Curbing Hexblade

[Nagog]

So I've been giving a lot of thought over the past few weeks to the game-breaking capacity of the Hexblade. I think the class has some good potential, but I've come to really dislike it as it instantly overshadows every other Gish build in both damage output and spellcasting capacity. So as I've been looking for something to bring it back into the fold of "Balanced Subclasses" without taking away it's flavor, I've found the only method I can think of is to remove Hexblade's Curse entirely and reduce the weapon proficiency to Simple Weapons (as Pact of the Blade already covers Martial Weapon Proficiency). What are your thoughts on this change?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Are you looking at Hexblade as a dip, or as a multiclassed or single-class character?

It honestly does get too many things at 1st level, compared to the PHB patrons. I'd make it pick between Hexblade's Curse and Hex Warrior, but that choice to switches to Hexblade's Curse permanently if the character ever has more levels in another class than his Warlock level.

[DarknessEternal]

The designers have explicitly stated they don't want Hexblade tied to Pact of the Blade.

You need to consider what you're trying to rob from the class. You can't make Hexblade worse without considering the class. 20 levels of Hexblade is a trash class.

[kazaryu]

I think the class has some good potential, but I've come to really dislike it as it instantly overshadows every other Gish build in both damage output and spellcasting capacity.


in...spell casting capacity...when compared to full casters? no. unless you're doing ALOT of encounters per day (which, hey more power to you thats one way to balance full casters) the warlock shouldn't outshice full casters. it might outshine half casters in casting ability..but that makes sense. its spell slots scale as though its a full caster. as far as damage...well...i'll get to that.



So as I've been looking for something to bring it back into the fold of "Balanced Subclasses" without taking away it's flavor, I've found the only method I can think of is to remove Hexblade's Curse entirely and reduce the weapon proficiency to Simple Weapons (as Pact of the Blade already covers Martial Weapon Proficiency). What are your thoughts on this change?

the biggest issue with hexblade is hex warrior, not hexblades curse.

hexblades curse is a 1/sr single target 'nuke'. except its not really a nuke, more like a single target debuff...and that debuff does damage. anyway, point being that the only way hexblades cure is unbalanced is if you're commonly sending single bad guy encounters at the party. but if thats the case, then it doesn't matter how unbalanced hexblades curse is...because the party is gonna wipe the floor anyway (assuming the single monster follows 5e design philosophy).

Hex warrior, OTOH, means that a hexblade is unique among gishes (or was, until the artificer) in that its super SAD. it can more easily focus everything into cha, and once its got a high enough charisma, can start speccing into other combat feats. and thats a big, big problem when comparing hexblades to other gishes.

that being said, as people have mentioned, the hexblade, as a full lvl 20 character is actually rather weak. and thats primarily due to the fact that the subclass revolves around the hexblades curse...which is single target until lvl 14, and 5e isn't designed around having single monster encounters (yay bounded accuracy).

[KOLE]

My solution is simple:

-change the fluff (obviously not required to make it a generic shadowfell patron. Works nicely with the curse and spectre flavor.
-Remove Hex Warrior.
-Add Cha to attack/damage as a part of pact of the blade in addition to everything else they get.
-include the UA invocation to bond to a suit of armor and gain prof once per day. I cannot recall which level prereq this is, but its only available to bladelocks.

I like this fix because:
-It no longer makes it an end all be one level dip. You no longer gain the est damage cantip, medium armor prof, and spell/melee SADness in one convenient package.
-However, with proper investment and building, bladelock gishes are still viable, just not as overwhelming and not nearly as quickly.
-It opens up the option of gishing to the other patrons
-People who really like the hexblade packag can still get it, they just have to invest a little more.
-I like the fluff a lot more lol

Additionally, I also have a home rule that makes Eldritch Blast a class feature instead of a cantrip. It doesn’t change, except you only get an extra beam strictly with Warlock levels. This really helps dissuade the warlock dip cheese that plagues the 5e meta.

[Tanarii]

The debate (and some solutions) from last time:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610925-Fixing-the-Hexblade

[LudicSavant]

So I've been giving a lot of thought over the past few weeks to the game-breaking capacity of the Hexblade. I think the class has some good potential, but I've come to really dislike it as it instantly overshadows every other Gish build in both damage output and spellcasting capacity. So as I've been looking for something to bring it back into the fold of "Balanced Subclasses" without taking away it's flavor, I've found the only method I can think of is to remove Hexblade's Curse entirely and reduce the weapon proficiency to Simple Weapons (as Pact of the Blade already covers Martial Weapon Proficiency). What are your thoughts on this change?

So there are a few aspects of the Hexblade that only really help its power as a multiclass and don’t help its single class. These are:

- Shield on its spell list. This spell is amazing for anyone who is NOT a full Warlock, because as good as it is, it’s not 5th level slot good. But when you're dipping for a single recharging level 1 slot, or have slots from another class to use it with? Very important spell.

- Proficiency scaling on Hexblade’s Curse instead of class level scaling like every other damaging class feature in the game. Like, there’s a reason no other class does this and they, what, forgot?

So if you want to make conservative changes to the Hexblade, changing these are ways to affect its multiclassing power while leaving its single class the same. Just switch out Shield on its spell list, and make it so that Hexblade's Curse scales on Class Level rather than Proficiency, and that's a fairly significant nerf to their multiclassing while single class Warlocks won't care.

If you want to go further, I'd suggest taking a look at the fact that it gets Cha-SADness and a shield proficiency at level 1. It's actually a little odd that Pact of the Blade doesn't provide Cha SADness since Pact of the Tome does provide Shillelagh+Booming Blade.

As for the changes suggested, I see little point to taking away their martial proficiency. All that reducing weapon proficiency really does is make it so you have to wait a couple levels to some fluff concepts without actually impacting the power much at all (the non-Blade Hexblades are using Eldritch Blasts, not weapons. And the multiclasses that care much about martial weapons are ones that already have it).

[Unoriginal]

Have you seen those warriors from the Shadowfell? They have curbed blades.

