Is complete evil truly evil?

[Conradine]

Little thought.

Fiends ( devil, demons, daemons ) are regarded as totally , completely evil. Not simply irredemable, but utterly unable of the slightest good / selfless / benevolent action.

But, can an entity who's completely incapable of choosing something else than evil be considered truly evil, or it's instead a ( very complex and mabye indeterministic ) automaton?

The very foundation of the whole Good / Evil is the concept of choice. If a fiend is truly unable to do, or at least consider, a non-evil action, that makes it devoid of any measure of free will.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Little thought.

Fiends ( devil, demons, daemons ) are regarded as totally , completely evil. Not simply irredemable, but utterly unable of the slightest good / selfless / benevolent action.

But, can an entity who's completely incapable of choosing something else than evil be considered truly evil, or it's instead a ( very complex and mabye indeterministic ) automaton?

The very foundation of the whole Good / Evil is the concept of choice. If a fiend is truly unable to do, or at least consider, a non-evil action, that makes it devoid of any measure of free will.It's possible for a fiend, even a demon, devil, or yugoloth, who are literally composed of elemental Evil, to be Neutral, or even Good. It's just very, very, very rare, and just as difficult a path to walk.

Just like how celestials can fall from grace, fiends can rise to it.

Whether they will or not is another question, but even morally elemental outsiders have a choice about how to act.

It's just that most choose to act in a way concordant with their natures.

It takes a lot to overcome this, but it's not impossible, as evidenced by the (granted, quite silly) succubus paladin crafted by WotC.

Personally, I'd have the very nature of a full fiend change with an alignment swap, just how becoming more evil and powerful results in a physical metamorphosis into a stronger fiend, but that's just me.

[edit] Of course, with spells that change alignments as well as cursed items like a specific helm involved, things get weird, but it's a thing that can happen, so...

[Conradine]

My question now is: an Evil outsider - who stays evil - does a non evil action or at least a non evil thought every so often, even if only 1 time in 1000 years?

[Morty]

Yes, this is a fundamental and inescapable flaw in the very concept of "inherent" or "cosmic" good/evil. It's why I think so very little of it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

My question now is: an Evil outsider - who stays evil - does a non evil action or at least a non evil thought every so often, even if only 1 time in 1000 years?Not every thought or action can be purely evil, even in a purely evil being. After all, when given the choice between which ring of protection it wants, the green one or the blue one, there's really no "evil" choice between the two.

[Conradine]

Mh, I mean a morally relevant action or thought.
For example can we assume that guys as Mephistopheles or Belial feel a tiny shiver of compassion once in a century?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

You could rule that while mortals have to choose to be evil, which protects mortal dumb animals from being evil, fiends just are. There's no real reason why fantasy evil, evil in a world where evil is an actual proven physical force from a real plane of existence, couldn't work like that. Some fiends always go for their self interest first to the most extreme degree, others often indulge in long bouts of meaningless torture and others still choose their poison based on how they feel today, but all of them are always evil, because that's their nature and the nature of evil in this place.

Yes, in some ways this makes them like automatons or golems, but in other ways they're incorruptably evil. An automaton can be reprogrammed, an animal can be trained, a human can be reasoned with. Against a demon any time you spend trying is just spent digging your own grave. Whether they laugh off your attempts or masterfully deceive you to win time or even your trust, they will stay evil. Their nature could also have an impact on how mortals view outsiders. Is the lawful good fighter leading the party still impressed by the angel of battle rushing to their aid knowing it never had to overcome inner demons and was always just going to be like this?

I'm not saying the alignment system makes sense, not even compared to the magic of d&d. I'm just saying that if we accept this system as part of the world of the game I don't think the idea of fiends being evil is the biggest problem with it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Mh, I mean a morally relevant action or thought.
For example can we assume that guys as Mephistopheles or Belial feel a tiny shiver of compassion once in a century?I'd think it would take a significant series of events to put one of the lower level fiends in such a situation. Someone or something would have to engineer it so that they would feel something other than contempt, scorn, or perverse pleasure in suffering.

