Monk v Death Knight

[ProsecutorGodot]

In an upcoming session we've made plans to have our Monk challenge a Death Knight to a duel in an attempt to have said Death Knight seek atonement for foolishly seeking power from darkness. We believe that this might work... Possibly.

But aside from the narrative pitfalls, there's the mechanical one. I'm not 100% confident that our Monk will have great odds against the Death Knight. I will provide as much details of the Monk's abilities as I can (it's not my character, I can only share what I know) and perhaps some of the more crunch/mathematical minded users can tell me if the odds are even greater than 0%.

Swiftstride Shifter Monk - Open Hand level 18 (roughly 140 hit points, will have 24 Temp HP at the start of the fight)

Ability Scores:12/20/14/10/22/12
Feats:Mobile, Alert, Observant
Magic Items:
-Vorpal Sword (flavored as a Kukri and allowed as a monk weapon, although I doubt this Death Knight will be subject to the instant death effect)
-Insignia of Claws
-Polka Dot Rain Boots (if the Monk runs a full uninterrupted circle around an enemy she gains an additional attack for Flurry of Blows)
-Eye of Kombat (Don't know the specifics of this item, but it marks a target for death, preventing them from attacking other targets until they or the Monk dies, the Monk's unarmed strike die increases to 1d12, more bonuses if the target is killed although those aren't relevant)
-Cloak of Protection
-Bracers of Defense
AC: Should be 24

Worth noting that the Death Knight will likely be tuned up a bit, for the sake of simplicity assume it has at least 30 to 40 more hit points and +1 to AC, attack and damage rolls.

Is it possible? Is there anything we can do to improve the odds without directly intervening?

[MaxWilson]

In an upcoming session we've made plans to have our Monk challenge a Death Knight to a duel in an attempt to have said Death Knight seek atonement for foolishly seeking power from darkness. We believe that this might work... Possibly.

But aside from the narrative pitfalls, there's the mechanical one. I'm not 100% confident that our Monk will have great odds against the Death Knight. I will provide as much details of the Monk's abilities as I can (it's not my character, I can only share what I know) and perhaps some of the more crunch/mathematical minded users can tell me if the odds are even greater than 0%.

Swiftstride Shifter Monk - Open Hand level 18 (roughly 140 hit points, will have 24 Temp HP at the start of the fight)

Ability Scores:12/20/14/10/22/12
Feats:Mobile, Alert, Observant
Magic Items:
-Vorpal Sword (flavored as a Kukri and allowed as a monk weapon, although I doubt this Death Knight will be subject to the instant death effect)
-Insignia of Claws
-Polka Dot Rain Boots (if the Monk runs a full uninterrupted circle around an enemy she gains an additional attack for Flurry of Blows)
-Eye of Kombat (Don't know the specifics of this item, but it marks a target for death, preventing them from attacking other targets until they or the Monk dies, the Monk's unarmed strike die increases to 1d12, more bonuses if the target is killed although those aren't relevant)
-Cloak of Protection
-Bracers of Defense
AC: Should be 24

Worth noting that the Death Knight will likely be tuned up a bit, for the sake of simplicity assume it has at least 30 to 40 more hit points and +1 to AC, attack and damage rolls.

Is it possible? Is there anything we can do to improve the odds without directly intervening?

Looks straightforward frankly. Empty Body for Invisibility, and you've got Evasion and Diamond Soul to deal with the orb, so the Death Knight is pretty much reduced to attacking ineffectually at +11 to hit with disadvantage vs. AC 24, for 1d10+5 slashing plus 4d8 necrotic, and the Monk has resistance to both components of its attack.

I plug avg 3.att 24 +11d (1d10+5)/2+(4d8/2) into the DPR calculator here (https://shiningsword.blob.core.windows.net/public/v0.3/index.html#battle) and voila! the monk can expect to take about 6.69 points of damage on average, every round against the Death Knight, once Empty Body is up. It's almost totally ineffectual.

It has a fairly crummy Con save too and no Legendary Resistance, so Stunning Strike or Quivering Palm will destroy it. (I mean "destroy" colloquially but Quivering Palm has a good chance of doing both.)