[Warlush]

My solution is simple:

-change the fluff (obviously not required to make it a generic shadowfell patron. Works nicely with the curse and spectre flavor.
-Remove Hex Warrior.
-Add Cha to attack/damage as a part of pact of the blade in addition to everything else they get.
-include the UA invocation to bond to a suit of armor and gain prof once per day. I cannot recall which level prereq this is, but its only available to bladelocks.

I like this fix because:
-It no longer makes it an end all be one level dip. You no longer gain the est damage cantip, medium armor prof, and spell/melee SADness in one convenient package.
-However, with proper investment and building, bladelock gishes are still viable, just not as overwhelming and not nearly as quickly.
-It opens up the option of gishing to the other patrons
-People who really like the hexblade packag can still get it, they just have to invest a little more.
-I like the fluff a lot more lol

Additionally, I also have a home rule that makes Eldritch Blast a class feature instead of a cantrip. It doesn’t change, except you only get an extra beam strictly with Warlock levels. This really helps dissuade the warlock dip cheese that plagues the 5e meta.

Exactly. Requiring a 3 level dip, a pact boon, and an invocation makes those obnoxious Hexblade1/decent class 19 builds disappear. I would also change Hexblade's curse to only add damage when you hit the enemy with an attack. Cause that magic missile cheese is soooooo boring.

[Sception]

The sadness of hexblade for melee gishes is overstated. They still need a good to great constitution for concentration saves and hit points, and they still need a 14 dex for medium armor or a 15 strength for heavy armor depending on build & multiclassing.

It's better than most other gishes, but is still noticeably more mad than pure martials (who only need con and either str or dex), and is more or less on par with pure spellcasters, and even they suffer less from lower ac stat due to magical defenses and avoiding melee.

Hex warrior is still a problem, though, as it's too front loaded, and should be available to all bladelocks, and shouldn't be available to non-blade bkaster locks. The real deep down solution is to remove hex warrior and blade pact entirely, rename the hexblade patron, rewrite all of warlock to be more of a dedicated caster, and write an entire new 'hexblade' class as a gishy half-pact-caster in it's own right, related to the warlock as paladin is related to cleric. That's the only way for bladelocks to be functional and viable with the hp, proficiencies, and abilities they need from level one without giving bladelocks too much at level 1 and without giving those same things to blastylocks who don't need and shouldn't have them. While you're at it, you should make eldritch blast a class feature that scales with warlock level, not a cantrip that scales with character level.

But if you don't want to rewrite an entire class and write a whole new one, then the obvious solution is to remove hex warrior from hexblade and just add its effects and proficiencies to blade pact. It's not a perfect solution since single classed bladelocks won't have the tools they need until level 3, but at least the class won't be too front loaded, And non-hex-bladelocks will get the stuff they need to function, and blastylocks who want the armor and shield proficiencies will have to give up something to get them.

And unlike a one level dip, a three level dip for cha melee won't break anything. After all, three level warlock dip for cha melee has been part of 3e since day one due to tomelock shillelagh.

[LudicSavant]

Hexblade's Curse is such a big deal in large part because it scales with proficiency, unlike... well, every other damage bonus. Imagine if a Rogue's Sneak Attack scaled with profiency. Or a Barbarian's rage damage bonuses (including the Zealot or Storm Herald bonuses or Ancestral Guardian reactions or the like). Or the size of the Battle Master's maneuver dice. And so on and so forth. All of it scales by class level.

There's a reason this doesn't happen for any other class. So why does it happen for Hexblade's Curse? It serves only to make it a much stronger dip.

Shield is another case that synergizes much more with dipping than it does with the actual straight class. It's a spell that is far better when you have 1 or 2 regenerating level 1 slots (and/or level 1 slots from other spellcasting classes) than if you're actually a full Warlock who auto-upcasts. Removing this spell from their list would hardly impact a single-class Hexblade, but have a considerable effect on some of their multiclasses.

Beyond that it's just a matter of taking a look at their armor/shield proficiences and/or Cha-SADness.

[LudicSavant]

So a relatively conservative change might look like:

Ludic's Hypothetical Hexblade Tweak

Changed text in Bold.


Expanded Spell List
The Hexblade lets you choose from an expanded list of spells when you learn a warlock spell. The following spells are added to the warlock spell list for you.
Hexblade Expanded SpellsSpell Level Spells
1st bane, wrathful smite
2nd blur, branding smite
3rd blink, elemental weapon
4th phantasmal killer, staggering smite
5th banishing smite, cone of cold

(Note: The new spell replacing shield can be almost anything you find thematic, as long as it's not something that's similarly dip-friendly to Shield, like Absorb Elements).


Hexblade's Curse
Starting at 1st level, you gain the ability to place a baleful curse on someone. As a bonus action, choose one creature you can see within 30 feet of you. The target is cursed for 1 minute. The curse ends early if the target dies, you die, or you are incapacitated. Until the curse ends, you gain the following benefits:

You gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls against the cursed target. The damage increases when you reach certain levels in this class, increasing to +3 at 5th level, +4 at 9th level, +5 at 13th level, and +6 at 17th level.
Any weapon attack roll you make against the cursed target is a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20 on the d20.
If the cursed target dies, you regain hit points equal to your warlock level + your Charisma modifier (minimum of 1 hit point).

You can't use this feature again until you finish a short or long rest.


Hex Warrior
At 1st level, you acquire the training necessary to effectively arm yourself for battle. You gain proficiency with medium armor, shields, and martial weapons.

At 3rd level, the influence of your patron also allows you to mystically channel your will through a particular weapon. Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch one weapon that you are proficient with and that lacks the two-handed property. When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls. This benefit lasts until you finish a long rest. If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon's type.



What this does in practice:
All of these changes minimize the impact on the single-class Warlock while targeting their raw dipping power. Now, someone who dips Hexblade will get no Cha-SADness, +2 to damage rolls instead of scaling up to +6, and no crucial Shield spell added to their Paladin or Swords Bard or whatever. It's still a good dip, mind, but so is Cleric 1. Magic Missile Hexvoker still works, but at reduced strength.

