Races for a tanking Crusader?

[Delta_tea]

I need suggestions... I'm planning out a cohort tanking Crusader (sword & board). He'll start at level 4 once I pick up Leadership at level 6. Basically, I'm not so much worried about tripping, more about holding the line and being able to soak tons of damage while the party does their murder hobo thing. I don't want him to over-shadow people, he's a sponge that sprays melee healing, not a hammer. I'd like to get the most racial bang for the buck. So natural armor is nice, +Con, fast healing, DR, etc.

Possible combinations I'm thinking about:

Water Orc (no level adjustment): +4 str, +2 con, -2 int, -2 wis, -2 charisma, darkvision, +other stuff
+
Proto-Creature (no level adjustment): +4 str, +2 con, -2 int, -4 char, darkvision, +3 nat. armor, rage ability

As cool as Rage sounds, apparently it can't be used with maneuvers so I'd need to do a Will save every attack.

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Water Orc (no level adjustment): +4 str, +2 con, -2 int, -2 wis, -2 charisma, darkvision, +other stuff
+
Feral Template (1 LA): +4 str, -2 dex, +2 con, -4 int, +2 wis, +2 fast heal, darkvision, pounce, +6 nat. armor, +other stuff

Down side is starting at level 3, but get +2 fast healing so never need out of combat topping off. Pounce should be handy for getting intimidate attention from the bad guys.

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Warforged / Incarnate Construct (-2 LA): +2 con, -2 wiz, -2 cha, lots of immunities, healing does half as much
+
Feral Template (1 LA): +4 str, -2 dex, +2 con, -4 int, +2 wis, +2 fast heal, darkvision, pounce, +6 nat. armor, +other stuff
+
Mineral Warrior (1 LA): +2 str, +4 con, -2 int, -2 wis, -2 cha, darkvision, 8 DR, +other stuff

No level hit, start at level 4, fast healing gets cut in half, but that's still 1 hp per 6 seconds. 8 DR will be meaningless later, but for now its handy. The -6 int starts to hurt for skills. And basically charisma will end up a dump stat like wisdom.

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I'm open to other ideas as well. Fast healing seems to be the most handy so we don't have to spend spell slots healing between fights.

[ChaosStar]

Edit: I'm an idiot. I thought Sword & Board was a splatbook. Nevermind.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Incarnate Construct loses all the Warforged immunities, since it turns him into a Humanoid which disqualifies him from being a Living Construct. Furthermore, Feral is an inherited template that can't be applied to a construct, Incarnate Construct is an acquired template that can only be applied after inherited templates, and Mineral Warrior also can't be applied to constructs. When that -2 LA from Incarnate Construct gets applied it can't bring his LA below 0, so it gets wasted and he still starts with a +2 LA.

I'd say go with a Water Orc, Dragonborn of Bahamut, Mineral Warrior in that order, the +1 LA can be already bought off. Water Orc only loses their darkvision and light sensitivity, and the general water race traits but you keep the swim speed, on becoming Dragonborn. Both are acquired templates, gaining Mineral Warrior afterward means Dragonborn doesn't cause you to lose anything it grants. If you go with the wings aspect of Dragonborn you don't have a fly speed when you gain Mineral Warrior so it can't be lost when that's gained. This means you'll have a swim speed, a burrow speed, and at 6th level a fly speed. However, the Heart aspect is better since you can take Entangling Exhalation and use that to keep as many foes as possible entangled. They won't be able to rush past and ignore the tank, plus it deals damage every turn so they're more likely to view him as a threat and spend attacks on him.

[Curelomosaurus]

If you feel like template abuse...

Arctic (dragon 306) gives +2 Con, -2 Cha, with no LA.

Half minotaur gives +12 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Int, Large size, natural armor, fast movement, and more for +1LA.

Primordial Giant gives +4 Int/Cha and -4 Str/-2 Con IIRC. No LA, and can be added to half minotaurs.