However, archfiends (both demon lords and archdevils) appear to have more leeway in their natures, despite being the "pinnacle" of elemental Evil. Belial and his daughter feel true affection for each other, and certain other archfiends are a lot less overtly, mindlessly cruel than one would think. Some are even pleasant, and despite working to further the cause of the lower planes, actually do decent things occasionally. Pazuzu, for instance, will grant [Good] wishes (which are, by definition, Good acts) for those who call out to him (albeit to corrupt them to his side), and other archfiends occasionally befriend (and feel some amount of affection for) mortals, who they sometimes treat fairly decently and have some amount of loyalty to, even if said mortals aren't themselves Evil people. Graz'zt, by all accounts, is a very kind and attentive lover to a mortal he favors (of, apparently, either gender, and regardless of alignment; he's an equal-opportunity demon-lover). Now, if said mortals betray them, or they find a good enough reason to do the betraying, all bets are off.

So, yes, fiends are definitely capable of positive feelings and actions, although many are done with long-term goals in mind that tend to result in more evil; it's just that the overwhelming majority don't even give such things a second thought (or a first thought, for that matter).

[Psyren]

Rare/random acts of compassion don't stop you from being evil.

Relevant example:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLZOFZggG4w

[Lagtime]

Fiends ( devil, demons, daemons ) are regarded as totally , completely evil. Not simply irredemable, but utterly unable of the slightest good / selfless / benevolent action.


Well, I'd point out that fiends are not irredeemable: there are plenty of examples of fiends doing so.

And in no way are fiends "unable" to do a slightest good / selfless / benevolent action.

Every being does good, neutral and evil acts. Though mostly very least ones.


Also choice is not much part of alignment: you are an alignment by your choices...but choing your actions is only part of the whole.

[Yanagi]

Little thought.

Fiends ( devil, demons, daemons ) are regarded as totally , completely evil. Not simply irredemable, but utterly unable of the slightest good / selfless / benevolent action.

But, can an entity who's completely incapable of choosing something else than evil be considered truly evil, or it's instead a ( very complex and mabye indeterministic ) automaton?

The very foundation of the whole Good / Evil is the concept of choice. If a fiend is truly unable to do, or at least consider, a non-evil action, that makes it devoid of any measure of free will.

Your definition isn't valid, so the subsequent argument doesn't hold together. "Absolute Evil precludes all miniscule-g good thoughts and acts" is not D&D setting metaphysics. Fiends are Astral beings and Astral beings seem to be made of thoughts, and those thoughts are the product of some kind of gestalt of sapient thought, but at the same time there is a kind of radical autonomy to sapience such that individual choices can override fundamental nature.

On a basic level, Outer Planes beings are capable of being an alignment different than the type dictates, so being "made of [an alignment]" is not a bar to being a different alignment. In particular, the sheer volume of fallen archons in every edition is telling on this point.

Furthermore, fiends are sapient beings who are clearly capable of understanding the operation and function of "good" behavior and engage in that behavior as a shorter-term means to an longer-term end, so there's no cognitive limitation nor a behavioral limitation. Furthermore, they are depicted as capable of (1) exercising whim, (2) seeking positive sensation, which strongly suggests a path by which an individual fiend could in the moment make an unforced "Good" act and even have altruistic intentions in the moment, only to retreat to a more familiar self-serving modality.

Still further, there is clearly a cultural component to fiend existence: lower types of fiends are locked into social frameworks that teach them how things work, and those that express the "values" of their society rise to become higher types of fiends. Apex fiends dictate terms of society organization and make...staffing choices...that create top-down cultural paradigms such that it's not even a matter of a plane or layer having a uniform culture.

Finally...if your premise is "Evil is a substance and fiends are whole of that substance therefore they cannot choose Good acts" then presence or absence of free will is moot: within the framework of the metaphysic Evil is a thing unto itself and it's own measure. Their autonomy does not matter. You're applying outside-of-frame reasoning (Doylean) to an inside-of-frame (Watsonian) issue.

