Villainous Competition XXXVII: Yin and Yang

[jdizzlean]

Welcome to Round 37 of the Villainous Competition!

Previous Competitions

Round One: Leader of Armies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?395046)
Round Two: Nature's Revenger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?400517)
Round Three: Double Agent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406015)
Round Four: Grave Keeper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?413480)
Round Five: Crime Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?420704)
Round Six: Ultimate Predator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430650)
Round Seven: Wicked Witch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444478)
Round Eight: Master of the Tundra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?461482)
Round Nine: The Power of Villainous Thinking (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474230)
Round Ten: Henchman Are Villains Too (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?478068)
Round Eleven: The Higher They Rise The Harder They Fall (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?483052)
Round Twelve: Power Comes at a Price (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?488846)
Round Thirteen: The Gadgeteer - You Are Not Batman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?491932)
Round Fourteen: The Thing That Should Not Be (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496091)
Round Fifteen: The Horsemen Are Drawing Nearer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500829)
Round Sixteen: Burn Baby Burn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503974)
Round Seventeen: It's Alive! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?507768)
Round Eighteen: This is Heresy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?511933)
Round Nineteen: He Slimed Me! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?516535)
Round Twenty: Elder Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?521560)
Round Twenty-One: Yarr! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527415-Villainous-Competition-XXI-Yarr!)
Round Twenty-Two: I Am The Night! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?531199-Villainous-Competition-XXII-I-Am-The-Night!)
Round Twenty-Three: Two Heads Are Better Than One! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?535437-Villainous-Competition-XXIII-Two-Heads-Are-Better-Than-One)
Round Twenty-Four: Wrong For The Right Reasons! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?541650-Villainous-Competition-XXIV-Wrong-For-The-Right-Reasons)
Round Twenty-Five: Keeper of the Gate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?550139-Villainous-Competition-XXV-No-Solicitors!)
Round Twenty-Six: Get In MY BELLY (Swallow Whole) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?556705-Villainous-Competition-XXVI-Swallow-Whole!)
Round Twenty-Seven: Multiple Personality Disorder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?559748-Villainous-Competition-XXVII-Multiple-Personality-Disorder)
Round Twenty-Eight: Tiny Only! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?565176-Villainous-Competition-XXVIII-Bad-Things-Come-in-Small-Packages)
Round Twenty-Nine: Halloween Special (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?573496-Villainous-Competition-XXIX-A-Halloween-Special)
Round Thirty: One Feat to Rule Them ALL (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?577930-Villainous-Competition-XXX-One-Feat-to-Rule-Them-ALL)
Round Thirty-One: In Cold Blood (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?582492-Villainous-Competition-XXXI-In-Cold-Blood)
Round Thirty-Two: oh HELL NO! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?586377-Villainous-Competition-XXXII-Oh-HELL-NO!)
Round Thirty-Three: The Do Over (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?589107-Villainous-Competition-XXXIII-The-Do-Over)
Round Thirty-Four: Sword and Board (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?600139-Villainous-Competition-XXXIV-Sword-and-Board)
Round Thirty-Five: I Shall Call Him Mini Me! (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?605444-Villainous-Competition-XXXV-I-Shall-Call-Him-Mini-Me!)
Round Thirty-Six: The Broken Man (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612196-Villainous-Competition-XXXVI-The-Broken-Man)

We're a little different than most of the optimization threads. We run on CR instead of ECL.

Contestants:
You will need to present a write-up of your build with at least one of the following points: 5 CR, 10 CR 15 CR, 20 CR, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20 CR build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

Secret Laboratory:
Competitors will be free to use any official 1st party (WotC) 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Compendium is allowed, but Dragon magazine is disallowed. Unearthed Arcana is allowed. Unupdated 3.0 materials, as well as web exclusives by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Item Familiars and Taint are also banned from the competition. Leadership and all similar abilities are banned for sanity reasons.
Builds that are fully monstrous are allowed at no penalty. All class levels are to be added on as associated class levels.

Elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) is the assumed ability score generation method.
Some monstrous characters can technically qualify for Epic feats as soon as their ECL is over 20. While regular Epic feats will be allowed, Epic Spellcasting and all other Epic feats that affect spells, psionic powers, or item creation are not permitted. Including these would give an unfair advantage over standard characters. For Incarnum characters, Epic Open Chakra feats are allowed; other Epic Incarnum feats are not. The Essentia Capacity increases for Epic capacity as described on p. 212. For all characters, please note that Racial Hit Dice do not count towards Epic Progression; use the regular progression even if the BAB ends up higher than 20.

Deadlines:
Contestants will have until 23:59 MST September 5th to create their builds and PM them to the Supreme Chancellor. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 23:59 MST Saturday Septhember 26th to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted. Deadlines are subject to extension as/if required.

Judging:
Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Build Elegance, Competence and Power, Memorable Villainy.
Keep these questions in mind when judging each category:
Originality - Is it unexpected?
Build Elegance - Is it mechanically pretty?
Competence and Power - Can it do what the concept asks of it? Is this a powerfully-built character?
Memorable Villainy - Is this a villain with style? Will it be the BBEG players long to finally kill and then talk about for weeks?
Unearthed Arcana can be penalized for elegance if the specific feature seems unnecessary or makes the playing field unfair (In this case, you can give a 1 if it makes the field unfair.)
Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. As the Iron Chef competition states, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
You may not judge if you entered the contest, unless you withdraw your submission.

Presentation:
Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Note:
There is now a hard limit on two (2) entries per competitor.

Using the table below, the easiest way to use it is to go to the top left of the private message, and click the little a/A icon. It allows you to see what you're writing.
Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.


CR
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


Code immediately below (spoiler).

CR
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


You can use the table below for Spells.

Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


Code Immediately Below,
Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-



Speculation:
Please don’t post or speculate on possible builds until the reveal, in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
Once builds are revealed, please do not comment on errors or rules issues on entries unless you are a judge. If you have such a comment, wait until the final reveal to post it.

Get ready to share those Evil thoughts. This edition’s villain is:


Yin and Yang


Villain and His Rival



Limitations



Must start off as the same Class, until reaching CR/ECL 5 should be VERY similar regarding their Choices, must have very detailed "points of divergence" fluff and mechanicwise.
Each Contestant must build a Villain and his Main Hero Rival, if the Villain is detailed in one CR Area, the Hero must be too.
Both must be single person, non Semi or totally infinite Beings and have a good, concise and INTERESTING reason for being Rivals.
Must be Good (Hero) and Evil (Villain)


We will award 1st through 3rd places, and a possible Honorable Mention.
So, start your evil plotting!

Submission:
To standardize Entries, please use this format when sending it in:

PM: Jdizzlean
Subject: Villainous Competition 37, Name of your Entry
For Revisions and disputes, do the same thing. It makes it easier for me finding the entries in my mail box.
More questions? PM me with Villainous Competition 35 Questions in the header.

Tips for submitting your entry, provided by Weaselguy:




As always: let's keep it nice.

I'll mention that again - LET'S KEEP IT NICE! Bickering, name calling and nasty comments on the entries or other forum members are not tolerated.

New competition rule: if I feel an individual has been overly disruptive during the course of competition discussion, I will not be accepting and revealing any entries from that individual, and they will also not be allowed to judge. Any judging they enter will not be taken into account for the final tally.

It's sad that it had to come to this, but here's a list of permanently banned (from this Villainous Competition) members:

Novolin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?148361-Novolin)
Yklikt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?133435-Yklikt)

[jdizzlean]

Clarifications

Unearthed Arcana variant rules are limited: The variant character options (such as Wildshape Ranger and Thug Fighter) should not be penalized. Flaws and traits may be penalized by judges, whereas item familiars, gestalt, alternate skill systems, alternate magic systems, alternate crafting rules, generic base classes, LA buyoff, fractional saves/BAB, and bloodlines are banned. Anything not mentioned here is up to individual judges.

d20 Rokugan is not allowed material.

The Dragon Magazine update for Oriental Adventures is in use.

Leadership is banned. Any material that grants you leadership without you specifically taking it should be ignored and may not be traded away for another feat or ACF. Undead Leadership and Dragon Cohort are likewise banned. Wild Cohort and Obtain Familiar are allowed. If you are not sure if a specific feat violates the 'no leadership' rule, err on the side of caution, or ask me.

However, Leadership may be taken to qualify for another feat or class (such as the Great Captain feat or Legendary Leader prestige class), though a character still doesn't get its usual benefit in those cases. This is to allow characters to access unproblematic material that'd otherwise be made unavailable because of the Leadership ban.

On the subject of messaging the chair (me), a few guidelines:
- I am not here to give critiques on your build or guess how the judges might score it!
- For entries, please keep the entry to no more than 2 message, if at all possible.
- For entries, don't expect me to search through your entry and edit in or out material. Entries should be sent to me complete - if there is a later revision, re-submit the full build. PLEASE DON'T INCLUDE TEXT IN YOUR SUBMISSION YOU WANT ME TO EDIT OUT FOR THE POST - SUBMIT IT TO ME EXACTLY HOW I WILL POST THE FINISHED PRODUCT.
- Please make sure the name of your entry is clearly present in the message.

GrayDeath has graciously helped to create the limitations for this round, and will be judging it. Any ruling questions asked in thread will be answered by GD unless I’m asked to intervene with a ruling.

Everyone, have fun!

[Thurbane]

Hmmm, very interesting. A little time intensive to make two builds, but a very cool challenge.

I'll do my best to get something in!



Must start off as the same Class, until reaching CR/ECL 5 should be VERY similar regarding their Choices, must have very detailed "points of divergence" fluff and mechanicwise.


Just to clarify: with the mention of "CR/ECL 5", we're still building based on CR, with it going up to CR 20, right? We don't need to worry about ECLs? Also, must they be creatures that advance by class?

[jdizzlean]

YES, build by CR as per normal, its just if you highlight CR 5 for your villain, you must also highlight ECL 5 for your hero


as for advance by class, i'll leave that up to Grey to clarify

[PrismCat21]

YES, build by CR as per normal, its just if you highlight CR 5 for your villain, you must also highlight ECL 5 for your hero


as for advance by class, i'll leave that up to Grey to clarify

Challenge Rating and Effective Character Level are two very different things. You have to choose between them.
You said to build by CR as normal, and to compare both the villian and hero by CR, but then changed it in the post responding to Thurbane to use ECL for the hero. Are they supposed to be built using different methods? CR for one, ECL for the other? If so, that's what you need to state. Those metrics are not at all comparable.

The villian and hero are limited to starting with class levels under CR/ECL 5. Does that mean you intend for them to be Player races? ('Person' implies Humanoid.) That is a severe limitation if so, and needs clarified. A great deal of non-Humanoid races, even if starting under CR 5, will have an ECL above 5. That also suggests that you intend this round to be more Player Character, than not.

I don't believe you answered Thurbane's question. He asked if we build by CR as normal and don't have to worry about ECL. You confirmed that was correct, and then in the same sentence said to use ECL. Which is it?

Edit: Graydeath, should we be asking you these questions? I just saw the comment at the end of the second post saying you helped set the limitations and would be judging, and that you'd answer any ruling questions. Should we wait until you explain everything and ignore other posts?

[jdizzlean]

prism

this is your final warning. be civil in this competition, stop attacking the chair, or else you'll be banned from it.

[NontheistCleric]

prism

this is your final warning. be civil in this competition, stop attacking the chair, or else you'll be banned from it.
This seems like an overreaction. PrismCat's post could have been a bit less forcefully worded, but it is factually correct. ECL and CR are very distinct mechanics, and it's not made clear in the OP which the hero and villain are supposed to use, or if either the hero or villain can choose between the two.

I also have to agree that your response to Thurbane was not clear; first you answered in the affirmative to 'We don't need to worry about ECL", then proceeded to mention ECL as being applicable to the hero.

Of course, since you seem to have delegated ruling authority to GrayDeath, we can probably wait for the relevant clarifications to come from him. I just wanted to point out that the questions about the clarity of restrictions, at least from my perspective, are justified and not necessarily an attack on you.

[PrismCat21]

This seems like an overreaction.

I completely expected it. It's one of the reasons I stopped participating in the first place. No matter what I did or how I said things, it was taken as an attack. So, I stopped trying to tiptoe around what might or might not be perceived in different ways. I chose to ask questions directly, no emotions or hidden agendas involved. Simple & direct questions/issues, simple & direct reasons/examples for the questions/issues, and requiring a simple & direct response. Didn't matter. It was always an attack. I stopped caring, and at the end, made my feelings known and left.
Notice that the issues weren't addressed. It was an attack when I ask about inconsistencies while giving clear examples, but legitimate when someone else asks about the same.

How someone else chooses to interpret something is wholly on them. It's rarely even close to what was said, or implied in any way.

[AvatarVecna]

I'll sign up to judge this round.

[Thurbane]

Hey guys, lets all try to be respectful of the chair and each other. It's a just for fun comp, and I know its easy to get frustrated with certain things, but lets all be cool to each other. We're all here to have fun.

The chair has advised Graydeath will be helping to clarify the limitations/crunch for the round - lets wait for that reply, and hopefully should all be more clear. :smallsmile:

[GrayDeath]

Please lets all stay civil.

Prism, while I dont think your post was only interpretable as an attack, the tone DOES influence the music, and coming across as overtly negative/critizising EVERYTHING is a great way to make chairs loose the fun of doing this, which, might I remind you, we all are doing in our free time, with the goals of having FUN.


as for the general Questions:

I suggested the players to be able to choose from 3 different variants, of which the Chair seemingly has chosen one. Probably to make judging easier, to which as a Judge, I am thankful.
It also will allow us to use a similar yet differently focussed round in the future, if the time and circumstances fit.

