Dragons as Initiators - How would History change (and how would you optimize them)

[GrayDeath]

The title pretty much spells it out.

Lets say instead of their crippled Sorcerer Casting, Dragons all gained Initiating. Lets for simplicities sake say access only to Thrashing Dragon and Riven Hourglass, and total IL for them would be 1+1/2 HD.

1st: What would change in regards to their internal evolution/politics/etc?

And how much less of an Influence would they have worldwide?


And to sum it up, lets say you have a Dragon with 30HD, access to the abovementioned 2 Disciplines (lets again for simplicity say 9 maneuvers and 3 stances each): How would you optimize (Feats, extra maneuvers, Breath Attack?:

Discuss.

[AvatarVecna]

Needs PF tag.

EDIT: I mean I guess the question is valid for 3.5 too, but the particular initiating asked about makes me think otherwise.

[NigelWalmsley]

Honestly it probably makes them worse. A Dragon is already a physical match for pretty much anything that exists, so they're far betters served by getting utility from their spellcasting than by being slightly better physical combatants.

[Particle_Man]

You might have people want to learn from them.

[Buufreak]

Yea, a dragon full attack is gonna outpace most maneuvers. Why waste a standard on one when breath weapons and bite/claw/claw/wing/wing/tail/(maybe crush) is on the table?

[Quertus]

Meh. Most Dragons "pick" their spells at random, and don't get anything close to "level/CR appropriate abilities". So… it's not really a significant change one way or the other. Just one more suboptimal thing that they won't use unless the optimal course of action is somehow inapplicable

[Gnaeus]

Disagree on all counts.

At most levels dragon utility powers are pretty irrelevant. The dragons I see using magic are tossing off mage armor and shield and the like before battle. The crummy casting they get could be easily replaced at need with UMD. Riven Hourglass
Stance, available to an 8 HD dragon, and giving them +4 ac, +4 initiative, immune to slow and 20% immunity to all magic is way better than say, the first level spells a CR 11 HD 12 young gold dragon gets.

Anyone who thinks an initiator is giving up full attacks has very little experience with POW. That 12 HD (so IL 7 by your system) will be using maneuvers like minute hand (extra attack on a swift) Probability Twist (reroll a failed save as an immediate), time skitter (haste), flickering defense (the guy who just critted can reroll his attack at -4) and Temporal Body Adjustment (negate any 1 negative condition as an immediate). (And im sure there’s something worth taking in thrashing dragon. Riven hourglass is just so good.)

That’s a bit better than mage armor and shield, don’t you think?

[NomGarret]

I can’t see a big change from a lore perspective. They’re apex predators you don’t want to face in a straight fight. Now that’s even more true. Any recorded use of spells can be explained with a wand and a UMD check, especially if they get to keep their SLAs.

[Gnaeus]

A CR 14 HD17 adult red had sorcerer 7 casting. Like the sample:
3rd (5/day)—dispel magic, haste
2nd (7/day)—invisibility, resist energy, see invisibility
1st (7/day)—alarm, grease (DC 14), magic missile, shield, true strike

And honestly, I don’t think that’s a terrible load out for him.

He’s now a 9th level initiator. So he gets all the same stuff as the gold above, including swift action haste and immediate action (I’m going to ignore that spell you just cast on me that I failed my save and you beat my SR).

Now he has relativity burst. That’s take a move action as an immediate. So your fighter steps up to full attack and bamf, he flies away and positions himself to full attack the mage or rogue on his next initiative.

He has Sands of Time Tornado. In which he bites every adjacent opponent (like whirlwind attack) at +6 damage and a DC 18 save or sicken on everyone hit.

If his feats were amended to provide for his new abilities (So flyby attack), he could, fly 15 feet above a PC, Time Thief’s Talons (bite at +25, 2d8+33 damage, dragon heals 18 hp), swift action Hour Hand (bite at +21, 2d8+4d6+15 damage), and fly away in the same round.

For a red dragon, the casting finally overtakes the initiating at CR 19 HD 25. Where he has 7th level spells finally beating 7th level maneuvers. That dragon is a melee monster, who could move into the middle of the party, bite every opponent within its 20 foot reach, twice, at +39 to hit and a DC 22 save or nauseated for a round on every attack, then hour hand for another bite attack, then breathe fire on the PC’s turn as an immediate. But admittedly that’s less utility than limited wish and teleport. Although at HD 25 he can duplicate spells with UMD easier than the caster dragon can duplicate maneuvers.