[NigelWalmsley]

Asking complicated questions based on D&D alignment gives you stupid answers, because D&D alignment is stupid. It is the morality of a saturday morning cartoon, and it only works if you are willing to settle for "the bad guys are bad because they're bad and we need to fight them because they're good" levels of explanation. Which is okay, as long as you understand that the point of alignment is not to provide a coherent system of ethics. If you want to have meaningful ethical discussions, the first thing you need to do is discard the notion of a "Team Evil" and a "Team Good".

[Vaern]

Evil outsiders are evil because, as outsiders, they're made up of the essence of their home plane. They are the literal physical embodiment of evil. But, they still have free will. Evil can be tempted by good, just as good can be tempted by evil. There are rules in the core rulebooks to accommodate good evil outsiders, and for evil good outsiders. A demon can be good, for example, but is still physically composed of the essence of evil; in this case, spells that affect good creatures will affect the devil as that is its true alignment, while spells that affect evil creatures will also affect the devil because it is technically evil incarnate.

[Segev]

They can still be evil. They are hurting people because they like it or it's convenient, and with no guilt. They experience ... problems ... if they act truly good.

But they do have free will. It's just harder to change their nature than for mortals, because they're so thoroughly tainted by their evil that they have to actually change their spiritual makeup. We talk of turning from neutral or evil to good as "purifying oneself" when mortals do it, and the reverse "corrupting oneself." It's little different for fiends or celestials, save the severity of the purity or corruption and the fact that the process is more...dramatic...and harder to enact. They're more set in their ways.

[Duke of Urrel]

If we assume that your alignment is determined by what you do, not what you intend to do, it's not hard to understand that creatures that are "evil by necessity" are indeed evil. In D&D, you're judged by your actions, not your intentions. (Evil creatures are literally evil "in deed," that is, evil because they act that way.) It's very simple.

We can also be sure that creatures that are evil by necessity enjoy being evil just fine. Their necessary evil is not like the effect of a magical compulsion; it's more like the effect of a magical charm. Cosmic Evil never forced them to be evil; it won them over.

[Bartmanhomer]

Any fiends (Devils, Yugoloths, and Demons) have a 1% chance to redeem itself to neutral or even good but that's extremely rare.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Any fiends (Devils, Yugoloths, and Demons) have a 1% chance to redeem itself to neutral or even good but that's extremely rare.It should be far, far, far less than 1%. It should be very nearly unique, given there are an infinitude of fiends among the planes. Even 1% would have the planes drowning in Neutral and Good [Evil] outsiders.

[NichG]

I'll take a utilitarian approach here and ask whether this question is even meaningful. Presumably you'd worry about this point in order to make decisions at some time in the future, and this might impact the ethics of those decisions.

So, lets say you conclude that fiends don't have a choice and so they cannot be blamed for their actions and are therefore not evil (they're still Evil, to distinguish D&D alignments which might as well just be an energy type). However, even without choice, they'll still commit horrible atrocities, provoke mortals to choose Evil as often as possible, torture those souls that fall into their grasp, etc. So what exactly is the decision that you're going to make differently on concluding that fiends aren't truly evil? If the conclusion is that they're automata, then would you decide not to turn them off even if they're doing harm?

If you conclude that fiends have no choice but are still evil, then the same goes - what has reaching that conclusion changed about what you would do?

And if you conclude that fiends do have a choice because they can sometimes be redeemed, and therefore are responsible for their actions, what changes?

[Bartmanhomer]

It should be far, far, far less than 1%. It should be very nearly unique, given there are an infinitude of fiends among the planes. Even 1% would have the planes drowning in Neutral and Good [Evil] outsiders.

Yes. I definitely agree that it less than 1%. Maybe 0.000000000000000000000000000001%.

[Kyutaru]

So a few thoughts...

1) Demons/Devils are made of evil. Like whatever elemental force of evil exists demons are an incarnation of that thing. They're physical souls. That doesn't mean they have to always act evil just they are, by definition, evil. They once worked hand in hand with the rest of creation and served as the torturers of evil souls and the realms of the evil dead. An important job worthy of respect.