Now, Answers:

This variant truly differentiates between the Hero (built using ECL) and the Villain (built as usual using CR), and requires both to start off near identical.
That means same Races (but no, you are not required to be humanoid, just use the same if they need racial HD), but different alternate feats/Subtypes of these are available, the same Class(es) for the first levels/until reaching ECL or CR 5 respectively, where the turning point is, and to build clearly different characters from there onward.



The only part where ECL does not apply as usual for the Hero is that racial LA-values are equalized with CR Increases, to make synching a bit easier (and to allow more various races to choose from). However, yes, this does prevent some races/Concepts from being used.
As did every single Competition so far, so pelase keep it cool. :)


I think building "Mirrors" with similar origins that then went very different ways is nothing that limits you at all, given you decide which ingredients to use from start to finish, it mainly says that the SECOND Character you build also has to do it similalry for 5 CR steps/Levels/you name it.

So look at it as 2 characters offering pretty great freedom of building, instead of one limited to it, might make it more fun!

And I will both judge this round and be here to answer questions. :)

[Falontani]

Yin and Yang


Villain and His Rival


Limitations


Must start off as the same Class, until reaching CR/ECL 5 should be VERY similar regarding their Choices, must have very detailed "points of divergence" fluff and mechanic wise.
Each Contestant must build a Villain and his Main Hero Rival, if the Villain is detailed in one CR Area, the Hero must be too.
Both must be single person, non Semi or totally infinite Beings and have a good, concise and INTERESTING reason for being Rivals.
Must be Good (Hero) and Evil (Villain)

I am not in on this, so I can be wrong, and if Graydeath answers contradictory to what I am about to say I will edit this post to reflect Graydeath's answer.

I believe that most PC races (not monster races) have a CR = their ECL, and that our "Monster" and the "Hero" should both be roughly the same until CR 5. For the "Hero" this would be ~ECL 5 in most cases, while for our "Monster" it would be ~CR 5. It seems that there is and emphasis on being more normal, and diverging.
Going on I believe that whenever we take a snapshot of our "monster" at X CR, we should also be taking a snapshot of the "hero" at an equal ECL. So it seems that the "Hero" is supposed to stay a somewhat normal PC character, much more akin to an IC character than a VC character.

My own thoughts on the matter aside, my questions are on the judging scale. Are our "Monster" and "Hero" being graded together, or separately? Will the "Hero" being somewhat standard bite us in the rear for our "Monster's" originality? Would a large difference in power, with the "Hero" being fairly weak or powerful and the "Monster" being the opposite cause you to grade our Power in a poor light?

I like this competition's theme, and I like this competition. I don't think this round is as difficult or bizarre as some recent rounds, but having a second character to build does pose some questions.

[GrayDeath]

@ Falontani:

Judging of both will be seperate, as if they were 2 builds, then the average of both builds will be your final Score.

The actual "Fit" of the hero to the Villain/ergo the "how well did you keep the Theme" will be part of both the Elegance and the Memorability Scores.

So yes, it is easily possible to win because of the Hero or the Villain, and to lose because of them as well.


Edit: Also, since its past 1 o clock where I live, and I need some sleep, I wont answer new questions until tomorrow some time after Noon.
I will also post my detailed judging criteria tomorrow or the day after, to avoid any misunderstandings.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

And to think I already used my Grappling Halflings...

No inspiration yet, but I like this round.

[JyP]

No inspiration yet, but I like this round.
I guess a good example could be Elan & Nale (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html), if they were already 5th-level as toddlers :smalltongue:

It is a bit tricky on the PC part : as the Villain has Memorable Villainy rating, it also means the PC has a Memorable Heroic rating ^^

[Thurbane]

OK, I think I've nailed down a concept. Now the hard part: fleshing out the mechanics, formatting the thing, and writing up interesting fluff/backstory etc.

I'm going to do my absolute best to get an entry in. Sep 5 should be doable, and as a bonus, I have a couple of annual leave days Aug 28 & 31. :smallsmile:

[GrayDeath]

Good to hear, your builds are almost always particularly well made. ;)

[Falontani]

Good to hear, your builds are almost always particularly well made. ;)

Don't worry, I'll balance out the well made stuff he makes, and throw some crap in a pot, throw various well known fun bits in, and then regurgitate it up for you.

[Thurbane]

Don't worry, I'll balance out the well made stuff he makes, and throw some crap in a pot, throw various well known fun bits in, and then regurgitate it up for you.

Don't sell yourself short, you've had plenty of great entries. :smallsmile:

[NontheistCleric]

Indeed. I consider you the one person I must beat, Falontani! You won't steal the gold from me this time!

(you probably will)

[Lionheart]

Interesting.

I'm a bit late to the party, so might not be able to get anything in in time, but I'll see what I can do.

[Thurbane]

Progress has been a lot slower than expected due to other commitments, but I'm hoping I can still have an entry ready for Sept 5th.

[GrayDeath]

Given that I wont be able to judge much/any next week, I for one would not ahve a problem with a week extension.

After all, if I cant start judging, you should still build ^^

[NontheistCleric]

Probably should have asked this earlier, but what exactly does the below phrase mean?


racial LA-values are equalized with CR Increases, to make synching a bit easier

I can't understand what is meant by equalizing LA with CR. The only thing that comes to mind is that the Hero's LA becomes equal to the villain's CR, but I feel like that can't possibly be what you intended.

[GrayDeath]

That means that, if you use a template that has different values of LA and CR (ergo most), you use the CR as LA.

Example: You want both your Hero and Villain to start of able to Fly, so give them the Winged Template.
Normally this template has a higher LA than CR modification.
Now it has the same one.


Clearer, I hope?

[Thurbane]

Given that I wont be able to judge much/any next week, I for one would not ahve a problem with a week extension.

After all, if I cant start judging, you should still build ^^

This would be appreciated - just found out an online gaming group I'm in is having an event most of this weekend, which is when I was going to finish up my entry.

[NontheistCleric]

That means that, if you use a template that has different values of LA and CR (ergo most), you use the CR as LA.

Example: You want both your Hero and Villain to start of able to Fly, so give them the Winged Template.
Normally this template has a higher LA than CR modification.
Now it has the same one.

Clearer, I hope?

Thank you, that is clearer! But what about characters without templates? For example, a non-templated bugbear normally has an LA of +1 but a CR of 2. Does that mean that under this system, its LA would become +2?

[GrayDeath]

No, because there is no such thing as LA X. Only LA +X, hence why LA+X and CR+X are streamlined to a common value, given they are in this instance both necessary.
Namely get equalized to the lower of the 2 (which unless I am very much mistaken is almost always CR, excluding things with increasing CR per HD).

[jdizzlean]

Deadline extended to 091220 same bat time, same bat channel.

[Falontani]

yayy, I can continue building!


.... ANNNND done! Glad to have actually completed and sent in a VC after such a long time. I've missed this.

[jdizzlean]

another competitor has asked for an extension.

have another week :)

final deadline

091920

[Falontani]

looking forward to seeing how this turns out; glad people are still working though!

[jdizzlean]

Cadwyn and Vayshor

https://i.imgur.com/ZAZm1ps.png
Cadwyn LG Human Crusader 7/Divine Crusader 1/Knight of the Raven 10/Crusader +2

https://i.imgur.com/e0NEKbQ.png
Vayshor CE Vampiric Human Crusader 5/Bard 1/Ur-Priest 10/Crusader +2

Cadwyn, and his younger brother Vayshor, were sons of Finnon, a renowned crusader of Heronieous. Cadwyn was strong, handsome and athletic – the embodiment of a true warrior. Vayshor, however, had always been palid and sickly lad, and the sort who much preferred to bury his head in a book than to quest or compete in tourneys. Still, he tried his best to impress his father, and live up to his brother, and so he also learned the ways of a crusader.

As they grew up, both had an eye for the same girl: Lady Gwenned. She would often come to watch Cadwyn at the jousts and melees, throwing him furtive glances. Vayshor, completely oblivious to this, would write (bad) poetry for Gwenned, and have it delivered to her from “a secret admirer”.

One day, while Cadwyn was away on a quest, Vayshor summoned up the nerve to profess his feelings to Gwenned. He found her on the keep wall, and admitted to her that he was the source of the anonymous poetry. Gwenned couldn’t help but burst out laughing – both at this strange little man, and his awful prose. In a moment of rage, Vayshor reacted before thinking, and shoved Gewnned, causing her to topple from the high walls and onto the stony ground below.

Wracked with guilt and fear, Vayshor fled the keep before anyone could discover his deed, and travelled to a nearby town. He proceeded to drown his sorrows in cheap grog at a tavern. As he grew more drunk, an ominous hooded figure overheard Vayshor’s tale of woe. The man took the lad aside, and revealed himself as a priest of the forbidden cult of Orcus. The priest offered Vayshor a chance to erase his mistake, and to become a mighty and potent warrior. Vayshor jumped at this in a drunken stupor. He followed the priest, blindfolded, to a secret lair of the cult, and there consumed some strange and corrupted meat. He immediately felt unwell, his consciousness quickly fading – the priest escorted him to the lower levels of the hideout, and suggested he sleep it off.

Next thing Vayshor knew, he “awoke” feeling very different. He rushed over to a dresser, and was shocked to see no reflection in the mirror…the priest had tricked him into becoming a vampire! In a fit of anger he went upstairs and confronted the cultist. Instead of denying anything, the man scoffed, saying that the lad should be thankful for the gift, and that Vayshor had earned a place within the cult of Orcus. With a surge of newfound strength, Vayshor battered the priest to death with his fists. If he had to suffer this curse, he would be no pawn of this demon cult, nor of any other man or god!

His rampage took him to the small outpost of a local bardic college, where he happened upon some musty books detailing ways to siphon the divine power of the gods, without paying them any homage. He sought out a practioner of these methods, and "persuaded" him to teach Vayshor the secrets of his ways.

Once Cadwyn learned what had happened to Gwenned, he searched high and low for his brother, but never caught up with him. He did gather enough information to suspect what his brother had become, leaving a trail of bodies and vampire spawn in his wake. Cadwyn vowed to bring his brother to justice and end his murderous spree. Cadwyn prayed to Heronieous for guidance, and sought out a group of vampire hunters known as the Knights of the Raven. He learned how to wield divine magic destructive to undead, and gained a raven companion (Kraukar) to assist him in his quest.

Cadwyn has destroyed many vampires and other undead and evil beings in his search for his brother, and will continue the hunt until his very dying breath if need be…





Array
4th
8th
12th
16th
20th
Final


Str
13
+1
-
-
-
-
14


Dex
12
-
-
-
-
-
12


Con
14
-
-
-
-
-
14


Int
10
-
-
-
-
-
10


Wis
8
-
-
-
-
-
8


Cha
15
-
+1
+1
+1
+1
19





CR/ECL
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skill Ranks
Feats
Class Features


1/1
Crusader 1
+1
+2
+0
+0
Balance 4, Concentration 4, Diplomacy 4, Knowledge (religion) 4, Ride 4
Extra Granted Maneuver, Power Attack
Furious counterstrike, steely resolve 5


2/2
Crusader 2
+2
+3
+0
+0
Balance 5, Concentration 5, Diplomacy 5, Knowledge (religion) 5, Ride 5
-
Indomitable soul


3/3
Crusader 3
+3
+3
+1
+1
Balance 6, Concentration 6, Diplomacy 6, Knowledge (religion) 6, Ride 6
Sudden Recovery
Zealous surge


4/4
Crusader 4
+4
+4
+1
+1
Balance 7, Concentration 7, Diplomacy 7, Knowledge (religion) 7, Ride 7
-
Steely resolve 10


5/5
Crusader 5
+5
+4
+1
+1
Balance 8, Concentration 8, Diplomacy 8, Knowledge (religion) 8, Ride 8
-
-


6/6
Crusader 6
+6
+5
+2
+2
Balance 9, Concentration 9, Diplomacy 9, Knowledge (religion) 9, Ride 9
Weapon Focus (longsword)
Smite 1/day


7/7
Crusader 7
+7
+5
+2
+2
Balance 10, Concentration 10, Diplomacy 10, Knowledge (religion) 10, Ride 10
-
-


8/8
Divine Crusader 1
+7
+7
+2
+4
Balance 10, Concentration 11, Diplomacy 11, Knowledge (religion) 11, Ride 10
-
Aura, spells (glory domain)


9/9
KotR 1
+8
+9
+2
+6
Balance 10, Concentration 11, Diplomacy 11, Knowledge (religion) 11, Ride 10, Spot 3
Vampire Hunter
Raven harrier (harry), speak with ravens


10/10
KotR 2
+9
+10
+2
+7
Balance 10, Concentration 11, Diplomacy 11, Knowledge (religion) 11, Ride 10, Spot 6
-
Smite undead 1/day


11/11
KotR 3
+10
+10
+2
+7
Balance 10, Concentration 11, Diplomacy 11, Knowledge (religion) 11, Ride 10, Spot 9
-
Turn undead, sun domain, raven harrier (baffle)


12/12
KotR 4
+11
+11
+3
+8
Balance 10, Concentration 11, Diplomacy 11, Knowledge (religion) 11, Ride 10, Spot 12
Sacred Vengeance
Light focus, smite undead 2/day


13/13
KotR 5
+12
+11
+3
+8
Balance 10, Concentration 11, Diplomacy 11, Knowledge (religion) 11, Ride 10, Spot 15
Enduring LifeB
Raven harrier (falter), Enduring Life


14/14
KotR 6
+13
+12
+3
+9
Balance 10, Concentration 12, Diplomacy 11, Knowledge (religion) 11, Ride 10, Spot 17
-
Smite undead 3/day


