Unbreakable and Immovable Net

[Meichrob7]

I’ve got a while thought that an interesting rogue playstyle would be to use the sharpshooter and crossbow master feats, along with a one level dip into fighter. This would let you throw a net from 15ft away (with no disadvantage) and then as a bonus action make a shot with the crossbow.

The downside to this (besides being somewhat complicated and needing 2 feats) is generally that the net is really designed as a low level weapon, it’s DC and AC/Health don’t scale at all and begin to become negligible later on.

The one thing I’ve always thought could combat this would be to make the net Adamantine so that it can’t be broken. While the Xanathars section mostly mentions the effects adamantine has on melee weapons and ammunition (and the net is neither of those) it does explicitly say that adamantine coating can be applied to any weapon.

This forces the enemy to use their action to remove the net which isn’t a huge hassle on their end since the DC is so low, but does eat up their action economy which is nice.

I was recently interested in the echo knight and was checking out various parts of the “Explorers guide to wildmount” when I came across the “Immovable Object” spell.

The spell basically makes an object up to 10lbs impossible to move unless more than 4,000lbs are applied to it, or the enemy takes an action to make a strength check against your spell save DC, and even if they do they can only move the object 10ft at most. You can also choose who this spell effects making the object behave normally for some people and be immovable for others. The spell lasts an hour

So if you cast this spell on an adamantine net and threw it on the enemy they’d be unable to break it without magical attacks, and would be unable to use an action to escape because they need to both spend an action passing the spell save DC and escaping the Net’s natural DC, which would both need to be done on the same turn to be able to remove it.

If the dm is strict about only Graviturgists being able to use the spell you could ignore the rogue thing totally or do some multiclassing to get access to it. There’s also some enemies with multiple actions, teleports, intangibility, or just magical attacks that can break adamantine.

So it’s not totally inescapable but I think it’d be a pretty potent combo.

[MrStabby]

I played something similar once... actually not that similar, but related. It was a 1-shot at level 10 and I picked up Eldritch Knight and conjuration wizard. Conjuration wizard to create the net (a bit of DM discretion here as to if a folded net is more than 3ft along a side).

Now neither the graviturgist no the echo knight were available then and I can see the case for each of these.

My advice is to ask your DM and ask your table how they want to rule things. If you are playing alongside someone who wants to be a grappler then they might not be such a fan of a generous ruling. Likewise your DM might think that this would disrupt the kind of game they want to play. This is the kind of thing it is useful for everyone to have a heads-up on before they finish chosing what character to play.

[Unoriginal]

The one thing I’ve always thought could combat this would be to make the net Adamantine so that it can’t be broken.

Sorry, but adamantine can be broken.

It's literally on the list of materials in the "how do you break items?" DMG rules.

[Meichrob7]

Sorry, but adamantine can be broken.

It's literally on the list of materials in the "how do you break items?" DMG rules.

Oh that’s a section I never saw before, Thanks. So that makes it a much more balanced combo and one that DMs would probably be more inclined to allow.

So the adamantine bumps it’s AC up to 23 and there’s still the restriction on damage type which I’d forgotten so that makes the 5hp actually a lot more durable.

[nickl_2000]

The only problem with this plan is a special rule on the net (copied from DNDBeyond, but it exists in the PhB as well).

"When you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to attack with a net, you can make only one attack regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make."

You have made your one attack with the net, and due to this clause you don't get to use your bonus action to make another attack.

[MrStabby]

The only problem with this plan is a special rule on the net (copied from DNDBeyond, but it exists in the PhB as well).

"When you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to attack with a net, you can make only one attack regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make."

You have made your one attack with the net, and due to this clause you don't get to use your bonus action to make another attack.

That's why I used the eldritch knight. Bonus action net attack and a cantrip is pretty good still. Had I takenthe character furtherithink I would have been adding some rogue on top.

[Meichrob7]

The only problem with this plan is a special rule on the net (copied from DNDBeyond, but it exists in the PhB as well).