Unseelie fey gives -2 Str/Con, +2 Dex/Cha, flight, scaling DR, and more for no LA.

Mix and match for cheesy goodness! Add them all onto a medium creature for +6 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +6 Cha and a boatload of special abilities, for only one LA.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dragonborn of Bahamut on a warforged only loses the warforged armored body (which normally costs a feat to remove, although you can still use Adamantine Body, Mithril Body, etc), the warforged's slam attack (which isn't useful unless you're going with the Beast Strike feat on a monk), and a small penalty to Dex. Warforged keep their Construct type (giving a number of benefits not listed in the warforged entry, such as bonus HP based on size, as well as all the immunities that aren't overridden by Living Construct) and the Living Construct subtype, which is where most of their abilities lie. And since warforged don't get tired, take the wings aspect so you immediately gain flight without any drawbacks of having to wait until mid levels for it to be useful.

Simple, easy, and you look like a robotic dragon, which I love. You don't even have to refluff it.

[Particle_Man]

If it is more about quietly tanking than spotlight-stealing with melee damage, maybe an earth dwarf instead of water orc? The doubled stability is a nice touch there for the stone dragon maneuvers.

[GrayDeath]

Dragonborn of Bahamut on a warforged only loses the warforged armored body (which normally costs a feat to remove, although you can still use Adamantine Body, Mithril Body, etc), the warforged's slam attack (which isn't useful unless you're going with the Beast Strike feat on a monk), and a small penalty to Dex. Warforged keep their Construct type (giving a number of benefits not listed in the warforged entry, such as bonus HP based on size, as well as all the immunities that aren't overridden by Living Construct) and the Living Construct subtype, which is where most of their abilities lie. And since warforged don't get tired, take the wings aspect so you immediately gain flight without any drawbacks of having to wait until mid levels for it to be useful.

Simple, easy, and you look like a robotic dragon, which I love. You don't even have to refluff it.

This.

have used it to my fun and the Parties enjoyment ina ctual paly twice so far, and participated in a Comp here.

You dont need fast healing, you are a crusader, just attack a random squirrel or somesuch.

Assuming that your DM allows LA Buyoff, I would modify it as follows:
Draconic (for maximum Dragonness of the Robot) Warforged of Bahamut (Heart).
Depending on how RAW your DM is regarding other templates, as mentioned above, you might want to mix and match a bit further, but the above only tanks you one easily bought off LA, gives you quite the Immunity suite, and scaling Battle field Control in form of the Breath Weapon.

[Gruftzwerg]

I would go with a Deepwyrm Half-Drow.
At lvl 3, you pick up Draconic Aura: Vigor (feat). Since your Deepwyrm Half-Drow counts as dragonblooded, he now has a (lvl-)scaling aura that provides fast healing up to half of max hp.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I would go with a Deepwyrm Half-Drow.
At lvl 3, you pick up Draconic Aura: Vigor (feat). Since your Deepwyrm Half-Drow counts as dragonblooded, he now has a (lvl-)scaling aura that provides fast healing up to half of max hp.Y'know, dragonborn warforged counts as dragonblooded as well...

[Gruftzwerg]

Y'know, dragonborn warforged counts as dragonblooded as well...

yeah, but I prefer not to have any healing penalties on my tanks unless I really want to make a warforged build. Just personal preferences, you know?

The healing reduction for the healing subschool and supernatural abilities is kinda annoying if you want to work with heals imho.

IIRC both the crusader healing maneuvers/stances and even the healing aura are supernatural abilities that have to deal with the healing reduction that comes with a warforged character.

spells from the healing subschool and supernatural abilities that cure hit point damage or ability damage provide only half their normal effect to a warforged.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

yeah, but I prefer not to have any healing penalties on my tanks unless I really want to make a warforged build. Just personal preferences, you know?

The healing reduction for the healing subschool and supernatural abilities is kinda annoying if you want to work with heals imho.

