Melee Dex Fighter? Play style differences from a Strength Fighter

[blackjack50]

Just wondering what the differences would be in how you play these 2 characters? I have an image of someone wielding a rapier and fencing as the dex fighter. But how would they be in terms of AC and HP? What uses in combat? What directions could I go? A little bit of explanation as to how the dex vs strength would differ in combat.

[Strigon]

Here is a comprehensive list of differences between strength and dexterity fighting:

- Dexterity fighting lets you apply the stat to your AC
- Dexterity fighting allows you to wield all ranged weapons
- Dexterity weapons allow rogues to use sneak attack
- Strength weapons do a bit more damage
- Strength allows you to use special melee attacks like grapple/shove more effectively

That's it. HP doesn't enter into the discussion at all. The general consensus is that Dexterity is very strong, and well worth the ~2 damage per attack in most builds. Ultimately, though, there isn't a huge difference in playstyle. What affects your playstyle is more which class/subclass you are, which feats you take, and which skills you take proficiency in.

The basic rule is, if you go dexterity, grab light armour and a ranged weapon in addition to your rapier or whatever. If you go strength, get heavy armour and the biggest sword your fighting style allows for.

Really, though, the question isn't "strength or dexterity," it's "what do you want to do?" Then you pick your class and subclass, and match your stats to that. Strength and dexterity are almost interchangeable, except for specialized cases.

[Dork_Forge]

Dex would have no impact on your HP at all, and the difference in AC is -1 compared to a Plate wearing Str user if you go for Half Plate (and don't take Medium Armor Master).

Otherwise a Str Fighter will be able to effectively use Heavy weapons, so they can build around the Reach of a glaive or take GWM to hit hard, but besides big weapons, potentially a +1 to AC and being better at grappling... not really anything else going for Str in 5e.

Meanwhile a Dex Fighter, well it's best expressed as a list:

-Much better initiative, giving you a chance at formation and battlefield control/alpha striking
-Much better skills, there's one Str skill and three Dex based
-Better Dex saves, which will probably save you a considerable amount of hp, considering Str saves are primarily for things like being knocked prone, pushed etc. rather than straight damage (and you're proficient in Str saves anyway)
-De facto ability to multiclass into Rogue (and potentially Ranger) by meeting prereqs
-Access to Defensive Duelist for resourceless AC bumps against single hits
-Ability to switch to a (cross)bow for ranged attacks when needed

If you want a hard hitting build Str would be better, but Dex yields a more well rounded build that can still function very well in combat.

[blackjack50]

Here is a comprehensive list of differences between strength and dexterity fighting:

- Dexterity fighting lets you apply the stat to your AC
- Dexterity fighting allows you to wield all ranged weapons
- Dexterity weapons allow rogues to use sneak attack
- Strength weapons do a bit more damage
- Strength allows you to use special melee attacks like grapple/shove more effectively

That's it. HP doesn't enter into the discussion at all. The general consensus is that Dexterity is very strong, and well worth the ~2 damage per attack in most builds. Ultimately, though, there isn't a huge difference in playstyle. What affects your playstyle is more which class/subclass you are, which feats you take, and which skills you take proficiency in.

The basic rule is, if you go dexterity, grab light armour and a ranged weapon in addition to your rapier or whatever. If you go strength, get heavy armour and the biggest sword your fighting style allows for.

Really, though, the question isn't "strength or dexterity," it's "what do you want to do?" Then you pick your class and subclass, and match your stats to that. Strength and dexterity are almost interchangeable, except for specialized cases.

Well in this particular case it would be a melee-built fighter as the class. Which would be rapier. The idea of the build I’m looking for is like maybe a noble type character who grew up fencing and now is on an adventure. Or maybe something a bit like the old fashion pirate movies. Not really sure. More looking at the mechanics of the character in terms of being a dex fighter.

[Unoriginal]

Dex would have no impact on your HP at all, and the difference in AC is -1 compared to a Plate wearing Str user if you go for Half Plate (and don't take Medium Armor Master).

Otherwise a Str Fighter will be able to effectively use Heavy weapons, so they can build around the Reach of a glaive or take GWM to hit hard, but besides big weapons, potentially a +1 to AC and being better at grappling... not really anything else going for Str in 5e.

