Non-combat encounters that cost resources

[EggKookoo]

Social encounters and other non-combat stuff in 5e are not that hard to run. Skill checks cover most of those kinds of things, and the hardest part -- which isn't really that hard -- is picking a good DC or deciding which skill/ability to use.

But combat encounters are more than just "did I succeed with my roll?" They cost HP, spells slots, hit/inspiration/superiority/whatever dice, sorcery points, and so forth. Each encounter has a chance to consume something that might be useful for the next encounter, making that encounter harder. This continues until the party decides its running too low and they stop for a rest.

What kind of resources can be consumed for non-combat encounters? I can imagine something like a drinking contest, where a PC must make Con checks or saves or suffer some poison damage. Or some kind of spellcaster "show off." But I'm struggling with ideas.

I guess another way of putting it is, what aside from combat can still result in HP loss, or spell slot loss, or prompt the use of specialized feature dice (like superiority dice)?

[Trafalgar]

Some games have a "Reputation" or "Popularity" score that could become a resource. Like if you use intimidation to force a lower price on a merchant, you lose face with all the other merchants in a town.

[MaxWilson]

Social encounters and other non-combat stuff in 5e are not that hard to run. Skill checks cover most of those kinds of things, and the hardest part -- which isn't really that hard -- is picking a good DC or deciding which skill/ability to use.

But combat encounters are more than just "did I succeed with my roll?" They cost HP, spells slots, hit/inspiration/superiority/whatever dice, sorcery points, and so forth. Each encounter has a chance to consume something that might be useful for the next encounter, making that encounter harder. This continues until the party decides its running too low and they stop for a rest.

What kind of resources can be consumed for non-combat encounters? I can imagine something like a drinking contest, where a PC must make Con checks or saves or suffer some poison damage. Or some kind of spellcaster "show off." But I'm struggling with ideas.

I guess another way of putting it is, what aside from combat can still result in HP loss, or spell slot loss, or prompt the use of specialized feature dice (like superiority dice)?

Well, avoiding combat, obviously. Pass Without Trace from one PC and Invisibility V from another is probably cheaper than fighting a couple of Nycaloths and three Mezzoloths for example; Modify Memory on the fire giant King is cheaper and less risky than going to war with the whole Western Rim fire giant nation.

This is especially true if using force could bring you into conflict with a third party. Maybe you can get away with Detect Thoughts on the Vondish Ambassador to learn what he knows about how to get into the Broken Tower without being killed by the Medusas, but you can't get away with kidnapping him because King Hodgins would declare you outlaws.

[Unoriginal]

Social encounters and other non-combat stuff in 5e are not that hard to run. Skill checks cover most of those kinds of things, and the hardest part -- which isn't really that hard -- is picking a good DC or deciding which skill/ability to use.

But combat encounters are more than just "did I succeed with my roll?" They cost HP, spells slots, hit/inspiration/superiority/whatever dice, sorcery points, and so forth. Each encounter has a chance to consume something that might be useful for the next encounter, making that encounter harder. This continues until the party decides its running too low and they stop for a rest.

What kind of resources can be consumed for non-combat encounters? I can imagine something like a drinking contest, where a PC must make Con checks or saves or suffer some poison damage. Or some kind of spellcaster "show off." But I'm struggling with ideas.

I guess another way of putting it is, what aside from combat can still result in HP loss, or spell slot loss, or prompt the use of specialized feature dice (like superiority dice)?

Do you consider time a ressource?

[Amnestic]

Social encounters can use buff or enchantment spells to smooth things out. Infiltration ditto, adding illusion to the list.

If you're wilderness exploring, (un)natural hazards. Lightning storm hits while you're on some open plains and suddenly your party has to duck for cover or get zapped.


Do you consider time a ressource?

Usually time is less a resource on its own and more a factor on refreshing resources from rests so...kinda yes kinda no?

Time pressure's good and bad - constant use of it can make players feel rushed which, while appropriate for characters may not be fun to play so it's not something you can really use for a full campaign, but in smaller bursts. It's good for pushing players to complete the current dungeon they're in rather than long resting every other room but for narratives where many encounters per day aren't the norm, it's usually not the player's pace that decides that.

[EggKookoo]

Do you consider time a ressource?

In this context, no. At least not directly. I'm looking for a way to eat up the kinds of things combat would eat up. Hit points, spell slots, specialty dice, consumables, etc. Or at least for there to be a chance to eat these things up. It wouldn't have to be guaranteed, any more than a fight is guaranteed to do the same.

There are lots of complaints about how D&D isn't good at non-combat stuff. I don't disagree, but given the existing encounter/rest economy, it seems to me that the problem isn't with task resolution so much as resource depletion. If the party is at a banquet making deception, persuasion, and performance checks all night long, they come out of it at the end just as "rested" as when they went in. Sure, there could be a reason to cast some spells, but spellcasting usually isn't subtle and will change the feel of the encounter. And what about non-spellcasters?

PCs have lots of resources to spend, but really just for fighting things. I'm not looking for new "social resources" so much as ways to tie existing resource expenditure into non-combat activities. Hence the drinking game.

I have an upcoming session where my players are going to be the guests of honor at a dinner party. I do have some hack & slash planned.

The host's guards have all been replaced by magically disguised enemy gang members and are waiting for the signal to strike.

But I'm hoping to have the dinner party be more than just the PCs standing around holding drinks and saying "right, quite" to each other. I do have intrigue plots in mind for the other guests but right now it's mostly along the lines of "make an insight check -- ok, this guy really does know what happened down a the docks the other night." Useful, but really just informational. I want the PCs to feel tempted to risk some resources, almost like they've been through combat, before the spoiled stuff above happens.

[Kane0]

I once had a gateway that was sealed with a blood magic ritual. It was relatively simple to unlock, there is a rune that sits in one of the 12 clock positions and once it hits the right position the gateway unlocks. You can burn spell slots to turn it clockwise one spot per spell level and burn hit die to turn it one counterclockwise per hit die spent.
The trick was that the PCs didnt know which position unlocked the door, so it took a few burned resources to pop the door.

I similarly had a planar portal that activated for a number of uses equal to the level of the spell slot used to power it, each creature counting as one use.

Some illusions and traps could be easily disarmed, but that easy method lay behind some hazard or secondary trap that took a few HP from the character attempting it (and stops any ‘i retry until i roll well enough’ from the players)

Hidden/sequestered doors and items could only be found/retrieved by ritual which was picked up elsewhere in the adventure, the cost of which could vary to be HP, spell slots, exhaustion levels, magic item charges, etc

Hazardous terrain or other obstacles in general actually. For example a dungeon room contains no critters but is magically chilled and so is piled full of meat thrown in there to keep it preserved. Cold resistance or the proper clothes means you’re fine if you have or can get it otherwise you would need to suppress the effect with a dispel magic or take a bit of cold damage as you navigate the room.

Social encounters that demand something of the characters, such as a potential ally that is wounded and in need of healing or a creature that has valuable information if you could properly communicate with it.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

If failing the skill challenge have consequences there is a reason to use spells and abilities.