Again, focusing only on superior riven hourglass. Thrashing dragon is mostly more whirlwind attacks, counters, and bonuses if you hit with multiple natural attacks like rend.

[NigelWalmsley]

Dragons don't need the extra personal combat power. A dragon is already an apex predator. What a dragon needs are solutions to problems it can't solve by biting, clawing, or breath weapon-ing them to death. Magic provides that, maneuvers don't. Even at relatively young ages getting utility options eclipses getting even better at personal combat (UMD means burning resources to solve all your problems, which is not only wasteful but pretty explicitly counter-indicated by the desire to hoard gold). That's especially true if the dragon is smart enough to take levels in Sorcerer at some point, improving their spellcasting progression.

Also, looking at it in terms of CR is missing the point, because none of the questions OP is asking are "would this make them more dangerous as boss fights".

[Gnaeus]

Dragons don't need the extra personal combat power. A dragon is already an apex predator. What a dragon needs are solutions to problems it can't solve by biting, clawing, or breath weapon-ing them to death. Magic provides that, maneuvers don't. Even at relatively young ages getting utility options eclipses getting even better at personal combat (UMD means burning resources to solve all your problems, which is not only wasteful but pretty explicitly counter-indicated by the desire to hoard gold). That's especially true if the dragon is smart enough to take levels in Sorcerer at some point, improving their spellcasting progression.

Also, looking at it in terms of CR is missing the point, because none of the questions OP is asking are "would this make them more dangerous as boss fights".

An ancient dragon is maybe an apex predator. An adult dragon has plenty of things that are above it, singularly or societally, on the power ladder. An adult white dragon gets 2 first level spells. What’s he going to utility with 2 first level spells? Unseen servant? An adult white dragon initiator just went from being the mascot of that tribe of frost giants to being its boss.

Problems it can’t solve by biting, clawing or breath weaponing. Hmm. Like ignoring hostile magic?

Any advantage the dragon gained by taking sorcerer levels would be vastly outclassed by taking initiator levels. BWAHAHAHAHA I’m an adult red dragon sorcerer 4 with 5th level spells at CL 11! Ok. I’m an adult red dragon mystic 4 with 7th level maneuvers at IL 13. I can redirect your wizards attack spells onto your party with a immediate action and a spellcraft check. I greater dispel magic at will. You think the dragon can rock Riven Hourglass? Wait til you see what it can do with Elemental Flux.

Yeah. UMD. I agree, dragons like wealth. They are also highly intelligent. A dragon initiator could UMD a teleport scroll, sack a wizards tower or temple using maneuvers to ignore hostile magic, then UMD a teleport out. Cost 3kgp. Benefit, total value of magic items in a wizard tower or temple.

[NigelWalmsley]

An ancient dragon is maybe an apex predator. An adult dragon has plenty of things that are above it, singularly or societally, on the power ladder.

An adult dragon is almost certainly the strongest thing for a hundred miles in any direction. It's true that there are groups stronger than it, but that's true for any dragon in any setting that contains at least two other dragons its age.


An adult white dragon initiator just went from being the mascot of that tribe of frost giants to being its boss.

No, it's still loosing to an entire tribe of frost giants. Maneuvers are not that good.


Problems it can’t solve by biting, clawing or breath weaponing. Hmm. Like ignoring hostile magic?

Actually, I think you'll find "murder them" is a very effective solution to hostile magic users.


I can redirect your wizards attack spells onto your party with a immediate action and a spellcraft check. I greater dispel magic at will. You think the dragon can rock Riven Hourglass? Wait til you see what it can do with Elemental Flux.

Again, the question was not "what makes a dragon better at beating up a bunch of adventurers", but "what makes a dragon more effective in the world". And guess what? Teleport is a way bigger deal than "ooh, I'm slightly scarier in combat, fear me more, creatures I could already eat in a single bite!".


Yeah. UMD. I agree, dragons like wealth. They are also highly intelligent. A dragon initiator could UMD a teleport scroll, sack a wizards tower or temple using maneuvers to ignore hostile magic, then UMD a teleport out. Cost 3kgp. Benefit, total value of magic items in a wizard tower or temple.

Any dragon could do that. If a giant ball of claws and rage gets to teleport ambush a caster, that caster dies. Against groups of casters, SR is going to be more than sufficient to "ignore hostile magic" from casters that weren't specifically loaded for dragon.

[Edea]

Heh, have them all use the Arcane Swordsage variant.