Athletics, which cover jumping, swimming and climbing (when/if a roll is required, of course), is a Strength skill. The Strength skill, even.

Some DMs let people use DEX for those things but eh, everything can be changed by any individual DM.

[Man_Over_Game]

Strength builds, because of the fact that they generally have less dependency on their primary stat for AC than Dexterity, and they have better access to two-handed weapons (which means they'll often have a free hand) generally makes them better for multiclassing out of other Martial classes.

Dexterity is powerful as a primary stat, but it generally requires more investment for the sake of AC, making it worse as a choice for secondary or tertiary stat classes.

On the other hand, Dexterity can function better at melee and ranged distances.

You could say that Dexterity Fighters work better for a strictly martial build, but Strength Fighters make much more efficient hybrids.

[Dork_Forge]

Athletics, which cover jumping, swimming and climbing (when/if a roll is required, of course), is a Strength skill. The Strength skill, even.

Some DMs let people use DEX for those things but eh, everything can be changed by any individual DM.

I do mention Str has one skill and probably should have called out Athletics more clearly, though grabbing proficiency in it is usually more than adequate (even on a dump Str build). Though you only need to make an Athletics check if you try and jump further than your jump distance (which is set by your Str score, though a 10 is usually adequate for most things). However if you land in difficult terrain that's an Acorbatics check and if you are the victim of a grapple you can choose Acrobatics or Athletics.

So it can be useful, but grabbing prof is usually sufficient unless you want to be a grappler.

[Satori01]

Are you thinking about using a shield?

In the category of thrown weapons a Dex Fighter is limited to daggers and darts.

A STR fighter has a much wider range of 1d6 DMG Thrown options.

Using a bow at range and a shield up close leads to that round where your action is donning the shield.

If you are not using a shield, then your off hand is a bit wasted.

Being a Dex fighter also means primarily using piercing damage...which will make a difference.

[LudicSavant]

Just wondering what the differences would be in how you play these 2 characters? I have an image of someone wielding a rapier and fencing as the dex fighter. But how would they be in terms of AC and HP? What uses in combat? What directions could I go? A little bit of explanation as to how the dex vs strength would differ in combat.

I think Dexterity is overall better for many Fighter builds, unless you want to be a shover/grappler. You'll do slightly less damage per round but have more turns in which to apply it, both because you're more likely to get Surprise (from Stealth) and because you're much more likely to win Initiative (from your +5 Dexterity). You also spend far less money on armor (thus getting over a thousand extra gold to spend on other nice things), and have better saving throws (Dex saves are a lot more valuable than Str).

The main advantage of Strength for an optimizer comes in the form of Shove/Grapple, or if you're really focusing your build around GWM (for example, if your build gets near-constant melee Advantage and a high crit rate). You also are less tied to Piercing weapons, which will matter... rarely (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612317-Resistances-Immunities-and-Vulnerabilities-of-Monsters-in-MM-Volo-s-and-MToF). But yeah, wielding a bludgeoning weapon is a little better than wielding a piercing one.

Don't stress out about any differences in AC between Dex and Str. It's more a sidegrade than an upgrade. Don't believe me?

At level 1, Dex will have 16 AC from 50gp Scale Mail and Str will have 16 AC from 75gp Chain Mail. The extra 25gp is enough to buy an extra school spell for the Wizard, or for an herbalist to brew a Healing Potion that saves someone's life at low levels. Advantage is clearly Dex out of the gate, though of course things change as we level.

As you level up and get more money, the advantage will shift back and forth. By the time you get to Full Plate, Studded Leather + 20 Dex will give 1 less AC, but also save almost a grand and a half in gold pieces, which is more than the value of multiple Uncommon magic items (which can, among other things, raise your AC) or, if you can't buy any, a mountain of healing potions or other useful things.

Now, at some eventual point in the future, the Full Plate will just be a +1 AC advantage and the gold won't manner, but you know what'll still matter? Having better saving throws, initiative, etc. Those things help prevent damage to you (and your party) too, just like +1 AC does.

