A necromancer subclass that doesn't raise the dead

[Luccan]

In some D&D settings creating Undead is Evil. It doesn't really matter why for the purposes of this post, but let's assume that a wizard wanted to favor other aspects of the Necromancy school for this reason. What could they focus on, without significantly expanding the necromancy spells available to all wizards?

This is brainstorming for a subclass, I'm looking for ideas on what abilities could/should be present. They can be slightly more expansive than working on just necromancy spells (I have an example below), but the majority of the subclass should be compatible with necromancy Wizard spells.

Ideas I've had so far:

1. Improving necrotic/poison damage. Probably something akin to Elemental Adept, maybe allowing spells that Poison to take hold on creatures otherwise immune to the effect (probably only a few times per day). Admittedly poison doesn't loom particularly large on the necromancy list, but for wizards it's one of only two offensive 1st level necromancy spells, the only one in the PHB and I'd like this to be PHB compatible. So perhaps bumping Immunity down to Resistance on poison as well, a few times per day at least.

2. Focus in on debuffs: a number of necromancy spells take the form of curses, afflictions, and fear effects. It's relatively easy to shake off or ignore some of these effects in 5e, so buffing this in some way might be reasonable

3. Life exchange: a few spells in the necromancy school deal with taking HP from one person and giving it to another. This could be just a power and is actually pretty similar to the level 2 power of the already existing necromancer class. Maybe something more party friendly?

What do you think might work for a non-undead focused necromancer? I'll post what I put together in the homebrew subforum once I've actually formed/begun forming the subclass.

[Sorinth]

I think a Necromancer that focuses on draining life forces would be interesting. They would be a mix between blaster and controller. Basically they would be firing rays of necromantic power that would either deal damage or drain them in some way (Causing disadvantage, or reducing an ability score), splash in a few control spells like Fear and you have a solid basis for a cool class.

[MrStabby]

So some of this sounds a bit like the death cleric...

So when you say a "wizard" subclass - do you mean a subclass of wizard or a more general caster subclass? It gives a few more options to work with.


The trouble with wizards is that they are generalists and adding a subclass doesn't really change this. If you add features to it, it really doesn't mean they won't use wall of force, fireball, hypnotic pattern etc.... unless the new option is better - in which case the class is broken.

As a general guide, the disparity in quality of spells between mediocre and good is huge. Buffing bad spells needs a huge buff to make them viable. To make them good enough to justify expending your subclass on needs a bigger buff still. Things like abjusration wizard is good because it buffs spells like counterspell and dispell magic. A Green Draconic sorcerer that buffs poison spells is rubbish because you were not likely to play the poison spells anyway.


If you were to say use Sorcerer instead with X spells are added to your class spell list and then give bonuses to those spells... then you might actually have a character that specialised in the more necromantic elements.


There are areas of necromancy not accessible to wizards - raise dead, for example. And also spells that arguably should be necromancy - like spirit guardians. If you want to have a stronger theme, adding some of thesenon-wizard spells might add to that. Problem is that as awizard can swap them in and out as needed it is pretty much all upside.

[Luccan]

So some of this sounds a bit like the death cleric...

So when you say a "wizard" subclass - do you mean a subclass of wizard or a more general caster subclass? It gives a few more options to work with.


The trouble with wizards is that they are generalists and adding a subclass doesn't really change this. If you add features to it, it really doesn't mean they won't use wall of force, fireball, hypnotic pattern etc.... unless the new option is better - in which case the class is broken.

As a general guide, the disparity in quality of spells between mediocre and good is huge. Buffing bad spells needs a huge buff to make them viable. To make them good enough to justify expending your subclass on needs a bigger buff still. Things like abjusration wizard is good because it buffs spells like counterspell and dispell magic. A Green Draconic sorcerer that buffs poison spells is rubbish because you were not likely to play the poison spells anyway.


If you were to say use Sorcerer instead with X spells are added to your class spell list and then give bonuses to those spells... then you might actually have a character that specialised in the more necromantic elements.


There are areas of necromancy not accessible to wizards - raise dead, for example. And also spells that arguably should be necromancy - like spirit guardians. If you want to have a stronger theme, adding some of thesenon-wizard spells might add to that. Problem is that as awizard can swap them in and out as needed it is pretty much all upside.