[Gnaeus]

No, it's still loosing to an entire tribe of frost giants. Maneuvers are not that good

The difference is that now it can beat the tribes shaman who has a few cleric levels, or the chief with some barbarian levels. Maneuvers are absolutely that good. They move it from one of the weaker fighters in the tribe to one of the strongest. Every dragon mount, pet etc just watched its power dynamic shift radically in its favor. Even top level caster types, pre epic, should think twice about badmouthing their dragon minion who can ignore their top level spells and come back with boosted attacks.



Again, the question was not "what makes a dragon better at beating up a bunch of adventurers", but "what makes a dragon more effective in the world". And guess what? Teleport is a way bigger deal than "ooh, I'm slightly scarier in combat, fear me more, creatures I could already eat in a single bite!"

Teleport isn’t a big deal at all. An adult white dragon flies over 45mph. It could fly anywhere it could reach with a teleport in under a day. (Oh, am I fatigued? Hey! That’s a condition!) The only thing it needs teleport for is a last minute escape. And a scroll should handle those once a decade needs just fine.

And again, an adult dragon is CR 10-14. There are a a ton of things it couldn’t beat. The initiator dragon isn’t just optimized to beat adventuring parties, it’s optimized to beat mid sized cities which have some low teen NPC types leading them. It can’t be effectively disabled, and its worst case scenario has it fly off for a minute, recover all its maneuvers, and return. Did I mention the maneuvers that let it heal as it eats spells that target it? The same optimization that lets it beat an adventuring party also lets it beat a band of drow. Or Mind Flayers. Or a pair of Rocs. Or an outsider. Or a lich. You know, anything that could challenge it for its territory or hoard or be likely to possess valuable loot.

Some of the maneuvers that I mentioned are better at taking out small armies than PCs. There are a lot of (kill every mook within reach) powers in those 2 disciplines, and the big dragons have good reach. I can imagine fights like
1. Breath weapon at a group of soldiers, fly away
2. Fly back into a large group, kill them all with a maneuver
2a enemy ranged begins firing, immediate action fly away.
3. Fly back into a large group, kill them all with a maneuver.
3a eat some arrows, but with bend with the wind stance, get +2 AC per miss until AC in the 40s, then move 5 feet/missed arrow to reposition. I bet mooks stop firing when you get within range.
4 breath weapon at largest remaining group. Fly away.
Recover maneuvers, repeat next minute.

As far as combat utility goes, initiators can swap out known maneuvers way more easily than sorcerers can. The dragon could have different maneuvers and stances for chilling in lair, anti caster, or anti army use.



Any dragon could do that. If a giant ball of claws and rage gets to teleport ambush a caster, that caster dies. Against groups of casters, SR is going to be more than sufficient to "ignore hostile magic" from casters that weren't specifically loaded for dragon

Any Caster dragon who does that regularly will die before he ever gets old. An adult dragon has an SR between 21-25. That’s about even odds against the top wizard or priest (assuming they aren’t CL optimized. Could be worse). 3 good saves, but the adult red probably hasn’t hit (fail on a 1 level) on even his best save, fort, against a 10+ level caster. And if he fails once, he probably dies to most SOL effects.

An initiator, on the other hand, can roll those dice every day. The first time he fails a save against a spell that beat his SR, he nopes it out of existence no roll. The second time he redirects it to the wizard. The third time in 3 rounds that he fails a save against something that beat SR he actually has to reroll the save, so tiny chance of failure. Between SR, good saves, and maneuvers, he can probably fight 3-4 reasonable casters at once for a few rounds without any significant statistical risk. (2 fail SR, 2 saves, only in trouble if he fails both, with good dragon saves) (if he took PoW feats he can do this even better with Riven Hourglass Rewind, expending low level counters to suppress conditions until you have the actions to Temporal Body Adjustment them away) (RH also, btw, gets the stance that lets you take a free immediate action counter every round, so really we could counter twice, or counter without losing our swift, if we don’t want to use the earlier 20% chance for hostile magic not to affect us and other benefits stance).

And since we are in PF there are plenty of casters with SUs that bypass SR altogether. Any witch 10 could have no SR SoD at wills. Oh, now I take 1con/minute until death? I think I’d like to just Nope that condition, thanks.

The ancient + red might be better with spells, although given that its major challenges are all casters it might not. (If it’s too stingy to use a teleport scroll, limited wish won’t help it much). But even a Great Wyrm white should probably take the 7th level maneuvers over 6th level spells.