So again, don't stress out about having heavy armor or not. That shouldn't be the thing that tips the decision for you, for Fighters or any other class (for example, new people often wrongly assume that a subclass getting Heavy Armor and Martial Weapons will be important factors if they want to frontline as a Cleric, when neither make much of a difference and you might even be able to make better tanks out of subclasses without those proficiencies, like Arcana).

[J-H]

Well in this particular case it would be a melee-built fighter as the class. Which would be rapier. The idea of the build I’m looking for is like maybe a noble type character who grew up fencing and now is on an adventure. Or maybe something a bit like the old fashion pirate movies. Not really sure. More looking at the mechanics of the character in terms of being a dex fighter.

Like...a swashbuckling character?
Have you looked at Rogue Swashbuckler?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

It got mentioned in passing by at least one of the other posters, but the ability to use Stealth effectively in Lighter Armor and a decent initiative RAW based on Dex means you might be able to join the party scout on recon and potentially get 2 rounds off before your opponents do anything. 1 level in Rogue makes this even better. Realistically this is your equalizer.

[Satori01]

LudicSavant has a good pitch on the Dex Fighter.

Personally, I believe a more balanced approach is better, in the long run. Nothing guarantees one finding a Flame Tongue Rapier. A balanced stat array....not only is part of a healthy diet, but means you can adapt to overcome any situation ....which is the point of being a warrior.

A couple of minor counterpoints:

1) a Dex Dump stat Heavy armor fighter, can concentrate ASI on STR and CON, ignoring Dex in the short run.

Low STR means a low Jump movement. The impact of Jumping varies from campaign to campaign, but if terrain plays a factor, STR is generally better for climbing, swimming etc.

2) While this is again campaign dependent, but some of the levels that you save 1000 gp, by skipping Plate Mail...1k gp just isn't that much money.
Also see looting dead people for Plate armor...it happens in D&D I'm told. 😀

In other campaigns one can never buy magic items....hopefully you can buy wardogs still....wardogs are useful.

If you can buy potions, get some potions of Jump.

My last point is you only get 3 Attunement spots. Even magical items are subject to marginal utility.
Being able to buy a few more "meh" uncommon items is just character sheet bloat.

You are better off buying wardogs, you can go through wardogs faster then arrows.

3) Initiative. While I agree that going first is generally better, I've been in plenty of situations, where tactically being lower in the Initiative order would be better.

A generalist STR/CON fighter with: 14 Dex, the Archery Fighting Style, the Shield Master feat, and Resilient (Dex), would not be severely weaker then a 14 Str DEX/CON fighter with the same setup.

If you want to play a DEX fighter, it definitely works well.
If you like wardogs, absolutely play one. 😉

[MaxWilson]

The main advantage of Strength for an optimizer comes in the form of Shove/Grapple, or if you're really focusing your build around GWM (for example, if your build gets near-constant melee Advantage and a high crit rate).

I want to add a layer of clarity to what LudicSavant is saying here:

The advantage of GWM over regular Dexy weapons with Dueling style is substantial, often similar in magnitude to the effects of gaining advantage (~+25%), and when you do have advantage already (due to allies shoving prone or Reckless or Mounted Combatant or whatnot) the damage bonus is often on the order of +50% (depending on AC, etc.). Other feats like Polearm Master can increase your damage further (or help you gain advantage without relying on others).

Are there ways for a Dex fighter to even the odds? Yes, through spells like Shadow Blade, which comes with their own costs (concentration). But you have to know how to do that, and if you don't, then the Dexy weapons can feel pretty anemic in a fight, especially if you choose a fighting style other than Dueling.

TL;DR LudicSavant's not wrong about Dex weapons being pretty similar to Str weapons "to an optimizer", but if you approach the game in a simple and straightforward way, Dex melee weapons are noticeably worse they are for combat "optimizers". (Dex ranged weapons are fantastic though.)

It's also worth mentioning that most magic weapons in the DMG are weapons that require Strength to use effectively: longswords, greatswords, axes, maces, etc. If you should ever happen to find Blackrazor for example (a ridiculously overpowered soul-eating greatsword modeled on Stormbringer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormbringer) from Michael Moorcock's Elric novels) you will use it far more effectively if you have a high Strength. On the other hand, there are magical items which set your Strength to absurdly high levels, too, so in theory you could use a Girdle of Storm Giant Strength and Blackrazor together... if you were lucky enough to find both items.