I bet the bard will cast Enhance Ability on the party when they are trying to bring a bot to safety in a storm, or when having a talk with a dangerous party like a dragon.

Stuff like detect magic or Identify may need to be cast as non rituals if you need to solve a trap room as it's getting smaller or filled with water in less then 10 minutes.
You won't need to use resources only if the task can not be fail and you can retry.

A trap for example is a non combat encounter that can cost resources if failed(health). You are more likely to fail it is you don't use other resources to deal with it.

Crossing a cliff may need resources if some of it requires to fly or a high DC climb (maybe a ranging barbarian will feel comfortable to do it because he will probably won't die from the fall and the fact he roll with advantage because it is a str check).

[Unoriginal]

In this context, no. At least not directly. I'm looking for a way to eat up the kinds of things combat would eat up. Hit points, spell slots, specialty dice, consumables, etc. Or at least for there to be a chance to eat these things up. It wouldn't have to be guaranteed, any more than a fight is guaranteed to do the same.

Fair.



There are lots of complaints about how D&D isn't good at non-combat stuff. I don't disagree, but given the existing encounter/rest economy, it seems to me that the problem isn't with task resolution so much as resource depletion. If the party is at a banquet making deception, persuasion, and performance checks all night long, they come out of it at the end just as "rested" as when they went in. Sure, there could be a reason to cast some spells, but spellcasting usually isn't subtle and will change the feel of the encounter. And what about non-spellcasters?

Magic is generally not that useful for social, aside from buffs, occasional mind-reading, or doing a spectacle. Using magic to influence people usually backfire, which I'm more than happy about personally.



PCs have lots of resources to spend, but really just for fighting things. I'm not looking for new "social resources" so much as ways to tie existing resource expenditure into non-combat activities. Hence the drinking game.

I've seen players use quite a bit of ressources for exploration. Accessing places, detecting and analyzing things,



But I'm hoping to have the dinner party be more than just the PCs standing around holding drinks and saying "right, quite" to each other. I do have intrigue plots in mind for the other guests but right now it's mostly along the lines of "make an insight check -- ok, this guy really does know what happened down a the docks the other night." Useful, but really just informational. I want the PCs to feel tempted to risk some resources, almost like they've been through combat, before the spoiled stuff above happens.

In that case, I would have a caster of some reputation at the party and their students make a demonstration of their powers as part of the entertainment (maybe the host is the patron of the magic school or the like). Then someone among the guests suggest that the PCs, as guests of honor, show off their powers too, with the other guests enthusiastically agreeing they should do so. Then if the PCs do and actually are more impressive than the students' demonstration, the spellcaster take umbrage and compete with the PCs to see who can make the most impressive display.

I don't know your players, but I've seen a lot of them who would love to get the chance to upstage NPCs at their own game.

[EggKookoo]

Magic is generally not that useful for social, aside from buffs, occasional mind-reading, or doing a spectacle. Using magic to influence people usually backfire, which I'm more than happy about personally.

Agreed. I don't think the PCs are going to be casually casting spells during a banquet without anyone else noticing. This campaign is in Eberron (albeit heavily homebrewed), so anyone with any education is going to recognize magic use. If the PCs are using magic, the guests/host are going to have a good chance of being aware of it, so it needs to make sense in context or there'll be some raised eyebrows.


I've seen players use quite a bit of ressources for exploration. Accessing places, detecting and analyzing things,

This is sparking something...


In that case, I would have a caster of some reputation at the party and their students make a demonstration of their powers as part of the entertainment (maybe the host is the patron of the magic school or the like). Then someone among the guests suggest that the PCs, as guests of honor, show off their powers too, with the other guests enthusiastically agreeing they should do so. Then if the PCs do and actually are more impressive than the students' demonstration, the spellcaster take umbrage and compete with the PCs to see who can make the most impressive display.

I don't know your players, but I've seen a lot of them who would love to get the chance to upstage NPCs at their own game.

I have a couple of savvy players who might see through a deliberate attempt to get them to spend resources, and that might be enough to warn off the less-experienced ones. But your mention of analyzing things makes me wonder if I shouldn't structure the banquet like a "murder dinner party," where something unexpected happens and the host/guests turn to the PCs to solve the mystery. This might actually be a ruse by one of the guests to wear down the PCs before unleashing his own forces (mentioned in the spoiler tag upthread). I think there's something there...

[nickl_2000]

Let me give an example of a somewhat non-combat encounter. Our PCs needed to talk to a local gang leader who was holed up in a ship and there was a bouncer that wouldn't let us in.

We had two choices. Fight our way in, but we needed information from this crime lord, so that wasn't ideal. Or try to talk our way in. Yes a persuasion roll here could accomplish it, or you can extend the encounter further by just not allowing the persuasion roll to work at this point since you don't know the password.

In this case, my character spent a cached contact from a Carousing downtime action to find out information about the crime lord (a resource) which gave us the password to get past the bouncer. Then the charismatic paladin got to use his character to roll persuasion roll (at advantage in this case) to persuade the bouncer to take us directly to the crime lord.

Now, once we were with the crime lord to get information, we (unbeknownst to us beforehand) needed to get to a very high DC persuasion to be able to get the information we needed. At our level, we weren't even close to the needed bonus to get to the DC, even if we had expertise. Instead, we had ways that we could get bonuses to the roll. This was done through offering to bribe the crime lord, playing a game called kniveses, and a few other things. The kniveses game consisted of coins and a dagger placed on the table and one PC faced off against one thug. You rolled initiative and on your turn got to act. The Paladin used athletics to grapple the other person, drag them away, and collect the coins while keeping the thug away from them. My arcane trickster attempted to use tasha's on the thugs to disable them, grabbed the knife and stabbed his way to victory.


Overall we spent a contact, some HP, and spells for an encounter. And to be honest, it was a lot more memorable than combat.

[Asisreo1]

Not sure how this could pertain to your specific example of a Banquet but...

Traps are a tried and true classic. Many run them incorrectly, but PC's don't automatically understand a trap upon passing their Passive Perception or search. They only find things that hint to a trap. A pressure plate, weird markings, holes in the walls. It takes an investigation check to actually succeed.

Which makes things dangerous even with a rogue. They can have great perception but if they don't know how it works or if they're even looking at a trap, they could still trigger it.

What can throw people off is that not every pressure plate or tripwire is a trap. They may be the only way forward, teaching them that seeing a pressure plate or runes doesn't immediately mean good or bad.

[Unoriginal]

Agreed. I don't think the PCs are going to be casually casting spells during a banquet without anyone else noticing. This campaign is in Eberron (albeit heavily homebrewed), so anyone with any education is going to recognize magic use. If the PCs are using magic, the guests/host are going to have a good chance of being aware of it, so it needs to make sense in context or there'll be some raised eyebrows.