15/15
KotR 7
+14
+12
+4
+9
Balance 10, Concentration 13, Diplomacy 11, Knowledge (religion) 12, Ride 10, Spot 18
Martial Stance (Aura of Triumph)
Raven harrier (channel spell)


16/16
KotR 8
+15
+13
+4
+10
Balance 10, Concentration 14, Diplomacy 11, Knowledge (religion) 13, Ride 10, Spot 19
Lasting LifeB
Lasting Life, smite undead 4/day


17/17
KotR 9
+16
+13
+4
+10
Balance 10, Concentration 15, Diplomacy 11, Knowledge (religion) 14, Ride 10, Spot 20
-
Raven harrier (sight link)


18/18
KotR 10
+17
+14
+5
+11
Balance 10, Concentration 16, Diplomacy 11, Knowledge (religion) 15, Ride 10, Spot 21
Martial Study (Rallying Strike)
Burst of vitality, smite undead S/day


19/19
Crusader 8
+18
+15
+5
+11
Balance 10, Concentration 21, Diplomacy 11, Knowledge (religion) 15, Ride 10, Spot 21
-
Steely resolve 15


20/20
Crusader 9
+19
+15
+6
+12
Balance 10, Concentration 23, Diplomacy 14, Knowledge (religion) 15, Ride 10, Spot 21
-
-





CR
Initiator
Level
Maneuvers
Known
Stances
Known
Divine
Crusader
CL
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1
1th
5
1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2
2th
5
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3
3th
6
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4
4th
6
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5
5th
7
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6
6th
7
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7
7th
8
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8
7th
8
2
1st
0
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9
8th
8
2
1st
0
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10
8th
8
2
2nd
1
0
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11
9th
8
2
3rd
2
1
0
-
-
-
-
-
-


12
9th
8
2
4th
2
2
1
0
-
-
-
-
-


13
10th
8
2
5th
3
2
2
1
0
-
-
-
-


14
10th
8
2
6th
3
3
2
2
1
0
-
-
-


15
11th
8
3
7th
3
3
3
2
2
1
0
-
-


16
11th
8
3
8th
3
3
3
3
2
2
1
0
-


17
12th
8
3
9th
3
3
3
3
3
2
2
1
0


18
12th
9
3
10th
3
3
3
3
3
3
2
2
1


19
13th
9
4
10th
3
3
3
3
3
3
2
2
1


20
14th
10
4
10th
3
3
3
3
3
3
2
2
1



Maneuvers Known:
1 - Charging Minotaur, Crusader's Strike, Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack, Stone Bones
2 - Foehammer
3 - Revitalizing Strike
4 - Divine Surge
6 - Rallying Strike
7 - Castigating Strike

Stances Known:
1 - Martial Spirit, Stonefoot Stance
6 - Aura of Perfect Order, Aura of Triumph







Array
4th
Template
8th
12th
16th
Final


Str
12
-
+6
-
-
-
18


Dex
10
-
+4
-
-
-
14


Con
8
-
--
-
-
-
--


Int
14
-
+2
-
-
-
16


Wis
15
+1
+2
+1
+1
-
20


Cha
13
-
+4

-
+1
18





CR/ECL
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1/1
Crusader 1
+1
+2
+0
+0
Bluff 2, Concentration 4, Diplomacy 2, Intimidate 2, Knowledge (arcana) 2, Knowledge (religion) 4, Knowledge (the planes) 2, Listen 2, Perform (poetry) 2, Spellcraft 2, Spot 2, Use Magic Device 2
Able Learner, Iron Will
Furious counterstrike, steely resolve 5


2/2
Crusader 2
+2
+3
+0
+0
Bluff 2, Concentration 5, Diplomacy 5, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (arcana) 2, Knowledge (religion) 5, Knowledge (the planes) 2, Listen 2, Perform (poetry) 2, Spellcraft 2, Spot 2, Use Magic Device 2
-
Indomitable soul


3/3
Crusader 3
+3
+3
+1
+1
Bluff 3, Concentration 6, Diplomacy 5, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (arcana) 3, Knowledge (religion) 6, Knowledge (the planes) 3, Listen 2, Perform (poetry) 2, Spellcraft 3, Spot 3, Use Magic Device 2
Improved Toughness
Zealous surge


4/4
Crusader 4
+4
+4
+1
+1
Bluff 3, Concentration 7, Diplomacy 7, Intimidate 7, Knowledge (arcana) 3, Knowledge (religion) 7, Knowledge (the planes) 3, Listen 2, Perform (poetry) 2, Spellcraft 3, Spot 3, Use Magic Device 2
-
Steely resolve 10


5/5
Crusader 5
+5
+4
+1
+1
Bluff 4, Concentration 8, Diplomacy 7, Intimidate 7, Knowledge (arcana) 4, Knowledge (religion) 8, Knowledge (the planes) 4, Listen 3, Perform (poetry) 2, Spellcraft 4, Spot 3, Use Magic Device 2
-
-


7/13
Vampire Template
-
-
-
-
-
AlertnessB, Combat ReflexesB, DodgeB, Improved InitiativeB, Lightning ReflexesB
Alternate form, blood drain, children of the night, create spawn, dominate, DR 10/silver and magic, energy drain, gaseous form, resist cold 10, resist electricity 10, spider climb, turn resistance +4


8/14
Bard 1
+5
+4
+3
+3
Bluff 6, Concentration 8, Diplomacy 7, Intimidate 7, Knowledge (arcana) 5, Knowledge (religion) 8, Knowledge (the planes) 5, Listen 3, Perform (poetry) 4, Spellcraft 8, Spot 3, Use Magic Device 2
Spell Focus (evil)
Bardic music, bardic knowledge, countersong, fascinate, inspire awe, inspire courage +1, spellbreaker song, spells


9/15
Ur-Priest 1
+5
+4
+3
+5
Bluff 6, Concentration 10, Diplomacy 7, Intimidate 7, Knowledge (arcana) 5, Knowledge (religion) 8, Knowledge (the planes) 5, Listen 3, Perform (poetry) 4, Spellcraft 8, Spot 3, Use Magic Device 6
-
Spells


10/16
Ur-Priest 2
+6
+4
+3
+6
Bluff 6, Concentration 11, Diplomacy 7, Intimidate 7, Knowledge (arcana) 5, Knowledge (religion) 8, Knowledge (the planes) 5, Listen 3, Perform (poetry) 4, Spellcraft 8, Spot 3, Use Magic Device 11
-
Rebuke undead


11/17
Ur-Priest 3
+7
+5
+4
+6
Bluff 6, Concentration 12, Diplomacy 7, Intimidate 7, Knowledge (arcana) 5, Knowledge (religion) 8, Knowledge (the planes) 5, Listen 7, Perform (poetry) 4, Spellcraft 8, Spot 3, Use Magic Device 12
Improved Energy Drain
-


12/18
Ur-Priest 4
+8
+5
+4
+7
Bluff 6, Concentration 13, Diplomacy 7, Intimidate 7, Knowledge (arcana) 5, Knowledge (religion) 8, Knowledge (the planes) 5, Listen 11, Perform (poetry) 4, Spellcraft 8, Spot 3, Use Magic Device 13
-
Divine spell resistance 15


13/19
Ur-Priest 5
+8
+5
+4
+7
Bluff 7, Concentration 14, Diplomacy 7, Intimidate 7, Knowledge (arcana) 5, Knowledge (religion) 8, Knowledge (the planes) 5, Listen 14, Perform (poetry) 4, Spellcraft 8, Spot 3, Use Magic Device 14
-
-


14/20
Ur-Priest 6
+9
+6
+5
+8
Bluff 10, Concentration 15, Diplomacy 7, Intimidate 7, Knowledge (arcana) 5, Knowledge (religion) 8, Knowledge (the planes) 5, Listen 15, Perform (poetry) 4, Spellcraft 8, Spot 3, Use Magic Device 15
Spell Drain
Siphon spell power


15/21
Ur-Priest 7
+10
+6
+5
+8
Bluff 13, Concentration 16, Diplomacy 7, Intimidate 7, Knowledge (arcana) 5, Knowledge (religion) 8, Knowledge (the planes) 5, Listen 16, Perform (poetry) 4, Spellcraft 8, Spot 3, Use Magic Device 16
-
-


16/22
Ur-Priest 8
+11
+6
+5
+9
Bluff 16, Concentration 17, Diplomacy 7, Intimidate 7, Knowledge (arcana) 5, Knowledge (religion) 8, Knowledge (the planes) 5, Listen 17, Perform (poetry) 4, Spellcraft 8, Spot 3, Use Magic Device 17
-
Divine spell resistance 20


17/23
Ur-Priest 9
+11
+7
+6
+9
Bluff 18, Concentration 18, Diplomacy 7, Intimidate 7, Knowledge (arcana) 5, Knowledge (religion) 8, Knowledge (the planes) 5, Listen 18, Perform (poetry) 4, Spellcraft 8, Spot 4, Use Magic Device 18
Endure Sunlight
-


18/24
Ur-Priest 10
+12
+7
+6
+10
Bluff 19, Concentration 19, Diplomacy 7, Intimidate 7, Knowledge (arcana) 5, Knowledge (religion) 8, Knowledge (the planes) 5, Listen 19, Perform (poetry) 4, Spellcraft 8, Spot 6, Use Magic Device 19
-
Steal spell-like ability


19/25
Crusader 6
+13
+8
+7
+11
Bluff 20, Concentration 20, Diplomacy 7, Intimidate 7, Knowledge (arcana) 5, Knowledge (religion) 8, Knowledge (the planes) 5, Listen 20, Perform (poetry) 4, Spellcraft 8, Spot 10, Use Magic Device 20
-
Smite 1/day


20/26
Crusader 7
+14
+8
+7
+11
Bluff 21, Concentration 21, Diplomacy 7, Intimidate 10, Knowledge (arcana) 5, Knowledge (religion) 8, Knowledge (the planes) 5, Listen 21, Perform (poetry) 5, Spellcraft 8, Spot 10, Use Magic Device 21
Practiced Spellcaster (Ur-priest)
-





CR
Initiator
Level
Maneuvers
Known
Stances
Known
Bard
CL
0lvl
Ur-Priest
CL
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1
1th
5
1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2
2th
5
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3
3th
6
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4
4th
6
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5
5th
7
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7
5th
7
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8
5th
7
2
1st
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9
6th
7
2
1st
2
1st
4
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10
6th
7
2
1st
2
2nd
5
3
0
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11
7th
7
2
1st
2
3rd
5
3
1
0
-
-
-
-
-
-


12
7th
7
2
1st
2
4th
6
3
2
1
0
-
-
-
-
-


13
8th
7
2
1st
2
5th
6
3
3
2
1
0
-
-
-
-


14
8th
7
2
1st
2
6th
6
3
3
3
2
1
0
-
-
-


15
9th
7
2
1st
2
7th
6
4
3
3
3
2
1
0
-
-


16
9th
7
2
1st
2
8th
6
4
4
3
3
3
2
1
0
-


17
10th
7
2
1st
2
9th
6
5
4
4
4
4
3
2
1
0


18
10th
7
2
1st
2
10th
6
5
5
4
4
4
4
3
2
1


19
11th
7
2
1st
2
10th
6
5
5
4
4
4
4
3
2
1


20
12th
8
2
1st
2
14th
6
5
5
4
4
4
4
3
2
1




Maneuvers Known:
1 - Charging Minotaur, Crusader's Strike, Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack, Vanguard Strike
2 - Battle Leader's Charge
3 - Bonecrusher
6 - War Leader's Charge

Stances Known:
1 - Iron Guard's Glare, Leading the Charge

Bard Spells Known:
0 - Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Message, Read Magic



CD- Divine Crusader, Practiced Spellcaster, Spell Focus (Evil), Ur-Priest
CM – Spellbreaker Song,
DeM – Inspire Awe
EtCR - Knight of the Raven
Ghostwalk - Flesh of Orcus
LM - Endure Sunlight, Enduring Life, Improved Energy Drain, Improved Toughness, Lasting Life, Sacred Vengeance, Spell Drain, Vampire Hunter
RoD - Able Learner
ToB - Crusader, Extra Granted Maneuver, Martial Stance, Martial Study, Sudden Recovery; maneuvers, stances
Authors note: this is a somewhat "bare bones" entry - I'm afraid I simply ran out of time. I would normally have included "level snapshots", CR break downs, tactics etc., but it was all I could do to get this in before the extended deadline.
The basic summary is that this entry details two brothers: one a vampire, the other a vampire hunter. Both are divine gishes, of a sort. Cadwyn hits BAB +19 with level 9 spells, while Vayshor only hits BAB +14 (also with level 9 spells). Still, his Vampire template gives him plenty to compensate, not to mention his superior spellcasting. Cadwyn might be more optimally built with levels in Ruby Knight Vinidcator or similar; and Vayshor could probably have hit BAB +16 with PRCing out of Ur-Priest (Divine Power is always an option, though). Feats could also have been tweaked for more power or optimisation, but were mainly functional or thematic. Again, time constraints didn't let me explore these options as much as I might have wanted to.