[Tanarii]

IMX Dex Fighters that also want to stealth and switch hit to use longer ranged missile fire tend to lag significantly behind in AC at lower levels. They're typically 3 down at first level, 5 vs a Str S&B. If you're willing to up your Dex as fast as possible you can get to 1 pt behind at level 8 (or 6 if you started with a 16), but not all players want to go that route. They often want Con for durability or Feats.

The main disadvantage of a Dex S&B is lacking Athletics and having significantly lower Str saves. Acrobatics isn't a substitute, except for resisting grapples.

Edit: and limiting your found magic weapon use of course. That varies from not noticeable at all (DMs that tailor weapons) to extremely important (playing modules or DM rolls randomly).

[Yakmala]

Another advantage of being a Dex fighter.

As a Dex fighter, you might someday find a Belt of Giant Strength, giving you anywhere from 21 to 29 Strength, allowing you to grapple well, wear heavy armor and effectively use heavy weapons while still maintaining most of the benefits of having a high Dexterity.

There is no equivalent line of magic items for Dexterity as a Strength fighter.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Dex armour is less conspicuous, but strength also helps with carrying capacity and jumping (jumping has only ever came up one time that didn’t get circumvented easily before in my experience so far)

[MrStabby]

As others have mentioned, there is great feat support for strength melee weapons in a way that there really isn't for dex weapons. However I would stress that you do have to spend a feat on these.

Getting PAM instead of a stat increase does lower your skills, your attack roll and your damage when you don't use it. Or you could use that feat fore somthing like resiliance to boost your wisdom saves, or the lucky feat or whatever.


Generally I prefer the strength based fighter if there is a melee option, although it does depend on the subclass. Fighters, with thier extra ASI, can afford a more feat intensive path. A lot of the fighter subclasses provide better support to heavy weapon fighting than finesse fighting - mainly due to accuracy boosts being great with GWM. Then there are buffs - if someone in the party has bless then GWM becomes better, if they would be casting bless; if they would be casting crusader's mantle then dex benefits a little more. That said, there really isn't a lot in it - the dexterity bonuses to initiative and stealth are pretty huge from dexterity - I think it all comes down to what you want to do with your bonus action.

[Gtdead]

Without getting into magic items at all and considering a straight up fighter build, the main advantage of a Dex build is Shield Mastery, Initiative and Stealth.

From an optimization standpoint, EK is the better DEX fighter. Considering that such a build is focused more on Defense rather than offense, defensive spells are more synergistic than anything else in the fighter's repertoire. And offensively he has access to Shadowblade, which more than competes with STR GWM builds for when he needs to deal that damage, even if it has limited uses per day.

Now AC is problematic. Reason being that 2h builds get too little mileage out of GWF making Defense the superior option. Dueling on the other hand offers a pretty substantial increase. I still think that Defense is better, but I believe most people would go for Dueling.

To offer a more indepth perspective, at lvl 1 with a +3 modifier to damage:

STR build with GS:
Average Damage per attack: 7 (2d6)+3 = 10
With GWF: 8.3 (2d6) +3 = 11.3
An increase of 13%.

DEX build with Rapier
Average Damage per attack: 4.5(1d8)+3 = 7.5
With Dueling: 4.5(1d8)+3+2 = 9.5
An increase of 26.6%

And considering that STR builds go for GWM, adding all those flat modifiers makes GWF totally irrelevant against most targets.
Dueling also becomes irrelevant if the build has access to Shadowblade, but considering that it is a spell, accessed at lvl 8, with limited uses per day, the bulk of fighting will be without it.

So effectively, a Shield Wielding dex build will have the same AC as a shieldless 2h STR build. This is something I dislike and all the more reason to go EK for access to defensive spells. This is the worst part about being a dex fighter imo.

Health is going to be the same.

[greenstone]

strength also helps with carrying capacity…
That can be very important.

I GMed a game where everyone dumped STR (the highest in the party was 10). Carrying treasure turned into an interesting exercise, espeically after I found out they'd all been just ignoring the encumbrance rules (one character with 8 strength was carrying three sets of heavy armour they had looted).

