[3.5] DFA "Gish"

[Thurbane]

Something I've wondered about: is it possible to make a "gish", with Dragonfire Adept as the "casting" base. Yes, I know it's not ideal, but I'm still interested.


Dragonfire adepts benefit in a specific way from prestige classes that have a level advancement benefit of "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class" or "+1 level of existing spellcasting class." A dragonfire adept taking levels in such a prestige class does not gain any other benefits of that level increase, but she does gain an increased caster level when using her invocations and increased damage with her breath weapon. Levels of prestige classes that provide +1 level of spellcasting effectively stack with the dragonfire adept's level to determine her breath weapon damage and save DC. She also gains new invocations at each prestige class level as though she had risen a level in the dragonfire adept class.


So, couple of things I'm looking for: full (or medium) BAB classes a DFA can enter easily; classes that give better than d8 hp if possible; and martial weapon proficiency (maybe a Crusader dip?)..

The goal is to hit +16 or better BAB by level 20 (without UMDing wands of Divine Power or such), have as many HP as possible, MWP, and have as close to full progression on invocations and breath weapon damage as possible.

Armor proficiency isn't a high priority, since armor interferes with invocations.

Looking for class based solutions as much as possible, and not the need to rely on a specific race or particular magic items. For instance, an outsider race would give MWP, or the character could use a Skillful weapon and get 3/4 BAB - ideally, not wanting to rely on stuff like this.

Usual table restrictions apply for my purposes: no psionics, no incarnum, no artificers, no PF, no home-brew, no 3rd party; Dragon and Dungeon mag material are frowned upon.

Cheers - T

[Temotei]

Scion of Tem-Et-Nu (Sandstorm 82) would be interesting. Decently easy prerequisites, d10 HD, full BAB, 5/10 casting progression, and the features mostly...exist. Unsure where else to go though, and it's not great. Might be okay if you can somehow get its abilities consistently even when not in a river (acorn of far travel maybe, if you can swing an oak being right over a river).

Jade phoenix mage (Tome of Battle 113) could also be cool, if you can meet the prerequisites. Maybe with a gnome with Precocious Apprentice (you need to be able to choose a school of magic for Precocious Apprentice, which is unfortunate, since invocations don't have schools; enter the gnome with its spell-like abilities). Only d6 HD, but full BAB, 8/10 casting progression, and initiator stuff. That would probably look something like dragonfire adept 5/crusader 1/jade phoenix mage 10/dragonfire adept +1/crusader +3 or something? You'd have 6d8+4d10+10d6 hp, +17 BAB, CL 14, IL 17, and your second level of crusader is at IL 15, so you can pick up Immortal Fortitude if you please, and your final level is crusader 4, a level at which you can swap an older maneuver for a 9th. Seems passable.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I doubt you're interested in a suggestion of Duskblade/DFA/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge and casting Divine Power.

You can still use Duskblade to get spellcasting that helps qualify you for Abjurant Champion, or even other classes with Sanctum Spell and similar.

Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) are obvious choices, but meeting the spellcasting requirements will be difficult barring stacking early qualification tricks or gaining Phantom Steed as a spell-like ability.

If you can get Dismissal or Dispel Evil as a spell-like ability somehow, Sacred Exorcist gives full spellcasting with 3/4 BAB. I don't know of any invocations that can do that, but maybe if you can do it from an item. A Half-Celestial gets Dispel Evil at 9th level, but the +4 LA is hard to work around even with buying it off.

There's also JPM of course, you can qualify with Duskblade + Sanctum Spell or Improved Sigil: Krau, etc.


Probably something like Warblade 1/ Duskblade 1/ Dragonfire Adept 4/ JPM 10/ Abjurant Champion 4. That's +18 BAB and DFA 16 casting for a 7d6 breath and one dark invocation.

[Thurbane]

Thank you both, nice suggestions.


Probably something like Warblade 1/ Duskblade 1/ Dragonfire Adept 4/ JPM 10/ Abjurant Champion 4. That's +18 BAB and DFA 16 casting for a 7d6 breath and one dark invocation.

That is very promising!

[daremetoidareyo]

Badger hengeyokai can take furious inhalation, adding 2d6 energy damage during a rage to all of your bite attacks. That works at level 1 dfa.

Add a level of sohei, and you can rage and no frenzy simultaneously, doing +4d6 at level 2. Add whirling frenzy barb, at level 3 if alignment changes are allowed, for another source of frenzy and a second bite attack at +6d6 energy damage. I reckon you could aim for runescarred berserker/bear warrior and gish it that way.

[Thurbane]

An interesting take - I was unaware of the Furious Inhalation feat. :smallsmile:

Doing some research, came across a few things:


Cyran Avenger doesn't require casting to enter, is full BAB, and advances casting 4/5.
Ruathar doesn't require casting to enter, medium BAB and advances casting 3/3.
Harper Paragon doesn't require casting to enter, medium BAB and advances casting 10/10.

[Gruftzwerg]

Swordsage (unarmed variant) 1 / DFA 4 / Bloodclaw Master 2 / Enlightened Fist 10 / Fist of the Forest 1 / xxx 2

This build works around monks unarmed strike and pushed it up to monk 20 (with the help of a monks belt and the First of the Forest applied last). If you take an arcane progression class for "xxx" you can get a single Dark Invocation.