IIRC both the crusader healing maneuvers/stances and even the healing aura are supernatural abilities that have to deal with the healing reduction that comes with a warforged character.Actually, neither Crusader's Strike nor Martial Spirit specify that they're Supernatural (and they're certainly not spells), so they're [Ex] by default, meaning the warforged's healing limitations don't matter for those whatsoever.

And fast healing and regeneration neither one are problematic, since any effect that grants one of them isn't healing directly, but instead granting an [Ex] special quality that heals. So Draconic Aura: Vigor should be fine.

A DM could rule otherwise, of course, but there's no accounting for houserules.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I'm a big fan of Frostblood Orcs for the Dragonblood subtype, qualifying you for the Dragonscale Husk ACF. Scaling (*rimshot*) AC better than full-plate, with some elemental resistances thrown in. Doesn't stack with racial, class, or feat bonuses to AC, but does stack with items if I'm reading it correctly, so some Bracers of Armor can give you armor enhancements or just send your AC through the roof.

One fun thing you can do that's not race-related is dual-wielding shields. Normally provides no benefit, but if one of the shields is riverine (Stormwrack), half its bonus to AC is deflection and will stack with the shield bonus from the other shield. Also, Crusaders are proficient in "all shields", which includes the exotic ones found in Races of Stone and maybe a few other places. Your best bet is still probably heavy shield(s) with Shield Specialization and Shield Ward to add them to your touch AC (and still be able to shield bash), and/or tower shield(s) for the ability to grant full cover.

[Gruftzwerg]

Actually, neither Crusader's Strike nor Martial Spirit specify that they're Supernatural (and they're certainly not spells), so they're [Ex] by default, meaning the warforged's healing limitations don't matter for those whatsoever.

And fast healing and regeneration neither one are problematic, since any effect that grants one of them isn't healing directly, but instead granting an [Ex] special quality that heals. So Draconic Aura: Vigor should be fine.

A DM could rule otherwise, of course, but there's no accounting for houserules.

Is that a rule that maneuvers are all by default (Ex)?
If we go by default differentiation I would say that both the healing maneuvers and the draconic aura belong to the (Su) category.
I can't imagine that the crusader healing is not magical (in terms of 3.5). I don't see any "natural healing" indicator that would classify this so. So we are left with magical healing.
Same goes for Draconic Aura imho. While regular Fast Healing may/can count as natural healing, here we have an aura ability which imho grants the fast healing ability via magic. (since the source is magical the fast healing ability also has to be magical unless otherwise specified).

Remember magic != spells there are other magical sources than spells and these are classified as (Su) by default.

[eversilentone]

I need suggestions... I'm planning out a cohort tanking Crusader (sword & board). He'll start at level 4 once I pick up Leadership at level 6. Basically, I'm not so much worried about tripping, more about holding the line and being able to soak tons of damage while the party does their murder hobo thing. I don't want him to over-shadow people, he's a sponge that sprays melee healing, not a hammer. I'd like to get the most racial bang for the buck. So natural armor is nice, +Con, fast healing, DR, etc.

Possible combinations I'm thinking about:

Water Orc (no level adjustment): +4 str, +2 con, -2 int, -2 wis, -2 charisma, darkvision, +other stuff
+
Proto-Creature (no level adjustment): +4 str, +2 con, -2 int, -4 char, darkvision, +3 nat. armor, rage ability

As cool as Rage sounds, apparently it can't be used with maneuvers so I'd need to do a Will save every attack.

Can I clarify if the no maneuvers during a rage is a house rule? Just that I can't see anything in ToB that prohibits that. In fact, the Tiger Blooded feat and the Bloodclaw Master PrC seem to specifically reference maneuvers during a rage? I could see a case being made that Diamond Mind (and it's associated skill, Concentration) at least thematically don't pair with rate, but even there no RAW prohibition. It looks like there are stronger combos out there, but you may have a bit more choice.