I do mean as a wizard subclass, because I like the idea of a necromancy wizard not focused on raising the dead, but the actual necromancer subclass is very much about the undead. I don't think all the other necromancy spells a wizard gets access to are garbage, but just like the PHB necromancer subclass gets a buff to creating and controlling undead, so should this theoretical subclass get a bonus to the aspects of the school it uses. I believe you can buff certain spells enough that they become much more desirable than before without making them strictly superior to any other option. I'm also not trying to get the subclass to never use Fireball. I'm trying to allow focus on the other aspects of their favored spell school.

[Sherlockpwns]

It’s not quite what you are after, but I’ve always liked the idea of a goblin death cleric. Among its many options is the only class combo that makes vamp touch mildly viable.

That is to use vamp touch and stack your cleric channel and your goblin damage into a single strike and heal for half damage. When you get it at level 5, that’s an avg of 28.5 dmg and 14.25 healing. Is that op? Not really, but it’s a solid hit and thematic.

It does require dm approval of course, but it is one of the few (only?) classes that gets a bonus to necrotic (bypass resistance).

I also created a char that was a divine soul focused on curses instead of healing and buffs, most of which are necromancy (divine soul being required for most of the spells needed). For level 1 we go to bane as the opener. At 2, blind. At level 3 spells bane swaps out for Curse. At level 5 spells upcast curse so you don’t have to concentrate. At level 6 spells concentration goes to eye bite.

It’s more a “witch” than a necromancer, but it should work pretty well. Just dump sorcerer points into twin casts for big fights. It can do some fun stuff like maintain 4 curses on 4 different targets (twin a non concentration level 5 and then another concentration level 3).

[Chronic]

I'm not sure if I can speak of non official paying content here but I found a rather inexpensive small supplement called necromancy can be good, providing new spells for morally sensitive spellcasters and I really liked it. From getting insight and memories from the dead to summoning a cut little pet spirit, possessing the body of an already deceased creature, reattaching limbs (and it doesn't have to be the original limb hehehe). The kind of rather balanced and very cool spells I'd like to find more often among homebrew.

[Magicspook]

Check out my homebrew for the ruin domain cleric (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?609081-Cleric-Ruin-domain-Feedback-appreciated). Its focused on debuffs. I playtested it a bit and as far as I could tell, it's balanced. The abilities are in-line with other cleric subclasses. Only thing is that it lacks is a lvl-14 feature.

[Analytica]

Soul manipulation focused? Gaining Speak with Dead and a few other cleric-only spells related to souls, ghosts, spirits. Ability to make some spells affect spirit-type creatures otherwise immune. Increase to some forms of damage perhaps. Turn Undead abilities. Abilities to make someone harder or impossible to raise, or to draw power from killing someone. Maybe healing spells from necromantic manipulation of flesh. Various interesting options not including raising undead. :)

[Kyutaru]

Sauron was referred to as a necromancer (as realistic a label as Gandalf being a wizard; *cough*angel*cough*) and his specialty seemed to be around corruption and immortality. He passed on the gift of an unnatural existence to the human kings who served him through the power of the magic rings that eroded them and enslaved their minds. Mind you, the rings themselves weren't corrupt and were created to be good. He made his own ring that poisoned them through theirs because the minds of men were too weak to resist his influence.

[Vogie]

You can't do it in the existing 5e Wizard framework, due to the generalized nature of the classes design, nor a Cleric, as it falls in the same boat. Nor could you use Sorcerer, due to minor effect of their subclasses on the overall class.

The best Necromancer subclass in the 5e mechanical framework would be the Warlock. Between a low number of spells at hand, an locked spell list, and an existing submechanic based around curses and manipulation thereof. They're also the only class that can cast Bestow Curse reliably at range via an invisible familiar, and already have the ability to cast False Life at-will.

I could see a subclass based on dropping curses, siphoning life and moving it around. Potentially a subclass that could, for example, have some sort of "spell vamp" on necromancy spells, allowing them to "overheal" themselves (increasing max health perhaps?), then using Life Transference as a way to single-target heal in a way much stronger than the others.

[Valmark]

Why not replace the 6th level feature of the "base" necromancy subclass with something that pierces resistance/immunity or boosts damage in some form? It's really the only thing that has anything to do with animating corpses.

[Luccan]

Why not replace the 6th level feature of the "base" necromancy subclass with something that pierces resistance/immunity or boosts damage in some form? It's really the only thing that has anything to do with animating corpses.

The last feature is strictly about undead as well (though not raising them), but I see your point. It's at least a workable starting point and creating one feature at a time will probably help me fine tune it.