And let’s not forget all the things that giant pile of HD could be doing with its feats. We want utility? Let’s get some Veiled moon tricks. You know, some short range at Will teleports, at will incorporeality. Got minions? Radiant Dawn. Social butterfly? The things an initiator can do with intimidate are sick, starting with bypassing fear immunity, which is pretty good for a dragon with a fear aura and 20+ ranks intimidate. We have more good options than we have feats on our 25 HD wyrm. You could even optimize your alternate form, for those dragons which get that (or which take the DSP feat to get it, since we are deep diving the DSP stuff.)

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I'm going to assume you meant "what kind of worldbuilding could be done with this concept" rather than the "is this more optimal than casting" that the thread has become.

Nearly every martial discipline known to humanoids originated with the Great Masters. Ancient, gigantic, and unparalleled in wisdom and might, these skilled draconic practitioners of the martial arts have had centuries uncounted to hone their art and pass it along to the rare few students they might deem worthy. Kobolds are mostly monks and martial initiators in this world, following the traditions of their greater relatives in secluded mountain colonies

[GrayDeath]

Please keep it civil and friendly, people!

And yes, my main directionw as, as written in the OP, how that would change History, the World as it is, and THEN specific Dragons, in my example 30HD, 18 Maneuvers, 6 Stances, split between Thrashing Dragon and Riven Hourglass.

So please either keep it more general/focussed on History, Lore and such, or optimize the heck out of the actual example I made?

Vastly appreciated!

[Gnaeus]

Lore wise I would just expect dragons to be dominant sooner, in whatever methods they prefer. Thematically, the difference between a dragon in dragon or humanoid form using sorcery versus maneuvers (especially SU maneuvers like RH) is minimal. I’d expect good dragons to acquire silver crane, evil ones to borrow black Seraph or Eternal Guardian, sneaky types to get access to maneuvers that make them incorporeal like Veiled Moon. Leader types to go for Golden Lion or Radiant Dawn. The biggest lore difference I would expect is seeing more dragon ruled cities, tribes etc. just because they will get stronger quicker. The biggest ones won’t change much or will be downgraded. But the Young-Old dragons will top their ecologies faster. Beat out other top predators sooner. Be ready to engage (oppose or control) regional organizations sooner. They might have leadership positions in those POW discipline organizations if you have those in your game. Like the black thorn knights and empyreal guardians are stuffed full of baby dragons. Solitary types would be less cautious. Social types will bargain from stronger positions. You might see them a bit more eager to get subordinate casters to work for them, for the utility effects that are harder to acquire. But they can already do most of the things I see on typical dragon spell lists, maybe with extra feat investment, but a big double helping of beat down. They might be more paranoid of other dragons, since their threats just went up also.

The weaker casters, like whites and blacks, would be comparatively stronger compared to the stronger casters. Like the difference between adult white versus red dragons would be 2 initiator levels, 4th versus 5th level maneuvers, instead of first level versus 7th level sorcerer casting. The white is still weaker, but much closer, with a lot more selectable options to employ. That would have to change how other dragons perceive them.

[NigelWalmsley]

The difference is that now it can beat the tribes shaman who has a few cleric levels, or the chief with some barbarian levels.

Wait a second, wouldn't our classed Ice Giants just take Path of War options too? If it's really better than casting, it seems odd they'd settle for anything else.


Teleport isn’t a big deal at all. An adult white dragon flies over 45mph. It could fly anywhere it could reach with a teleport in under a day.

Teleport grants strategic and tactical surprise. If you fly in on your targets, that gives them time to arm up against you.


Did I mention the maneuvers that let it heal as it eats spells that target it?

You might want to start figuring out what maneuvers that dragon is actually taking if you're going to just list off all the things Path of War does. I'm not just listing out all the 5th level spells that exist as an argument casting is a better value proposition.


Recover maneuvers, repeat next minute.

I'm confused how this is supposed to be superior to Frightful Presence, which is always on, or a Breath Weapon that recharges every couple of rounds. "Army" is absolutely nowhere on the list of things Dragons have a problem with.


Any Caster dragon who does that regularly will die before he ever gets old. An adult dragon has an SR between 21-25. That’s about even odds against the top wizard or priest (assuming they aren’t CL optimized. Could be worse).

It seems bold to assume that every temple is defended by an 11th level Cleric. Major ones, perhaps, but those would be targets of correspondingly older dragons, and have the resources to hold the dragon off even if it had opted for martial maneuvers. A typical temple is capping out at a 6th or 7th level head priest, who's struggling to beat CR, and not fielding anything particularly dangerous in the even that he does. A lone Wizard might be higher level, but is also going to have less support to stop him from getting shredded round one -- a dragon in melee range is game over for him whether it has maneuvers or not.