Meanwhile, the single-class Warlock enjoys the same damage they always did, except for a modest nerf to the critrate of its Eldritch Blast builds (it's still an unusually good EBer without it), and effectively -1 to hit and damage for their first 2 levels (since a typical Hexblade will have 14 Dex / 16 Cha to start). And they barely feel the loss of Shield beyond level 3. Most of the change to the single class hexblade affects their first two levels, and frankly they still have a quite solid first two levels (due to being an armored martial with regenerating slots, HBC, and Invocations at 2). They'll live.

The idea of a boon changing things at 3rd level might seem a little weird, but it wouldn't be the first time a subclass got off-level abilities (for example, Shadow Sorcerer does it, getting Darkness at third level off of their level 1 feature).

If you'd like to go further, you could move the shield proficiency (not the armor, just the shield is enough) to level 3, or to Blade Pact. There's also the possibility of moving the Cha-SADness feature to Pact of the Blade (it's kind of weird that it doesn't have it already, since Tomelocks can do Shillelagh+Booming Blade, which leads non-Hexblade melee Warlocks to use Tome instead of Blade). Non-Bladelocks would still be able to happily Eldritch Blast away for more damage than other Warlocks, if you took that route.

[Skylivedk]

The designers have explicitly stated they don't want Hexblade tied to Pact of the Blade.

You need to consider what you're trying to rob from the class. You can't make Hexblade worse without considering the class. 20 levels of Hexblade is a trash class.

Why on Earth do you say that? Granted, I much prefer 17 hex / 3 battle master or Sorcerer, but it's far from trash. Still way above average. My own experience (in a no house rules game) was that the class was strong all the way through, and especially tier 3+, easily regularly outshining the battle master. Stats were easy too (ie starting with 16 con, 14 Dex and 17 cha).

I like LudicSavant's changes for preventing the dip factor. I'd also change the level 6 ability, but then again: I'm quite liberal in my house rules

[TrueAlphaGamer]

I think the class has some good potential, but I've come to really dislike it as it instantly overshadows every other Gish build in both damage output and spellcasting capacity.

This point stuck with me. Does it really? Is it better than all other gish builds in all other classes? More importantly, is going gish the optimal strategy for warlock, or even hexblade itself?

Let's compare it to other gishes/gish-types, like bladesinger wizard, arcana cleric, and battlesmith artificer. At level 6, since that's pretty easy.

I'll optimize the hexblade for a nice melee level 6 power spike, with 18 charisma variant human fighter 1/hexblade 5, polearm master for spear, dueling fighting style. We go into battle with heavy/medium armor and a shield, for a respectable 20/19 AC, assuming our character has the cash. At that level, assuming two short rests per adventuring day, our hexblade gets 6 level 3 spells (from the warlock/hexblade spell list :smallannoyed:) and can do ~2.5 attacks per turn, with a damage per hit ranging from minimum 8 to maximum 13, without expending resources. It's not bad, though our build isn't very synergistic, since the PAM attack conflicts with our hex/curse for our bonus action, which can lead to frustrating tactical decisions.

For bladesinger, I'll go singleclass. At level 6, lets assume we can bladesong for each combat, and we have mage armor. This, assuming around 16 dex and 18 int, and we go into battle with a nice 20 AC (13 + 3 dex mod for mage armor, +4 from int mod for bladesong), and with a free hand, too! We also have 2 attacks per round, lets say with a rapier, doing 1d8+3 twice a round, or, perhaps we attempt a booming/green-flame blade, with either 2d8+3 for an initial hit and either a 2d8 or 1d8+4 rider. Obviously, we have lower damage output than our hexblade, and generally spend some resources to do it, but something else to consider is that we have wizard spellcasting, which gives us way more versatility than the warlock, between a greater spell list, more spells, and the ability to cast rituals.

Our arcana cleric is similar. Of course, we can always try for magic initiate shillelagh as a variant human, which gives us a 1d8 SAD magic staff, and with either booming/green-flame blade, we can hit with 2d8+4 and a 2d8 or 1d8+4 rider at 6th level. We also get medium armor and shields, with an AC of 19 using half plate, also respectable. We're also a full caster, meaning we get some really nice spells like bless, healing word, spirit guardians, spiritual weapon, etc., so we have the hexblade 'beat' on that front, similar to the wizard.

With battlesmith, we can easily match the SADness and damage if we go the same racial/multiclass build as we did our hexblade, though we also get the bonuses of a steel defender and infusions, as well as some spellcasting to play around with. I would consider the hexblade to be in general parity with the gish battlesmith.

In general, we find good at-will/encounter damage via the hexblade, but as a whole, the fact that it falls behind spellcasters in terms of spell availability means it is hard to say for sure if the hexblade beats every gish. It is important to consider a class/build holistically before making these kinds of assumptions.

Though, of course, let's also consider the hexblade gish in comparison to other warlocks. One of the main issues with gishing as warlock is the large invocation tax. You need improved pact weapon (at least early) plus maybe fiendish vigor (also early on, to bolster your hp pool), then thirsting blade (to actually get your second attack), then lifedrinker (to keep up with damage). A base warlock just needs agonizing blast to be competitive, especially at higher levels. This fact also gives blaster warlocks great multiclass ability (since cantrips always scale with character level) and the ability to stay at range, minimizing harm to them (and can also go chain or tome for increased utility, compared to our gish being forced to go blade pact).

At level 11, there are three attacks at 1d10+5 from our blaster warlock, at range, with the option for 1d6 extra to each using hex. Our hexblade needs to wait a level (maybe two) to match/exceed that, while also getting into melee, and being taxed a minimum of two invocations to do so. It is strong, but not a clearly superior build.

[Skylivedk]

This point stuck with me. Does it really? Is it better than all other gish builds in all other classes? More importantly, is going gish the optimal strategy for warlock, or even hexblade itself?

Let's compare it to other gishes/gish-types, like bladesinger wizard, arcana cleric, and battlesmith artificer. At level 6, since that's pretty easy.