I always considered that in most context, someone casting a spell without announcing it in a crowd would be treated like pulling a grenade and waving it around (aka seen as an immediate threat until proven otherwise). And even with announcing it it would make people nervous.




I have a couple of savvy players who might see through a deliberate attempt to get them to spend resources, and that might be enough to warn off the less-experienced ones.

Even if the caster teacher is really arrogant and goading about how they don't think the PCs can beat the challenge?



But your mention of analyzing things makes me wonder if I shouldn't structure the banquet like a "murder dinner party," where something unexpected happens and the host/guests turn to the PCs to solve the mystery. This might actually be a ruse by one of the guests to wear down the PCs before unleashing his own forces (mentioned in the spoiler tag upthread). I think there's something there...

When I was a teen, I've read a "Choose Your Own Adventure" book where the MC was invited to a party in order for a mage to test if they were good enough for the job the mage wanted them to do. The task the MC has to do is figure out which of the guests is actually the mage-employer. Turns out all the party goers except the employer, a second mage (here mostly to throw off divination attempts asking "who here is a mage?") and an assassin here to kill the employer are in fact very elaborate illusions created by the employer. You could do something similar to this.

Or you could have the host explains to the PCs that they're quite certain someone at the party is going to try to kill the PCs, with them trying to figure who among the guests is the culprit... only for the fake guards to be the menace.

[Amnestic]

I have a couple of savvy players who might see through a deliberate attempt to get them to spend resources, and that might be enough to warn off the less-experienced ones. But your mention of analyzing things makes me wonder if I shouldn't structure the banquet like a "murder dinner party," where something unexpected happens and the host/guests turn to the PCs to solve the mystery. This might actually be a ruse by one of the guests to wear down the PCs before unleashing his own forces (mentioned in the spoiler tag upthread). I think there's something there...

There could be party games/entertainment that aren't just the PCs showing off but they're nevertheless obligated to take part in (as the guests of honour), ones where magic is explicitly allowed as its intended to be moments for the attendants to show off and make names for themselves.

A race/obstacle course (hazards) against some other guests, maybe the host has a prize horse who is notoriously difficult to ride and they challenge the party to befriend/tame him. There could be high stakes gambling on offer, perhaps deprive the party (temporarily?) of some of their magical items if they bargain poorly. There could be a chef, either guest or hired by the host, who specialises in exotic often poisonous food and offers players a chance to win big if they can survive his meal set.

If there's a reward at the end of the resource expenditure (either tangible in gold/items or something more abstract like 'a favour') then it could entice the more experienced players.


Not sure how this could pertain to your specific example of a Banquet but...

Traps are a tried and true classic. Many run them incorrectly, but PC's don't automatically understand a trap upon passing their Passive Perception or search. They only find things that hint to a trap. A pressure plate, weird markings, holes in the walls. It takes an investigation check to actually succeed.

Which makes things dangerous even with a rogue. They can have great perception but if they don't know how it works or if they're even looking at a trap, they could still trigger it.

What can throw people off is that not every pressure plate or tripwire is a trap. They may be the only way forward, teaching them that seeing a pressure plate or runes doesn't immediately mean good or bad.

There could be a trapmaker in attendance who offers a reward to anyone who can successfully disarm his device? Or mix them into the obstacle course/race.

[stoutstien]

I don't think trying to track resources spent per encounter is a good idea just due to the uncertainty of each given one. The potentially deadly encounter with a dragon might end without a single arrow being fired or spell slot spent and the very next one dealing with negotiating safe passage through a tribe of kobolds territory might spin out of control and end with the party trying to escape a collapsing tunnel system after a miss-placed fireball.

Then I have to ask the question, what is the difference between a combat, social or exploration encounter in your eye?

[nickl_2000]

I don't think trying to track resources spent per encounter is a good idea just due to the uncertainty of each given one. The potentially deadly encounter with a dragon might end without a single arrow being fired or spell slot spent and the very next one dealing with negotiating safe passage through a tribe of kobolds territory might spin out of control and end with the party trying to escape a collapsing tunnel system after a miss-placed fireball.

Then I have to ask the question, what is the difference between a combat, social or exploration encounter in your eye?

Ya, you never know when the Paladin will roll a critical hit, smite the creature, and roll perfectly to end the encounter in a single hit rather than the difficult encounter that it was supposed to be (for example based on what happened last week while playing).

[Kyutaru]

I think we've all seen that quest in a game where the wounded man begs for a healing potion.

-1 Healing Potion

[EggKookoo]

I don't think trying to track resources spent per encounter is a good idea just due to the uncertainty of each given one. The potentially deadly encounter with a dragon might end without a single arrow being fired or spell slot spent and the very next one dealing with negotiating safe passage through a tribe of kobolds territory might spin out of control and end with the party trying to escape a collapsing tunnel system after a miss-placed fireball.

CR is basically a rank of how expensive an encounter is going to be. D&D 5e is built around the idea that the party engages in a series of encounters that they're (typically) expected to survive, but at a resource cost. This cost adds up. Eventually encounters of the same CR start to become harder as the party runs low on hit dice, spell slots, potions, etc. At some point they decide to rest.

Yes, some encounters are outside the norm, just to make things interesting. But even a series of medium encounters will eventually run the party dry.


Then I have to ask the question, what is the difference between a combat, social or exploration encounter in your eye?

A combat encounter has a chance of depleting resources that could be used for a subsequent combat encounter. If luck is on your side and you don't lose any HP or burn any slots or whatever, that's fine. It's offset by those encounters where the dice are against you and you burn more than average. Combat encounters involve dice, of course, but they also have a potential resource cost. This resource cost is the reason for the rest mechanic, and is part of the "adventuring day."

Social encounters also involve dice, but they don't usually cost anything. You make a skill roll to persuade someone of something, but you don't usually spend any kind of mechanical resource. So these kinds of encounters don't inherently have that kind of attrition thing that combat encounters do. They more function as path-branches. If you successfully persuade the guard to let you pass, you avoid a combat encounter. If you don't, you might need to fight the guard.

What I'm trying to work out is a way to make extended social encounters have a potential resource cost, the same way combat encounters do. I would love to have a series of social encounters lead up to a boss fight (or something like that), but have those social encounters apply resource attrition the same way a series of mook combat encounters would have. Specifically, the resources consumed during the social encounters need to be ones that would also be valuable during the boss fight.

[Amnestic]

Social encounters also involve dice, but they don't usually cost anything. You make a skill roll to persuade someone of something, but you don't usually spend any kind of mechanical resource. So these kinds of encounters don't inherently have that kind of attrition thing that combat encounters do. They more function as path-branches. If you successfully persuade the guard to let you pass, you avoid a combat encounter. If you don't, you might need to fight the guard.

What I'm trying to work out is a way to make extended social encounters have a potential resource cost, the same way combat encounters do. I would love to have a series of social encounters lead up to a boss fight (or something like that), but have those social encounters apply resource attrition the same way a series of mook combat encounters would have. Specifically, the resources consumed during the social encounters need to be ones that would also be valuable during the boss fight.