The ancient + red might be better with spells, although given that its major challenges are all casters it might not. (If it’s too stingy to use a teleport scroll, limited wish won’t help it much). But even a Great Wyrm white should probably take the 7th level maneuvers over 6th level spells.

Last I checked, Planar Binding was still a 6th level spell. Maneuvers are nice, but I'm pretty sure "not being there" is still the best defense against getting killed there.

[Gnaeus]

Wait a second, wouldn't our classed Ice Giants just take Path of War options too? If it's really better than casting, it seems odd they'd settle for anything else

Just because dragons use PoW doesn’t mean every member of every race does. Why are there swashbucklers? Or Adepts? If part of Dragons get POW is that all tier 4+ classes are replaced that’s a vastly different world assumption.

Oh, and it’s not that maneuvers are better than casting. It’s that a relatively advanced maneuver set on a combat beast is better than delayed casting. A wizard 9 may be better than a mystic 9. That doesn’t mean that a red dragon with 5th level maneuvers won’t stomp one with third level spells. For that matter, many 5th level maneuvers work better in the claws of a 17 HD 17 BAB red dragon than a 9th level warlord. The counters are similar but the strikes and boosts are much stronger.



Teleport grants strategic and tactical surprise. If you fly in on your targets, that gives them time to arm up against you

Not really. There’s what, a couple of rounds that you could reasonably be spotted before you could engage, assuming the enemy mage is staring at the sky?

So you are presumably scrying on your intended target. So if the enemy cleric/wizard makes a will save, they know they are being scried on. So you waste 2 spells for a no better result.



You might want to start figuring out what maneuvers that dragon is actually taking if you're going to just list off all the things Path of War does. I'm not just listing out all the 5th level spells that exist as an argument casting is a better value proposition

I kinda can’t do that. I know their initiator level but not their progression of maneuvers known, readied, the refresh mechanism or when they trade out. If you want me to pretend they have levels in a class of my choice I will. But if I pick a class you will fault me for picking a class so they are kind of generic initiators until I know more.



It seems bold to assume that every temple is defended by an 11th level Cleric. Major ones, perhaps, but those would be targets of correspondingly older dragons, and have the resources to hold the dragon off even if it had opted for martial maneuvers. A typical temple is capping out at a 6th or 7th level head priest, who's struggling to beat CR, and not fielding anything particularly dangerous in the even that he does. A lone Wizard might be higher level, but is also going to have less support to stop him from getting shredded round one -- a dragon in melee range is game over for him whether it has maneuvers or not

It seems bolder to assume that it wouldn’t. But very well, if you want to concede that the caster dragon only attacks temples with 7th level priests and single mages, then my point still stands. I’ll happily use a scroll (or just fly all night) to a BIGGER temple, with more and higher level characters, and take more loot from their higher level bodies. Since your argument isn’t that you can fight equally well, it’s that I didn’t find a big enough target on my first try.



Last I checked, Planar Binding was still a 6th level spell. Maneuvers are nice, but I'm pretty sure "not being there" is still the best defense against getting killed there.

Last I checked, most campaigns lore doesn’t assume that the average Wiz 11 and Sor 12 is projecting from the astral plane, so I see no reason to assume the average dragon would be either. If used in a more mundane fashion I’m not sure what HD 12 bound critter is a realistic threat to a CR 18 25HD initiating dragon. Planar Binding, again, is super amazing on a wizard 11. Even if used basically RAI, with limited creatures and costs associated. He can summon multiple casters each tougher than his teams fighter. On a 25HD dragon, spending 3 spells known and presumably bargaining money for small fry seems kinda weaksauce. Unless you are in some kind of tippyverse type scenario in which all wizard 11s spontaneously acheive godhood with planar Binding loops (in which case, again, it isn’t the dragon that’s changing the lore, it’s the broken spell) I’d probably rather have the maneuvers. Especially when, as in this case, you have higher level maneuvers. In this case, maybe Beat the Clock, to let me take an extra standard action interrupting my enemy’s turn. That seems pretty broken in the level 17+ game of rocket tag.

[Ramza00]

Looks at the Path of War Prestige Classes and specifically the Mage Hunter.