I'll optimize the hexblade for a nice melee level 6 power spike, with 18 charisma variant human fighter 1/hexblade 5, polearm master for spear, dueling fighting style. We go into battle with heavy/medium armor and a shield, for a respectable 20/19 AC, assuming our character has the cash. At that level, assuming two short rests per adventuring day, our hexblade gets 6 level 3 spells (from the warlock/hexblade spell list :smallannoyed:) and can do ~2.5 attacks per turn, with a damage per hit ranging from minimum 8 to maximum 13, without expending resources. It's not bad, though our build isn't very synergistic, since the PAM attack conflicts with our hex/curse for our bonus action, which can lead to frustrating tactical decisions.

For bladesinger, I'll go singleclass. At level 6, lets assume we can bladesong for each combat, and we have mage armor. This, assuming around 16 dex and 18 int, and we go into battle with a nice 20 AC (13 + 3 dex mod for mage armor, +4 from int mod for bladesong), and with a free hand, too! We also have 2 attacks per round, lets say with a rapier, doing 1d8+3 twice a round, or, perhaps we attempt a booming/green-flame blade, with either 2d8+3 for an initial hit and either a 2d8 or 1d8+4 rider. Obviously, we have lower damage output than our hexblade, and generally spend some resources to do it, but something else to consider is that we have wizard spellcasting, which gives us way more versatility than the warlock, between a greater spell list, more spells, and the ability to cast rituals.

Our arcana cleric is similar. Of course, we can always try for magic initiate shillelagh as a variant human, which gives us a 1d8 SAD magic staff, and with either booming/green-flame blade, we can hit with 2d8+4 and a 2d8 or 1d8+4 rider at 6th level. We also get medium armor and shields, with an AC of 19 using half plate, also respectable. We're also a full caster, meaning we get some really nice spells like bless, healing word, spirit guardians, spiritual weapon, etc., so we have the hexblade 'beat' on that front, similar to the wizard.

With battlesmith, we can easily match the SADness and damage if we go the same racial/multiclass build as we did our hexblade, though we also get the bonuses of a steel defender and infusions, as well as some spellcasting to play around with. I would consider the hexblade to be in general parity with the gish battlesmith.

In general, we find good at-will/encounter damage via the hexblade, but as a whole, the fact that it falls behind spellcasters in terms of spell availability means it is hard to say for sure if the hexblade beats every gish. It is important to consider a class/build holistically before making these kinds of assumptions.

Though, of course, let's also consider the hexblade gish in comparison to other warlocks. One of the main issues with gishing as warlock is the large invocation tax. You need improved pact weapon (at least early) plus maybe fiendish vigor (also early on, to bolster your hp pool), then thirsting blade (to actually get your second attack), then lifedrinker (to keep up with damage). A base warlock just needs agonizing blast to be competitive, especially at higher levels. This fact also gives blaster warlocks great multiclass ability (since cantrips always scale with character level) and the ability to stay at range, minimizing harm to them (and can also go chain or tome for increased utility, compared to our gish being forced to go blade pact).

At level 11, there are three attacks at 1d10+5 from our blaster warlock, at range, with the option for 1d6 extra to each using hex. Our hexblade needs to wait a level (maybe two) to match/exceed that, while also getting into melee, and being taxed a minimum of two invocations to do so. It is strong, but not a clearly superior build.

Why would you go fighter 1 and variant human over half-elf drow as a Hexblade? I would also pick both GWM, Elven Accuracy and +2 cha over PAM. PAM is overrated IMO because of the alternative cost in the action economy. You have too much competition for both bonus actions and reactions for it to be the feat it's often made out to be. I simply don't get the fighter 1 dip. Way too expensive in progression. In this case you are losing a minion that is an excellent scout and adds action economy to boot without concentration slot dependency. For what? 2 ac? Worse stats because to get the AC you need 15 strength, which is more expensive than 14 Dex and less useful. Strength doesn't synergise with Thirsting blade either since you can't shove twice. Also, you kind of want to be hit in a lot of cases (melee only though). The comparison is not good IMO

[Habber_Dasher]

So I haven't played a hexblade or blade pact warlock, so a question for those who have: how much do you actually cast spells that rely on CHA? I would think that with a warlock's limited spell slot you'd mostly be casting things like hex , darkness, armor of agathys, shadow of moil, etc., But again I don't have first hand experience.

It just seems to me that using CHA for weapon attacks is another one of those abilities that is a bigger deal for multiclassing than it is for the Hexblade itself.

[Corran]

Why would you go fighter 1 and variant human over half-elf drow as a Hexblade? I would also pick both GWM, Elven Accuracy and +2 cha over PAM. PAM is overrated IMO because of the alternative cost in the action economy. You have too much competition for both bonus actions and reactions for it to be the feat it's often made out to be.
PAM has better synergy with stuff that dont put any or too much pressure on your spell slots (eg lifedrinker, or spells like hex -somtimes- and elemental weapon, because of their long duration), leaving them open to be used with other things (eg armor of agathys, counterspell, dispel magic, etc). It also allows for a shield, which helps a bit with AC (but not too much, as even then hexblades are still fairly squihy), and it's just 1 feat that also does not lock your race into something other than vhuman, allowing you thus room for up to two more feats/ASI's (resilient, warcaster, inspiring leader, charisma bumps, etc). I'd still delay PAM on a melee hexblade build until level 12 (cause I would want to rely on hex a lot before I got my 3rd slot, and hex does not always play well with PAM). But all that said, I wouldn't go with any of these weapon feats on a hexblade or a melee centric approach, unless it was a stylistic/theme choice, or unless I was playing in a melee heavy party (ideally with a paladin and/or a bard for support).

=========================

@OP: Do check the link that Tanarii provided upthread. I think there were lots of good ideas in it. What I had taken out from that thread, was that the problem with hexblade (btw I dont agree with your anaysis in the op at all), and the problem with the pact of the blade, are two things that should be fixed with respect to each other. Move hex warrior and weapon/armor proficiencies to pact of the balde, so that it becomes as powerful as the other two pacts. Those two things are also two important reasons why some classes dip in hexblade too (also, this way, non-heablade bladelocks dont have to dip for armor proficiency now, which is another problem). Secondly, remove the shield spell. Whoever put it there, either didnt know anything about multiclassing, or the purpose was to make the warlock an even better dip than it already was (which IMO is a terrible idea).

