is less sinergistic then a wizard always using that armor.

Also it's usually unlikely to need more then one weapon, but that's true. Or it's just my DMs that never seem to make much use of monster resistant to specific types of weapon. I always hope to see an ooze and it never happens.

The multiple weapon types is more useful from the perspective that you never know what magical weapons you might find. If you have a DM who likes to provide exactly what you can use then it isn't a big deal. Otherwise, you might have to wait a long time for that one weapon that your bladesinger wizard is proficient with. On the other hand, if you are using shadow blade as a bladesinger then a magic weapon is perhaps less of a priority.

As for armor ... if I am thinking of swapping armor ... from a practical perspective, the one that is lighter to carry and takes less time to put on would probabaly be the better choice most of the time though the real advantage is just the ability to grab a shield which bumps the AC by 2 and only takes an action to put on.

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The biggest problem I have with bladesingers is that they really need to boost intelligence as well as their attack stat to be both good with spells and good with weapons ... which uses up a lot of ASIs.

[Valmark]

The multiple weapon types is more useful from the perspective that you never know what magical weapons you might find. If you have a DM who likes to provide exactly what you can use then it isn't a big deal. Otherwise, you might have to wait a long time for that one weapon that your bladesinger wizard is proficient with. On the other hand, if you are using shadow blade as a bladesinger then a magic weapon is perhaps less of a priority.

As for armor ... if I am thinking of swapping armor ... from a practical perspective, the one that is lighter to carry and takes less time to put on would probabaly be the better choice most of the time though the real advantage is just the ability to grab a shield which bumps the AC by 2 and only takes an action to put on.

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The biggest problem I have with bladesingers is that they really need to boost intelligence as well as their attack stat to be both good with spells and good with weapons ... which uses up a lot of ASIs.

Oh, true that. Yeah, I'm usually in groups where the DM gives out magic items suited for the party if they want to keep those, so I didn't think of the magic weapon issue.

Mmm makes sense. Still don't see how it's more sinergistic then another kind of wizard always having it on, but it makes sense.

Yeah, you risk sinking all your ASIs into Int/stat with point buy or dump most of other things. If it could use int for attack rolls somehow it could be better.

[Gtdead]

I don't think a fighter dip is a good idea.

All you do is trade bladesinger survivability for fighter survivabilty. I could find a lot of reasons for any other wizard subclass to dip fighter, but not bladesinger. Bladesong can be used 4-6 times a day. It's easy to have on pretty much every encounter. A fighter AC progression
isn't much better from a Bladesinger progression.

Fighter starts at 19 (assuming defense style), up to 21 without magic items, and up to 27 with +3 armor and shield.

Bladesinger starts at 16 with mage armor, 19 with bladesong, up to 23 with max dex and int without magic items, and up to 27 with bracers of defense and robe of the archmagi.


Unless you are planning on playing an archer wizard. Then you may need archery from fighter. Not at first level though. It's a niche build, but if you play in a 2-3 man party and you need to cover an additional role, it's potent, even if it's a late bloomer. So you still level as a wizard, and eventually you dip fighter.

[FoxWolFrostFire]

From my experience the sooner a bladesinger reaches critical mass of spells and features the sooner he becomes near godly. I've in a few odd cases have had easier time knocking down the paladin or Barbarian than the humble blade singer.

So if your going for crunch blade singer all the way
But heavy, medium and shield armor as well as a full slew of weapons can be VERY fluffy and interesting.

[LudicSavant]

Is it worth giving up a spell level for +2 damage, CON saves and a few more HP?

I'd say no.

You either go 2 Fighter levels or none.

[Sol0botmate]

Imo 1 level dip is worth, but you have to ask yourself what do you want:

If you will be playing higher level Tiers, like level 15+ then having access to Action Surge and crit range of 19-20 when you use EA + Tenser is big boost.

So then 1 Fighter/17 Bladesinger/2 FIghter (Champion) using Tenser + 19-20 crit + EA + Action Surge + Simulacrum + Haste + Greater Steed is superb combo. And TWF is superb on Tenser Bladesinger with EA. Or you can go 1 Fighter/12 Bladesinger (so you get Tenser + ASI) and then 1-2 levels Fighter. This is good if you will play to like level 15/16, but not higher so you don't delay 9th level spells too much.

If you are not sure you will play higher than level 15/16 then it's much better to get first level as Artificer and then go Bladesinger.