Frankly it looks to me like the Death Knight is going to get pwned unless it somehow gets Truesight, and even then it's going to lose. The best thing you can do with the other PCs is make sure there's no cheating. Maybe insist on Dispel Magic on both parties before the duel.

Edit: oh, forgot to account for tuning up. If I give the Death Knight an extra +3 to hit and damage plus an extra 2d8 of necrotic damage on each hit, then it's

avg 3.att 24 +14d (1d10+8)/2+(6d8/2)

yielding 18.04 DPR, which means the Death Knight is still getting pwned even before accounting for Stunning Strike, Open Palm, Mobile, etc.

[ProsecutorGodot]

SNIP

Well that's certainly a lot more one sided than I expected. Just as a hypothetical, would this still be such a stomping if the Monk opts not to use Empty Body? We've been level 18 for a few sessions now and I haven't seen it used yet as a combat tool.

[Evaar]

Well that's certainly a lot more one sided than I expected. Just as a hypothetical, would this still be such a stomping if the Monk opts not to use Empty Body? We've been level 18 for a few sessions now and I haven't seen it used yet as a combat tool.

Monk still has Patient Defense as an option. If they play it carefully, with an AC that high, and have Ki to spare, they can completely control the pace of the combat by Dodging when the knight isn't stunned and taking him apart when he is. Or just waiting for a crit.

[MaxWilson]

Well that's certainly a lot more one sided than I expected. Just as a hypothetical, would this still be such a stomping if the Monk opts not to use Empty Body? We've been level 18 for a few sessions now and I haven't seen it used yet as a combat tool.

I suggest you play around (https://shiningsword.blob.core.windows.net/public/v0.3/index.html#battle) with the numbers yourself a bit. Remove the "d" to remove disadvantage, and remove the /2 to eliminate resistance.

Unbuffed death knight, no Empty Body or Patient Defense: avg 3.att 24 +11 (1d10+5)+(4d8): 37.72

Buffed death knight, same conditions: avg 3.att 24 +14 (1d10+8)+(6d8): 71.70

Empty Body is a hugely impactful ability both for the disadvantage and the damage resistance, and to a lesser extent for the immunity to spells like Hold Person and Banishment, and the advantage on the Monk's own melee attacks. Without Empty Body I think the Monk would still win through mobility and tactics, but Empty Body turns it into a curbstomp.

Frankly I am looking forward to the look on the Death Knight's undead face. :)

[ProsecutorGodot]

Frankly I am looking forward to the look on the Death Knight's undead face. :)

Well, unless our session plans fall apart (unfortunately high probability thanks to current events) I'll have news for you tomorrow afternoon on whether we managed an epic win.

[MaxWilson]

Well, unless our session plans fall apart (unfortunately high probability thanks to current events) I'll have news for you tomorrow afternoon on whether we managed an epic win.

This might be one of those rare cases where it even makes sense to talk to the enemy during combat instead of attacking the whole time. I think your ideal outcome for this fight is not "Death Knight hits 0 HP" but rather "Death Knight breaks down crying in frustration, leading to realization, leading to remorse."

Also, once you have him stunned, consider taking and shattering his weapon (DMG Disarm rules or PHB 193 Improvising An Action rules), that necrotic longsword thing. (Unlike some monsters, Death Knights don't have traits adding damage to all their weapon attacks, so it seems to be a property of the unholy weapon. You might make a point of examining the weapon beforehand to make sure, asking the DM if it seems unholy or special.) Not only does that further neuter him tactically, it could be important symbolically and psychologically.

I imagine something like this:

Round 1, activate Empty Body.

Rounds 2 and 3: keep a conversational tone, and say things meant to affect him emotionally, maybe talking about his deeds and consequences and morality.

Rounds 4 and 5: show him your power. Beat him up some, show that you're not just empty words. Take almost half his HP, stun him and land a Quivering Palm.

Round 6: while he is stunned, take his weapon, examine it critically, and say "This thing is not good for you, my brother. It is of darkness."