[Thurbane]

Is that a rule that maneuvers are all by default (Ex)?


A maneuver usable by crusaders is considered an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in its description

A stance is an extraordinary ability unless otherwise stated in the stance description.

Certain maneuvers are flagged as being Supernatural (mostly Desert Wind maneuvers, such as Dragon's Flame, Fiery Assault, Fire Risposte etc.).

The rest are Extraordinary.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Mineral warrior (arctic) azurin with Shape Soulmeld (Therapeutic Mantle) is nice for the improved Martial Spirit healing (heal 5 hp per attack, more if you have additional essentia).

[Zanos]

I'll second that mineral warrior, half-minotaur, water-orc, and dragonborn are all great options for a tanky strength based character. Artic Half-Orc Dragonborn Mineral Warrior is probably your best option for a heavy armor crusader. DR 8/Adamantine and +6 Str/+10 Con at ECL 2 might make your DM fray a bit, though. Adamantine weapons are basically non-existent on sample monsters and extremely expensive if your DM is going to start giving them to NPCs. At low levels dealing more than 8 damage in a single attack is pretty uncommon and anything that can deal 2 damage to you is probably killing the other PCs in 2-3 hits.

Half-Minotaur is exceptionally cheesy for raising strength, +12 from that, and can be stacked with Half-Ogre for free, since Half-Ogre only adds LA if it increases your size, which it does not do if you're already large. This will completely dumpster all your mental stats.

I'll mention Lloth-touched. It isn't quite as good as some of the cheesier templates mentioned above but it's pretty straight-forward: +6 Str, +6 Con, Immunity to Fear for +1 LA. Might require some unsavory alignment stuff.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm not sure why we're even discussing whether Crusader healing is Ex or Su, neither is reduced by the Living Construct subtype:

However, spells from the healing subschool provide only half effect to a living construct.

Only spells with the [Healing] (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#healing) subschool of the Conjuration school have half their effect on a living construct. All other healing effects including spell (Repair Damage spells, Body Adjustment psionic power, etc.) have the normal effect on living constructs.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm not sure why we're even discussing whether Crusader healing is Ex or Su, neither is reduced by the Living Construct subtype:

Only spells with the [Healing] (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#healing) subschool of the Conjuration school have half their effect on a living construct. All other healing effects including spell (Repair Damage spells, Body Adjustment psionic power, etc.) have the normal effect on living constructs.The version in the Eberron Campaign Setting says: "As living constructs, warforged can be affected by spells that target living creatures as well as by those that target constructs. Damage dealt to a warforged can be healed by a cure light wounds spell or a repair light damage spell, for example, and a warforged is vulnerable to disable construct and harm. However, spells from the healing subschool and supernatural abilities that cure hit point damage or ability damage provide only half their normal effect to a warforged."

So I guess use the most recent one from the MM3, instead of the original source.

[Gruftzwerg]

First, ty to those who pointed me to the (Ex) rules for manuevers. =)

______________


The version in the Eberron Campaign Setting says: "As living constructs, warforged can be affected by spells that target living creatures as well as by those that target constructs. Damage dealt to a warforged can be healed by a cure light wounds spell or a repair light damage spell, for example, and a warforged is vulnerable to disable construct and harm. However, spells from the healing subschool and supernatural abilities that cure hit point damage or ability damage provide only half their normal effect to a warforged."

So I guess use the most recent one from the MM3, instead of the original source.

not sure about that.

Because warforged are Eberron specific. Thus the "primary source" should still be the Ebberon Campaign Setting book. Which means that the MM3 can't override those rules. The MM3 could only add rules but not alter those given by the Ebberon Campaign Setting book.

[Zanos]

ECS is the primary source on Eberron, not monsters. MM3 should have priority, as you are arguing about the stats of a monster in a book called monster manual.