"When you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to attack with a net, you can make only one attack regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make."

You have made your one attack with the net, and due to this clause you don't get to use your bonus action to make another attack.

That’s why I mentioned Crossbow expert, you make an attack with the net one handed and then the special crossbow effect triggers.

That one handed attack triggers crossbow expert and allows you to make an attack as a bonus action which doesn’t involve the net so the special rule doesn’t apply.

[nickl_2000]

That’s why I mentioned Crossbow expert, you make an attack with the net one handed and then the special crossbow effect triggers.

That one handed attack triggers crossbow expert and allows you to make an attack as a bonus action which doesn’t involve the net so the special rule doesn’t apply.

I'm not sure I read it the same way as you do. It doesn't say "When you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to attack with a net, you can make only one attack with a net regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make" it says "you can make only one attack." This implies to me that you aren't supposed to make an attack in any way on the same turn as you made an attack with a net.

*shrugs* your reading may vary though, and your table can play it any way you like.

[Meichrob7]

I'm not sure I read it the same way as you do. It doesn't say "When you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to attack with a net, you can make only one attack with a net regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make" it says "you can make only one attack." This implies to me that you aren't supposed to make an attack in any way on the same turn as you made an attack with a net.

*shrugs* your reading may vary though, and your table can play it any way you like.

I’m like 90% sure that the net restriction doesn’t apply to other actions, bonus action or reactions besides the one where you’re attacking with the net. It starts with “when you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to make an attack with a net” so it’s specifically talking about that one action, and since it never specified otherwise it makes sense that the restrictions it then mentions are still in reference to that singular action and not a restriction applied to everything you do that round of combat.

I don’t think it’s just me who has this interpretation either. After a quick google search and looking a couple of forum posts I have yet to see anyone with the interpretation that the restriction applies to all actions, not just the one where the net attack is made.

[CTurbo]

I played a Wood Elf Battlemaster Archer Fighter with a level of War Cleric and Sharpshooter. The character was never strictly meant for using a net, but I found myself using a net quite often especially since the DM homebrewed several far better than normal net options that I could buy or have made for me for lots of $$$. I can't remember prices, but here are a few of the nets I used

1. For a lot of gold, I could buy a bigger stronger net that required a D15 check, had an AC or 15, and needed 15 slashing damage to cut. It also did 1 bludgeoning damage on a hit which doesn't sound like much but allowed it to qualify for the -5/+10 part of sharpshooter.

2. For even more gold, I could buy a net with same stats as above, but added 2d6 Poison or Acid damage on a hit (no save) with repeating 2d6 damage each time a creature began it's turn while restrained.

3. I could buy a net with the same stats as the original net, but could be fired from a heavy crossbow with a range up to 30ft.

Seems like I'm missing one, but yeah with a little imagination, you can have a lot more fun with nets.

[Damon_Tor]

The immovable object spell is broken with or without a net. There's no save and no worn\carried object restriction, which means you could cast it on an enemy's armor or clothes and they would be totally immobilized (and likely unable to attack) with no recourse. The net would only be necessary if the enemy is naked.

[Snownine]

I played a Wood Elf Battlemaster Archer Fighter with a level of War Cleric and Sharpshooter. The character was never strictly meant for using a net, but I found myself using a net quite often especially since the DM homebrewed several far better than normal net options that I could buy or have made for me for lots of $$$. I can't remember prices, but here are a few of the nets I used

1. For a lot of gold, I could buy a bigger stronger net that required a D15 check, had an AC or 15, and needed 15 slashing damage to cut. It also did 1 bludgeoning damage on a hit which doesn't sound like much but allowed it to qualify for the -5/+10 part of sharpshooter.

2. For even more gold, I could buy a net with same stats as above, but added 2d6 Poison or Acid damage on a hit (no save) with repeating 2d6 damage each time a creature began it's turn while restrained.

3. I could buy a net with the same stats as the original net, but could be fired from a heavy crossbow with a range up to 30ft.