[Yakk]

1. Warlocks get a Greater Hex ability. 1/rest they can cast Hex as a 1st level spell without concentration, and add +prof to its damage. It does not, however, move targets. Hexblade's Curse no longer adds +prof to damage rolls.

Hexblade's combat abilities blows every other patron out of the water. This levels it.

2. Hex Warrior becomes "add 1/2 of your charisma bonus (round up) to damage rolls with your chosen weapon".

No more SAD Cha.

3. Pact of the Blade lets you make ranged spell attacks as melee spell attacks while holding your pact weapon. If you do so, you add 1/2 of your Strength bonus (round up) to the damage the spell does (if finesse, 1/2 of your dex (round up) instead)

This includes EB. Which means a Pact of the Blade can make EB spell melee attacks with their blade "out of the box".

4. Master of Hexes also lets you move your Greater Hex.

---

I also changed shield proficiency to be a ward (+1+prof/2 round up AC, acts like a shield, bonus action to summon free to dismiss), because I'm a fan of 4e swordmages, but that is just mostly fluff.

[Skylivedk]

PAM has better synergy with stuff that dont put any or too much pressure on your spell slots (eg lifedrinker, or spells like hex -somtimes- and elemental weapon, because of their long duration), leaving them open to be used with other things (eg armor of agathys, counterspell, dispel magic, etc). It also allows for a shield, which helps a bit with AC (but not too much, as even then hexblades are still fairly squihy), and it's just 1 feat that also does not lock your race into something other than vhuman, allowing you thus room for up to two more feats/ASI's (resilient, warcaster, inspiring leader, charisma bumps, etc). I'd still delay PAM on a melee hexblade build until level 12 (cause I would want to rely on hex a lot before I got my 3rd slot, and hex does not always play well with PAM). But all that said, I wouldn't go with any of these weapon feats on a hexblade or a melee centric approach, unless it was a stylistic/theme choice, or unless I was playing in a melee heavy party (ideally with a paladin and/or a bard for support).

=========================

@OP: Do check the link that Tanarii provided upthread. I think there were lots of good ideas in it. What I had taken out from that thread, was that the problem with hexblade (btw I dont agree with your anaysis in the op at all), and the problem with the pact of the blade, are two things that should be fixed with respect to each other. Move hex warrior and weapon/armor proficiencies to pact of the balde, so that it becomes as powerful as the other two pacts. Those two things are also two important reasons why some classes dip in hexblade too (also, this way, non-heablade bladelocks dont have to dip for armor proficiency now, which is another problem). Secondly, remove the shield spell. Whoever put it there, either didnt know anything about multiclassing, or the purpose was to make the warlock an even better dip than it already was (which IMO is a terrible idea).

Greater synergy than? GWM? Hardly, Hexblade is great at generating advantage. Than Elven Accuracy? Again, hardly, it's one of two classes that can become very consistent crit fishers. At level 12, the Hexblade is 2 levels from also being able to move the curse, providing even more competition for Bonus Actions. I tested it myself. Over 3 sessions with around 20 encounters, I had less than 6 extra attacks from PAM at level 14. Not worth it. You can of course have other data points, but I asked my DM to respec to Res: Con.

If you make optimisation comparisons, your point of comparison ought to be optimised. PAM is way better on paper than it actually is in play due to the setup time and how quickly you end combats; something the Hexblade contributes to a lot in tier 3 with 24+% crit chance and Eldritch Smite.

You are also not squishy with a Hexblade if played well in a group that cooperates. Most of the time in tiers 1-3 enemies can't target to with a range of spells, they disadvantage to hit you and you have hp from Armour of Agathys that eclipses that of a Barbarian. You're actually tanky as hell.

[Hael]

Why would you go fighter 1 and variant human over half-elf drow as a Hexblade? I would also pick both GWM, Elven Accuracy and +2 cha over PAM. PAM is overrated IMO because of the alternative cost in the action economy. You have too much competition for both bonus actions and reactions for it to be the feat it's often made out to be.

Yep, standard minmax doctrine is that you go PAM first with the Variant human build, and EA/GWM with the Half-elf build (then PAM in tier 3). They're both very strong builds, the first is better in tier1/2, the second is better in tier 3/4.

You can take the early fighter dip if you're going echo Knight, but the build loses a lot of power in tier1-2 (where the standard Hexblade is normally very strong). It's definitely not worth it for battlemaster, and if you want fighter 2, you can take it at like lvl 18. You can make a Hexblade/Eldritch Knight build thats pretty strong, but that really requires a big dip in warrior.

As usual, you can't talk about single class Hexblade vs other Gish without discussing Darkness/DS and Shadow of Moil. The big reason the damage and survivability numbers go through the roof is because of those spells and the interaction with GWM and EA.

[micahaphone]

So I haven't played a hexblade or blade pact warlock, so a question for those who have: how much do you actually cast spells that rely on CHA? I would think that with a warlock's limited spell slot you'd mostly be casting things like hex , darkness, armor of agathys, shadow of moil, etc., But again I don't have first hand experience.

It just seems to me that using CHA for weapon attacks is another one of those abilities that is a bigger deal for multiclassing than it is for the Hexblade itself.

True, but having spells/ EB for ranged or utility options is also nice to have as a backup. Being a feylock who can't charm or a fiend who only does 1/2 damage on fireballs feels crappy.




------------------
Also Ludic, I completely think that Bane is a decent and good pick for the expanded list, but I also find it funny that you and the recent UA undead warlock basically agree "hmmm this really shouldn't be gated behind a 1/LR invocation"

[AvvyR]

If you don't like the splashes with paladin or bard or whatever, just ban them. Hexblade on its own is fine. I've played a lot of gishes, like a LOT of them, and I found straight Hexblade to be underwhelming compared to Bladesinger or Sorcadin or even Rogue AT/War Wizard multi. I even did Hexblade using the "insanely broken" double scimitar people on this forum are always complaining about and still found it lacking. Not that it's bad, just not as exciting as other options.