[jdizzlean]

Muse and Downtrodden


Villain - Warforged #10-4-H: Adopted name: Downtrodden
Warforged Fighter 6/Totemist 2/Soul Eater 10



Stat

Base

Racial

Templates

Level Up

Total



Strength

15


+4

4, 12, 16

22



Dexterity

12


-2


10



Constitution

14

+2

+4


20



Intelligence

10




10



Wisdom

8

-2

-2


4



Charisma

13

-2

-2

8

10




Hero - Warforged #10-4-B: Adopted name: Muse
Warforged Fighter 4/Marshal 1/Expert 1/Reforged 3/Fortune’s Friend 1/Bard 1/Warrior Skald 2/Virtuoso 5/Seeker of the Song 2



Stat

Base

Racial

Templates

Level Up

Total



Strength

13




13



Dexterity

12




12



Constitution

14

+2



16



Intelligence

10




10



Wisdom

8

-2



6



Charisma

15

-2


4, 8, 12, 16, 20

18










CR

Class

Base Attack Bonus

Fort Save

Ref Save

Will Save

Skills

Feats

Class Features


ECL

Class

Base Attack Bonus

Fort Save

Ref Save

Will Save

Skills

Feats

Class Features



Most warforged were created in the forges of House Cannith. During the Last War, House Cannith had heavily regulated regimens of instruction for warforged. At their core was the understanding that a warforged was not entitled to choose for itself. It was created for one purpose: to be obedient to and fight for whomever bought it.

This simple concept required months of instruction. Although fighting came naturally enough, warforged had to be taught the use of weapons and tactics. They were instructed in how to recognize enemies, know allies, and improvise when left without commands. Most of this training took the form of elaborate war games in which warforged fought one another with real weapons while artificers and magewrights stood on hand to heal them. The victors received praise and saw the exultation on the faces of their human commanders, while the losers were berated.

At this point most warforged felt their first emotions. For most it was a single feeling: pride or shame, joy or jealousy. From then on, the warforged fought to preserve or quell that feeling through combat. It was better to feel nothing than to be jealous of others or shameful, and to maintain joy or pride, a warforged had to succeed constantly in battle. This simple view of the world served the warforged’s creators and buyers well.



1

Warforged Fighter

+1

+2

+0

+0

Craft: Armorsmithing +4, Knowledge (Arcana): +2

Adamantine Body

Battle Hardened


1

Warforged Fighter

+1

+2

+0

+0

Craft: Sculpting +4, Knowledge (Arcana): +2

Adamantine Body

Battle Hardened



2

Warforged Fighter

+2

+3

+0

+0

Craft: Armorsmithing +5 Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +.5

Jaws of Death(b)



2

Warforged Fighter

+2

+3

+0

+0

Craft: Sculpting +5, Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +.5

Overload Metabolism(b)




3

Fighter

+3

+3

+1

+1

Craft: Armorsmithing +6 Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +1

Shocking Fist



3

Fighter

+3

+3

+1

+1

Craft: Sculpting +6, Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +1

Shocking Fist




4

Warforged Fighter

+4

+4

+1

+1

Craft: Armorsmithing +7 Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +1.5


Body as Weapon


4

Warforged Fighter

+4

+4

+1

+1

Craft: Sculpting +7, Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +1.5


Body as Weapon



5

Fighter

+5

+4

+1

+1

Craft: Armorsmithing +8 Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +2




5

Marshal

+4

+6

+1

+3

Craft: Sculpting +8, Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +2.5, Diplomacy +1

Skill Focus: Diplomacy(b)

Minor Aura




Suddenly, the sky caught fire and deep, gray fogs gathered. Generalship, morale, strategy, and tactics—all was useless that day. The conflagration that enveloped the field was so bright that it blinded soldiers on guard duty over the horizon and half a continent away. Both sides died equally on the Day of Mourning.



6

Corrupted by the Abyss

Type: Changed to Aberration
Alignment: Changed to Chaotic Evil
AC: +4 Natural Armor
Damage: All Natural Weapons increase by 1 size.
Special Qualities: DR 5/Good, Resistance to Electricity 10, Darkvision 60 ft, Fast Healing 2, +4 to all special attack DCs
CR: +2


6

Expert

+4

+6

+1

+5

Craft: Sculpting +9, Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +4.5, Diplomacy +4

Power Attack




7


7

Reforged

+4

+6

+1

+7

Craft: Sculpting +9, Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +5.5, Diplomacy +5, Perform (Poetry) +1


Extroverted, Natural Healing



8

Fighter

+6

+5

+2

+2

Craft: Armorsmithing +8 Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +2, Spot +1

Alertness, Weapon Focus: Slam(b)



8

Reforged

+5

+6

+1

+8

Craft: Sculpting +9, Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +6.5, Diplomacy +6, Perform (Poetry) +2


Reforged Insight, Magical Healing



9

Totemist

+6

+7

+4

+2

Craft: Armorsmithing +8 Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +2, Spot +5


Wild Empathy, Meldshaping 1st


9

Reforged

+6

+7

+2

+8

Craft: Sculpting +9, Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +7.5, Diplomacy +7, Perform (Poetry) +3

-Adamantine Body, -Overload Metabolism, -Shocking Fist, +Unarmored Body(b), Cleave, Miser’s Fortune, Unbelievable Luck, Survivor’s Luck

Embrace Emotion, Final Reforging



10

Totemist

+7

+8

+5

+2

Craft: Armorsmithing +8 Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +2, Spot +9


Totem Chakra Bind, Meldshaping 2nd, Resist Electricity 20, DR 10/Good, Fast Healing 4


10

Fortune’s Friend

+6

+7

+4

+8

Craft: Sculpting +9, Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +7.5, Diplomacy +7, Perform (Poetry) +9


Easy Luck, More Luck than Skill, Extra Fortune



11

Soul Eater

+8

+10

+7

+4

Craft: Armorsmithing +8 Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +2, Spot +12, Spellcraft +1

Second Slam

Energy Drain 1


11

Bard

+6

+7

+6

+10

Craft: Sculpting +9, Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +7.5, Diplomacy +7, Perform (Poetry) +9, Concentration +6


Loresong, Healing Hymn, Spellbreaker Song, Inspire Competence, Song of the Heart, Inspire Courage +1




Sometimes in life, a sudden situation, a moment in time, alters your whole life, forever changes the road ahead.
One heard the sweetest of music, while the other tasted the sweetest of flavors. One walks the road in hand with life, while the other walks the road following life.



12

Soul Eater

+9

+11

+8

+5

Craft: Armorsmithing +8 Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +2, Spot +13, Spellcraft +4


Soul Strength


12

Warrior Skald

+7

+9

+8

+10

Craft: Sculpting +9, Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +7.5, Diplomacy +7, Perform (Poetry) +13, Concentration +6

Skill Focus: Perform (Poetry)

Bardic Music, Inspire Greatness



13

Soul Eater

+10

+11

+8

+5

Craft: Armorsmithing +8 Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +2, Spot +14, Spellcraft +7


Soul Blast


13

Warrior Skald

+8

+10

+9

+10

Craft: Sculpting +9, Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +7.5, Diplomacy +7, Perform (Poetry) +13, Concentration +6, Intimidate +4


Words of Rejuvenation



14

Soul Eater

+11

+12

+9

+6

Craft: Armorsmithing +8 Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +2, Spot +15, Spellcraft +10

Rapidstrike

Soul Enhancement, Immunity to Electricity, DR 10/Cold Iron and Good, Fast Healing 6


14

Virtuoso

+8

+10

+9

+12

Craft: Sculpting +9, Knowledge (Arcana): +3, Sense Motive +7.5, Diplomacy +7, Perform (Poetry) +17, Concentration +6, Intimidate +4


Bardic Music, Fascinate, Virtuoso Performance, Persuasive Song



15

Soul Eater

+12

+12

+9

+6

Craft: Armorsmithing +8 Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +2, Spot +16, Spellcraft +13


Soul Endurance


15

Virtuoso

+9

+10

+9

+13

Craft: Sculpting +9, Knowledge (Arcana): +5.5, Sense Motive +7.5, Diplomacy +7, Perform (Poetry) +18, Concentration +6, Intimidate +4

Lingering Song




16

Soul Eater

+13

+13

+10

+7

Craft: Armorsmithing +8 Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +2, Spot +17, Spellcraft +16


Soul Radiance


16

Virtuoso

+9

+11

+10

+13

Craft: Sculpting +9, Knowledge (Arcana): +8, Sense Motive +7.5, Diplomacy +7, Perform (Poetry) +19, Concentration +6, Intimidate +4


Sustaining Song



17

Soul Eater

+14

+13

+10

+7

Craft: Armorsmithing +8 Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +2, Spot +18, Spellcraft +18, Disguise +.5

Create Spectral Spawn

Energy Drain 2


17

Virtuoso

+10

+11

+10

+14

Craft: Sculpting +9, Knowledge (Arcana): +10.5, Sense Motive +7.5, Diplomacy +7, Perform (Poetry) +20, Concentration +6, Intimidate +4






One life is all we have and we live it as we believe in living it. But to sacrifice what you are and to live without belief, that is a fate more terrible than dying.
And so they accepted their fate, and let it guide them, one on a journey through sorrow untold, the other through joy and happiness sung to the heavens.



18

Soul Eater

+15

+14

+11

+8

Craft: Armorsmithing +8 Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +2, Spot +19, Spellcraft +19, Disguise +1, Jump +1


Soul Agility


18

Virtuoso

+10

+11

+10

+14

Craft: Sculpting +9, Knowledge (Arcana): +13, Sense Motive +7.5, Diplomacy +7, Perform (Poetry) +21, Concentration +6, Intimidate +4

Extra Music

Jarring Song, Inspire Courage +2



19

Soul Eater

+16

+14

+11

+8

Craft: Armorsmithing +8 Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +2, Spot +20, Spellcraft +20, Disguise +2, Jump +1


Soul Slave


19

Seeker of the Song

+10

+11

+10

+16

Craft: Sculpting +9, Knowledge (Arcana): +16, Sense Motive +7.5, Diplomacy +7, Perform (Poetry) +22, Concentration +6, Intimidate +4


Rapture of the Song (+2 AC), Seeker Music, Burning Melody, Burning Melody Refrain



20

Soul Eater

+17

+15

+12

+9

Craft: Armorsmithing +8 Knowledge (Arcana): +2, Sense Motive +2, Spot +21, Spellcraft +21, Disguise +3, Jump +1

Improved Rapidstrike

Soul Power, Fast Healing 9


20

Seeker of the Song

+11

+11

+10

+17

Craft: Sculpting +9, Knowledge (Arcana): +19, Sense Motive +7.5, Diplomacy +7, Perform (Poetry) +23, Concentration +6, Intimidate +4


Combine Songs, Song of Unmaking







Report: Creation Forge batch #10-4 creation successful. Warforged 10-4 A through H heading to training room 7. Warforged unit designated #10-4-B shows immediate leadership, gathering remainder of Batch #10-4 and guiding them to the “classroom”. As expected units designated #10-4 F, G, and H are staggering behind due to less than optimal power output to Creation Forge 4. Raise power level by 3% for Batch#10-5. End of Report.
…
Report: Warforged Batch#10-4 post combat scenario #1: Evaluation. As expected of the training of Bernard d’Deneith, batch #10-4 performed astoundingly, receiving an 8 in overall performance. Unit #10-4-B continues to astound with amazing leadership skills, suggested enrollment into Officer training. Unit #10-4-C performance deemed tactical, suggested enrollment into Arcane Training. Unit #10-4-H performance evaluation below average, suggested enrollment into Mandatory Weapons Training. Remainder of Batch#10-4 performed above average. End of Report.
…
Report: Warforged Batch #10-4 final evaluation.
Unit 10-4-A: Passed, House Cannith Elite Warrior Corp
Unit 10-4-B: Passed, Sold to Breland as Unit Commander
Unit 10-4-C: Passed, Sold to Aundair Mage Corp
Unit 10-4-D: Passed, Sold to Breland as Elite Soldier
Unit 10-4-E: Passed, Sold to Thrane as Commando
Unit 10-4-F: Passed, Sold to Cyre as Elite Soldier
Unit 10-4-G: Passed, Sold to Breland as Elite Soldier
Unit 10-4-H: Passed, Sold to Cyre as Foot Soldier
End of Report.

Warforged Batch #10-4 was a warforged batch like any other. They were each given elite training from great teachers tailored to each of them specifically. They trained day and night for a scant few months. It is all they knew. Each of the warforged from Batch #10-4 sold for great sums of gold, except 10-4-H, which only managed to sell as a common foot soldier. It was at this point that 10-4-H discovered the dark nature of it’s heart. It had learned of jealousy when it failed it’s first combat simulation. On this day it learned hatred and resentment. It wasn’t it’s fault. Why couldn’t it at least sell as an Elite Foot Soldier. It's all because it was created last of it’s batch. And so it seethed.


#10-4-B lead a company of warforged through several hit and run battles that proved exceedingly fruitful. It did well with it’s company, and suffered very little damage. Breland being at the forefront of warforged privilege granted #10-4-B a host of unique privileges including a salary, which other warforged did not get. It loved to learn, so would spend egregious amounts on tutors and instruction in a wide assortment of different things. One such thing turned into a passion. Poetry. One’s voice didn’t matter as much when saying the lines of poetry, the art was in how one said it, and how it was written. #10-4-B spent so much gold on his poetry tutor that she would often accompany him to the warforged camps, and even sleep in #10-4-B’s tent. She enjoyed her tenure, and gave #10-4-B his first adopted, and the longest one to stick, Muse. One day during the war, deep into Cyrian territory the poetry tutor got sick. Muse requested leave of absence to escort her back to Breland. The Cyrian forces were entrenched, and their supplies deep, so several days to the Lightning Rail and back could be allowed, and leave was permitted. Nearly unheard of for all of warforged, but leave was taken.