Since HP is "a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck", maybe you could give players the opportunity to burn hit points/hit dice on boosting a social roll, either via advantage or a straight +++ boost? I'm not sure if I'd necessarily want to do it myself, and I'd be wary about how far that system might stretch (could you do it with attack rolls? eh...) but it's an idea.

Edit: If you had it apply to skill checks only (so no attack rolls/spell saves etc.)...maybe it'd work? It'd turn a skill check into a two step system - RNG, and then if they fail that player gets the choice to burn HP on succeeding regardless, with perhaps the quality of the roll impacting that (burn HP equal to how much you need to beat the DC after rolling? burn 1HD=instant advantage?)

Would give higher HP classes a boon on skill checks, which might hurt the rogue/bard who're meant to be skill experts, but they're probably rolling higher to begin with.

Might have to limit it to non-combat skill checks so you couldn't guarantee grapple/shove successes.

[Kyutaru]

Since HP is "a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck", maybe you could give players the opportunity to burn hit points/hit dice on boosting a social roll, either via advantage or a straight +++ boost? I'm not sure if I'd necessarily want to do it myself, and I'd be wary about how far that system might stretch (could you do it with attack rolls? eh...) but it's an idea.

And when they burn enough HP to hit 0 then that's their luck running out and the guards dragging them to prison.

[EggKookoo]

Interesting.

Or maybe flip it on its head? Social encounters don't cost resources, but succeeding in them provide bonuses. Bonuses that are very short-term but might prove useful in the upcoming boss fight. Have to be careful not to let it spiral out of control, though...

[Amnestic]

If you're going down that route you may want to consider turning the banquet into a full on skill challenge with point tallies for success/fails affecting the future combat.

Matt Colville had a good video on them that I felt was pretty informative and may give you some ideas here (https://youtu.be/GvOeqDpkBm8)

[EggKookoo]

If you're going down that route you may want to consider turning the banquet into a full on skill challenge with point tallies for success/fails affecting the future combat.

I'm not sure this would be a systemic solution, but it might help for my upcoming game.


Matt Colville had a good video on them that I felt was pretty informative and may give you some ideas here (https://youtu.be/GvOeqDpkBm8)

I will check it out. Thanks!

[KorvinStarmast]

What kind of resources can be consumed for non-combat encounters? I can imagine something like a drinking contest, where a PC must make Con checks or saves or suffer some poison damage. Or some kind of spellcaster "show off." But I'm struggling with ideas.

I guess another way of putting it is, what aside from combat can still result in HP loss, or spell slot loss, or prompt the use of specialized feature dice (like superiority dice)? 1. Third level spell, fly. I used it to ferry the party up a sheer cliff face that was something like 400' high. We only had one party member who was proficient in athletics, so the risk of a failed attempt was high. (About a year prior, our bard had falled 300' to his death).
No combat, ate the spell slot, and off we went ... and we used that spell slot (I am a warlock, only have two per short rest) because we had a time constraint, and didn't want to be exposed to attacks while climbing a sheer cliff using stuff like rope and spikes, etc). It lasts ten minutes, and the DM had me fly at a reduced speed when I carried the Fighter up (Due to me being Encumbered). I didn't have much time left on my fly spell by the time I was done.

2. Pass without trace, level two spell slot, to explicitly avoid combat: get the party past something that would eat a lot of resources if the party engaged with them.

[stoutstien]

Unfortunately approaching the game with set types of encounter works fine for hack n slash dungeon dash games but it starts breaking down once you try adding in meaningful social and exploration content.
As long as you are setting encounters to be combat and judging them based on resources spent smart players are correct in avoid spending anything outside of those.

[Kyutaru]

A form of social combat would require social resources. Combat is easy to do because it's math based. So now we need to come up with a mathematical interpretation for how much influence and appeal you have. Or how many points in Scary you placed. While possible, and done in other systems, it kind of detracts from the roleplay when your response to a threat is spending d4 Alliances to re-roll your Bluff check or suffer 10 Influence damage. Let the talking parts be mainly about talking. It's a nice break from the combat bits that are all about furious dice rolling and algebra.

If X is the AC and Y is my bonus then what do I need to roll as Z+Y to equal X? :smallconfused:

[EggKookoo]

As long as you are setting encounters to be combat and judging them based on resources spent smart players are correct in avoid spending anything outside of those.

Agreed, which is why I'm trying to come up with interesting things outside of combat to spend them on.


A form of social combat would require social resources. Combat is easy to do because it's math based. So now we need to come up with a mathematical interpretation for how much influence and appeal you have. Or how many points in Scary you placed. While possible, and done in other systems, it kind of detracts from the roleplay when your response to a threat is spending d4 Alliances to re-roll your Bluff check or suffer 10 Influence damage. Let the talking parts be mainly about talking. It's a nice break from the combat bits that are all about furious dice rolling and algebra.

This is a YMMV thing, I think. Social-interaction mechanics are already here and aren't super math-heavy. What's missing is a resource component that helps with that success (or is lost upon failure). It's like combat except that if you make your attack roll, the goblin just dies. If you fail it, you die.

Imagine if something limited how often you could make a persuasion check in between short rests. Or at least degraded your ability to do so. Or in general, you were limited in how many checks/saves per Ability could be made between rests (social or not). A warlock that spends his whole afternoon being persuasive and deceptive might find his ability to cast Cha-based spells that evening impacted.

I dunno. Brainstorming here...

[Kyutaru]

Imagine if something limited how often you could make a persuasion check in between short rests. Or at least degraded your ability to do so. Or in general, you were limited in how many checks/saves per Ability could be made between rests (social or not). A warlock that spends his whole afternoon being persuasive and deceptive might find his ability to cast Cha-based spells that evening impacted.

I dunno. Brainstorming here...

Working on it. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?617523-Luck-points-not-Hit-points)

[stoutstien]

what happens when one of your combat encounters turns into a social one or vice versa?

[Kyutaru]

what happens when one of your combat encounters turns into a social one or vice versa?
Then it's a good thing I'm using a shared resource.

[stoutstien]

Then it's a good thing I'm using a shared resource.

My bad. I meant to direct that to the OP.

[EggKookoo]

My bad. I meant to direct that to the OP.

Honestly my answer would mostly be the same. While I find the alternate resource thing that Kyutaru is working on interesting, I'm not really looking to layer in a new resource mechanic to my existing game. I'm more interested in trying to find ways to prompt the spending of resources that are normally associated with combat, but in non-combat ways. Specifically in social-interaction ways, but I guess in theory anything that's not conventional combat is good.

I think consuming a resource for a social encounter that could have value in a later combat encounter is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for.

[Kurt Kurageous]

I've made the conclusion that any interaction (encounter) that depletes long rest restored resources should get an XP reward. The only exception is defeating a foe by trickey and/or without fighting.

Use a resource you can't recover between resets (like HP, spell slots, and class features)? Get full XP. Cause hill giant to chase a diversion allowing you to cross the bridge? Full XP.