Seems like I'm missing one, but yeah with a little imagination, you can have a lot more fun with nets.

What got your dm thinking about so many net varieties? They are one of those things everyone seems to forget they even exist. Do you guys use nets regularly? If they had some more support, like what your dm did, they could be a lot more interesting.

[gloryblaze]

The immovable object spell is broken with or without a net. There's no save and no worn\carried object restriction, which means you could cast it on an enemy's armor or clothes and they would be totally immobilized (and likely unable to attack) with no recourse. The net would only be necessary if the enemy is naked.

This would work with padded or leather armor, but all other armor types weigh more than 10 lbs and this aren’t eligible targets for the spell. You could use it on a weapon or shield to force a creature to abandon said item, but that would just take a free object interaction to let go of (weapon) or an Action to doff (shield).

Still, no save to deny a creature their action and 2 AC is very powerful.

[CTurbo]

What got your dm thinking about so many net varieties? They are one of those things everyone seems to forget they even exist. Do you guys use nets regularly? If they had some more support, like what your dm did, they could be a lot more interesting.

My character used a regular net a few times and we to talking about how nearly useless it is in most circumstances. I asked if a better net could exist and we decided on what we called the "Net 15" which was the first net I mentioned. Later on, I asked if it would be possible to add the poison and/or acid to it. The DM obliged but these were really expensive.

My group was pretty laid back, and homebrew stuff like that was no uncommon.

[Snownine]

My character used a regular net a few times and we to talking about how nearly useless it is in most circumstances. I asked if a better net could exist and we decided on what we called the "Net 15" which was the first net I mentioned. Later on, I asked if it would be possible to add the poison and/or acid to it. The DM obliged but these were really expensive.

My group was pretty laid back, and homebrew stuff like that was no uncommon.

Do you remember about how much the nets cost?

[CTurbo]

Do you remember about how much the nets cost?

I really don't. Seems like the Net 15 was like 50gp and the acid/poison nets were like 100gp. The acid/poison ones were a bit OP so it made sense that they weren't cheap. I think the nets that were shot from crossbow were 5gp each?

For reference the common net is 1gp.

[MrStabby]

So expensive, but not so expensive that you wouldnt invest in them, especially if you had the mending cantrip.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I'm not sure I read it the same way as you do. It doesn't say "When you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to attack with a net, you can make only one attack with a net regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make" it says "you can make only one attack." This implies to me that you aren't supposed to make an attack in any way on the same turn as you made an attack with a net.

*shrugs* your reading may vary though, and your table can play it any way you like.

Isn't it only relevant to attacks with nets?
So you can't use more than one net attack with an action/bonus action or reaction but can make attacks with other weapons.
So fighter 20 used one attack in his action to attack with a net. He have other net on hand but can't attack with the second one so he use his free object interaction to switch to his spear.
He stab 3 times with his spear and one time as a bonus action with the spear butt. The neted enemy attack the fighter friend so he use his reaction to attack him back.

He only attacked one time with a net because that is the net restriction even when he have a second net.


you can make only one attack with a net regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make

Edit:
Some will rule that in the example above the fighter can attack with a net with his reaction.
Some will rule he can use his actions surge for another net attack.

[Crucius]

I'm not sure I read it the same way as you do. It doesn't say "When you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to attack with a net, you can make only one attack with a net regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make" it says "you can make only one attack." This implies to me that you aren't supposed to make an attack in any way on the same turn as you made an attack with a net.

*shrugs* your reading may vary though, and your table can play it any way you like.

I always read it as "no extra attack feature for you". Would be weird if throwing a net on your turn also inhibits you from making opportunity attacks for one round.

Edit: to clarify: I read as that it only prevents you from making extra attacks within the action/bonus action/reaction you spend on making the net attack. Any other attacks in other actions are perfectly fine.

[nickl_2000]

I’m like 90% sure that the net restriction doesn’t apply to other actions, bonus action or reactions besides the one where you’re attacking with the net. It starts with “when you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to make an attack with a net” so it’s specifically talking about that one action, and since it never specified otherwise it makes sense that the restrictions it then mentions are still in reference to that singular action and not a restriction applied to everything you do that round of combat.