2) The same once fought side-by-side with the angels and good creatures to defend existence from chaos. Despite being evil the Devils are still Lawful and were quite willing to set aside differences to uphold that particular axis even if meant working with guys they didn't particularly like. There were even past books that referenced them as being particularly nasty only to souls, as is their cosmic duty. They might be bad guys in the eyes of humans but other planar entities see them as something they do want around with a purpose.

3) There isn't so much a Good vs Evil dynamic going on in the planes as there is an Evil vs Evil one. Demons and devils just don't get along at all and there are constant wars between them. They hate each other more than they hate anything Good which tells you that the primordial Law and Chaos seems to play a much bigger role in the cosmos (and rightly so given its history).

[Bartmanhomer]

So a few thoughts...

1) Demons/Devils are made of evil. Like whatever elemental force of evil exists demons are an incarnation of that thing. They're physical souls. That doesn't mean they have to always act evil just they are, by definition, evil. They once worked for hand in hand with the rest of creation and served as the torturers of evil souls and the realms of the evil dead. An important job is worthy of respect.

2) The same once fought side-by-side with the angels and good creatures to defend existence from chaos. Despite being evil the Devils are still Lawful and were quite willing to set aside differences to uphold that particular axis even if meant working with guys they didn't particularly like. There were even past books that referenced them as being particularly nasty only to souls, as is their cosmic duty. They might be bad guys in the eyes of humans but other planar entities see them as something they do want around with a purpose.

3) There isn't so much a Good vs Evil dynamic going on in the planes as there is an Evil vs Evil one. Demons and devils just don't get along at all and there are constant wars between them. They hate each other more than they hate anything Good which tells you that the primordial Law and Chaos seem to play a much bigger role in the cosmos (and rightly so given its history).
That where the Blood Wars come into play. Evil vs. Evil due to the difference of ethical axis between the Lawful Evil Devils against the Chaotic Devils play a much bigger role in their conflict of wars. As for the Neutral Evil yugoloths....well they can be on either side of the table. They don't care which side they're on.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That was the Blood Wars can into play. Evil vs. Evil due to the difference of ethical axis between the Lawful Evil Devils against the Chaotic Devils play a much bigger role in their conflict of wars. As for the Neutral Evil yugoloths....well they can be on either side of the table. They don't care which side they're on.They're on their own side. They just whore themselves out hire themselves out as mercenaries in the Blood War, while sabotaging both sides for both amusement and their own benefit.

[Bartmanhomer]

They're on their own side. They just whore themselves out hire themselves out as mercenaries in the Blood War, while sabotaging both sides for both amusement and their own benefit.

Exactly the Yugoloths posed even a bigger threat just for the fun of it.

[Pinkie Pyro]

really the big issues is you have to define exactly what "evil" is.

This is why i always have my players right down 2 alignments: ends and means.

if someone's goals are to save the world, they're good, but if they HAVE to sacrifice 13 orphans to do it, and they're willing too, it doesn't change the goal.

if someone wants to rule the world with an iron fist, but they do it by legitimately winning an election and keeping public opinion positive, to the world they (probably) seem good, but it's all for selfish reasons.

what you want and what you are willing to do both matter.

for an "always evil" race, they would never *want* to do something that doesn't benefit them. they set things up so that they get what they want when they help others. there's no altruism. it doesn't mean they don't spare their enemies, it's that they spare them to use them for their own means and for no other reason.

also: applying logical morality to DnD is just tiresome. if you apply things like "always evil" as mental archtypes instead of morality, it's much easier.

[Asmotherion]

I don't remember the actual example, but I'm pertty sure there was 2-3 examples of Devils who became good, and thus banished from the 9;

However, what we have to understand is, being good for a Devil is completelly counter-intuative, and the very concept of good is held as a prime example of what NOT to do in their societal standards. Even cases that end up as altruistic good action from a devil, must have an egoistical and ultimatelly evil justification, for example manipulation, influence gain, or exposing an other party (that may be an equally evil other party) for the Devil to be able to rationalise it.

