Do dwarven deserters get deliberately sent to Hel? Also does she get all the babies.

[dancrilis]

Pretty simple question - here panel 2 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0111.html) Durkon explains what happens to dwarven deserters, they get hung for their crimes.

So should this be taken to mean they get executed and if so is there any honour in being executed in such a manner, or are dwarves more like halflings and hanging is not a viable execution method?

Seperately to the deserter question do dwarf babies go to Hel - normally they go to the afterlife of the mother but dwarves default to Hel, and even if the normal mother rules apply if the mother hasn't died she cannot claim to have died with honour so presumedly Hel gets to keep the soul anyway.

[RatElemental]

The "babies go to their mother's afterlife" rule isn't exactly fair to begin with and has some other unfortunate implications anyway, so I wouldn't be surprised if Hel got all the babies that died by accident, disease (especially disease) or for seemingly no reason at all.

[Dr.Zero]

The "babies go to their mother's afterlife" rule

I remember this one "rule" begin cited here and there, but is it from the author or is it just a wild mass guess?
Because, of course, there is plenty of unfortunate implications, but if it came from the author, it would reinforce a personal belief I have about the way he sees parental figures.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah it sounds like the deserters are sent to Hel. That’s pretty straightforward to me.

Although Thor is going to try and rescue them anyway.

[dancrilis]

I remember this one "rule" begin cited here and there, but is it from the author or is it just a wild mass guess?
Because, of course, there is plenty of unfortunate implications, but if it came from the author, it would reinforce a personal belief I have about the way he sees parental figures.

Relevant posts, the first is the origin the second is likely more important to the discussion.


If you really need an answer, let's say that babies go wherever their mother is/will go, because of the psychic umbilical cord that stretches through the Uterine Plane. When you get older and determine your own alignment, marauding githyanki doctors with special silver clamps cut the cord. Because why not?

And since people have mentioned how creeped out they are about the fact that Eric doesn't ever get to grow up, let's say that when everyone who knew him in life gets over their baggage about his death and ascends higher up the mountain, he either reincarnates or grows up or something. I don't know what. Something. Whatever doesn't creep you out. Again, not important to the story.



Yes, babies of Evil mothers go to the Evil afterlives. No, it's not fair.

Fairness is not a cosmological principle, fairness is a philosophical concept that not everyone agrees on. This is not strictly a Good/Evil split either; one could easily imagine Chaotic Good folks being in favor of a process that was rampantly unfair if that unfairness benefited the weak, with Lawful Evil folks opposed to the same system because they pulled themselves up by their bootstraps without it and so should everyone else. One could argue that "survival of the fittest" is the ultimate in fairness, in that it treats everyone equally with no exceptions, but it's not an ideal that most Good people promote.

Since the OOTS cosmos was created by a committee of equal gods with a wide spectrum of alignments, philosophies, and cultural tendencies, justice is only enforced to the degree that those who favor justice could negotiate its enforcement. In some instances, they were forced to compromise and allow unjust procedures in certain areas for the sake of avoiding Snarl 2.0. In this case, the relative fairness of having one rule that applied to everyone trumped the potential injustice of innocent babies going to Hell.

Further, if it really bothers you, remember that my previous statement said that if you want to imagine those babies reincarnating eventually, you could. Maybe the psychic impressions left by spending time in Hell subtly encourages many of them to veer away from Evil in their next life. Or maybe Good priests use these facts to try to sway Evil parents away from their dastardly paths: "Turn away from the darkness, lest you drag your swaddling babe down to the Pit in your wake!" Just because it's awful to think about the individual circumstances doesn't mean that it doesn't lead to a net increase in Good over the aggregate.

And just to be clear: There is no "overgod" in OOTS at all. There are the nonsentient cosmological forces of the four alignments (Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos), which can be tapped directly for clerical power if you prefer not to go through a deific intermediary, but they have no capacity to take action any more than the force of gravity does. They certainly took no part in shaping the rules and procedures of the OOTS afterlife, as that was entirely done by the gods themselves.

[Synesthesy]

Yeah deserting is not honorfull, and being executed for that isn't at all. But there could be two points about that:

1) maybe the fear of ending in Hel's afterlife make dwarven deserters 0
2) maybe there is a way out: maybe if you desert you lose your honor, but maybe accepting your guilt and going to the death sentence without fear means that you can go to valhalla. I quite remember Ragnar saying something like that in the first episode of Vikings, and if it works this way, the sentence is also a way to save your soul other then a way to punish you for your crime, and this and point 1 would really sound right with what we know about Dwarven culture in ootsverse.

[Dr.Zero]

Relevant posts, the first is the origin the second is likely more important to the discussion.

Thanks. (And some more thanks to fill up to 10 characters!)

[Fyraltari]

Yeah deserting is not honorfull, and being executed for that isn't at all. But there could be two points about that:

1) maybe the fear of ending in Hel's afterlife make dwarven deserters 0
Fear of punishment isn’t enough to deter from crime in real life and we know there are dwarven deserters : eighth panel (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1170.html).

2) maybe there is a way out: maybe if you desert you lose your honor, but maybe accepting your guilt and going to the death sentence without fear means that you can go to valhalla. I quite remember Ragnar saying something like that in the first episode of Vikings, and if it works this way, the sentence is also a way to save your soul other then a way to punish you for your crime, and this and point 1 would really sound right with what we know about Dwarven culture in ootsverse.
I like that.

[Dion]

I have a much more important question: if a dwarf chose to worship Banjo, would their deliverance automatically be to the puppet afterlife?

After all, Banjo was not party to the bet between Hel, Loki, and Thor. There’s no reason he should be bound to its conditions.

Or, did Banjo implicitly give up his divine rights to those souls when he attempted to join the northern pantheon?

[Peelee]

I have a much more important question: if a dwarf chose to worship Banjo, would their deliverance automatically be to the puppet afterlife?
Short answer? No.

Long answer? Noooooooooo.

[Fyraltari]

I have a much more important question: if a dwarf chose to worship Banjo, would their deliverance automatically be to the puppet afterlife?

After all, Banjo was not party to the bet between Hel, Loki, and Thor. There’s no reason he should be bound to its conditions.

Or, did Banjo implicitly give up his divine rights to those souls when he attempted to join the northern pantheon?
If Banjo can’t cough up a proper smiting I doubt he has an afterlife.

[Dr.Zero]

If Banjo can’t cough up a proper smiting I doubt he has an afterlife.

He could be a good god and have a great afterlife even with a tiny smiting.
Size doesn't matter, the skill he has in using his smiting does.

[Peelee]

He could be a good god and have a great afterlife even with a tiny smiting.
Size doesn't matter, the skill he has in using his smiting does.

That skill being "could arguably have been prestidigitation", of course.

[Dion]

So here’s an actual serious question: what would happen to a dwarf who chooses to worship TDO?

[dancrilis]

So here’s an actual serious question: what would happen to a dwarf who chooses to worship TDO?

Same thing that seems to happen to every other dwarf - defaulted to Hel, unless an arguement occurs - so unless The Dark One has allies who will intercede on his behalf or is willing to take on Hel (and likely the rest of the Northern Pantheon) then Hel gets a free soul.

[RatElemental]

That skill being "could arguably have been prestidigitation", of course.

I'm really not sure how this idea is so pervasive when prestidigitation can't do anything like Banjo's "smite." I still maintain it was probably a silent image.

[littlebum2002]

I imagine its the same for all dwarven occupations: desserters, bakers, butchers, etc.