Base Attack Bonus: +3
Skills: Acrobatics 2 ranks, Heal 2 ranks, Spellcraft 5 ranks, Stealth 2 ranks
Feats: Improved Initiative, Step Up
Languages: Draconic
Maneuvers: Ability to use 2nd level maneuvers, including at least one strike and one stance.
Special: Must read the Grimoire Serpentis Ferra, or study with a willing instructor who has done so. Reading the Grimoire requires one full week of uninterrupted study, and the ability to read Draconic. Learning from a willing instructor requires four weeks of training.

So all the dragons, even the wyrmlings with the exception of the white dragon have 4 HD or more, thus Wyrmling HD4 (or more) + Mystic 1 + Mage Hunter will be in the Mage Hunter Prestige Class and gets 6th level spells at lvl 10, 5th level at 8, 4th level at 6, and so on. In addition to fully advancing your IL with this prestige class.

-----

So yeah I will see lots of Dragons that focus on Boosts, Counters, and Stances, but also a wide variety of options. Some dragons will go into the prestige class I mentioned gaining arcane magic to compliment their maneuvers. And other dragons will do other things.

For some reason I also forsee some Dragons doing Radiant Dawn for while it focuses on healing there are also some awesome abilities that boost initiative, help you counterspell other people, dispel magic, attack at 680+ feet range with a burst type attack, etc.

Likewise I forsee other dragons doing Fool's Errand, aka I lock you and then carry you away for me the dragon likes to capture Damsels in Distress and store them in a tower till a knight with his trusted steed shows up. (Fool's errand at higher levels also can replicate other disciplines.)

4 levels of Zealot gives you Echoes of Steel and makes you psionic so you can get a psicrystal, now you can get extra actions when your psicrystal uses Gift of Time from Riven Hourglass.

-----

Sidenote did DSP ever release those Maneuver Potions called Draughts or something that allowed you to temporary know maneuvers much how like Wizards can use scrolls or Fighters can use potions?

[Asmotherion]

The title pretty much spells it out.

Lets say instead of their crippled Sorcerer Casting, Dragons all gained Initiating. Lets for simplicities sake say access only to Thrashing Dragon and Riven Hourglass, and total IL for them would be 1+1/2 HD.

1st: What would change in regards to their internal evolution/politics/etc?

And how much less of an Influence would they have worldwide?


And to sum it up, lets say you have a Dragon with 30HD, access to the abovementioned 2 Disciplines (lets again for simplicity say 9 maneuvers and 3 stances each): How would you optimize (Feats, extra maneuvers, Breath Attack?:

Discuss.

Sorcerer casting is fine, it's not that cripled.

And I doupt much would change; Spellcasting aside, a dragon is still a dragon.

Access to magic (trope aside, I mean mechanically) is more to ensure that a Dragon is still a threat even if you cast a barrage of wards and abjurations, which can be dispelled or ignored. And, as masterfully illustrated in OoTS, a dragon in his own AMF is one of the most threatening things in D&D.

[PraxisVetli]

AFB, but isn't there a sovereign archetype that does exactly this for Tiger Claw?

[Efrate]

Yes. Battle dragons in 3.5 from an eberron book iirc. Mention riven hourglass and thrashing dragon makes this PF however.

Most DSP initiators can keep up with casters pretty well through most levels and are potentally better early and lower mid levels. You would have more dragons because less could prey on them when they are young, and fights for territory would be intense and fairly regular I would think.

Each of the disciplines probably has an old master that's a dragon and pilgrimage to meet and learn from them would be undertaken by many martial characters. I would assume there a fewer non initiation classes because the pinnacle of martial power is known to be learnable and mostfoghtery types would at least attempt to learn.

Or initating is super rare and nearly unknown and dragon fighting styles are a secret taught to no mortals. Either way can make in interesting story.

[PraxisVetli]

Yes. Battle dragons in 3.5 from an eberron book iirc. Mention riven hourglass and thrashing dragon makes this PF however.

Most DSP initiators can keep up with casters pretty well through most levels and are potentally better early and lower mid levels. You would have more dragons because less could prey on them when they are young, and fights for territory would be intense and fairly regular I would think.

Each of the disciplines probably has an old master that's a dragon and pilgrimage to meet and learn from them would be undertaken by many martial characters. I would assume there a fewer non initiation classes because the pinnacle of martial power is known to be learnable and mostfoghtery types would at least attempt to learn.

Or initating is super rare and nearly unknown and dragon fighting styles are a secret taught to no mortals. Either way can make in interesting story.

Yeah, I know it's PF because of PoW; I was merely pointing it out because crunch-wise, at least, it provides a point of reference.