Thus, a Devil embracing good, is kinda the equivalent of a human embracing an Elder Brain as his Patron, and acting in favor of the Mind Flayer society, without having been turned into a mind flayer himself. It can happen, but only a subject that would be considered mad by his own society would actually do it.

Similarly, an average agent of good would seriously doupt the devil's motives, if not outright attack them.

So, we have a being who has been brainwached from the day of it's creation with a phylosophy that revolves around dominance, power and influence networks that would, by it's own free will cut of ties with the 9 hells (and any influence and/or subordinates he has there), and knows he won't make any friends with any good creatures for doing it.

Overall, it can happen for things like love for example, to give a devil a thought of desserting, but no Devil in it's right mind would actually follow through.

That is, for a devil to actually follow through with an attempt at disertion. Then, the Devil must either be smart enough or strong enough to be able to actually get away with it. Think the most sadistic Tyrant you can think of; That's nothing compared to what Asmodeus would do to a traitor, or anyone who fails to disipline that traitor, or fails to catch them before they disert.

So, maybe there has been 10 succesful diserters in the history of the 9 hells? In any case it would be a verry small number. The vast majority would probably attempt to go to the Chaotic Axis, and claim Demonhood. Others would perhaps settle for a more neutral phylosophy, and even more rare are those who would embrace good.

[Bartmanhomer]

I think we can all agree that Yugoloths are the biggest threat between the three evil outsiders of them all.

[NichG]

My metaplot for Planescape is that the Yugoloths did their experiments in the definition and nature of evil in order to gain self-determination. They are defined by the cosmos to be 'pure Evil', but if they can control what mortals think Evil is, they can construct free will for themselves. However, rather than this going the way they want, it drove the General of Gehenna so crazy that he started a curio shop in Sigil, trying to push the multiverse towards the 'affably evil' trope: becoming A'kin, the Friendly Fiend, and generally explaining why movers and shakers like Shemeska the Marauder maintain a long-term rivalry with him without just wiping him out.

[Bartmanhomer]

My metaplot for Planescape is that the Yugoloths did their experiments in the definition and nature of evil in order to gain self-determination. They are defined by the cosmos to be 'pure evil', but if they can control what mortals think Evil is, they can construct free will for themselves. However, rather than this going the way they want, it drove the General of Gehenna so crazy that he started a curio shop in Sigil, trying to push the multiverse towards the 'affably evil' trope: becoming A'kin, the Friendly Fiend, and generally explaining why movers and shakers like Shemeska the Marauder maintain a long-term rivalry with him without just wiping him out.

Yes. I just wish there are more Yugoloth Lords out there besides the General.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yes. I just wish there are more Yugoloth Lords out there besides the General.I shall call him...Dr. Evil.

And don't forget Mini-Me.

[Bartmanhomer]

I shall call him...Dr. Evil.

And don't forget Mini-Me.

Ex-Zip-It A. :biggrin:

[Kyutaru]

I think we can all agree that Yugoloths are the biggest threat between the three evil outsiders of them all.Plus they're neutral.

With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals, who knows? It sickens me.

What makes a man turn neutral ... Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

[Bartmanhomer]

Plus they're neutral.

With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals, who knows? It sickens me.

What makes a man turn neutral ... Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

Neutral Evil in that regards yes. Yugoloths don't care if it's Lawful Evil or Chaotic Evil. They're just plain Neutral Evil.

[Chauncymancer]

But, can an entity who's completely incapable of choosing something else than evil be considered truly evil, or it's instead a ( very complex and mabye indeterministic ) automaton?

The very foundation of the whole Good / Evil is the concept of choice. If a fiend is truly unable to do, or at least consider, a non-evil action, that makes it devoid of any measure of free will.

The idea that free will is necessary to being Good or Evil isn't one we can really discuss on this forum, so let's just leave it at "there's nowhere I can find in the writeup on Alignment to suggest that you need to be able to choose to be Good or Evil, so creatures can have those alignments even if they don't choose them. "

[False God]

Little thought.