#10-4-H fought on the front lines. Fighting back hordes of karnathi zombies, before turning around and sprinting three days to the Thranian front to bear a tower shield above a cyrian wandslinger to protect him from a hail of arrows, after which being hitched to a wagon leaden with dragonshard resupply over to the trenches warding Great Cyre from the might of Breland. All of this was done within the span of a week. Never allowed to rest. Never given a chance. His final order was to leap from the trenches in a suicidal charge to throw a Dragonshard infused with a magmin at the Breland dragonshard resupply. If successful the Breland dragonshard supply would have blown up in an enormous fireball. Failure meant death. Success meant death. Finally #10-4-H would get a break, a long one. One that probably would never end. This is when #10-4-H decided upon a name. A name thought to be carried to the grave. Downtrodden.


Muse reached The Lightning Rail, paid for a pair of tickets to the absolute shock of many, and then led his poet to her seat. He then did what few warforged dreamed of doing, and sat. Relaxed into the seat. He listened to the people aboard the train, to the music of life. It was a good few hours to Starilaskur. An enjoyable ride. “I have never asked, but what is your name?” It's the last thing that Muse asked before an emergency Sivis broadcast was made, “Due to unforeseen events this train is being recalled to the City of Passage. We apologize for the inconvenience this may prove to any aboard.” Muse immediately went into critical thinking, 25 words exactly. A Sending, is it just this train, or all of them? Why now? Little did Muse know, he was about to become unemployed.

Downtrodden charged. Hand aflame from the chaotic Magmin. The warding spells keeping the arrows off of him, and the heat of the burning gem from searing him. He charged. Only another 320 ft. Twenty-four seconds before he could finally rest. Eighteen. The Brelish soldiers are screaming, even the warforged. Something is wrong. Twelve seconds. Pain. Arrow has struck me. Six seconds, the wards have vanished, too early. He threw. WOOMF. Black out. … … … … … … Restoration. I’ve been repaired. I look around. Dead gray mists everywhere. I look down. A Cannith homunculus. Automated repairs, so I’ve not been reclaimed by Cyrian forces. But what happened?



Muse survived the Day of Mourning. His company did not. Probably. No one knows. There is a wall of fog a mile from where the company was. No one that enters returns. The Treaty of Thronehold was signed, and now Muse is a free warforged. He spent his time learning to live from his poet. Freely she taught him what it means to be alive. To be sentient. To be free. He learned that sculpting isn’t only for golems and explosives. He learned to create pottery and vases. He learned to love and to live. He learned poetry correctly. He would spend numerous nights writing and reciting poetry. Days turned to weeks, and weeks to months. Months gave way to years. His tutor and lover had finally conceded that he was the better poet. During the days he would go out sporting a tailored suit, a cloak, and a very fine wide brimmed hat along with the sword that was his keepsake from his days as a commander. He would recite his poems to hundreds of people in Mithril Tower. He would attend plays performed by House Phiarlan. He understood how fortunate he was, and so he basked in life.

Downtrodden had changed. He could see the soul energy around him. He could mold it and morph it. He learned to see. He learned of his power. People tried to take charge of Downtrodden, thinking him weak, and easy to control. He killed them. What did it matter in this world of dead gray mist. Another life expunged. Another soul to be consumed. He learned what it meant to be hungry. And decided he would never be hungry again. And so he ate.



“Muse, dear, why again are we going to Vathirond?”
“I yearn to see. Do not fret, I have several accompanying us to the wall.”
“Okay, I trust you. Besides what would even dare to attempt to hurt my Muse.”
“Exactly.”
…
“Bernard d’Deneith, it has been a long time!” Muse
“10-4-B! I assume you go by a new name now.” Bernard
“Muse, thank you, and Jane d’Cannith, how have you been?” Muse
“Fantastic, it was a lovely journey, may I ask who this fine lady is?” Jane
“Denise d’Ghallanda at your service.” Denise
“A mercenary, an artificer, a commander, and a cook, do you expect danger?” Bernard
“Of course not, but it makes sense to be prepared. It isThe Mournlands, even if just outside.” Muse
“True enough.” Jane
…
They walked to the edge of The Mournlands. Each felt unease. Each discarded the feeling. Until it came from within. This creature looked like a warforged, but it had electricity cackling up and down it’s arms. The creature cast it’s gaze upon the four and grinned, “‘Captain’, creator, and teacher together. You have cursed me, and now you will die.”
Three of them looked at this creature in both terror and recognition. Two of them drew blades. One of them pulled a wand. It charged. It struck. Visible only to its eyes, Denise’s soul evaporated like boiled water. To Muse all that was seen was a hard crunch, and then the life of his love disappeared.
…
A handful of minutes later Muse ran, carrying the lifeless body of his love.

No one followed him.



He wept.

Yea they actually have combat abilities! Who would have thought.
Downtrodden is fairly simple, fighting with natural weapons. Since his reawakening he has had countless fields of battle, several cities, and a pair of Cannith Manufacturies to loot. To upgrade. He doesn’t need equipment at all. His slams count as cold iron, evil, adamantine, and bludgeoning per normal DR rules. If he can find a Battlefist then he has a potent attack. It can be argued either way as to whether Energy Drain is a standard action, or just whenever he successfully hits with a natural weapon. If it is a standard action then his go to strategy is to target weaker enemies and drain their soulstuff. If it is just whenever he lands a natural attack, then he has a slew of natural attacks. Four slam attacks and 4 claw attacks. We can easily drop 9 HP/round due to our fast healing to deal an additional 9d4 points of electric damage on any attack.

Finally we have a huge number of control as a minionmancer through the creation of both Spectral Spawn (no limit) and Soul Slave (no limit), each of which creating a creature that can go on to create even more spawn. Downtrodden isn’t the wisest and will likely eventually be drawn into a trap that he won’t be able to survive, but he is completely fine with fleeing. He’s been taught numerous tactics, and he isn’t dumb.

As for Muse; Muse is… hard to rate for me. I don’t often create characters that are mostly noncombatants. Muse has been trained in combat, and is a capable fighter compared to most NPCs, but his strengths lie in Bardic Music. Inspire Courage +2 plus Song of the Heart for another +1, and Inspirational Boost for an additional +2 is +5 to hit and damage for his team. Since he has Combine Songs he can sing that and something like Inspire Greatness on round one. He then immediately stops using those songs to pick up Jarring Song and Burning Melody. Granting the buffs of Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness for a minute while simultaneously interrupting magic, adding his Cha mod to the damage of his allies when they charge or flank, and burning things. Exactly how Muse fights other than those will be mostly up to the equipment he has. He has magic, martial training, and music, allowing him to adapt fairly well to a scenario. I wish I could have added Words of Creation, but those stat requirements are steep, and I didn’t want to stray too far from my original idea, however if equipment is factored in and he has the stats for it by the time he’s level 9, he can swap one of the luck feats for it to boost his Inspire Courage up to +10 to hit/damage.


Uhhh crap, I did go resource diving again didn’t I. Uh oh.
Let’s see… from the top!
Warforged Fighter, Warforged, Adamantine Body, Jaws of Death, Reforged, Unarmored Body, and Second Slam are all from Races of Eberron; several of these things are reprints, and sometimes printed elsewhere, but they are all the same as in Races of Eberron
Overload Metabolism and Shocking Fist are both from Player’s Guide to Eberron
Marshal is from Miniature’s Handbook
Corrupted by the Abyss is from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits
Totemist is from Magic of Incarnum
Luck feats and class are all from Complete Scoundrel
Soul Eater is from Book of Vile Darkness
Rapidstrike and Improved is from Draconimonicon
Create Spectral Spawn is from… well uhh http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070425a (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070425a) the PDF that you can download here. The Spectral Spawn that it creates is from Dragons of Faerun.
Warrior Skald is from Races of Faerun
Virtuoso and Lingering Song is from Complete Adventurer
Seeker of the Song is from Complete Arcane
Loresong: Dungeonscape
Healing Hymn: Complete Champion
Spellbreaker Song: Complete Mage
Song of the Heart, Extra Music: Eberron Campaign Setting

I hope I got everything?
OH Expert is from DMG

[jdizzlean]

and that is all, and now the fun part :)

[Falontani]

and that is all, and now the fun part :)

agreed! Can't wait to see how this goes.

[NontheistCleric]

In the end, I didn't have the time to condense my ideas into an entry. I think I'll redirect all that mental energy into judging—this looks like an easy round for a first try at it.

[GrayDeath]

Awww....only 2?

Too bad not more people managed to enter.

WIlls tart judging (and likely finisha s well) Saturday at the latest.

[GrayDeath]

Quick update: didnt find the time during the weekend, will do it the coming week.

Sorry.

[GrayDeath]

Update. Family problems have come up.

Willö be travelling to my aprents within the next 2 days, dont know how long it will take.

Judging is paused until I am back.

Which can allow a potewntial second Judge to judge while you wait?

I hope so at elast.

Sorry for the delay.

[Falontani]

I think it was Thurnane that said it, but judging is the best way to have unexpected things come up. Take your time, and know that someone else did volunteer to judge, but even if they don't we aren't in a huge rush. I just hope it's done before Halloween so we can have that Halloween round.

[GrayDeath]

Well, that could have gone better.



I am back home, and will start judging once Ive had a little bit or R&R.

[Thurbane]

I think it was Thurnane that said it, but judging is the best way to have unexpected things come up. Take your time, and know that someone else did volunteer to judge, but even if they don't we aren't in a huge rush. I just hope it's done before Halloween so we can have that Halloween round.

Halloween round would be awesome.


Well, that could have gone better.



I am back home, and will start judging once Ive had a little bit or R&R.

All good, do what you need to do and take your time. :smallsmile:

[H_H_F_F]

I'm down* to judge. Will probably take up to four days.

*Edit: Down, not done. Jesus, H. Get your head in the game.

[GrayDeath]

At it atm.

Will be posted either this or next Evening GMT.

[GrayDeath]

And here we go, again sorry for the Delay, after all it were only 2 entries this time, but things kept happening so that I could only really start today.






Cadwyn:


Originality: Knight of the Raven isnt too often seen, the Rest is classic Fighting Dogoder 101.

2.25


Elegance: Simple Mix of Classes, all legal, but: Divine Crusader only gives you a domain and Domain Spell Slots.
Continuing it with Raven Knight does not give you different Casting, only the Domain (and its own added one), while you list more (sadly not even clearly labeled if those are supposed to be spells known or per day...since he only has 1 of each Level per day and 2 known, this costs you 1.5 pts.

3.5



Power: Good Combat Abilities, especially against Undead. With fitting maneuvers chosen.
The Deduction for your not really there Spells aside from 2 Domains is in Elegance, so no further malus here.
Hes relatively flexible, but could use better Stats for both damage and his spell DC`s. Good but not great 3.75.



Memorability: A nice but sadly very short Backstory (Time restraints, I understand). The future Interactions of the 2, more or less THE point of this comp, is only there in the vaguest sense of the word.
Sadly, this leaves you at a low 2.0

Total Cadwyn: 11.50



Vayshor:



Originality: Well, a Vampire Knight. Not terribly original, but then you put in Ur-Priest (in itself not original, but more of a Power Staple, but havent seen that with Vampires often).

Take an average 3.0


Elegance: Base Class, Template Prestige class. All legal, all neat, no Dips. Take 4.75.


Power: Now we`re talking. Lots of immunities, good stats,, maneuvers and Cleric Spells. Aside from some lesser Vampire weaknesses and his HP, he is a powerhouse. 4.5.


Memorability: The same Problem Cadwyn ahs, if a little less stark since he at least has more flesh on his backstory. I am really sad about that, as the 2 are more or less what I would have built if I had partaken instead of judged, and they deserve a better and more complete Story.
2.25

Vayshor Total : 13.75


Combined Scores:

Originality: 2.265

Elegance: 4.125

Power: 4.125

Memorability: 2.125

Combined Total: 12.64









Muse:

Originality: Ohoo, a Warforged with Expert, Marshall and Bard+Bard PRC Levels? Never seen a combo exactly like that, take excellent 4.5

Elegance: Which hurts you here. 3 Dips, various Class Jumps, not pretty at the least, even if fully legal as far as I could find. Also, the combined Build Table, while a nice idea, made some things really hard to parse. 3.0.


Power: Adequate. Going into many different directions leaves Muse very adaptable, but he lacks any kind of real Punch. Granted, he usually doesnt NEED it, but this is the Combat Part. And in that he has weaknesses. Above average still:3.25.


Memorability: A Poet Warforged. Who loves Music and his teacher. Very interesting and quite memorable Concept. Take very good 4.0


Total Muse: 14.75



Downtrodden.


Originality: OK, almost as original as his brother/Sister. A Soul Eater Warforged? Very innovative concept, even if using their natural slam attacks is not. 4.0


Elegance: 2 Base Classes and a prestige class. Logical Build progression nothing illegal, no dips past the one necessary. However some GM`s might balk at using Warforged as Basis for Soul Eater, as they are for most cases only “mostly” living. Small deduction, take still very Good 4.00


Power: That part wasnt quite as clear cut, as Downtrodden is not qquite your usual highly specialized Combat Machine (no pun intended).. Overall good, if with some weaknesses inherent to CC “Monsters” that could have been avoided/Circumvented. 4.00


Memorability: Not remotely as good as Muse. One needs to have known this Mosnter from “before” for it to be ore than “that freaky warforged” Mosnter of the Week. However not horrible either, take 2.5


Total Downtrodden: 14.5


Combined Scores:

Originality: 4.25

Elegance:3.5

Power: 3.625

memorability: 3.25

Combined Total: 14.625.

[H_H_F_F]

I believe I can get it done within 24 hours, if you'd like to wait.

[Thurbane]

Thanks for the judging GrayDeath.


I believe I can get it done within 24 hours, if you'd like to wait.

I'd be happy to wait for second judging, speaking for myself.

[Falontani]

I'm good with waiting as well.