Sadly the build doesn't hit the BAB 16+ mark. But it does make up for it with the TWF feat line and Bloodclaw Master drops the -2 penalties for that.

Now you need claws. Either by buying a claw weapon or by abusing Humanoid Shape invocation (dunno if there are any with claws..^^). Take Beast Strike feat to add your claw dmg to unarmed strikes. Now you can abuse the "Sizing" enhancement for melee weapons, to size em up to colossal size.

You could also go for an ubercharger build with dipping (the remaining) 2 lvl into Drunken Master which gives you Stagger. The ability allows for any number of direction changes while charging and avoids all AoO for a single Tumble DC15 roll. Since it requires Evasion to enter, you either have to use monk as base class to enter or rely on a ring of evasion.

[Anthrowhale]

Phantom Steed requires two feats to gain as an SLA (Least + Lesser Dragonmark of Passage, locking race to human). This enables a 3-feat entry to Knight Phantom (full BAB, 9/10 casting, d8, ignore ASF in light armor). Something like Duskblade 2/DFA 4/Knight Phantom 10/Abjurant Champion 4 gives you BAB+18 and DFA 17 invocation which pushes damage up to 8d6. You could also do Duskblade 1/DFA 5/Knight Phantom 10/Abjurant Champion 4 to get BAB+17 and DFA 18 which gives an extra invocation at the cost of an extra feat (Combat Casting) for AC entry.

[Thurbane]

Swordsage (unarmed variant) 1 / DFA 4 / Bloodclaw Master 2 / Enlightened Fist 10 / Fist of the Forest 1 / xxx 2

This build works around monks unarmed strike and pushed it up to monk 20 (with the help of a monks belt and the First of the Forest applied last). If you take an arcane progression class for "xxx" you can get a single Dark Invocation.

Sadly the build doesn't hit the BAB 16+ mark. But it does make up for it with the TWF feat line and Bloodclaw Master drops the -2 penalties for that.

Now you need claws. Either by buying a claw weapon or by abusing Humanoid Shape invocation (dunno if there are any with claws..^^). Take Beast Strike feat to add your claw dmg to unarmed strikes. Now you can abuse the "Sizing" enhancement for melee weapons, to size em up to colossal size.

You could also go for an ubercharger build with dipping (the remaining) 2 lvl into Drunken Master which gives you Stagger. The ability allows for any number of direction changes while charging and avoids all AoO for a single Tumble DC15 roll. Since it requires Evasion to enter, you either have to use monk as base class to enter or rely on a ring of evasion.

Interesting, but I was really hoping for BAB +16. Also, not a huge fan of unarmed attack/natural attack builds, but that's more aesthetic reasons than anything.


Phantom Steed requires two feats to gain as an SLA (Least + Lesser Dragonmark of Passage, locking race to human). This enables a 3-feat entry to Knight Phantom (full BAB, 9/10 casting, d8, ignore ASF in light armor). Something like Duskblade 2/DFA 4/Knight Phantom 10/Abjurant Champion 4 gives you BAB+18 and DFA 17 invocation which pushes damage up to 8d6. You could also do Duskblade 1/DFA 5/Knight Phantom 10/Abjurant Champion 4 to get BAB+17 and DFA 18 which gives an extra invocation at the cost of an extra feat (Combat Casting) for AC entry.

Great stuff! :smallsmile:

The more I think about it, the more a Duskblade dip makes sense: it opens up a lot more gish-y PrCs; and also gives MWP and armor proficiency.

It should be relatively easy to get ASF down to a manageable level. And even if not, a lot of invocations have long durations, so I could put them up, then slip into whatever armor I wanted.

DFA 18 "casting" is about as good as it's going to get, to still hit +16 BAB I think. The only significant difference between 18 and 20 is an extra d6 of breath weapon anyhow, which is neither here nor there.

Would be nice to somehow delay DFA 5th level and be able to snag a decent breath effect.

Would Legacy Champion be any good for this type build? If you take 6 levels, you only lose 1 class-progression level and 2 BAB; and 8 levels still only loses 2 BAB, at the cost of an extra class-progression level.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Would be nice to somehow delay DFA 5th level and be able to snag a decent breath effect.

Another class that advances spellcasting could work, you can afford to lose a bit more BAB. Something like Human Paragon, Divine Oracle, Paragnostic Apostle, or Ruathar for just a few levels should do the trick. That helps you qualify for your full BAB classes, then you put DFA 5 later in the build at whatever level you need to get the breath effect you want.

[WhamBamSam]

Another class that advances spellcasting could work, you can afford to lose a bit more BAB. Something like Human Paragon, Divine Oracle, Paragnostic Apostle, or Ruathar for just a few levels should do the trick. That helps you qualify for your full BAB classes, then you put DFA 5 later in the build at whatever level you need to get the breath effect you want.DFA can enter Paragnostic Apostle early if such is your desire for whatever reason, since Endure Exposure is a 3rd level equivalent, despite being a Least Invocation.

Heir of Siberys has medium BAB, gives you 2/3 levels of Invocation progression, and gives you the full 2d6 from Breath of Siberys. Breath of Siberys is also an option if you go the Mark of Passage -> Knight Phantom route, though it's only +1d6 in that case.