I don’t think it’s just me who has this interpretation either. After a quick google search and looking a couple of forum posts I have yet to see anyone with the interpretation that the restriction applies to all actions, not just the one where the net attack is made.


Isn't it only relevant to attacks with nets?
So you can't use more than one net attack with an action/bonus action or reaction but can make attacks with other weapons.
So fighter 20 used one attack in his action to attack with a net. He have other net on hand but can't attack with the second one so he use his free object interaction to switch to his spear.
He stab 3 times with his spear and one time as a bonus action with the spear butt. The neted enemy attack the fighter friend so he use his reaction to attack him back.

He only attacked one time with a net because that is the net restriction even when he have a second net.



Edit:
Some will rule that in the example above the fighter can attack with a net with his reaction.
Some will rule he can use his actions surge for another net attack.

This is one of the problems with 5e in general, there are lots of problems with the phrasing that make it confusing. I tried asking JC what the intent was on this and never got a response on the RAI. To be fair, while I read it as attacking with the net means you don't get other attacks, I think that it's a stupid, stupid rule.

[Yuroch Kern]

I always read it as "no extra attack feature for you". Would be weird if throwing a net on your turn also inhibits you from making opportunity attacks for one round.

Edit: to clarify: I read as that it only prevents you from making extra attacks within the action/bonus action/reaction you spend on making the net attack. Any other attacks in other actions are perfectly fine.

This is as the Sage Advice clarified it. Basically, you toss it, then BA. Or War/Battle Magic, BA toss it. Or they run without Disengage, Reaction toss it. The benefit I believe is too good for Extra Attack to combo with it. Also, a successful net attack is great in a cohesive group, since even a single round of a restrained condition can give the party an edge, even at higher levels.

[Yuroch Kern]

I’ve got a while thought that an interesting rogue playstyle would be to use the sharpshooter and crossbow master feats, along with a one level dip into fighter. This would let you throw a net from 15ft away (with no disadvantage) and then as a bonus action make a shot with the crossbow.

The downside to this (besides being somewhat complicated and needing 2 feats) is generally that the net is really designed as a low level weapon, it’s DC and AC/Health don’t scale at all and begin to become negligible later on.

The one thing I’ve always thought could combat this would be to make the net Adamantine so that it can’t be broken. While the Xanathars section mostly mentions the effects adamantine has on melee weapons and ammunition (and the net is neither of those) it does explicitly say that adamantine coating can be applied to any weapon.

This forces the enemy to use their action to remove the net which isn’t a huge hassle on their end since the DC is so low, but does eat up their action economy which is nice.

I was recently interested in the echo knight and was checking out various parts of the “Explorers guide to wildmount” when I came across the “Immovable Object” spell.

The spell basically makes an object up to 10lbs impossible to move unless more than 4,000lbs are applied to it, or the enemy takes an action to make a strength check against your spell save DC, and even if they do they can only move the object 10ft at most. You can also choose who this spell effects making the object behave normally for some people and be immovable for others. The spell lasts an hour

So if you cast this spell on an adamantine net and threw it on the enemy they’d be unable to break it without magical attacks, and would be unable to use an action to escape because they need to both spend an action passing the spell save DC and escaping the Net’s natural DC, which would both need to be done on the same turn to be able to remove it.

If the dm is strict about only Graviturgists being able to use the spell you could ignore the rogue thing totally or do some multiclassing to get access to it. There’s also some enemies with multiple actions, teleports, intangibility, or just magical attacks that can break adamantine.

So it’s not totally inescapable but I think it’d be a pretty potent combo.

Getting the feats just for it is pretty good. Heck, if you get either for an archery character, you can actually be justified more to carry nets too. It's also worth noting that "coating" the net is more like it is a fine chain. Might have more HP too. I use a mithral net with my Sorcerer, and took Mending if it gets trashed.