[H_H_F_F]

This is my first time engaging with this competition, so it is possible that I may have made some unconventional choices. If anything seems unfair to anyone, they’re welcome to send a dispute. I found both submissions to be interesting and engaging. Here is my judging:

Before I begin, I wish to stress that I completely understand that this was rushed. Real life gets in the way, that’s perfectly valid. However, I’m still judging the entry as submitted - I can’t give you credit for what you would have done if you had the time. I hope you understand. Now, judgment:

Originality:

So, I’m not seeing anything too groundbreaking here. These are human divine gishes, and that chassis is served best by either divine crusader or ur-priest. I’m new to the contest, so I don’t know how prevalent vampires have been here so far - but it’s the first thing that jumped to my mind when I saw this was based on CR and not ECL, so I’m not giving you any points there. I would have given you a small buff for the bard level on Vayshor, but it wasn’t supported by anything else and was clearly just there to qualify for Ur-priest.

A few of the feats and choices here are non-conventional, but your main redeeming quality here is Knight of the Raven, and that’s mainly because this is the first I’ve heard of it. If there are any groundbreaking tactics with your maneuvers and Cadwyn’s spells, I missed them - but you’ll get a partial refund if you point them out. For now, you’re not doing too hot in this department.

Score: 1.9 points.

Power:

As you yourself pointed out, Ruby knight vindicator would have been the “Obvious” choice for Cadwyn, power-wise, and a prc to advance casting is sorely lacking for Vayshor.

However.

Both these characters are powerful and durable casters, with access to some pretty high level maneuvers (moreso for Cadwyn). Vayshor, obviously, is supremely powerful - Use of magic device opens up a lot of possibilities, Urpriest casting is far superior to Cadwyn’s sun and glory domains, and Vampirism is definitely useful enough to justify the lost levels. You got punished hard for those choices in originality, but I have to credit you here. This category is also called “competence” in this contest, and I’d be very hard pressed to say these characters are not competent at what they do.

Score: 4.3 points.

Elegance:

Cadwyn’s build seems very natural. I could complain about the lack of initiator progression for a build based off of crusader, but I get where you’re coming from here.

As for Vayshor: I’m deducting points here for a bard level that gets completely ignored aside for being a skill and will-save factory for Ur-priest. I considered deducting points for his class structure not fitting a gish, but I already addressed that in the competence section.
Aside from that, both builds flow together very well. Besides, I know I gave you trouble earlier for taking 10 levels of Ur-priest, but you gotta love a 10/10 prestige class on both brothers. I didn’t see anything that made me go “Oh, that’s beautiful”, but I have very little to complain about aside from what I’ve mentioned.

You listed all your sources, you qualify for everything, no numerical mistakes as far as I can tell.

However, I do feel I have to penalise you here for a very lean entry. I think I have a pretty high tolerance here, and I can live without having snapshots, but not having anything explaining what these characters can do is a bit too much.

Score: 3.75 points.

Memorable Villany/Heroism:

I’m not going to be able to give you a very good score in this category. I hate that, because I feel like you could have gotten around 4.5 from me here if you had the time. I really like the idea these character sheets evoke. Brothers gone their separate ways, a vampire and a vampire hunter. The idea of it is just really cool. Knight of the raven is an excellent choice in this regard, as is the divine crusader of hextor with a glory domain. When this is the hero, an Urpriest villain works well thematically, as well.

However, the execution is just botched. Vayshor was a way cooler villain when all I had was his level summary. Cadwyn was a way cooler hero when I assumed he had a personality, or a journey. As it stands, the builds seem mechanically uninspired and straightforward, and the fluff is uncompelling. Your villain just fell into being evil. It seems like something out of a children's book, and not in a good way. The fluff felt like it was there solely to go through the class breakdown, and nothing more.
You still get credit for the idea, but not nearly as much as I’d like to give you. Just enough to mostly make up for the lack of anything beyond it. You also get a little bit of credit for taking sacred vengeance and the like on Cadwyn.

Score: 2.8 points.

Total score: 12.65 points

This feels like this could have been a truly memorable entry if you had more time. As it is, it’s still pretty good. Well done.

Originality:

Interesting entry for sure. Choosing to go warforged for pretty high-cha builds is bold, and I can’t say anything here is very “Been there, done that.” You get some credit for the absolute mess that is Muse - I think you know we’ll talk about that in elegance, but a reforged warrior skald seeker of the song with a bunch of luck feats and an expert level based off a fighter has to be considered original, right? Anyway, you did good.

Score: 4 points.


Power:

This one is a bit complicated. There are some serious power differences between your villain and your hero. Downtrodden is pretty good, he can do the things he does efficiently. He’s a capable soul eater, his feats are built efficiently around his chassis, he’s doing good.

Muse? the general idea seems to be bardic music, but he isn’t very good at that, is he? He doesn’t have dragonfire inspiration or words of creation, and I may be missing something huge, but he should be getting only +1 from “inspirational boost”. So, a +4 to hit and damage for the party, as your starting action at level 20. It’s a nice gesture, but it’s hardly powerful. Aside from that, Muse is a bad fighter and a bad caster. Jarring song is situationally very good, but since his MO is doing it 2nd round, he could get annihilated. I’m honestly not sure what he’s good for. I like muse a lot, but I can’t find anything positive to say about him in this regard. If he was your only build in this entry, you’d get up to 1.2 points from me.

Fortunately (hah!) Downtrodden is here to save the day.

Score: 2.25 points.

Elegance:

This is where things go bad for you. I’m sorry if I seem harsh here, feel free to dispute anything that seems unfair.

Let’s start with Downtrodden. He’s pretty mechanically cohesive. Unlike muse, he’s also “pretty” - Fighter, totemist, soul eater. However, I don’t fully get corrupted by the abyss. At 2 CR, it’s pretty expensive. Is it all about getting your save DCs? If so, it comes up very early in the build, way before it’s useful. I imagine that’s for fluff purposes, but since you keep going with fighter afterwards, you could have pushed it more. I don’t know. To make things much worse, as far as I can tell corrupted by the abyss has been updated in BoVD, with the corrupted creature template - which would cost you more CR.
It occurs to me you may have taken it to qualify for soul eater? If I’m not mistaken, you already did. Warforged are living constructs, which means they’re living nonhumanoids. I like the flavour, but this isn’t great.

EDIT: I made a mistake regarding the template source, score adjusted.

Muse. Where to begin? First off, his build is the opposite of elegance, at first glance. Nothing leads to anything else. He’s a fighter and a warrior skald that takes 5 levels in a row of a half BAB class, a bardic music expert that gets bardic music at level 11. You invest a gigantic amount in your luck feats, and I’m really not clear on why. While we’re talking feats, when are you ever going to use power attack, cleave, or your bonus skill focus: diplomacy?

You also use materials from two different campaign settings, which is questionable, and your formatting is very difficult. I had to copy the table to a word document displayed sideways, and copy everything into a table I could read.

In conclusion, I feel that I have to give you the minimal score here. I don’t like doing that, but I don’t see any way around it. Downtrodden alone, formatted correctly, would have gotten a not-great score, and it just isn’t enough to make up for the rest of it.

Score: 1.3 points.

Memorable Villany/Heroism:

I’m glad this one comes after elegance, because here I can be generous.

I like the choice to make the villain so much more sympathetic than the hero, without having the hero be arrogant, mean, or condescending. Muse does seem like a good person, but he’s so happy-go-lucky that I feel like punching him in the face. Downtrodden, on the other side - I get Downtrodden. I felt his plot after the day of mourning was too rushed, but I can fill in the blanks.

These 2 feel truly Yin and Yang to me. They are opposites, but they compliment each other - and there’s definitely a seed of good within your villain, and a seed of evil within your hero. They were both shaped by their circumstances of birth and life, and nothing says “Started out the same” like two robots from the same batch.

That complementary nature carries on to the crunchy aspects of both of them. Muse is reforged, happy go (literally) lucky, playing music and having a wonderful time. Downtrodden is corrupted, focused, shaped solely by war from the very beginning.

I’m slightly disappointed by them diverging so early (both in fluff and in table), and I’m not sure that Muse is particularly memorable by his own - but Downtrodden is a nightmare unto himself, and Muse is indeed his perfect alter-ego.

Score: 4.6 points

Total score: 12.15 points

This is a mess, but it's a fun one. I'm glad it exists.

[H_H_F_F]

I'm sorry if I made any grammatical or spelling errors, or other silly mistakes. I usually let anything I write in English rest for a while before reviewing it for such things, but I wanted to get this done ASAP so the show could go on.

[GrayDeath]

Only 2 parts from me, as experienced Judge, that might profit from clarification.

1.: Elegance. A Score of 1 in elegance is reserved for "The worst ****heap imaginable, including some illegalities, that only does not directly disqualify for the comp by grace of not running against the comps specific rules." Hence you might want to rework that part, unlöess of course you think it fitting. Not trying to alter your judgement, just to provide some context.

2.: Since this is the first competition where we judge 2 characters in relationship to each other, please post the detailed Scores for each Character, then sum it up (check my judging for reference), in case you agree with a Dispute and adjust one character but not the other, or have very strongly differenting scores between characters, this will greatly improve clarity.

Otherwise I have nothing to say (and I shouldnt, since judging is each Judges own prerogative^^).

[Thurbane]

Thank you for your judging H_H_F_F.

No disputes from me, for either judge.

[H_H_F_F]

Only 2 parts from me, as experienced Judge, that might profit from clarification.

1.: Elegance. A Score of 1 in elegance is reserved for "The worst ****heap imaginable, including some illegalities, that only does not directly disqualify for the comp by grace of not running against the comps specific rules." Hence you might want to rework that part, unlöess of course you think it fitting. Not trying to alter your judgement, just to provide some context.

2.: Since this is the first competition where we judge 2 characters in relationship to each other, please post the detailed Scores for each Character, then sum it up (check my judging for reference), in case you agree with a Dispute and adjust one character but not the other, or have very strongly differenting scores between characters, this will greatly improve clarity.

Otherwise I have nothing to say (and I shouldnt, since judging is each Judges own prerogative^^).

Thank you for your pointers, Graydeath.

My elegance score was simply the case of a series of separate deductions, each of which I find to be justified in its own right. I'll consider changing my view on that for the future, and giving something like 1.1 or 1.25 to anything that isn't completely atrocious. For now, unless I see a dispute, the score stands.

As for your second pointer - I find that hard to do, since many of the strengths and weaknesses of the submissions stem, in my view, from the relation of one character to another. I'd give Cadwyn a slightly lower score for competence if his nemesis wasn't undead, and the section of memorable villainy and heroism would be hugely different - it's not just about the characters themselves being memorable, it's their relationship, too. I feel that the sum is larger than its parts in this case.

If the chair believes this point crucial, I could rework my judgement - but that would take time, and in my view would make it worse, not better.

Either way, I appreciate your helpfulness and your opinion.

[AvatarVecna]

I'll try and get my own judgement up sometime in the next several hours.

[jdizzlean]

I'm on mobile only for a few days. once I get home, I'll post any disputes

[AvatarVecna]

Originality: 2.75

+3.00: Starting Position
-0.50: Human
-0.25: Crusader
+0.50: Divine Crusader
+0.50: Knight Of The Raven
-1.00: Boring Feats
+1.25: Interesting Feats
-0.25: Skill Selection
+0.00: Maneuver Choices
-0.50: General Impression

Knight Of The Raven is an interesting choice, even if as a 9/10 caster it's only unpopular because groupthink, but still. Divine Crusader isn't seen very often, but mostly because it's fairly bad. Some feats were interesting finds, others were pretty bog-standard and boring (although it's not really your fault you had to take Weapon Focus), and the skills look like the standard loadout of any basic knight character. A crusader/cleric gish isn't particularly original, but the particular way in which it was explored to better tie in with the theme sacrificed power for flavor, and I can appreciate that enough to make the general "crusader gish" approach less penalizing. The fact that what little backstory Cadwyn personally has is very barebones "LG knight hunting undead because they killed my girl"...well, it's not exactly surprising.

Elegance: 4.25

+3.00: Starting Position
+0.50: One Base Class
-0.50: 1-level Dip
+0.75: 10-level PrC finished
+0.25: Qualifies For Everything
+0.25: Lists All Sources


With the sole exception of the Divine Crusader 1 dip, this is an elegant build. Everything flows together fine, sources are listed, prereqs are met. It's maybe not how a crusader/cleric gish should be built, but that's more of a power concern than an elegance once, and the choices are made in service of the story, so can't fault you for that here. I can't find anywhere where Cadwyn indicated having any spells aside from glory/sun domain, as one of the other judges suggested, and nothing in the KotR or Divine Crusader entries indicates that it shouldn't work, so no penalty for that either.

Competence/Power: 3.50

+3.00: Starting Position
-0.25: IL 14 at 20th level
+0.50: CL 10 at 20th level
-0.25: It's Divine Crusader casting tho
+0.25: Extra Domain tho
+0.25: CL 10 Gate

You knew this was coming, and really I'm not sure why anything else would be expected. My middle-ground expectation for power is approximately a straightforward T3 class. A Bard 20 or Crusader 20 or whatever. Gishes in general can punch up a bit for being tough while also having casting. You gish and it just comes out as slightly worse than a full initiator and way worse than a real caster. You still get points for the casting because you do get 9th lvl spells, and when you get CL 10 Gate at lvl 17, that's a serious punch up, but beyond that there's nothing in the Glory or Sun domains really worth writing home about. Your build is simply trying to do too many things to be really good at any one of them. Cadwyn is worth taking along over a decent fighter, but a great fighter will be focused enough to outclass him, not to mention a great Crusader.

Memorability: 2.25

+3.00: Starting Position
+0.50: Rivals from level 1
+0.50: Rivalry upgrades significantly at level 5
-1.50: Barebones Backstory/Motivation
-0.50: Boring
+0.25: Provided Picture

I really appreciate how you're fulfilling the goal of the contest - both in setting them up from level 1 as true rivals to each other, and how their builds mirror each other in a number of ways even after the point where they have to be basically identical. Both of them know each other from level 1 and have built-in conflict and rivalry from the get-go, which gets ramped up when the girl gets pushed. Buuuuuut the backstory is still fairly short and functional. There's an idea of a rivalry that could blossom, but the lack of expansion via level snapshots means there's not any progression to the rivalry beyond the original "you killed my girl now I hunt you". This hurts Cadwyn more than Vayshor - there's not much there for either of them, but what's there for Cadwyn is "boring bog-standard LG knight hunting the undead because a vampire killed his girl". Cadwyn's build and rivalry are interesting and original, but his backstory very much isn't, and that makes him a lot less memorable.

Originality: 2.50

+3.00: Starting Position
-0.25: Vampire Human Villain
-0.25: Crusader
+0.25: Bard
-0.25: Ur-Priest
-0.75: Boring Feats
+0.75: Interesting Feats
+0.25: Skill Choices
+0.00: Maneuver Choices
-0.25: General Impression


A vampire is standard villain fare, as is "evil priest". Some of your skill choices are interesting, but beyond that there's not a lot that's mechanically surprising. The backstory isn't particularly great either, but there's at least more there than there was for Cadwyn (and that backstory's slightly more interesting). The mechanics are what really make this villain less interesting though.

Elegance: 3.75

+3.00: Starting Position
+0.50: One Base Class
-1.00: 1-level Dip
+0.75: 10-level PrC Finished
+0.25: Qualifies for everything
+0.25: Lists All Sources

Once again, you've dotted the i's and crossed the t's and the build is fully functional as intended, with only the dip hurting you. The reason this one hurts Vayshor more than Cadwyn's hurt him is, the bard dip here is painfully obviously only there to make sure that Vayshor qualifies for Ur-Priest, and a bard dip conflicts with the fluff in the backstory of Vayshor's terrible poetry. So you get double-penalized for the dip here.

Competence/Power: 4.25

+3.00: Starting Position
-0.25: IL 12 at lvl 20
+0.25: Vampire
+0.75: CL 14 at lvl 20, but CL 10 at lvl 19
+0.50: CL 10/14 lvl 9 spells

Once again, probably not a huge surprise here. Vampire immunities and stat boosts are great, but without vampire lord you still have a ton of extra weaknesses that can be exploited - very fitting for a villain, but still problematic for your power level. Your initiating is slightly worse overall, but not significantly. While your casting technically has better CL right at the end, your score there isn't better for it because your CL is pretty comparable to Cadwyn's throughout the build - if Practiced Spellcaster was taken closer to the start of Ur-Priest, I'd be fine bumping it up another 0.5 even, but since it's only really doing better right at the tail-end, it doesn't get extra points for that.

No, what you're getting extra points for is having access to the whole cleric list instead of just 2 domains. A cleric 20 build would be a lock for a much higher power score, and a proper crusader/cleric gish with high IL/CL alike would probably get a solid 5, but a 4.25 is respectable given how middling your IL/CL are most of the time.

Memorability: 3.25

+3.00: Starting Position
+0.50: Rivals from level 1
+0.50: Rivalry upgrades significantly at level 5
-1.50: Barebones Backstory/Motivation
+0.50: Interesting backstory
+0.25: Provided Picture

As with Cadwyn, I appreciate how they're rivals from level 1 and how their builds even mirror each other past the point where it's necessary. But also as with Cadwyn, the short length of the backstory and the lack of building on future interactions via snapshots and the like aren't helping you out very much at all. I wish there was more here, because the lack of content is really the only thing holding you back from being near-perfect in this category, and you don't get points for what you could've submitted if you'd had more time.

Originality: 5.00

+3.00: Starting Position
+0.50: Warforged
-0.50: Fighter
+0.00: Marshal
+1.00: Expert
+0.25: Reforged
+0.50: Fortune's Friend
-0.50: Bard
+0.00: Warrior Skald
+0.25: Virtuoso
+0.25: Seeker Of The Song
-1.50: Boring Feats
+1.50: Interesting Feats
+0.50: Skill Choices

By the Nine is this a weird build. Lots of unexpected stuff going on here, and all in service of the character in question. Playing around with bardic music, and luck feats, and weird skills? A noncombatant entry? Easy 5, even if some of the feat choices are uninspiring.

Elegance: 1.00

+3.00: Starting Position
-2.00: (4) 1-level Dips
-0.50: (2) 2-level Dips
-0.25: Never specifies Aura choice
-0.25: Never specifies spells known
-0.25: Multiple Campaign-specific Materials
+0.25: Qualifies for everything
+0.25: Lists All Sources
-0.25: AD HOC good lord that table is a mess

...and here's where it hurts you. You're qualifying for everything and showing your work, but also that chaotic build is a hot mess.

Competence/Power: 3.00

+3.00: Starting Position
+0.25: CL 6 at lvl 20
-0.25: It's bard casting
+0.00: Bardic Music as Bard 10 at lvl 20
+0.25: Tons of extra music options tho
-0.25: BAB +11 at lvl 20

At low levels, Muse is just a middling fighter with a marshal dip. At mid-level, he's no longer good enough at fighting to be a real combatant, but also barely has any casting or music to make up for it. That pattern continues to level 20, where casting and music are lagging so far behind that they don't make up for the lack of personal combat capability. You said it yourself, Muse is a noncombatant. Despite that, this build is dripping in options and utility, enough that his noncombat stuff is still worth a great deal to the right party.

Memorability: 2.00

+3.00: Starting Position
-2.00: They aren't rivals
-0.50: Noncombatant, difficult to work with party
+1.50: Deep and interesting backstory

The builds aren't as similar as I'd like for the first 5 levels as they should be, but honestly even if the chair thinks you're following the rules there, there's still the bigger issue. Muse and Downtrodden aren't rivals. They aren't ex-comrades. They're barely even brothers. Their stories intersect at precisely two points: the point at which they were created, and the point at which Downtrodden consumes Muse's love. The latter moment has to be past 11th level, and at least is implied to be pretty close to the lvl 20 point. That's not a rivalry with a true villain, that's a chance encounter that happens to be very slightly less-than-pure-chance encounter to two party members.

If you asked Cadwyn why he's an adventurer, or who that vampire priest is that attacked your adventuring group, he could rail on about his evil vampire brother, who was always jealous of him and ruined his life. If you asked Vayshor why he's an adventurer, or who that crazed knight is that keeps attacking our adventuring party, he could tell you about his spoiled crusader brother who got everything he ever wanted and blames Vayshor for the one thing denied him. If you asked Muse or Downtrodden about the other, prior to the one confrontation between them written out, they'd both reply the same: "Who? Oh, him? He's probably dead."

That's not a rivalry. It's an interesting story if made into a book from the villain's perspective, but the characters aren't going to be really aware of the journey that lead Downtrodden to be so different from Muse. It's not gonna hit the way it should if played out in-game unless Downtrodden kept a hate-diary for them to read afterwards, and even that's not great.

Originality: 5.00

+3.00: Starting Position
+0.50: Warforged
+0.25: Corrupted by the Abyss
-0.50: Fighter
+0.50: Totemist
+0.75: Soul Eater
-0.75: Boring Feats
+1.50: Interesting Feats
+0.00: Skill Choices

Once more, your build is inspired. Solid 5, despite a few uninteresting feat choices.

Elegance: 3.75

+3.00: Starting Position
-0.25: 2-level Dip
+0.75: 10-level PrC finished
+0.25: Qualified for everything
+0.25: Lists all sources
-0.25: AD HOC Presentation

There's two things hurting you here: the dip, and the presentation. That table is a hot mess and I'd really rather you split it up into one table per build.

Competence/Power: 3.75

+3.00: Starting Position
+1.25: Totemist/Soul Eater shenanigans
-0.50: CL/IL/ML 0 at lvl 20

This build isn't a caster or initiator or manifester. They don't have truenaming or bardic music or item crafting. They just have totemist natural attack shenanigans, and Soul Eater that can massively capitalize on that. It's a build with one trick, but it's a very good trick.

Memorability: 2.25

+3.00: Starting Position
-2.00: They aren't rivals
+1.50: Deep and interesting backstory

Downtrodden fits better into a typical campaign than Muse does, being a combatant and all, and the backstory is still phenomenal, but they're still not rivals and that's a sticking point for me.

[Falontani]

[Pikachu Face]
Guys! We have three judges in a VC! This is astounding!
Hmmm my hm goes to AvatarVecna. I loved Graydeath's judging, and H_H_F_F is judging for the first time, but man, while I may not agree (but won't say what I don't agree with until after everything's said and done) that is some of the best judging I've seen in a while imo. Very fair and has the details I always am hoping for. (I've judged in the past, and did nowhere near as good as others here have, so I mean no disrespect to anyone.)

Anyways, thank you to all three of our judges!

[Thurbane]

Thanks to all three of our judges - and again, no disputes here.

[jdizzlean]

a single dispute from Muse/Downtrodden



This is my first time engaging with this competition, so it is possible that I may have made some unconventional choices. If anything seems unfair to anyone, they’re welcome to send a dispute. I found both submissions to be interesting and engaging.

First off, before I say anything else, I would like to say thank you for judging. I really did not want to post any disputes, however, there is a single mistake that I have to point out, whether it change my score or not. I will dissect the following portion simply because it makes it easier to organize my thoughts without seeming ranty. I am not trying to disparage anything that you have said specifically, and I hope I don't come across as rude today.

Here is my judging:
...

Elegance:

This is where things go bad for you. I’m sorry if I seem harsh here, feel free to dispute anything that seems unfair.

Let’s start with Downtrodden. He’s pretty mechanically cohesive. Unlike muse, he’s also “pretty” - Fighter, totemist, soul eater. However, I don’t fully get corrupted by the abyss. At 2 CR, it’s pretty expensive. Is it all about getting your save DCs? If so, it comes up very early in the build, way before it’s useful. I imagine that’s for fluff purposes, but since you keep going with fighter afterwards, you could have pushed it more.

I personally prefer the Corrupted template from Book of Vile Darkness. It seems much more appropriate for being morphed by The Day of Mourning. The reasoning for my taking the template at this precise point is
a) Since it is being applied when Downtrodden is level 5, allowing for the template to grant only a CR +2 instead of a bit later where it would be CR +3
b) More importantly for why I apply it earlier, is because for the story, it needs to happen at the same time that Muse is beginning to undergo his enlightenment. That war isn't everything. It has to happen during the Day of Mourning, and Muse needs the Day of Mourning to become free. I honestly wish I could have done it earlier but doing it earlier would have really made the split off seem too quick.
c) The Corrupted by the Abyss template's main thing that it grants is the ability for Downtrodden to heal naturally. The template is on theme, the stats are nice, and increasing the natural weapons are the main reason to take the template, but going from not being able to heal naturally at all to fast healing is an extreme jump for someone that would have slowly taken damage and not had enough resources to heal himself. There would have been no real way that Downtrodden would have survived in The Mournlands for as long as he does without the ability to naturally heal.


I don’t know. To make things much worse, as far as I can tell corrupted by the abyss has been updated in BoVD, with the corrupted creature template - which would cost you more CR.


This template first appeared in Book of Vile Darkness. This version has been updated to v.3.5 rules and adapted for the environment of the Abyss.
Again I would have preferred BoVD's version of the Corrupted template. Mainly because of the vile damage. The vile damage would have been great thematically, everything he touches becomes corrupted by the same energies that have corrupted him. The shock value that would have added would really have proven to himself that he can never be equal. He can never rise above what he is now, a monster. I would have put it in the story, that he used a homunculus to help himself up, and his mere touch began to destroy the homunculus. It would have really been a nail in the coffin.



...
Muse. Where to begin? First off, his build is the opposite of elegance, at first glance. Nothing leads to anything else. He’s a fighter and a warrior skald that takes 5 levels in a row of a half BAB class, a bardic music expert that gets bardic music at level 11. You invest a gigantic amount in your luck feats, and I’m really not clear on why. While we’re talking feats, when are you ever going to use power attack, cleave, or your bonus skill focus: diplomacy?

You are correct. This one is slightly different, and for a reason. Inexperienced players tend to go with the flow, and don't plan out very much ahead. A player playing Muse following the trail of the story would really have been stumped on how to continue. He had a character ready for a War campaign, and suddenly war wasn't the focus anymore, everything was roleplay. The player adapts, moving the direction of the character one way, before the DM brings back adventuring, so he moves the character the other way again. The classes are selected by the story more than the classes molding the story. I won't ask for more points in elegance for Muse. He is meant to be inelegant. A foil to Downtrodden in every way. Downtrodden molds his story by the selections he makes, while Muse mods his selections based on the story that he is following.


You also use materials from two different campaign settings, which is questionable, and your formatting is very difficult. I had to copy the table to a word document displayed sideways, and copy everything into a table I could read.


I am really sorry about the table format! I thought it would look better than it turned out looking. I thought it would be a cute idea that helped you see the characters side by side, and it was an absolute pain working with the table in google docs. When it was posted and I saw that it looked as it did I was slightly crestfallen.

Anyways, I am fine with no changes to my score, I just really had to point out the BVD part. That was the only part I wanted to point out, the rest was just me rambling as usual.

[jdizzlean]

can someone smarter than me throw a table up, after this dispute is resolved, we'll roll out the halloween round!

[AvatarVecna]

Build
Cadwyn/Vayshor
Muse/Downtrodden


Player
?
?


AvatarVecna
13.125
12.875


GrayDeath
12.64
14.625


H_H_F_F
12.65
12.15


Total
38.415
39.65

[H_H_F_F]

Response to the dispute:

Well, colour me embarrassed. I got the templates confused. That's on me, and 100% justifies a dispute - you don't come off "ranty" at all. This template is Downtrodden's main vice when it comes to elegance, so disputes towards it are very relevant.

I also now better understand the reason you made the choice, and the reason you did when you did. However, I still think you're mistaken on two accounts:

1. It is my belief that templates which change CR based on HD keep changing CR as HD changes. It is how I've always played, and I've always believed it was pretty much RAW. Has this been addressed in this competition before? Am I wrong in thinking CR, DR, etc should change if HD keep piling up, in templates which are dependent on HD?

2. While I now understand what you were trying to do, and applaud it, I do not believe you get the fast healing you think you're getting. The relevant section says:

Fast Healing (Ex): While in the Abyss, a creature corrupted
by the Abyss heals damage equal to one-half its character level
(maximum 10 points) per round. If the base creature already
has fast healing, use the better value.
As far as I'm aware (and I keep saying that, because I feel the need to be extra-carefull after my previous error) the Mournland doesn't count as part of the Abyss.

Regarding muse: I enjoyed the contrast, and even gave you credit for it in memorable heroism/villainy, but I still had to punish you in elegance, of course.

You get a refund for the subtraction I made for 3e material. I will also take this opportunity to take Graydeath's advice regarding minimal score. Your elegance score is now 1.3, and will change again if either point 1 or point 2 are refuted - with point 1 carrying the heavier weight.

I hope everyone can forgive me for dragging this on.

[AvatarVecna]

Response to the dispute:

Well, colour me embarrassed. I got the templates confused. That's on me, and 100% justifies a dispute - you don't come off "ranty" at all. This template is Downtrodden's main vice when it comes to elegance, so disputes towards it are very relevant.

I also now better understand the reason you made the choice, and the reason you did when you did. However, I still think you're mistaken on two accounts:

1. It is my belief that templates which change CR based on HD keep changing CR as HD changes. It is how I've always played, and I've always believed it was pretty much RAW. Has this been addressed in this competition before? Am I wrong in thinking CR, DR, etc should change if HD keep piling up, in templates which are dependent on HD?

2. While I now understand what you were trying to do, and applaud it, I do not believe you get the fast healing you think you're getting. The relevant section says:

As far as I'm aware (and I keep saying that, because I feel the need to be extra-carefull after my previous error) the Mournland doesn't count as part of the Abyss.

Regarding muse: I enjoyed the contrast, and even gave you credit for it in memorable heroism/villainy, but I still had to punish you in elegance, of course.

You get a refund for the subtraction I made for 3e material. I will also take this opportunity to take Graydeath's advice regarding minimal score. Your elegance score is now 1.3, and will change again if either point 1 or point 2 are refuted - with point 1 carrying the heavier weight.

I hope everyone can forgive me for dragging this on.

Table's been updated to reflect the change in score.

[H_H_F_F]

Table's been updated to reflect the change in score.

Quick and efficient. Thank you, AvatarVecna.

[jdizzlean]

Build
Cadwyn/Vayshor
Muse/Downtrodden


Player
Thurbane
Falontani


AvatarVecna
13.125
12.875


GrayDeath
12.64
14.625


H_H_F_F
12.65
12.15


Total
38.415
39.65





ok gang, i'm out the door to take the kiddo to the zoo, either later tonight, or more likely tomorrow sometime i'll get the new round up

thanks to all the judges and competitors, and for the first time in my memory, HM goes to a judge! AV

[Thurbane]

Congrats Falontani! :smallsmile:

And thank you so much to the judges - was a real buzz to have three judges! :smallcool:

[GrayDeath]

Yeah, now if we jsut could have 3 Judges in a round with normal participation, we (Judges or Palyers) would be truly lucky.

[Falontani]

Thanks to all participants!

H_H_F_F:
I have always played that you continue to gain the increasing benefits from the template, but the cr is an increase to the base creature's cr. I've done than in past competitions and not been penalized.

AvatarVecna, like I said earlier, there is one thing I disagree with in your judging, but it may be biased (probably). I think muse and downtrodden are much more rivals than you were seeming to say. I built them not with the impression of muse bring in the party, but being the eventual quest giver. He knows their backstory. And he wouldn't let the party go without him. For the competition we were supposed to create two characters using the elite array, which to me implies unique npc when friendly.

[AvatarVecna]

Thanks to all participants!

H_H_F_F:
I have always played that you continue to gain the increasing benefits from the template, but the cr is an increase to the base creature's cr. I've done than in past competitions and not been penalized.

AvatarVecna, like I said earlier, there is one thing I disagree with in your judging, but it may be biased (probably). I think muse and downtrodden are much more rivals than you were seeming to say. I built them not with the impression of muse bring in the party, but being the eventual quest giver. He knows their backstory. And he wouldn't let the party go without him. For the competition we were supposed to create two characters using the elite array, which to me implies unique npc when friendly.

I like the story of Muse and Downtrodden a great deal - stories exploring artifically-created life are of great interest to me, and I think it was very well-written for the snapshots we get of their lives. But the problem of their rivalry isn't a matter of whether Muse is in an adventuring party himself or not, it's wrapped up in the fundamental idea of what it means to be a rival. I'm of the opinion that a hero-villain rivalry requires more than just ironic duality that each of them is distantly aware - there needs to be antagonism, competition. They need to have real strong feelings about each other, they need to take actions at the expense of the other.

And they don't. At all.

Not except for a point at the very beginning (when Downtrodden is very generally jealous of all his brothers and just happens to be a little more jealous of Muse for being the best of them) and a point at the very end (when Downtrodden kills Muse's love).

At best, you could maybe say they're distant rivals for the first 5 levels, in that they're competing against the concept of the other's place in the heirarchy, but Downtrodden's thoughts aren't exactly consumed by Muse outperforming him, and he never does anything to cause Muse problems until what is implied to be something like 16th level. And beyond the fact that lvl 16 is just too late in the game for a rivalry to start, if it's supposed to be a central point of characterization for the two of them, that has level 6 to 16 being in that "who? oh him, he's probably dead" relationship. Particularly with the villain comp, I try to see how well a villain could fit into a campaign - a neat one-off encounter at some point in the campaign isn't a villain, it's a mini-boss with a gimmick and a neat backstory. A lot of entries to villain comp have this problem, where they're only really viable capital-V "VILLAINS" at the particular level the builder was trying to highlight. And Muse/Downtrodden, despite far and away being the most interesting, don't really work as part of a long-term anything.

Levels 1-5, Muse and Downtrodden were sold to different countries, and if it's intended that they happen to constantly be fighting on opposite sides of the same battle, that doesn't seem clear to we the audience or Muse/Downtrodden themselves, and that's kinda the point. Even if they are fighting each other at that point, it's not a directed rivalry in any sense, it's not personal. And even if they were aware of each other, it wouldn't matter: Muse has decision-making power, but has no motivation to go out of his way to screw over Downtrodden, and even if we pretend that Downtrodden's thoughts are consumed with hatred for Muse and that DT was fully aware he was fighting Muse's company on the battlefield (which again, isn't explicitly true in the first place), Downtrodden has no say in what he does in battles, he's just endlessly following orders until eventually he gets one that kills him. For the first five levels, even if it's theoretically possible for them to be antagonistic towards each other (and it very well might not even be possible), there's no reason it would occur without twisting the story away from the excellent writing that's already there. And then from level 6 to at least lvl 11, and more likely lvl 16ish, neither of them has any reason to believe the other is alive, and they most definitely aren't encountering each other.

If I was trying to play a game where the adventuring party were getting wrapped up in this story, then at best they'd be getting hired by muse sometime after DT consumed Muse's love. That's late-game. That's super-late-game. And most games just don't make it to that part of play.

Comparatively, Cadwyn and Vayshor are actively competing with each other, in close proximity, right from level 1, and the personal level of that antagonism ramps up in both directions starting at level 5. One of them is always pursuing the other with bad intentions. I could work that into a game no matter what level it is. The story is barebones, but it's functional in setting up an ongoing rivalry between these two brothers, and while it's not as emotionally interesting as Muse/Downtrodden, it's also what the contest was supposed to be about in the first place.

Just my two cents about it.

[Falontani]

I like the story of Muse and Downtrodden a great deal - stories exploring artifically-created life are of great interest to me, and I think it was very well-written for the snapshots we get of their lives. But the problem of their rivalry isn't a matter of whether Muse is in an adventuring party himself or not, it's wrapped up in the fundamental idea of what it means to be a rival. I'm of the opinion that a hero-villain rivalry requires more than just ironic duality that each of them is distantly aware - there needs to be antagonism, competition. They need to have real strong feelings about each other, they need to take actions at the expense of the other.

And they don't. At all.

Not except for a point at the very beginning (when Downtrodden is very generally jealous of all his brothers and just happens to be a little more jealous of Muse for being the best of them) and a point at the very end (when Downtrodden kills Muse's love).

At best, you could maybe say they're distant rivals for the first 5 levels, in that they're competing against the concept of the other's place in the heirarchy, but Downtrodden's thoughts aren't exactly consumed by Muse outperforming him, and he never does anything to cause Muse problems until what is implied to be something like 16th level. And beyond the fact that lvl 16 is just too late in the game for a rivalry to start, if it's supposed to be a central point of characterization for the two of them, that has level 6 to 16 being in that "who? oh him, he's probably dead" relationship. Particularly with the villain comp, I try to see how well a villain could fit into a campaign - a neat one-off encounter at some point in the campaign isn't a villain, it's a mini-boss with a gimmick and a neat backstory. A lot of entries to villain comp have this problem, where they're only really viable capital-V "VILLAINS" at the particular level the builder was trying to highlight. And Muse/Downtrodden, despite far and away being the most interesting, don't really work as part of a long-term anything.

Levels 1-5, Muse and Downtrodden were sold to different countries, and if it's intended that they happen to constantly be fighting on opposite sides of the same battle, that doesn't seem clear to we the audience or Muse/Downtrodden themselves, and that's kinda the point. Even if they are fighting each other at that point, it's not a directed rivalry in any sense, it's not personal. And even if they were aware of each other, it wouldn't matter: Muse has decision-making power, but has no motivation to go out of his way to screw over Downtrodden, and even if we pretend that Downtrodden's thoughts are consumed with hatred for Muse and that DT was fully aware he was fighting Muse's company on the battlefield (which again, isn't explicitly true in the first place), Downtrodden has no say in what he does in battles, he's just endlessly following orders until eventually he gets one that kills him. For the first five levels, even if it's theoretically possible for them to be antagonistic towards each other (and it very well might not even be possible), there's no reason it would occur without twisting the story away from the excellent writing that's already there. And then from level 6 to at least lvl 11, and more likely lvl 16ish, neither of them has any reason to believe the other is alive, and they most definitely aren't encountering each other.

If I was trying to play a game where the adventuring party were getting wrapped up in this story, then at best they'd be getting hired by muse sometime after DT consumed Muse's love. That's late-game. That's super-late-game. And most games just don't make it to that part of play.

Comparatively, Cadwyn and Vayshor are actively competing with each other, in close proximity, right from level 1, and the personal level of that antagonism ramps up in both directions starting at level 5. One of them is always pursuing the other with bad intentions. I could work that into a game no matter what level it is. The story is barebones, but it's functional in setting up an ongoing rivalry between these two brothers, and while it's not as emotionally interesting as Muse/Downtrodden, it's also what the contest was supposed to be about in the first place.

Just my two cents about it.

I understand your point of view better now. I may not entirely agree with your point of view on the matter, but then I did create the two characters and it is sometimes difficult to separate the events of what is perceived to have happened and the events that actually happen (the events that I thought up, and the events written down). I also think that the final score is definitely the most subjective to each individual. I don't think I've ever specifically disputed that category before. Thank you again for excellent judging ^_^

[H_H_F_F]

H_H_F_F:
I have always played that you continue to gain the increasing benefits from the template, but the cr is an increase to the base creature's cr. I've done than in past competitions and not been penalized.

I... Don't get that. I assumed you were keeping only the benefits granted at the appropriate HD. Getting be efits but not CR doesn't seem reasonable.

CR isn't like LA - it is a direct estimation of power, not a price you pay for power (except in this competition of course).

If we have 2 absolutely identical characters who were corrupted by the abyss, with both of them getting exactly the same benefits from the template, they should be the same CR. Suggesting a party is ready to deal with one of them at level, say, eleven, while they'll only be ready to deal with the other at 13, even though they're both mechanically the same character doesn't make any sense.

Anyway, I hope you weren't in any way offended by my judgement, Falontani. I'm sorry if I seemed harsh or unfair. I stand by what I said - your entry is a mess, but I'm glad it exists. Congratulations on your victory!

Thurbane, I enjoyed your work as well. If you ever find yourself creating a more complete story for these men, I'll be glad to read it.

[Falontani]

Anyway, I hope you weren't in any way offended by my judgement, Falontani. I'm sorry if I seemed harsh or unfair. I stand by what I said - your entry is a mess, but I'm glad it exists. Congratulations on your victory!


Not offended at all! I thought the table would look nicer, and I know Muse was an absolute s*** show.

[jdizzlean]

new round is up

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?621069-Villainous-Competition-XXXVIII-Spooks-and-Spectres&p=24769217