[Corran]

Greater synergy than? GWM? Hardly, Hexblade is great at generating advantage. Than Elven Accuracy? Again, hardly, it's one of two classes that can become very consistent crit fishers. At level 12, the Hexblade is 2 levels from also being able to move the curse, providing even more competition for Bonus Actions. I tested it myself.

If you make optimisation comparisons, your point of comparison ought to be optimised. PAM is way better on paper than it actually is in play due to the setup time and how quickly you end combats; something the Hexblade contributes to a lot in tier 3 with 24+% crit chance and Eldritch Smite.

You are also not squishy with a Hexblade if played well in a group that cooperates. Most of the time in tiers 1-3 enemies can't target to with a range of spells, they disadvantage to hit you and you have hp from Armour of Agathys that eclipses that of a Barbarian. You're actually tanky as hell.
Good point about the curse boost at 14, had not considered that. You mention set up time, but that's not always a given thing. And even if it is, what happens when you've got multiple encounters ahead? I can see an ideal scenario where a single cast of the darkness spell carries you through 2 or 3 encounters, but how often is that going to be the case, even before we account for concentration (which you haven't boosted cause your feats are all going into dpr)? I can see the GWM (+EA) hexblade doing well in small bursts if you have the time (and knowledge of encounters lying ahead) to pre-buff (effectively), and assuming a melee heavy party (so that you can exploit being unseen for some hit and run tactics, so that your concentration is not in risk too much). And that's again assuming that the party can keep going at such a fast pace.

You are also mentioning crit-fishing. I wont go into the value of it, but how often can you crit-fish if you are already committed to one slot for generating advantage and possibly to another slot for tanking (AoA)? And this does not take into account slots spent for smiting when necessity and not a random crit roll demanded, or slots spent for other things (which I am guessing the GWM build doesn't often do, because of all this pressure on its slots). I dont think the PAM build is significantly better, but I like that it boosts dpr (especially once lifedrinker kicks in) without necessarily needing the slot support (though it can get some) and without overcommitting to feats. Maybe the GWM build becomes better after level 14 or 17 (after the curse, or more likely after both the curse and your 4th slot), haven't thought about it to be honest, cause I am not thrilled by either prospect.


Over 3 sessions with around 20 encounters, I had less than 6 extra attacks from PAM at level 14. Not worth it. You can of course have other data points, but I asked my DM to respec to Res: Con.
Can you run me through your resource spending and action economy? Dont need exact figures, just a rough layout from what you can remember.

[Gtdead]

Personally I'd just move the abilities from lvl 1 to lvl 2 and leave it at that. This will make a huge difference in both lvl 10 and lvl 20 campaigns for gishes. Lvl 10 because they forfeit level 5 spells, and lvl 20 because they can't dip action surge without forfeiting lvl 9 spells.

Also now Hexblade will compete with Fighter and Paladin dips instead of being mainly synergistic. 3 lvls is the cutoff point for most gish dipping.
It will also make power progression a bit more honest. Right now, Caster x is strictly (for me at least) better than HB 1/Caster x at every odd level. With this change it will be strictly better at every level up to lvl 19.

A single classed Hexblade is fine in my book.

[AdAstra]

I would actually move Hexblade's curse to level 6, and get rid of the spectre ability. That thing was always so out of place, and getting rid of it detracts very little. That reduces the benefits of dipping by a good bit.

I might also make the curse only apply to weapon attacks. A big problem with a lot of Gish subclasses is that they do very little to incentivise actually using your weapon. Bladesinger also has this issue.

[Yakk]

I would actually move Hexblade's curse to level 6, and get rid of the spectre ability. That thing was always so out of place, and getting rid of it detracts very little. That reduces the benefits of dipping by a good bit.
It is the only not "do m0ar damage" (or armor) feature of the subclass.

[Lysimarchos]

So I've been giving a lot of thought over the past few weeks to the game-breaking capacity of the Hexblade. I think the class has some good potential, but I've come to really dislike it as it instantly overshadows every other Gish build in both damage output and spellcasting capacity. So as I've been looking for something to bring it back into the fold of "Balanced Subclasses" without taking away it's flavor, I've found the only method I can think of is to remove Hexblade's Curse entirely and reduce the weapon proficiency to Simple Weapons (as Pact of the Blade already covers Martial Weapon Proficiency). What are your thoughts on this change?

I would just redo it from the ground up. Get rid of the weird "you made a pact with an ancient intelligent weapon who is also a being from the Shadowfell and also somehow tied to the Raven Queen but is not the Raven Queen patron" and just make it a general Underworld/Shadowfell patron. Then give the Hex Warrior features to the Pact of the Blade so you need to take 3 levels of Warlock before getting those Gish features, and give the Hexblade some other level 1 ability, and redo their Pact Spells so they aren't so martial-focused.

[Nagog]

The designers have explicitly stated they don't want Hexblade tied to Pact of the Blade.


It wouldn't be tied to Blade Pact at all. You already have proficiency in simple weapons, and there are plenty of other ways to get weapon proficiencies (feats, races, multiclassing, etc). Separating the two just means that you won't be able to dip 1 level into Hexblade and instantly turn your Sorcerer into a Gish.


in...spell casting capacity...when compared to full casters? no. unless you're doing ALOT of encounters per day (which, hey more power to you thats one way to balance full casters) the warlock shouldn't outshice full casters. it might outshine half casters in casting ability..but that makes sense. its spell slots scale as though its a full caster. as far as damage...well...i'll get to that.


Not compared to other casters, compared to other Gish builds. Warlock is already a full caster (they get up to 9th level spells) and adding in more martial capacity than any other gish-focused subclass to it (more than Artificers, Bards, and Wizard's Gish subclasses) just goes to push it far further than any Gish needs to go.


This point stuck with me. Does it really? Is it better than all other gish builds in all other classes? More importantly, is going gish the optimal strategy for warlock, or even hexblade itself?


It's one of only two gish subclasses that allows for SADness, the other being Battle Smith, but Warlock also gets full spell progression, can Smite with it's spell slots, can double it's attack stat on damage (Lifedrinker), and tons of other stuff that's both martial and caster focused. Battle Smith gets heavy armor and martial weapons, and becomes SAD specifically when using a magic weapon. The one and only boon Battle Smith has over Hexblade is that Battle Smith can dual-wield, whereas Hexblade is limited to one weapon.