[intregus]

The last feature is strictly about undead as well (though not raising them), but I see your point. It's at least a workable starting point and creating one feature at a time will probably help me fine tune it.

Depending on the direction you want to to with this you could change the level 6 ability to something like granting the temp hp you gain from your level 3 ability to those in a 10ft aura around you or something like that.

And the level14 feature could be something like elemental adept but for neurotic damage?

Then you'd really just need to create more spells that fit your theme.

[Avigor]

Ludicrously obvious mention I'm surprised nobody has brought up yet: Death Cleric. While they do get Animate Dead as a Domain spell, literally none of their abilities effect controlled undead (AD feels more tacked on because necromancy = undead), instead enhancing spells or granting what amounts to necrotic smites (because necromancy = grim reaper apparently, I've noticed the same idea in video games like Grim Dawn, Diablo 3, and Guild Wars 2). Admittedly the free twinning is more than a bit OP but still worth a mention IMO, even if as a throwaway.

More seriously, if you want fear may I suggest taking a look at 3.5 prestige classes Dread Witch and Nightmare Spinner? Specifically, Dread Witch has Absorb Fear and Reflective Fear, which allows you to effectively throw fear effects from others back onto them, and Delay Fear, allowing you to implant a fear effect that kicks in later (perhaps a bit niche in 5e but still I think it has potential; maybe make it a noncombat effect ala Whisper Bard?), in addition to just general fear boosts, piercing fear immunity, and moar fear effects. Nightmare Spinner, on the other hand, allows you to imbue all illusions with fear effects that can even cause harm or kill (if they fail saves), which could also be interesting.

TBH if you want to create an effect of "poison that effects immune things" I'd probably just suggest acid, as it just doesn't make anything resembling logical sense to be able to poison a rock with no metabolism or a skeleton without organs. Otherwise, necrotic that can rot the non-living makes sense to me and it is precedented above so go for it if your DM will allow it.

[Valmark]

Ludicrously obvious mention I'm surprised nobody has brought up yet: Death Cleric. While they do get Animate Dead as a Domain spell, literally none of their abilities effect controlled undead (AD feels more tacked on because necromancy = undead), instead enhancing spells or granting what amounts to necrotic smites (because necromancy = grim reaper apparently, I've noticed the same idea in video games like Grim Dawn, Diablo 3, and Guild Wars 2). Admittedly the free twinning is more than a bit OP but still worth a mention IMO, even if as a throwaway.

Nobody mentioned Death Cleric because the thread is about wizards. More specifically making a non-undead related necromancy subclass.

[MrStabby]

Nobody mentioned Death Cleric because the thread is about wizards. More specifically making a non-undead related necromancy subclass.

Actually I did mention death cleric right at the start, when clarifying what was desired.

I think that if I were to steal from the death cleric it would probably be the channel divinity options - turn undead seems appropriate for necromantic control and the extra burst damage might be useful. Giving these at level 2 (and a second use at level 6) might add to necromantic feel.


Personally, I think something like a level 2 ability that lets you convert poison damage to necrotic would be an appropriate minor boon for a necromancer as well.

Level 6 is a bigger deal and I think that the class needs:
Something that is a defining feature - thematic, unique
Something to provide an incentive to use necromancy spells, especially as the best tier1/tier2 is being excluded.

I think something like a "master of curses" type thing might help - when you are concentrating on a necromancy spell that affects a creature, you may have that creature get a -d4 penalty to saves and ability checks. The problem is that this is grossly underpowered given that the necromancy concentration spells that you would cast on an enemy are both rare and unimpressive. Blindness and bestow curse are rally the only ones at this level that are almost OK. The problem is that if you have a feature that makes the wizard's necromancy spells viable, then the moment there is actually a good necromancy spell available it becomes overpowered.

Trying to find abilities that interact with necromancy spells to bring them up to the power of other school spells as augmented by other wizard subclass features, whilst at the same time avoiding making them overpowered when there is actually a good one released is really hard.

[thorr-kan]

Necromancy's certainly about more than the creation and manipulation of undead, but they're the flashy options.

2E would have some good ideas for you to mine here, especially the Complete Necromancers and Complete Sha'irs. Focus on manipulating life force, attributes, the mind.

In a 5E context, work with necrotic and poison damage and resistance. Shoot, nobody said necromancy was dark only, so maybe some radiant affects as well.

Attribute modification steps on transmutation some. Tough. Necromancy can play this game, too.

Powers of the mind are also a classic necromancy trope. Psychic damage and manipulation are a thing.