Fiends ( devil, demons, daemons ) are regarded as totally , completely evil. Not simply irredemable, but utterly unable of the slightest good / selfless / benevolent action.
Emphasis mine, they are?


But, can an entity who's completely incapable of choosing something else than evil be considered truly evil, or it's instead a ( very complex and mabye indeterministic ) automaton?

The very foundation of the whole Good / Evil is the concept of choice. If a fiend is truly unable to do, or at least consider, a non-evil action, that makes it devoid of any measure of free will.

Well, without going into forbidden topics, if we look at the source material, no, they don't actually have free will.

[hamishspence]

Emphasis mine, they are?




They might be regarded that way, in and out of universe, but there's plenty of evidence to support the notion that they are not that way.

[Psyren]

It should be far, far, far less than 1%. It should be very nearly unique, given there are an infinitude of fiends among the planes. Even 1% would have the planes drowning in Neutral and Good [Evil] outsiders.


Yes. I definitely agree that it less than 1%. Maybe 0.000000000000000000000000000001%.

Consider also that, whatever the percentage is, the chances of meeting one who has changed alignment are even more slim. All of the outer planes are designed to stamp out any alignments that don't fit in with their ethos - just as an outsider doing evil in the Upper Planes will get quickly reformed or cast out, trying to do good down below will most likely result in eradication. And even if they are capable of hiding their change in outlook, the most likely result of an outsider shifting like that is changing their form entirely, much like fallen angels becoming fiends over time.


Neutral Evil in that regards yes. Yugoloths don't care if it's Lawful Evil or Chaotic Evil. They're just plain Neutral Evil.

I believe Kyutaru wasn't being totally serious (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY6RyRkl9uo)

[Bartmanhomer]

Consider also that, whatever the percentage is, the chances of meeting one who has changed alignment are even slimmer. All of the outer planes are designed to stamp out any alignments that don't fit in with their ethos - just as an outsider doing evil in the Upper Planes will get quickly reformed or cast out, trying to do good down below will most likely result in eradication. And even if they are capable of hiding their change in outlook, the most likely result of an outsider shifting like that is changing their form entirely, much like fallen angels becoming friends over time.



I believe Kyutaru wasn't being totally serious (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY6RyRkl9uo)
I know there's a spell that can change from evil to good including their outsider form. It's in the Book of Exalted Deeds. The Sanctification Spell or something like that. :confused:

[Psyren]

I know there's a spell that can change from evil to good including their outsider form. It's in the Book of Exalted Deeds. The Sanctification Spell or something like that. :confused:

Well not quite - that spell doesn't actually work on fiends as written, because it turns the subject into a sanctified creature, and the template specifically disallows itself from being applied to [evil] outsiders.

[Bartmanhomer]

Well not quite - that spell doesn't actually work on fiends as written, because it turns the subject into a sanctified creature, and the template specifically disallows itself from being applied to [evil] outsiders.

Really? Wow, I thought that spell work also for fiends as well. Another error for RAW (Rules As Written) yet again. :eek: :sigh:

[Psyren]

Really? Wow I thought that spell work also work for fiends as well. Another error for RAW (Rules As Written) yet again. :eek: :sigh:

An easy fix is for the spell, if used on a fiend, is to transform them to an equivalent celestial. For example, a devil will become an archon, a demon will become an eladrin/azata etc. You may have to draw on PF or other sources to find a match for every CR though.

With that said - even if it doesn't do anything to fiends at all, there are plenty of other difficult-to-convert evil creatures it will work on, like aberrations and chromatic dragons.

Weirdly enough, the spell and template seem like they should work on undead. No idea what the result will be in that case.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

An easy fix is for the spell, if used on a fiend, is to transform them to an equivalent celestial. For example, a devil will become an archon, a demon will become an eladrin/azata etc. You may have to draw on PF or other sources to find a match for every CR though.

With that said - even if it doesn't do anything to fiends at all, there are plenty of other difficult-to-convert evil creatures it will work on, like aberrations and chromatic dragons.