Win fight/noncombat with cantrips/weapons/skills and not lose hit points? Too easy, half XP.

Where this gets fun is with traps or other passive foes. Detect and defeat a trap? Half XP. Take damage from a trap? Full XP.

Justification with RL? You remember your defeats far more than your easy victories.

Justification within 5e rules? The game was designed for a party of 4-5 to face 6- 8 "encounters" between resource resets using only their cantrip/default abilities to DPR vs a known AC/HP foe who does a certain DPR. Spells and spell like abilities makes getting through the day easier.

Now you know as a DM why all those hard and deadly fights you planned out just don't seem so hard/deadly when played out.

[Unoriginal]

I've made the conclusion that any interaction (encounter) that depletes long rest restored resources should get an XP reward. The only exception is defeating a foe by trickey and/or without fighting.

Use a resource you can't recover between resets (like HP, spell slots, and class features)? Get full XP. Cause hill giant to chase a diversion allowing you to cross the bridge? Full XP.

Win fight/noncombat with cantrips/weapons/skills and not lose hit points? Too easy, half XP.

Where this gets fun is with traps or other passive foes. Detect and defeat a trap? Half XP. Take damage from a trap? Full XP.

Justification with RL? You remember your defeats far more than your easy victories.

Justification within 5e rules? The game was designed for a party of 4-5 to face 6- 8 "encounters" between resource resets using only their cantrip/default abilities to DPR vs a known AC/HP foe who does a certain DPR. Spells and spell like abilities makes getting through the day easier.

Now you know as a DM why all those hard and deadly fights you planned out just don't seem so hard/deadly when played out.


Doesn't that kinda remove a big incentive to play smart? Like the Rogue and the Barbarian manage to steal the guards' keys, and then break the group out of the jail tower with no one noticing, it's rewarded less than being seen and hit by the guards?

I agree an option with less risk should give less XPs, but if you take the risky option and manage it without spending ressources, it shouldn't be less rewarded.

[Kyutaru]

It's like beating the boss in a video game without getting hit and he drops only the common loot.

But spending 40 Potions on brute forcing him like a scrub guarantees you get the legendary drop.

[KorvinStarmast]

I've made the conclusion that any interaction (encounter) that depletes long rest restored resources should get an XP reward. The only exception is defeating a foe by trickey and/or without fighting. Heh, if the players outsmart/outwit the enemy, I tend to love it. But I was raised on the old school game where getting XP from GP was more XP once one got to the major loot ... and that often took avoiding some encounters.

Use a resource you can't recover between resets (like HP, spell slots, and class features)? Get full XP. Cause hill giant to chase a diversion allowing you to cross the bridge? Full XP. Ok.

Win fight/noncombat with cantrips/weapons/skills and not lose hit points? Too easy, half XP. What do you mean by "too easy" ... the luck of dice rolls or the enemy had no chance to attack?

Where this gets fun is with traps or other passive foes. Detect and defeat a trap? Half XP. Take damage from a trap? Full XP.
Aah, I think I see where you are going with this.


Justification within 5e rules? The game was designed for a party of 4-5 to face 6- 8 "encounters" between resource resets using only their cantrip/default abilities to DPR vs a known AC/HP foe who does a certain DPR.
Wait, what? Where did you get this info from. I was under the impression that the 6-8 encounters included spell resources. (and particularly with resistancea and immunities sprinkled all over the game even in tier 1. See Flameskill encounter in Starter Set). HP are a resource.


Spells and spell like abilities makes getting through the day easier. With 8 encounters, they make it possible.

Now you know as a DM why all those hard and deadly fights you planned out just don't seem so hard/deadly when played out. Yeah. 6 "medium to hard" is a different resource drain in a different way than three or four 'XP adjusted" tougher fights. Anyone can hit you with a 20 with bounded accuracy ...

[Habber_Dasher]

You could always do an old fashioned skill challenge. Your players are presented with a challenge, each of them has to describe what they do and you roll an appropriate skill check. A certain amount of wins you succeed, a certain amount of loses you fail, and presumably something bad happens. At our table you can use any sort of resource (spell slots, Ki points, action surges etc.) To get a bonus on the roll as long as you can describe how you are using the resource.

[Unoriginal]

Justification within 5e rules? The game was designed for a party of 4-5 to face 6- 8 "encounters" between resource resets using only their cantrip/default abilities to DPR vs a known AC/HP foe who does a certain DPR. Spells and spell like abilities makes getting through the day easier.

Now you know as a DM why all those hard and deadly fights you planned out just don't seem so hard/deadly when played out.



Wait, what? Where did you get this info from. I was under the impression that the 6-8 encounters included spell resources. (and particularly with resistancea and immunities sprinkled all over the game even in tier 1. See Flameskill encounter in Starter Set). HP are a resource.

5e was designed in a way that makes a party of 4-5 facing 6-8 Easy-to-Medium encounters will likely be out of ressources and in need of a long rest due to sheer attrition.

The 6-8 encounters are the ressource drain.

[EggKookoo]

I've made the conclusion that any interaction (encounter) that depletes long rest restored resources should get an XP reward.

I pretty much agree. The more I internalize that encounters exist to drain resources, the more I see the connection between resources, CR, and XP. You get XP not because you had to make attack rolls to kill the monster, but because the fight with the monster risked some of your resources.

Consequently, using a skill check to get past a monster shouldn't award XP -- except that feels unfair, at least to me. This is why I would love to tie some kind of resource risk to skill checks. The more I think about it, the more I think this is a large element of the "D&D doesn't do non-combat well."

Instead of Hit Dice, 5e should have had some kind of general-purpose Resource Dice that can be applied to any roll you make, including restoring HP during a short rest. You can choose to boost your attack rolls, damage rolls, checks and/or saves, but you impair how well you can recover between fights.

[Man_Over_Game]

One thing that has always bugged me about the mentality that we should be implementing noncombat encounters to encourage resource use out of combat, is that most examples of using a resource out of combat aren't very reliable.

Sure, you could follow the guard into the castle disguised as a maid and work something on the inside to get your friends in.

You could pickpocket him while he was distracted in town.

You could use illusions to cover your advance as you and your team follow him.

But those all have a random chance of success while being potentially catastrophic if they fail.

On the opposite side of things, you can definitely afford to beat him up when he's alone and take his key, then just lock him up in a closet somewhere.


Succeeding in combat is extremely reliable, but using resources to succeed in other ways is not. That's why most people value the Divination Wizard for it's Portent combat feature, instead of the fact that it can cast as many high-level Divination spells as it could ever want. A good DM is aware of those costs, and may consider things like "Well, he did cast Arcane Eye, and I like that he did that rather than the classic 'Run in and kill them first' strategy, so I'll give him some information that trivializes the next fight". But you can't expect every DM to run it that way, and especially not for every chance that it comes up.

I think part of it is due to the fact that checks/skills/utility spells are either "Hit or Miss", usually on a single die, while combat uses dozens of dice rolls and mechanics that not only balance out the randomness, but also gives time for players to devise a solution to an upcoming failure.