Primary source arguments are silly, though.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Draconic Aura: Vigor grants the (Ex) ability to heal quickly, as noted above, just like how polymorph grants (Ex) special attacks. Just because Creature A is polymorphed into a creature with claws and fangs doesn't mean Creature B, who is immune to magic, is immune to said fangs and claws. DA:V does not heal you. The (Ex) fast healing heals you.A bit more on-point, if a warforged used a supernatural polymorph effect that granted a form with fast healing but retained the living construct subtype, the polymorph itself would grant healing directly (as if you'd rested for a night), and this healing would be halved, assuming it applied at all. But if the new form granted [Ex] fast healing, the fast healing would function normally, as it's an [Ex] effect, not [Su], even if it was provided as a side-effect by a [Su] effect.

[Anthrowhale]

Something like a non-psionic Thri-kreen (LA+1) might be good. You'll have one level of Crusader and 5 attacks/round which can each cause healing.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Something like a non-psionic Thri-kreen (LA+1) might be good. You'll have one level of Crusader and 5 attacks/round which can each cause healing.Add in Rapidstrike and its iteratives to gain even more attacks. Add Improved Unarmed Strike to attack with your feet. Then take Beast Strike to add your claw attack damage to your unarmed strikes. Not BASE damage. Full damage. A dip in monk would be great for your unarmed strikes, since it opens a lot more options for unarmed strike enhancements.

[Gruftzwerg]

ECS is the primary source on Eberron, not monsters. MM3 should have priority, as you are arguing about the stats of a monster in a book called monster manual.

Primary source arguments are silly, though.

I'm arguing about "Eberon specific monsters".

and the mm3 doesn't change their primary campaign specific role:

Monsters in Eberron and Faerûn:
Some monster entries include a brief section describing the monster’s ecological niche in the EBERRON campaign setting or the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign setting (or both). If your campaign is not set in either Eberron or Faerûn, feel free to use the monster as you see fit.
So the MM3 assumes in the first place that those "monsters" are still used within their campaign, but give you the option to use em in other campaigns.
Technically the MM3 is still talking about the Ebberon warforged race, but gives the DM the option to use em in other campaigns.


and I don't get why Primary Source arguments would be stilly? It's not more or less silly to go just by the newest date.

If we have contradicting rules, we need rules to solve the situation. And in 3.5 it is a combination of rule hierarchy (primary source) if available for that topic (in our chase I would say yeas, ebberon specific creature/monster) or the latest printed version of a rule as fallback option to solve situations where the rules contradict each other.

[Zanos]

The primary source description specifically states that the monster manual is the primary source for monster descriptions. I see no reason why a campaign guide would take precedence over a book in the monster manual series for monster descriptions.

Anyway, Primary Sources are silly because it means that, among other things, there are only 11 Base Classes. After all, the PHB says that there are 11 Base Classes, so anything that isn't PHB errata can't add any more, because that would contradict a primary source. You wanted to add a fighter bonus feat? Too bad, there's already a list of valid fighter feats in the PHB. And on and on and on.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

On top of all the primary source arguments, the MM3 clearly defines the RAW of the Living Construct subtype for all creatures that have it, regardless of setting. Similar to rules updates for things like swift actions, a rules update such as this applies to everything that was printed previously, regardless of what you would consider to be the primary source for those individual things that are affected by it.

[GrayDeath]

On top of all the primary source arguments, the MM3 clearly defines the RAW of the Living Construct subtype for all creatures that have it, regardless of setting. Similar to rules updates for things like swift actions, a rules update such as this applies to everything that was printed previously, regardless of what you would consider to be the primary source for those individual things that are affected by it.

This.

You can, of course, argue that Warforged are special Living constructs and hence have different Rules, but honestly, if the RAW and the RAI are so in alignment to offer you a more beneficial result, why not simply take it?

I know I did with my recentmost Warforged (Dark and some other Templates), to allow our Theurge to actually heal me without wasting spells known on repair past the lvl 0.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Something like a non-psionic Thri-kreen (LA+1) might be good. You'll have one level of Crusader and 5 attacks/round which can each cause healing.