Weirdly enough, the spell and template seem like they should work on undead. No idea what the result will be in that case.Undead aren't automatically Evil, even if they ping as [Evil] to detect spells.

So they remain undead, but [...?]* and then you profit!







*Perhaps it just turns them Neutral if they're Evil, and they no longer detect as [Evil]?

[Bartmanhomer]

An easy fix is for the spell, if used on a fiend, is to transform them to an equivalent celestial. For example, a devil will become an archon, a demon will become an eladrin/azata etc. You may have to draw on PF or other sources to find a match for every CR though.

With that said - even if it doesn't do anything to fiends at all, there are plenty of other difficult-to-convert evil creatures it will work on, like aberrations and chromatic dragons.

Weirdly enough, the spell and template seem like they should work on undead. No idea what the result will be in that case.

Let face it, Wizard Of The Coast isn't perfect. :annoyed:

[SangoProduction]

It's possible for a fiend, even a demon, devil, or yugoloth, who are literally composed of elemental Evil, to be Neutral, or even Good. It's just very, very, very rare, and just as difficult a path to walk.

Just like how celestials can fall from grace, fiends can rise to it.

Whether they will or not is another question, but even morally elemental outsiders have a choice about how to act.

It's just that most choose to act in a way concordant with their natures.

It takes a lot to overcome this, but it's not impossible, as evidenced by the (granted, quite silly) succubus paladin crafted by WotC.

Personally, I'd have the very nature of a full fiend change with an alignment swap, just how becoming more evil and powerful results in a physical metamorphosis into a stronger fiend, but that's just me.

[edit] Of course, with spells that change alignments as well as cursed items like a specific helm involved, things get weird, but it's a thing that can happen, so...

Well done on the response. Basically what I was going to post.

[Bartmanhomer]

Wait a minute isn't there a homebrew version of the sanctification spell somewhere in this forum? :confused:

[Vaern]

As far as I can tell, Programmed Amnesia and Mindrape work on evil outsiders. Mindrape doesn't have the caveat that Programmed Amnesia does requiring that the subject be given a believable reason for why they changed alignment. There's nothing in the description to prevent it from turning creatures good, even if it is an [evil] spell from BoVD.

[mindstalk]

Undead aren't automatically Evil, even if they ping as [Evil] to detect spells.


Most undead types are Always Evil. Exceptions are mummies, "usually" evil, and ghosts, "any" alignment.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Most undead types are Always Evil. Exceptions are mummies, "usually" evil, and ghosts, "any" alignment.Except undead, simply by dint of being undead, are not inherently evil. Some types of undead, yes, just like some types of outsiders are always evil. However, outsiders aren't evil by dint of being outsiders any more than undead are by being undead.

[Edea]

For outsiders I'd also go with the 'they literally change into the appropriate alignment form'. There's precedent for this with the 'fallen angel' concept.

Anything not actually composed of alignment energy should have a more flexible alignment.

Being undead should not make you "evil". Making undead should be what does it, and unfortunately a lot of undead tend to spawn more undead (most of them via a method that's clearly by choice, i.e. an attack rider).

[hamishspence]

While "celestials metamorphosing into fiends" has precedent, there's also precedent for "this takes longer than actual alignment change does".

It tends to be "first the celestial becomes evil, then they start metamorphosing into a fiend".

[redking]

Tenuously connected to the lore:

Evil outsiders like Baatezu that are formed from the souls of evil folk are essentially spirits, and don't really have the ability to change. They had a lifetime to do that, and chose evil.

That said, the exception proves the rule, so what would happen if they did changed and became good, for example? I'd guess that their physical form would change to reflect their new alignment.

[hamishspence]

Fall-From-Grace, in Planescape Torment, is a succubus (those are created from the souls of CE mortals with a strong affinity for lust) who, thanks to spending a long time away from the Abyss (I think she was kidnapped by devils, then eventually escaped them) has changed alignment from CE to LN.

Her appearance and powers, however, has not changed.

She's been referenced elsewhere - in the Demonomicon of Iggwilv: Malcanthet article, in Dragon Magazine.