1 level Artificer gives you 1 level spell progression (so you don't lose it), CON saves (great, saves you ASI), spells like: Fearie Fire (great, Wiz don't have it!), Cure Wounds (great!), Sanctuary (great) + 2 cantrips (great) and Magical Tinkering which is nice utility. Medium armor and shield obviously won't benefit Bladesinger.

So I would go 1 Artificer/X Bladesinger. With CON prof + Bladesong your concentration will be quite unbreakable and you save 1 ASI Which is huge.

Because then you can go EA (18 DEX), +2 INT, +2 INT and on level 13 have 18 DEX and 20 INT for your Bladesinger.

So yes, dip is worth on bladesinger but Artificer > Fighter if you are not gonna play Tier 4.

[Klorox]

Thanks guys. I'm still on the fence here, but I'm really enjoying reading all of your inputs.

[Benny89]

Artificer 1 level is best dip for Bladesinger imo. You get:

CON saves
Fearie Fire
Cure Wounds
Guidance
Shield of Faith
Sanctuary
Longstrider
Medium Armor + Shield (though not useful for Bladesinger much).

And Artificer has 1 level caster progression on 1st level so you don't lose any progression when it comes to slots.

Imo worth it. Because then you don't have to invest in RES (CON) and you can just focus on EA, + 2 INT, +2 INT and on level 13 you have 18 DEX + EA and 20 INT.

[Naerytar]

I love Fighter 1 dips. If you start as Fighter you get


Martial weapon proficiency
Heavy armor proficiency
Shield proficiency
Fighting style
Con saves
Second Wind


That's a pretty great deal for one level. It's almost everything you need to turn any character into a melee character. Fighter 1 / Bard X, Fighter 1 / Sorcerer X, Fighter 1 / Abjuration Wizard X... those are all good characters.

I completely disagree with the sentiment that you either take two levels of Fighter or none. If you have a choice between
a) a very good deal (1 level dip)
b) an even better deal, but with a trade-off (2 level dip, slower spell progression)
then a) doesn't suddenly become bad just because b) exists. I think that's a fallacy. If the stuff you get is worth one level, then it's worth it, no matter what two levels might give you.

In this particular case however, the 1 level dip doesn't make much sense. You don't need 3/6 of the benefits I've listed above (martial weapons, heavy armor and shields). Sacrificing one level for the other three... eh, I wouldn't do it.

[Evaar]

This depends entirely on your (and your fellow players's) expectations of the character.

Is this character the party's main caster who happens to be able to hold his own in a fight? Or is this character the main frontliner who happens to also casts spells?

For the first scenario, go Wizard all the way. Anything that delays your spell progression should be seen as nearly forbidden. For the second scenario, sure, go Fighter 2/Wizard X and be happy.

This is correct.

[ccjmk]

I agree with others than mentioned that Artificer 1 is probably the best call here. You get some nice spells outside of the wizard's list, while staying keyed on INT only for spellcasting, armor, shields, CON prof.. and keeping the spell progression gives for a nice (imo) thing where you will have higher level slots than you have spells, so you will have some border levels where you will be encouraged to upcast spells. when you multiclass a spellcaster and your fellow cleric has 3rd level spells and slots and you don't, it feels like a boomer. But when you don't have 3rd level spells yet but at least can upcast an Invisibility or Burning Hands or the likes, it has some nice payback!

[Randomthom]

I agree with others than mentioned that Artificer 1 is probably the best call here. You get some nice spells outside of the wizard's list, while staying keyed on INT only for spellcasting, armor, shields, CON prof.. and keeping the spell progression gives for a nice (imo) thing where you will have higher level slots than you have spells, so you will have some border levels where you will be encouraged to upcast spells. when you multiclass a spellcaster and your fellow cleric has 3rd level spells and slots and you don't, it feels like a boomer. But when you don't have 3rd level spells yet but at least can upcast an Invisibility or Burning Hands or the likes, it has some nice payback!

Remember you're a Wizard with a spellbook, if you can find the scroll or borrow/steal a spellbook, you can learn the spell so the loss doesn't hurt Wizards as much as it does other casters.

It gets slightly MAD but I like the Cleric for this. Forge, Tempest, War are all good choices.

[Klorox]

In a vacuum, I will agree: I think the best build is battle smith artificer for the first 3 levels.

You get to wear medium armor and a shield for the first 4 levels, you get CON saves, more cantrips, and INT is undoubtedly the stat you want to maximize before DEX.

Artificer isn’t one of those classes that works in every setting though.