Round 7: Shatter the weapon. (If you took the weapon via DMG Disarm you may be able to do this on Round 6 instead.) Speak calmly of forgiveness and invite your opponent back into the light.

Round 8: if he persists in opposition, activate Quivering Palm and he dies. (With high probability. Otherwise you can still just kill him with more unarmed strikes or a second Quivering Palm, but this way would be more dramatic and emotionally powerful.)

[Unoriginal]

Doesn't Quivering Palm do necrotic damage? I thought the Death Knight was immune.

Still the magic items the Monk has more than make up for it.

[MaxWilson]

Doesn't Quivering Palm do necrotic damage? I thought the Death Knight was immune.

Still the magic items the Monk has more than make up for it.

It only does necrotic damage on an successful save. On a failed save, you are simply reduced to 0 HP, full stop, no damage type.

[Unoriginal]

It only does necrotic damage on an successful save. On a failed save, you are simply reduced to 0 HP, full stop, no damage type.

Fair, and thanks. In that case I would use Stunning Strike to try and shave any extra Legendary Resistances the buffed up Death Knight might have before going for the Quivering Palm.

[MeimuHakurei]

The Death Knight can counter uses of Empty Body by having 5 castings of Banishment, each of which will hold off the monk for long enough for Empty Body to expire. The risk you're running into is that the use of Stunning Strike, Diamond Soul rerolls etc. is taking up your Ki points - and you're totally boned if you deplete them too soon.

[Unoriginal]

The Death Knight can counter uses of Empty Body by having 5 castings of Banishment, each of which will hold off the monk for long enough for Empty Body to expire. The risk you're running into is that the use of Stunning Strike, Diamond Soul rerolls etc. is taking up your Ki points - and you're totally boned if you deplete them too soon.

That's assuming Banishment hits 5 times. Any time it doesn't the Death Knight is getting hammered at.

[AdAstra]

Also, you need to see the target to use Banishment. So the invisible Monk is untargetable anyway.

[Unoriginal]

Also, you need to see the target to use Banishment. So the invisible Monk is untargetable anyway.

True, I had forgotten about that.



All in all accepting to fight a Monk in single combat is a terrible idea. Doubly so for an Open Hand Monk.

[J-H]

Yep. I agree. Watch out for the DK having something simple like True Sight or See Invisibility, though.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Well, unfortunately the session was cancelled because both the DM and Monk's player couldn't make it. Regardless, lots of useful information in this thread that I'll have to go over the Monk's player at another time with.

[MaxWilson]

All in all accepting to fight a Monk in single combat is a terrible idea. Doubly so for an Open Hand Monk.

To be fair, accepting to fight a CR 17+ Death Knight in single combat is normally also a terrible idea, so the Death Knight may have had reason to be overconfident. (Does he even know it's a Monk, or does he just think it's a lightly-armored warrior/scout?) Note that the OP was clearly afraid the Death Knight would win handily. IMO that makes the fight dramatically plausible, especially since Empty Body is effectively a secret weapon which the monk has (deliberately or not) never used before, in public or otherwise.

Also, I wouldn't count on the Death Knight necessarily playing fair and keeping it 1v1. The rest of the party should be alert for minor or major treachery.


Yep. I agree. Watch out for the DK having something simple like True Sight or See Invisibility, though.

I wouldn't call either of those "simple." True Sight is pretty tough to acquire (6th level for the spell, or a rare Gem of Seeing which requires you to peer through the gem to use it), and See Invisibility is a self-buff not normally available to Paladins. There are ways it could offset advantage/disadvantage (e.g. magical darkness), but that still wouldn't be as good as Truesight or See Invisibility because spells like Hold Person would still be off the table.

Yes, definitely watch out for them, but both of those are also fairly large deviations from the normal rules so I wouldn't expect that to happen often, unless your DM is known for doing that often.

[Unoriginal]

Well, unfortunately the session was cancelled because both the DM and Monk's player couldn't make it. Regardless, lots of useful information in this thread that I'll have to go over the Monk's player at another time with.

Well, that's a bummer, but at least it's only reported.

Would you mind telling us a bit more about the events, ex: where the fight is happening? Or who the Death Knight is?


