Tier for a Paladin with Hunter Spell Progression?

[Palanan]

In Pathfinder, the baseline paladin seems to be pegged around Tier 4, before any optional extras. I’m wondering how this would be affected if the paladin was given a spell progression similar to the hunter.

The most obvious difference is that this variant paladin would gain access to fifth- and sixth-level spells later in the game, but I don’t have much sense of whether this alone would be enough to nudge it up a tier. I’m not aiming for anything specific here, just wondering what the likely ranking of this variant would be.

[legomaster00156]

In general, 6th-level spellcasters come in at tier 3.

[Palanan]

Would that general rule apply to the limited spell list of the paladin?

I know any list of fifth- and sixth-level spells for this paladin would have to be homebrewed, but it would probably be much narrower than the lists for other 6th-level casters. Would that still be enough to kick it up a full tier?

[legomaster00156]

Assuming it's similar to the Cleric spell list of 5th and 6th level spells, yes, it would go up to join the Warpriest in tier 3.

[Palanan]

Very helpful, thanks.

What would you think would be reasonable cleric spells to include in a 6th-level paladin list? I know that's a broad question, but I'm not sure which spells would be paladin-appropriate. I assume self-buffing spells would be favored, but beyond that? Spells like Smite Abomination or Alleviate Corruption seem appropriate, and Wall of Stone seems a little out of the paladin’s wheelhouse, but is there any more rigorous way to determine what spells would be suitable?

[legomaster00156]

I would put both Dictum and Holy Word as 6th-level spells, for sure.

[Eldonauran]

A solid way to judge MOST of the spell level something should be is to look at what level the Paladin is when they get access to that spell, and shift it to be on the corresponding spell level for the new spell progression. Adjust as needed to make sure the spell level is never higher than the normal cleric progression, and you should be just fine.

[Psyren]

I don't know about giving HW + Dictum to paladins, yes it fits alignment wise but the goal of their class is for their power to buff themselves and protect others. I'd be more inclined to discount something like Holy Aura/Shield of Law, Hymn of Peace or Divine Vessel, as well as giving them access to things like Raise Dead and Greater Heroism.

[Elvensilver]

Is their a reason why you specified Hunter Spell Progression, instead of, say, Magus Spell Progression? :smallconfused: The Paladin, as of right now, is a prepared spell caster, other than the hunter. Would you change that, too? That could also influence the Tier, since prepared spellcasters tend to be rated a bit higher.

As for spells, I would also suggest Breath of Life, as a 5th-lvl. spell, so it cannot be put into a wand (Paladins can already do that with the Channel Revival Feat at lvl. 11), Atonement, Disrupting Weapon, Banishment, Greater Restoration (they already get the lesser and normal variant), and maybe Mass Eagles Splendor.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Elvensilver
Is [there] a reason why you specified Hunter Spell Progression, instead of, say, Magus Spell Progression?

Fair question—I was thinking of the mystic ranger, and hunter came to mind as a comparison in Pathfinder.


Originally Posted by Elvensilver
The Paladin, as of right now, is a prepared spell caster, other than the hunter. Would you change that, too?

No, I should’ve clarified that in the OP—this variant would still be a prepared caster.

That said, a spontaneous paladin using hunter spell progression could also be interesting, but that might end up stepping on the oracle’s toes.


Originally Posted by Elvensilver
As for spells, I would also suggest Breath of Life, as a 5th-lvl. spell, so it cannot be put into a wand (Paladins can already do that with the Channel Revival Feat at lvl. 11), Atonement, Disrupting Weapon, Banishment, Greater Restoration (they already get the lesser and normal variant), and maybe Mass Eagles Splendor.

These and the previous spell suggestions are very helpful, keep ‘em coming.

[thelastorphan]

The quick and dirty way to do it would be to make them Spontabeous like the Hunter and give them the same either/or spell gimmick. Allow them to draw from both Paladin and Cleric lists and if a spell appears on both use the lower level. But crafting a list for them specifically, I think HW and Dictum are fine, but like Psyren, the Paladin's focus should be on buffs and healing. Anything that looks like a good buff or support option is fair game. Though it looks like most of the ones that already feel Paladin-y are on their list. Might poke around 3.5 or 3rd party a bit for more inspiration.

[Firebug]

A bit of a minor point, but the only other 6-level caster with full BAB is a Trappings of the Warrior (https://aonprd.com/OccultistImplementsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Trappings %20of%20the%20Warrior) Occultist and they have to give up a school to do so (and have to take 2 other specific schools).

[NightbringerGGZ]

The quick and dirty way to do it would be to make them Spontabeous like the Hunter and give them the same either/or spell gimmick. Allow them to draw from both Paladin and Cleric lists and if a spell appears on both use the lower level. But crafting a list for them specifically, I think HW and Dictum are fine, but like Psyren, the Paladin's focus should be on buffs and healing. Anything that looks like a good buff or support option is fair game. Though it looks like most of the ones that already feel Paladin-y are on their list. Might poke around 3.5 or 3rd party a bit for more inspiration.

I would recommend starting w/ the Inquisitor 5th & 6th level spells and pruning/modifying form there. If you don't have the time/desire those spells should work out just fine for this proposed version of the Paladin.