But you can't really respond to someone questioning the disguised maid on the private side of the castle, and even if you could it's unlikely to have any kind of mechanical foundation in the game (making even those recovery moments unreliable). Most of those saves are done by the player, not by the game, or even with much help from the game.

There's very little "We get inside and then we figure out the next part when we get there". It's almost always "Everything works as planned" or "We resort to fists sooner/later than expected".

Having a system in place where enemies had a "Detection Limit", where they become increasingly suspicious in a short amount of time, but still giving players the chance to react, would have gone a long way to encouraging players to take risks using utility and subterfuge to solve their problems, rather than the boring, guaranteed strategy of "kill it first".

Not that combat isn't something you should have, but right now the majority of the "challenges" a DM is able to present are generally:

A threatening encounter, slightly undertuned to dwindle player resources.
A threatening encounter, heavily scaled upward as this is the climax.
A nonthreatening scenario, where success or failure doesn't make much difference.

Which gives people the natural mentality that the only time your actions matter is in combat, and the only times you should ever spend your resources..are in combat. Thus why one of the worst combatant Wizard subclasses, and best utility builds (in the game), is only ever mentioned for its combat feature.

But we are also kinda screwed DM-side, since we can't really afford to threaten you with nonviolent and important scenarios that are decided with a coin toss, can we? Even if we could, appropriate rewards for success are difficult to come up with. Say you DO use Arcane Eye to spy on the band of Orcs patrolling up ahead - what information could I actually give you that'd make it matter, and make a difference? Sure, there can be some specific examples for working around a patrol team of orcs, but can the same be said about manipulation? Using illusions or distractions? Or someone trying to infiltrate an enemy base? Can I consistently reward you for spending resources on something where a safer option is almost always available?

How do I reward you without saying "you win", and how do I challenge you without the chance of completely destroying the entire interesting, complex, risky plan you came up with on a single failed roll?

These are the questions that make something like the thread topic so difficult.

[Jamesps]

The best way to make an encounter take up resources is to raise the stakes on it. Most social encounters are pretty low stakes, even if they're framed as being high stakes because no one accepts "Party TPK" or similar level consequences from botched social rolls or decisions. Whereas in theory any combat encounter could kill the party, or cause enough damage that they die later.

If you can up the stakes of your other encounters to have serious consequences for failure the players will choose to spend resources of their own volition. At that point you just have to provide the opportunity to spend those resources.

The hard part is that gold is going to be the most general resource you can sap, which unfortunately doesn't track well with the resources used for combat encounters. One thing you might consider is providing characters the option to use combat-centered resources during other encounters. Let them take hp damage from a failed social roll to mitigate its negative effects, or use action surge to immediately make another skill check before the consequences of the first one kick in. That's a pretty sizable step towards homebrew though.

[Man_Over_Game]

The best way to make an encounter take up resources is to raise the stakes on it. Most social encounters are pretty low stakes, even if they're framed as being high stakes because no one accepts "Party TPK" or similar level consequences from botched social rolls or decisions. Whereas in theory any combat encounter could kill the party, or cause enough damage that they die later.

If you can up the stakes of your other encounters to have serious consequences for failure the players will choose to spend resources of their own volition. At that point you just have to provide the opportunity to spend those resources.

The hard part is that gold is going to be the most general resource you can sap, which unfortunately doesn't track well with the resources used for combat encounters. One thing you might consider is providing characters the option to use combat-centered resources during other encounters. Let them take hp damage from a failed social roll to mitigate its negative effects, or use action surge to immediately make another skill check before the consequences of the first one kick in. That's a pretty sizable step towards homebrew though.

I have been enraptured with a concept that works in that way, where you use a resource to compensate for a skill's difficulty, but in doing so basically guarantees your success before the roll is made. Theoretically, this would use something like Hit Dice. (which are instead a representation of your "luck"). So if the DC is 30, your roll total is 13, you can choose to spend enough Hit Die to total to 30 or opt to fail.

Unfortunately, it would mean remodeling some major elements of 5e (even if that mostly means replacing the otherwise unmentionable Hit Dice system), but I think it'd go a very long way towards making skills a mechanical, considerate, and intractable standalone system that puts it on the same level of consistency as combat.

It also fits the concept that we see in our fantasy heroes. It is not a question as to whether Kratos is able to throw a chunk of a mountain at you, it's a matter of how taxing it is on him. He never has to *guess* if it's possible to throw that chunk of rock, because that'd be silly for him to guess. If you had to guess how much you could lift, should you ever be surprised? No! That'd be stupid.

You should know what your capabilities are before they become relevant. I get the D20 represents chaos that can cause anyone to fail in the middle of combat, but that doesn't exactly describe the standard scenario for creating a forgery or jugging some toy dolls, does it? Compared to the number of skill checks made out-of-combat vs. in-combat, there is a weirdly disproportionate level of chaos being used out of combat.

Consider the fact that creating a very difficult healing salve is mostly dependent on experience and knowledge, with very little chaos involved in its success or not, so how are you supposed to fail? And if you're not supposed to fail, when do you make the roll?

Nah, screw all that. Assume you're always successful on all checks, but doing more difficult things, or things you're not experienced in, results in being more taxing on you until you're starting to make some really dumb mistakes later in the day. All represented by random rolls compensated for with static player bonuses and a resource spend to compensate for failure that you earn per level. It's something I've been working on to make into a system one day, but it started as a cool alternative to the 5e skill system.

[EggKookoo]

Let them take hp damage from a failed social roll to mitigate its negative effects, or use action surge to immediately make another skill check before the consequences of the first one kick in. That's a pretty sizable step towards homebrew though.

I like the Action Surge idea. I'd love to figure out a way to rationalize the spending of superiority dice, bardic inspiration, sorcery points, and so forth to help succeed with general checks (social, exploration, etc.).

I suppose I could just... do it.

[NRSASD]

In this context, no. At least not directly. I'm looking for a way to eat up the kinds of things combat would eat up. Hit points, spell slots, specialty dice, consumables, etc. Or at least for there to be a chance to eat these things up. It wouldn't have to be guaranteed, any more than a fight is guaranteed to do the same.

There are lots of complaints about how D&D isn't good at non-combat stuff. I don't disagree, but given the existing encounter/rest economy, it seems to me that the problem isn't with task resolution so much as resource depletion. If the party is at a banquet making deception, persuasion, and performance checks all night long, they come out of it at the end just as "rested" as when they went in. Sure, there could be a reason to cast some spells, but spellcasting usually isn't subtle and will change the feel of the encounter. And what about non-spellcasters?

PCs have lots of resources to spend, but really just for fighting things. I'm not looking for new "social resources" so much as ways to tie existing resource expenditure into non-combat activities. Hence the drinking game.

I have an upcoming session where my players are going to be the guests of honor at a dinner party. I do have some hack & slash planned.

The host's guards have all been replaced by magically disguised enemy gang members and are waiting for the signal to strike.