To be fair, accepting to fight a CR 17+ Death Knight in single combat is normally also a terrible idea, so the Death Knight may have had reason to be overconfident. (Does he even know it's a Monk, or does he just think it's a lightly-armored warrior/scout?) Note that the OP was clearly afraid the Death Knight would win handily. IMO that makes the fight dramatically plausible, especially since Empty Body is effectively a secret weapon which the monk has (deliberately or not) never used before, in public or otherwise.

Oh sure, this is basically the D&D equivalent of Brainaic-Luthor vs the Flash in Justice League Unlimited, in term of power if not in the events themselves.

It's what makes it such a great fight setup, though, IMO. The thematic weight! The drama! The world shaking with each punch!




Also, I wouldn't count on the Death Knight necessarily playing fair and keeping it 1v1. The rest of the party should be alert for minor or major treachery.

"A duel just between you, me and my guards." An absolute classic.



I must admit that if I were the Monk player I would find it hard to resist attempting to sunder the Death Knight's sword and force him into a hand-to-hand duel.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Well, that's a bummer, but at least it's only reported.

Would you mind telling us a bit more about the events, ex: where the fight is happening? Or who the Death Knight is?

We're playing a fairly altered and buffed up version of Dungeon of the Mad Mage, DM has (I think) created a side quest line to "fix" Shadowdusk Hold, so we're going to be trying to fight each of the two Death Knights there individually.

That's the main reason I'm concerned about the narrative aspects of our goal here, most of the members of the Shadowdusk family that we've encountered are completely insane and I (as a player) am not sure that my Paladin's new obsession to help this ancient noble family line is even possible. We do have backing from the open lord of Waterdeep in this, she at least wants news on what exactly happened to them to begin with and this could at least result in information for that even if the larger plan fails.


Also, I wouldn't count on the Death Knight necessarily playing fair and keeping it 1v1. The rest of the party should be alert for minor or major treachery.
I'll admit, I have no idea if the Death Knight will have an entourage when we find him but I am fairly confident that if we do find him alone we can trap him in a Forcecage/Wall of Force* with our Monk.
*If the layout of the dungeon isn't favorable to trapping the two of them, we can trap our remaining 3 party members, possibly with any mooks, to ensure we are safe and that we can't interfere.

[CTurbo]

A level 18 Monk, using Empty Body, should be able to defeat a Death Knight pretty easily.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say a Death Knight would be nearly helpless against this Monk while under the effects of Empty Body. Nearly all of it's bread and butter spells require it to see the target. You could kite him with attacks and then backing away each round so he wouldn't even be able to get to you to even attack you with disadvantage unless he got lucky. I can see him panicking and trying Destructive Wave twice and using his HellFire Orb out of pure desperation. Honestly this isn't even fair. And people hate on Monks for being underpowered....

It would be a much more interesting fight if the Monk never uses Empty Body. I think this would tip the favor to the Death Knight but it would still be close.

[MaxWilson]

A level 18 Monk, using Empty Body, should be able to defeat a Death Knight pretty easily.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say a Death Knight would be nearly helpless against this Monk while under the effects of Empty Body. Nearly all of it's bread and butter spells require it to see the target. You could kite him with attacks and then backing away each round so he wouldn't even be able to get to you to even attack you with disadvantage unless he got lucky. I can see him panicking and trying Destructive Wave twice and using his HellFire Orb out of pure desperation. Honestly this isn't even fair. And people hate on Monks for being underpowered....

It would be a much more interesting fight if the Monk never uses Empty Body. I think this would tip the favor to the Death Knight but it would still be close.

Let's say it's a level 17 monk (no Empty Body) with no magic items. There is still Patient Defense and the Mobile feat plus Diamond Soul to defend against Hold Person. There is still Stunning Strike and Quivering Palm. The monk has to use tactics but the Death Knight is still going to lose for sure unless it's a cage match (no kiting), and even then the monk is still heavily favored to win, I think. I haven't run a simulation but that's my intuition from experience.

Empty Body at monk 18 is a huge power boost and turns it into a curb stomp.