Carrying a downed party member away from a combat turned into a major exercise (with the character dropping equipment just so they could carry their mate without speed penalty).

Getting treasure back to the boat, a day's march away, because an intricate plan involving a druid wild shaped into a polar bear dragging a home-made sledge while another character carried stuff on a flying broom. I liked that one. The players were smart and creative is working around the problem.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Gotta say it.

If you are playing the fighter with low STR, then who do you expect will fill the role of the high STR character in the party? Not the caster! Who's gonna carry the caster when they drop to zero HP? Who's gonna force open that stuck door, or lift that top off of the sarcophagus?

If not you, fighter, then who?

[Spiritchaser]

Lots of general replies but, how about two specific ones that nearly always seem to come up for me?

Dex fighters have a much easier time being stealthy, which can be a very big deal, or it can be nearly meaningless depending on your campaign and your DM, but generally, it’s pretty important.

Str fighters can leverage PAM and sentinel with a reach weapon to lock down incoming targets in a way that Dex fighters generally cannot. This can work wonders for keeping a lot of foes at bay.

I wouldn’t undersell either of those two points

[MaxWilson]

Gotta say it.

If you are playing the fighter with low STR, then who do you expect will fill the role of the high STR character in the party? Not the caster! Who's gonna carry the caster when they drop to zero HP? Who's gonna force open that stuck door, or lift that top off of the sarcophagus?

If not you, fighter, then who?

IME probably the Druid.

[Tanarii]

Dex armour is less conspicuous, but strength also helps with carrying capacity and jumping (jumping has only ever came up one time that didn’t get circumvented easily before in my experience so far)
Interesting. I saw it happen in many combats. Jumping lets you bypass difficult terrain, and many terrain obstacles.

[MaxWilson]

Interesting. I saw it happen in many combats. Jumping lets you bypass difficult terrain, and many terrain obstacles.

I'm extremely skeptical about jumping letting you bypass difficult terrain. I see nothing about that in the rules, and in many cases it won't make sense--you can't just blithely jump over dense jungle foliage, for example, although you could jump over an oil slick.

[Tanarii]

I'm extremely skeptical about jumping letting you bypass difficult terrain. I see nothing about that in the rules, and in many cases it won't make sense--you can't just blithely jump over dense jungle foliage, for example, although you could jump over an oil slick.
Depends why the terrain is difficult. I agree it's not going to be automatic for all difficult terrain, things like elf-height foliage would be an issue. The height clearance is set for a long jump, so that lets the DM judge pretty well. I was thinking more of rubble or broken / uneven cave floors, since I tended to run a lot of underground adventures.

[Nagog]

Dex would have no impact on your HP at all, and the difference in AC is -1 compared to a Plate wearing Str user if you go for Half Plate (and don't take Medium Armor Master).

While true of Medium Armor, if you're relying on Dex for attacks, damage, and everything else (as a Dex Fighter would be), you'll have maxed out your Dex pretty quick, at which point Studded Leather can get you to 18 AC. So of all the armor types, medium armor is slightly below average in terms of powerbuilding, and further below light armor considering gold costs (and therefore enchanting costs)
Which is unfortunate, as it means Str looses the biggest thing it had going for it with high AC.

[Dork_Forge]

While true of Medium Armor, if you're relying on Dex for attacks, damage, and everything else (as a Dex Fighter would be), you'll have maxed out your Dex pretty quick, at which point Studded Leather can get you to 18 AC. So of all the armor types, medium armor is slightly below average in terms of powerbuilding, and further below light armor considering gold costs (and therefore enchanting costs)
Which is unfortunate, as it means Str looses the biggest thing it had going for it with high AC.

The only way Studded leather gets you 18 is with Defense, which would also put medium armor at 18, Studded Armor is 12 + Dex not , 13+.

[Bosh]

From an optimization perspective missing out on sharpshooter or great weapon mastery hurts dex fighter melee builds.

[MaxWilson]

From an optimization perspective missing out on sharpshooter or great weapon mastery hurts dex fighter melee builds.

Unless you Shadow Blade. (Or Blade Song, from the Book of Lost Spells, but it's pretty similar to Shadow Blade in DPR terms.)