I'd generally prefer Insectile Creature (Savage Species), which gives you 4 extra limbs for +2 LA. No I don't know why it's called Insectile Creature when you end up with 8 limbs including feet. It still changes your type to Aberration, qualifying you for (Improved) Rapidstrike. Basically you're trading 1HD for a much better ECL and more offense, compared to a Thri-kreen.

[Anthrowhale]

I'd generally prefer Insectile Creature (Savage Species), which gives you 4 extra limbs for +2 LA. No I don't know why it's called Insectile Creature when you end up with 8 limbs including feet. It still changes your type to Aberration, qualifying you for (Improved) Rapidstrike. Basically you're trading 1HD for a much better ECL and more offense, compared to a Thri-kreen.

I'm not following---the template says that you get no extra attacks.

I'm also hazy on why people prefer rapidstrike to Improved two/multi-weapon fighting. Is it the -2 to-hit penalty? That can be removed with a level in warblade and 2 levels in bloodclaw master.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I'm not following---the template says that you get no extra attacks.

I'm also hazy on why people prefer rapidstrike to Improved two/multi-weapon fighting. Is it the -2 to-hit penalty? That can be removed with a level in warblade and 2 levels in bloodclaw master.

No extra attacks refers to natural weapons, unless I miss my guess; the extra limbs can still wield manufactured weapons. And yeah, Multi-Weapon Fighting is definitely the way to go, but if you get natural attacks as well (say a two level Totemist Dip), (Improved) Rapidstrike is at least an option available to you.

[PrismCat21]

the extra limbs can still wield manufactured weapons.

When I use the Insectile Template, I like to have him use a weapon he can wield with all his arms. Wielding a weapon in one hand lets you add your Strength bonus to damage. For each additional hand used to wield it, you add another 1/2 Strength damage. :smallbiggrin: 6 arms = 3.5xStr
The only downside is you need a weapon specifically made to be wielded by the exact number of limbs you're using. Not too big a problem usually.

[Anthrowhale]

The exact phrasing is:


Despite having six arms, insectile creatures gain no additional attacks.

This doesn't specifically refer to natural attacks or manufactured weapon attacks so it should apply to both categories equally. Using the extra arms for additional damage seems legit, as does using a two-handed weapon and a shield.

[Gruftzwerg]

The primary source description specifically states that the monster manual is the primary source for monster descriptions. I see no reason why a campaign guide would take precedence over a book in the monster manual series for monster descriptions.

Anyway, Primary Sources are silly because it means that, among other things, there are only 11 Base Classes. After all, the PHB says that there are 11 Base Classes, so anything that isn't PHB errata can't add any more, because that would contradict a primary source. You wanted to add a fighter bonus feat? Too bad, there's already a list of valid fighter feats in the PHB. And on and on and on.

In a "normal" chase I would totally agree with your logic, but..

Warforged where first released as player race in Ebberon and not as Monster in MM3. MM3 refers in its initial pages that there are monsters included from the Ebberon & FR setting and that if you (the DM) don't play there that you should "feel free to use em". ( see the quote from my last post of MM3 page 8)
With this explanation (MM3, page 8) I assume that the general rule for the MM3 is that these creatures/races/monsters are still Ebberon/FR specific.
To use em in other campaigns is an optional rule. Imho the MM3 makes it clear that it is referring to the campaign specific version in the first place.

As I see it:
- warforged are a Ebberon specific (player-)race.
- MM3 only lets a DM use em in other settings as optional rule, not by default.

So if by default warforged are not a general race/monster for any campaign. I don't see how MM3 has any right to change the already given rules from the ECS. It could only add to it, not alter it.
I don't see how the "optional rule to use em elsewhere" gives the MM3 any power/right to change Ebberon/FR specific stuff it mentions/refers to.