So I haven't played a hexblade or blade pact warlock, so a question for those who have: how much do you actually cast spells that rely on CHA? I would think that with a warlock's limited spell slot you'd mostly be casting things like hex , darkness, armor of agathys, shadow of moil, etc., But again I don't have first hand experience.

It just seems to me that using CHA for weapon attacks is another one of those abilities that is a bigger deal for multiclassing than it is for the Hexblade itself.

Yes and no. Hexblade has a lot of class spells that don't rely too much on Cha (mostly because a good number of them are Paladin spells), but the Warlock spell list they also pull from was built in the same manner as all other full casters: Assuming your casting stat is your highest and will be maxed out ASAP. MADness and lack of spell progression is the detriment of all Gish builds, Hexblade completely bypasses both with a single level.

[TrueAlphaGamer]

It's one of only two gish subclasses that allows for SADness, the other being Battle Smith, but Warlock also gets full spell progression, can Smite with it's spell slots, can double it's attack stat on damage (Lifedrinker), and tons of other stuff that's both martial and caster focused. Battle Smith gets heavy armor and martial weapons, and becomes SAD specifically when using a magic weapon. The one and only boon Battle Smith has over Hexblade is that Battle Smith can dual-wield, whereas Hexblade is limited to one weapon.

. . .

Yes and no. Hexblade has a lot of class spells that don't rely too much on Cha (mostly because a good number of them are Paladin spells), but the Warlock spell list they also pull from was built in the same manner as all other full casters: Assuming your casting stat is your highest and will be maxed out ASAP. MADness and lack of spell progression is the detriment of all Gish builds, Hexblade completely bypasses both with a single level.

I'll concede that the SADness of the hexblade causes issues with dipping, but I find that you're putting too much emphasis on SADness within a single-class hexblade gish. Like I mentioned previously, the nature of hex/blade/pact introduces a good number of taxes/potential opportunity cost - but I'll consider your points one at a time.

Full spell progression: Yes, warlock get spells, and yes, they progress normally, but the warlock has issues with spells known, spell slots, and a rather meager spell list. This is exacerbated by the necessity of going into melee and having to look out for both your HP and your concentration. For the majority of tier 1 and 2, our hexblade will be spending his spell slots on hex, armor of agathys, shadow of moil, and maybe a shield or elemental weapon here and there. None of these spells utilize his superior, SAD Charisma score. The spells that would utilize it, like hold person, fear, synaptic static, etc., are not only competing for spell slots, but most also for concentration, causing huge opportunity costs for our hexblade.

Smiting: I'm of the belief that this is basically a trap option until maybe tier 4 (unless there's some crit-fishing cheese going on). The warlock simply does not get enough spell slots to warrant taking this invocation (oh yeah, and since it's an invocation, it's another avenue for opportunity cost).

Lifedrinker: Yes, you're right that this has immense synergy with the SAD of hexblade, but your character is waiting until warlock 12 to get this, and by that point any other warlock has three agonizing blast eldritch blasts, so this invocation tax mainly serves to bring the hexblade in parity with builds of the same class. Also take note that an Arcana cleric just needs 1 feat for Magic Initiate: Shillelagh to also be SAD with wisdom, and has been potent spellcasting with booming/green-flame blade since level 8, giving it a Wis mod double-dip due to their attack and rider (yes they don't have two attacks but can make up for it with an upcast spirit guardians or something else thats rly cool).

I'll reiterate that hex/blade/pact is a good gish, and concede that it does kind of blow Artificer out of the water, but it requires a lot of resources to do well in what it does, and doesn't get nearly as many tricks outside of combat than either other warlocks or other gish spellcasters: no chance of familiar, no ritual casting, not alot of spells/spell slots, no F-U type big damage spells, and not many great utility spells.

[Lupine]

Congratulations. You solution takes away what makes it cool. My solution —rather than lean into the martial— is to make it focused on the curses, thereby making it the shadow patron.

Remove the armor prof from hex warrior, move the rest of Hex Warrior to pact of the blade. Balance this by making accursed specter allow any number, up to int modifier, min one. (or wis, if you prefer).

Then, change the bonus spells to be heavily “curse” flavored: command/bane, blindness/hold person, bestow curse/slow, confusion/polymorph, geas/contagion.

The rest of the class gets a flavor make-over for it’s new Shadowfell patron idea. Now, the subclass may be used as melee if desired (wheras before, it was shuttled in), but can also go chain or tomelock. In addition, by removing shield from the bonus spell, the main reason to one level dip is gone.

[Meichrob7]

Don’t nerf it, just delay the abilities if you really feel you have to. Like a lot of people have said, straight hexblade till 20 isn’t the issue, the 1 level hexblade dips are. Pushing the features back or even just making them features that you don’t get by multiclassing would fix the issue.

If you really think hexblade solo is the be all end all gish then I’d like to introduce you to my friend the Sorcerer/Paladin.

[Edea]

...move Hexblade's Curse to 6th level and get rid of Accursed Specter.

Why is all of this stuff at 1st level? The Fiend Warlock's 1st level package is literally 1/3 of Hexblade's Curse and a different spell list expansion...and that's it.

[Willie the Duck]

If you don't like the splashes with paladin or bard or whatever, just ban them. Hexblade on its own is fine. I've played a lot of gishes, like a LOT of them, and I found straight Hexblade to be underwhelming compared to Bladesinger or Sorcadin or even Rogue AT/War Wizard multi. I even did Hexblade using the "insanely broken" double scimitar people on this forum are always complaining about and still found it lacking. Not that it's bad, just not as exciting as other options.

Honestly, the #1 thing (well, top 3 or so) I would have suggested they do differently with 5e would be to put the Multiclassing rules in the DMG, alongside the optional (and we mean it this time) style rules material like the gritty rest rules variants and morale checks and stuff.

That said, for Warlocks in the specific they could have made some changes based on how they MC with other classes. Make it take 3 levels to get the Cha for weapon attacks and make Eldritch Blast scale by warlock level, not total level.