But I'm hoping to have the dinner party be more than just the PCs standing around holding drinks and saying "right, quite" to each other. I do have intrigue plots in mind for the other guests but right now it's mostly along the lines of "make an insight check -- ok, this guy really does know what happened down a the docks the other night." Useful, but really just informational. I want the PCs to feel tempted to risk some resources, almost like they've been through combat, before the spoiled stuff above happens.

Some idiot noble demands a duel from the party. Sure, they can splatter him effortlessly. But how do they win without killing him? Demonstrating exceptional skill or panache may make them friends with any number of interesting people.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Doesn't that kinda remove a big incentive to play smart? Like the Rogue and the Barbarian manage to steal the guards' keys, and then break the group out of the jail tower with no one noticing, it's rewarded less than being seen and hit by the guards?

As always, Unoriginal, you have a good point. Let me clarify, I'm mostly looking at encounters not specifically related to the adventure goal. In your example, if taking the keys an objective in the adventure, then grant full XP for completion regardless of resources.


Ok. What do you mean by "too easy" ... the luck of dice rolls or the enemy had no chance to attack?

If the party smokes the fight using almost no or no expendable resources given average die rolls on both sides, it was too easy. Maybe it's also too easy if the enemy gets no shot, or fails to make a significant hit.


Wait, what? Where did you get this info from. I was under the impression that the 6-8 encounters included spell resources. (and particularly with resistance and immunities sprinkled all over the game even in tier 1.

I made that assumption, too. I only concluded this was not the case only after playing lots of combats in 5e.

Think about it. If you had to design a system, how would you account for the spells contribution to DPR? I don't think you can. So instead, you must design a system that works without them.

Consider a party of 4. Calculate individual each of their DPR using cantrip(like) resources as usual (chance to hit times damage done with a hit), assume all other d20 rolls are 10s or 11s. Compare the party DPR to the HP of their enemies in an encounter. You should see that the party's DPR overwhelms the HP pool of the enemy and the fight ending or being clearly decided in three our four rounds. Consider a CR1 orc vs 4x1st level party. Orc may or may not get a hit depending on both it's initiative and attacks rolls, but the party WILL be able to use all four of their turns to drop the orc in 1-2 rounds. Add a spell slot and its over in one round or less (almost) certainly.

Consider your gameplay experiences. The outcome of almost every single (non-climactic) fight is known to you (as DM knowing both monster and party HP) by the end of the third round. Not saying the fight is over, but the outcome is nearly certain. And your fights that were decided before the third round likely involved expending spell slots or similar long rest recovery abilities.

I agree resistance and immunity mess with this bigly! But the CR based encounter building system is nowhere near as precise as many assume it to be. I believe we make a mistake when we assume it is more precises than general.

[Kyutaru]

If the party smokes the fight using almost no or no expendable resources given average die rolls on both sides. Maybe also when the enemy gets no shot, of fails to make a significant hit.
Speedrunners and optimizers everywhere are crying.

[KorvinStarmast]

5e was designed in a way that makes a party of 4-5 facing 6-8 Easy-to-Medium encounters will likely be out of ressources and in need of a long rest due to sheer attrition.

The 6-8 encounters are the ressource drain. I agree, but the long rest abilties and spells are part of the drained resources. Kurt was saying they are irrelevant, which makes zero sense to me.

I made that assumption, too. I only concluded this was not the case only after playing lots of combats in 5e.

Think about it. If you had to design a system, how would you account for the spells contribution to DPR? I don't think you can. So instead, you must design a system that works without them. I believe that you man want to rethink how you calculate both sides of the equation. HP loss and party members who fall and influence the action economy make a difference. Also, one fear spell that sends two party members fleeing, or a series of failed saves versus a charm (like Harpy at low level) tip over any "balance" consideration in a hurry.

You should see that the party's DPR overwhelms the HP pool of the enemy The monsters are bags of HP. Your math might fit at very high tiers of play, but in Tier 1 combat and PC output is so swingy in actual fights that no, I don't see that at all.


The outcome of almost every single (non-climactic) fight is known to you (as DM knowing both monster and party HP) by the end of the third round.
Usually, but my PCs have usually burned a few short and long rest spells already by then. My players never start a fight and for three rounds use nothing but cantrips an no short/long rest abilities at all. Never. Unless they are all out of all other abilities.


But the CR based encounter building system is nowhere near as precise as many assume it to be. On that I agree with you. But I do find it to be a useful baseline to work from.

[BRC]

I pretty much agree. The more I internalize that encounters exist to drain resources, the more I see the connection between resources, CR, and XP. You get XP not because you had to make attack rolls to kill the monster, but because the fight with the monster risked some of your resources.

Consequently, using a skill check to get past a monster shouldn't award XP -- except that feels unfair, at least to me. This is why I would love to tie some kind of resource risk to skill checks. The more I think about it, the more I think this is a large element of the "D&D doesn't do non-combat well."

Instead of Hit Dice, 5e should have had some kind of general-purpose Resource Dice that can be applied to any roll you make, including restoring HP during a short rest. You can choose to boost your attack rolls, damage rolls, checks and/or saves, but you impair how well you can recover between fights.

There are plenty of systems that have a sort of Meta-Resource representing Luck, which can be used, either directly or otherwise, as a form of HP, as well as a way to boost rolls. So a tough non-combat encounter, where you need to spend this resources to boost yourself to success, drains it in the same way as a tough combat encounter, where you spend it to mitigate damage.

D&D 5e isn't really set up to use this. Hit Die are the only universal resource, and depending on your playstyle, players often have more than enough to burn, so you'd want to change things up a little.

[EggKookoo]

If you're going down that route you may want to consider turning the banquet into a full on skill challenge with point tallies for success/fails affecting the future combat.

Matt Colville had a good video on them that I felt was pretty informative and may give you some ideas here (https://youtu.be/GvOeqDpkBm8)

Finally had time to watch this. It's an interesting approach. I've used chained checks before (X successes before Y failures) but usually they've been more self-contained. I like the idea of keeping a kind of score that affects some eventual climax.

[stoutstien]

I don't know. I guess I find the whole premise of judging encounters based on resources spent to limiting. As a DM I would feel like I'm railroading the party through the critical path while actively discouraging them from interacting with the game other than some dice rolls. As a player and knowing that encounters are primarily designed to drain my resources I'd feel it would be pointless to approach encounters looking for genuine clever ways of overcoming them because in the DMs eyes I'm not circumventing the encounter as much as bypassing resource gates.

Don't get me wrong resource management is an important pacing tool but it only works that way if the players actually have some say in how they spend their resources. encounters pose the challenge or question and player agency takes it from there. As a DM, if I feel the only way I can challenge my party is by draining resources from them before X occurs I would consider it a failure on my part.