[Nagog]

Congratulations. You solution takes away what makes it cool. My solution —rather than lean into the martial— is to make it focused on the curses, thereby making it the shadow patron.

Remove the armor prof from hex warrior, move the rest of Hex Warrior to pact of the blade. Balance this by making accursed specter allow any number, up to int modifier, min one. (or wis, if you prefer).


I've always thought the bit that makes it cool is the SADness and being a single classed martial caster.

Also, having Hex Warrior as part of Pact of the Blade heavily appeals to me, but I feel a great deal many DMs would rule that it makes Blade Pact far too powerful. If I could convince a DM to do that, I would love to play a Fiendlock or Feylock with SAD Martial capacity, though it can be quite powerful.


I'll concede that the SADness of the hexblade causes issues with dipping, but I find that you're putting too much emphasis on SADness within a single-class hexblade gish. Like I mentioned previously, the nature of hex/blade/pact introduces a good number of taxes/potential opportunity cost - but I'll consider your points one at a time.

Full spell progression: Yes, warlock get spells, and yes, they progress normally, but the warlock has issues with spells known, spell slots, and a rather meager spell list. This is exacerbated by the necessity of going into melee and having to look out for both your HP and your concentration. For the majority of tier 1 and 2, our hexblade will be spending his spell slots on hex, armor of agathys, shadow of moil, and maybe a shield or elemental weapon here and there. None of these spells utilize his superior, SAD Charisma score. The spells that would utilize it, like hold person, fear, synaptic static, etc., are not only competing for spell slots, but most also for concentration, causing huge opportunity costs for our hexblade.


The real kicker here though is high level spells. Even a Sorcadin has their high level spells delayed by dipping 2 levels into Paladin, and they also get the drawback of really gimped health from so many levels at a d6 hit dice.
Whether or not they cast the same way, Warlocks are full casters: their class was built to be able to rely on magic for 100% of play, until Hexblade came along and added the option to also get everything a Martial can do.



I'll reiterate that hex/blade/pact is a good gish, and concede that it does kind of blow Artificer out of the water, but it requires a lot of resources to do well in what it does, and doesn't get nearly as many tricks outside of combat than either other warlocks or other gish spellcasters: no chance of familiar, no ritual casting, not alot of spells/spell slots, no F-U type big damage spells, and not many great utility spells.

While it does take a lot of resources, they're resources that are native to the class. There's no need to dip into another class for any proficiencies, no need for a 5 level dip anywhere for extra attack, nothing of the sort. It's all built in.

[Avigor]

Maybe I'm weird but I like to embrace the Hexblade as D&D's Power Rangers/Magical Girls.
To any who read that and thought, "say what?" allow me to explain: All their abilities are powered by the purity of their convictions (Charisma in the Force of Personality role), they summon weapons out of nowhere (assuming Pact of the Blade but most do that anyways), they can summon armor out of nowhere and/or enter various "power-up" modes (or at least they can with a mild refluff of various EI's and spells), they can use their weapons to launch ludicrously explosive attacks (Improved Pact Weapon turning the Blade into an arcane focus meaning all spells are cast with sword swipes, bow shots, etc), and they even gain their powers from mysterious benefactors who can double as noncombative mentors and/or Worf effect tools (admittedly their activity level will vary from DM to DM)! (all they're missing to be PRs are Zords)

If you really want something different for a "6th Ranger" or whatever (especially for a late addition to the table), Paladin multiclass is an easy way to make them just a little bit different, and the right combo can give them an edge when they're introduced at party level 6+ so they might even feel OP, at least at first.

If you couldn't guess, I really want to do a campaign that plays this straight with a party full of Hexblades... on both sides of the screen TBH lol

Oh and I won't apologize to those who facepalmed above, we all have the right to be silly from time to time :smallbiggrin:

[DarknessEternal]

Whether or not they cast the same way, Warlocks are full casters: their class was built to be able to rely on magic for 100% of play,

No, they are not. No, they don't.

If you think Warlocks can rely on magic, you've never seen high level Warlocks in play.

[micahaphone]

No, they are not. No, they don't.

If you think Warlocks can rely on magic, you've never seen high level Warlocks in play.

???
I haven't seen high level warlocks in play. Are you saying that cantrips don't count as magic, or are you saying that pure warlock is a fundamentally flawed class that doesn't work past level 14?

[Ninjadeadbeard]

A friend of my DM came up with an elegant solution:

Make Hex Warrior part of the 3rd level Pact of the Blade feature. Armor proficiency is easy to come by, and Bladelocks have always needed the help. Plus, now it makes sense to be a Fiend-bladelock again.

[Edea]

A friend of my DM came up with an elegant solution:

Make Hex Warrior part of the 3rd level Pact of the Blade feature. Armor proficiency is easy to come by, and Bladelocks have always needed the help. Plus, now it makes sense to be a Fiend-bladelock again.

I mean...I agree with this, but there was some commentary earlier on in the thread about explicitly not tying the archetype to a pact boon.

[Lupine]

I mean...I agree with this, but there was some commentary earlier on in the thread about explicitly not tying the archetype to a pact boon.

You don’t need to. Doing this allows all patrons to be martial, if desired, yet also allows hexblade (or as I call it, Shadow) warlocks to be chain or tomelocks.

If you’re worried about it being too week, do the thing I mentioned earlier, where you can have specters equal to the int modifier. Suddenly, the hexblade turns into a curse slinging swarm character.

[Skylivedk]

No, they are not. No, they don't.

If you think Warlocks can rely on magic, you've never seen high level Warlocks in play.
Yes, yes I have. And yes they/he could. Well, and chop things to pieces on par with the Battle Master, because balance. Or something.

Granted: heavy indirect power boost from a gritty rest variant, but my Hexblade had a great time with spells and with blades. Had a little collection of dragon heads and was also great at intel and long distance warfare with other casters due to Aspect of the Moon, Scrying and Dream. Would I have liked having Wish? Definitely? Did I think my level 6 and 8 choices were meh, yes. We force cage still great and Foresight/True Polymorph hard to choose between? Definitely.