[Amnestic]

I don't know. I guess I find the whole premise of judging encounters based on resources spent to limiting. As a DM I would feel like I'm railroading the party through the critical path while actively discouraging them from interacting with the game other than some dice rolls. As a player and knowing that encounters are primarily designed to drain my resources I'd feel it would be pointless to approach encounters looking for genuine clever ways of overcoming them because in the DMs eyes I'm not circumventing the encounter as much as bypassing resource gates.

Don't get me wrong resource management is an important pacing tool but it only works that way if the players actually have some say in how they spend their resources. encounters pose the challenge or question and player agency takes it from there. As a DM, if I feel the only way I can challenge my party is by draining resources from them before X occurs I would consider it a failure on my part.

I'm not sure if I necessarily approach it as "these encounters exist to drain resources", but if the narrative of the story won't take them into many combat encounters then options need to be looked at to a) avoid them going supernova 5 minute adventuring day and b) making the short rest (or no-rest, for rogues) classes feeling less-good.

There's a lot of talk about 5e's approach to "what a day should look like" before people run dry, the oft-cited 6-8 easy-medium encounters that no one runs with outside of dungeon crawls, and how you could/should sprinkle in social or exploration challenges to beef up the 'Encounter' number.

Without knowing the exact specifics of what the OP's situation what I've garnered from their description is that the party going to be going into this banquet fully rested and at 100%. In that same evening they're probably going to have one or two combat encounters with some guards. There's definitely alternate ways to approach making said encounter more potent to accommodate them being at 100% - more guards (action economy goes wheeee), bigger stats (slugfest?) or the like, but having them be drained a bit from the early activities sets a different tone to the encounter - from a player perspective, there's a lot of confidence into going at an encounter with everything available, but it feels different when you're maybe down 30% HP, 4 spell slots and a short rest ability each.

I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to find new ways of putting those 'drains' into the social/exploration pillars to help set different tones for the combat encounters. There's a tension that is I think less prominent when you're at 100% (as it should be). Not to say you should do it all the time, variety is the spice of life after all.

[Kurt Kurageous]

I agree, but the long rest abilities and spells are part of the drained resources. Kurt was saying they are irrelevant, which makes zero sense to me. My players never start a fight and for three rounds use nothing but cantrips an no short/long rest abilities at all. Never. Unless they are all out of all other abilities.

True all, except about what I was saying.

I blame our lack of understanding here entirely on my failure to clearly express what I meant. You responded in a perfectly reasonable manner to what I said. I too have never seen a party do all of their fights using only cantip kinda stuff, only occasionally one fight that went that way.

I'm not talking about that. It's not what I meant. So here's my second attempt.

I'm talking about from a game designer perspective where you have to publish something to those running the game about how to build encounters, how players earn XP, and how much they should earn per fight, per day to progress the way you the game designer intends.

To do this, you have to make assumptions. I think that WotC made the 'cantrip only' assumption to come up with their guidelines of 6-8 encounters before reset. They did this because there was no other way given spells. I'm definitely not saying that anyone actually plays that way.

This unwritten assumption is, after a day of 6-8 medium encounters, the party lives, given a party of 4-5 characters making average dice rolls and perhaps good knowledge of their opponent's capabilities.

And all of that is not how we play the game. Its just how the game was designed.

[Unoriginal]

True all, except about what I was saying.

I blame our lack of understanding here entirely on my failure to clearly express what I meant. You responded in a perfectly reasonable manner to what I said. I too have never seen a party do all of their fights using only cantip kinda stuff, only occasionally one fight that went that way.

I'm not talking about that. It's not what I meant. So here's my second attempt.

I'm talking about from a game designer perspective where you have to publish something to those running the game about how to build encounters, how players earn XP, and how much they should earn per fight, per day to progress the way you the game designer intends.

To do this, you have to make assumptions. I think that WotC made the 'cantrip only' assumption to come up with their guidelines of 6-8 encounters before reset. They did this because there was no other way given spells. I'm definitely not saying that anyone actually plays that way.

This unwritten assumption is revealed in how easy a day of 6-8 medium encounters is for a party of 4-5 characters with perfect knowledge on ther opponent's capabilities and making average dice rolls.

And all of that is not how we play the game. Its just how the game was designed.

Except WotC never did a "cantrip only" assumption.

The assumption is, again, by the end of 6th to 8th Medium encounter, or the 3rd to 4th Deadly one, that everyone is out of ressources and in need of a rest.



They did this because there was no other way given spells.

This is entirely incorrect. WotC literally published the "average expectations for spells for each level" data they used, in the DMG.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Except WotC never did a "cantrip only" assumption.
The assumption is, again, by the end of 6th to 8th Medium encounter, or the 3rd to 4th Deadly one, that everyone is out of ressources and in need of a rest.
This is entirely incorrect. WotC literally published the "average expectations for spells for each level" data they used, in the DMG.

That makes me entirely wrong in the thread. And I'm ok with that. It won't be for the last time.

[EggKookoo]

I don't know. I guess I find the whole premise of judging encounters based on resources spent to limiting.

I'm forced to agree, even if I don't want to. That's why I feel like it's unfair to not reward PCs/players for using skill checks to avoid combat encounters. Traditionally, I award the XP that the avoided encounter would have awarded. It doesn't mess with the encounter economy if it's not happening all the time.

At the same time, I think if D&D had been designed to have a way to drain resources outside of combat in a regular kind of way, it might help with blending different encounter types.


Without knowing the exact specifics of what the OP's situation what I've garnered from their description is that the party going to be going into this banquet fully rested and at 100%. In that same evening they're probably going to have one or two combat encounters with some guards. There's definitely alternate ways to approach making said encounter more potent to accommodate them being at 100% - more guards (action economy goes wheeee), bigger stats (slugfest?) or the like, but having them be drained a bit from the early activities sets a different tone to the encounter - from a player perspective, there's a lot of confidence into going at an encounter with everything available, but it feels different when you're maybe down 30% HP, 4 spell slots and a short rest ability each.

I think for practicality's sake, I'm going to try to leverage the skill check process championed by Colville. I realized that the PCs have the opportunity to win over some of the other noble guests (who have some combat capability of their own). If I can convert that kind of thing into a progressive skill check, I can give the PCs allies to help them if/when the guard fight breaks out. Failures would manifest as the nobles being less than impressed with the PCs and ducking out of the party early. So basically going for potential bonuses in the form of allies, rather than penalties in the form of burnt resources. It also lets me upscale the guard fight a bit as well.

The question now is how much should I hint to the players that the nobles are worth keeping around? Maybe they like to show off their skills as well...

[stoutstien]

Something to keep in mind with progressive skill checks is make sure that you double check your math. Unless the player in question has put a lot of focus into being good at certain skills more checks almost always lead to more failure even with moderate DCs.
my personal rule is for every check involve in a social context also have some way for the players to avoid it with a combination of context clues, information gathering, and problem solving.
The Honorable guard may not take a bribe under any circumstance they might respond to a appeal to duty without question.

[KorvinStarmast]

So here's my second attempt. Many thanks for your patient attempt to make sure we understand one another. I think Unoriginal covered the rest of it. Cheers! :smallsmile: