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Grod_The_Giant
2020-08-17, 12:42 PM
Many balance complaints can be boiled down to one source: rests, and how classes rely on them. Warlock players struggling with not having enough spells? The Paladin smiting everything to death in a single round? Surprisingly often, the problem is not with the classes themselves but with the underlying assumptions of the system.

The game was written with the assumption that one “adventuring day”—the time between the party waking up and setting out into the world and their next long rest—would consist of six to eight encounters, broken up by two short rests.

After two or three encounters, classes that depend on short rests, such as the Monk and Warlock, could expect to be out of resources, while those that depend on long rests, such as the Barbarian and Wizard, would still be going strong. On the other hand, as the day wears on and long rest classes run begin to run low on power, the short rest classes are still refreshing their resources and fighting at full effectiveness.

That’s the balance…on paper. In practice, many games will never approach the expected number of encounters. Short adventuring days with just one or two combat encounters are common, and significantly favor classes like the Paladin who can burn through their full daily allotment of resources very quickly.

What’s the solution? Well, there are basically two approaches: change the way rests work, or change the way classes work.


Rest Changes: Safe Havens
One easy way to artificially extend the adventuring day is to declare that characters can only benefit from long rests while in a Safe Haven—a place of peace and support where they are unlikely to be threatened. Generally, this means a friendly town, or at least an inn.

Such a rule extends the “adventuring day” to cover an entire journey. The day begins when you leave your home base, continues through your trials and dangers, and ends when you return to safety. It doesn’t matter how long the adventure takes within the context of the setting—whether spending a few hours of fighting goblins in a cave or a few weeks travelling through the wilderness, the party still face the same level of attrition.

"All day" spells and abilities, such as the Darkvision or Mage Armor spells, should be allowed to last until the character completes a long rest.

The advantage of this rule is simplicity—the change is almost entirely conceptual. It fits well with classic adventure types such as the huge dungeon crawl or wilderness exploration, where regular returns to town to sell loot and buy more supplies are part and parcel of the experience. It also makes as much sense to the characters as to the players. Of course you can’t fully heal with a few hours of sleep in a deep forest or while barricaded in a single room deep in a dungeon; you’re short on supplies and comfort and need to be ready to confront danger at a moment’s notice.

The downside is that it doesn’t work for all game types. While Safe Havens work well for campaigns where the party frequently has to travel into dangerous situations, they make less sense in urban or intrigue-based games. If you need to sleep in an inn to recover, well, you’re in a city—there are dozens of options, and even the most distant is unlikely to take more than an hour or two to reach.

This can be partially mitigated by making the concept of Safe Havens more abstract. If long rests can only happen at the end of one “episode” of the campaign, no matter what happens during the individual session or sessions, the GM’s job becomes much easier. It doesn’t matter how often the players retreat to rest; they’ll still have to deal with the same encounters with the same pools of resources. But doing so can offend the sensibilities of players, whether they’re bothered by the abstract nature of the rule or by their lack of control over rests.


Class Changes
The alternative to changing rests is to change classes—to convert long-rest-based resources like spell slots to short-rest-based ones, or to extend short-rest-based resources to cover an entire adventuring day. Doing so can be finicky, but does ensure that everyone is on a level playing field.

Long Rest to Short Rest
Going from long rests to short rests is mostly a matter of reduction—abilities should be used about one-third as often as originally written.
In terms of spellcasting, there are two options for handling this:

You can convert all spellcasters to use Pact Magic mechanics, with two or three spell slots of their highest available level per short rest.
You can use the Spell Points variant in the Dungeon Master’s Guide (page 288-289) and simply reduce spell points by a third, giving you a progression something like so:




Level
Spell Points
Max Spell Level


1st
2
--


2nd
4
1st


3rd
5
2nd


4th
6
2nd


5th
9
3rd


6th
11
3rd


7th
13
4th


8th
15
4th


9th
19
5th


10th
21
5th


11th
24
6th


12th
24
6th


13th
28
7th


14th
28
7th


15th
31
8th


16th
31
8th


17th
36
9th


18th
38
9th


19th
41
9th


20th
44
9th



In terms of other abilities…

Those that can normally be used a small number of times per long rest—two times, three times, a number of times equal to an Ability Score modifier—should reduce to being used once per short rest.
Those that can normally only be used once per long rest still require you to complete a long rest before using them again.


In addition, a few classes will require additional tweaking to function under the new rules, or at least to function elegantly.



Class
Class Features


Alchemist (GGtG)
Use one of the above spellcaster adaptation rules for the Alchemist’s casting. Once brewed, extracts are viable for three hours.


Artificer
You may infuse one item at the end of a short rest.


Barbarian
You may Rage once per short rest. Beginning at 11th level, you may Rage twice per short rest.


Bard
No special adaptation needed.


Cleric
No special adaptation needed.


Druid
No special adaptation needed.


Fighter
You may use your Indomitable feature once per short rests beginning at 13th level.


Magewright (GGtG)
No special adaptation needed.


Monk
No special adaptation needed.


Paladin
Your Lay on Hands pool only contains a number of hit points equal to your Paladin level + your Charisma modifier, but is replenished by taking a short rest.


Ranger
No special adaptation needed.


Rogue
No special adaptation needed.


Sorcerer
You gain a number of sorcery points per short rest equal to one-third your level, rounded up.


Steelsworn (GGtG)
No special adaptation needed.


Summoner (GGtG)
No special adaptation needed.


Warlock
No special adaptation needed.


Wildling (GGtG)
You may use Primal Surge once per short rest. Beginning at 11th level, you may Surge twice per short rest.


Wizard
No special adaptation needed.



Short Rest to Long Rest
Conversely, changing a short rest dependent class to a long rest one is a process of addition—abilities should be usable three times as often as written. That one rule will work for almost all character types, but there are a few classes that merit extra thought.



Class
Class Features


Artificer
No special adaptation needed.


Barbarian
No special adaptation needed.


Bard
At 5th level, Font of Inspiration grants you an additional two uses of your Bardic Inspiration per point of your Charisma modifier, for a total number of dice equal to three times your modifier (minimum 3).


Cleric
Channel Divinity may be used a number of times per long rest equal to your Wisdom modifier +1.


Druid
Wild Shape may be used a number of times per long rest equal to your Wisdom modifier +1.


Fighter
Action Surge can only be used once per turn.


Magewright (GGtG)
No special adaptation needed.


Monk
No special adaptation needed.


Paladin
Channel Divinity may be used a number of times per long rest equal to your Charisma modifier +1.


Ranger
No special adaptation needed.


Rogue
The Rogue is almost entirely rest-independent. As such, it suffers from similar issues to short rest based classes when the game features very few encounters per day. Thus, beginning at 2nd level, they gain the ability to double their sneak attack damage dice a number of times per long rest equal to their Dexterity modifier +1.


Sorcerer
No special adaptation needed.


Steelsworn (GGtG)
No special adaptation needed.


Summoner (GGtG)
No special adaptation needed.


Warlock
The Warlock can have their Pact Magic slots tripled as described above, or they can use normal spellcasting rules and progression.


Wildling (GGtG)
No special adaptation needed.


Wizard
No special adaptation needed.


Alchemist (GGtG)
No special adaptation needed.



So... thoughts? Things I've missed? Points of particular friction that need closer examination?

firelistener
2020-08-17, 02:12 PM
I'll preface this by saying I fundamentally disagree that the games with few encounters should change 5e. IMO, 5e is great for dungeon-delving and monster-fighting, but not the one-size-fits-all system people act like it is. If you want very little combat, it's probably way less work to use an entirely different system that is balanced around more social aspects and skills than attack rolls and spell like D&D 5e is. That said, I'll try to suspend my opinion for that in everything below.

I agree with the weaknesses you pointed out in the Safe Havens strategy. I wouldn't use it in my games simply because it removes some player options unless the DM really works hard to make the world with such limiting rest options feel organic. Sounds like a recipe for stressed DM and unhappy players where I currently don't have issues.

Of the two conversions, I think the long rest to short rest one is probably better, but you'd expect to raise CR for encounters or add legendary actions a lot. Warlock spells and other short rest resources are limited so you can't rely on them in longer battles. If you don't buff the enemies, you'd peobably see the PCs stomp on every encounter because everyone can nova super hard AND way longer in a single fight. The short rest to long rest option sounds really limiting for the DM. If the players can't recover at all without short rests, then you'd easily overwhelm them with an extra encounter or two, especially if they get used to blowing all their resources quickly. The other option at least still lets you have more fights in a day since the PCs can recover incrementally throughout the day with short rests.

CheddarChampion
2020-08-17, 02:29 PM
Personally I just change how long rest take to match the scale of the quest, I recommend that to anyone.

For this post, the idea is to shift rest reliance around, yeah? Not change how good features are - just change how much/often they are doled out?

How many short rests per long rest do you have in mind? If we go by 2 short rests per long rest, some abilities get much more uses and some get much less.

Lat on Hands, for example, is good because you can spend a single action for really high healing. Reducing both the max pool and how much a paladin gets per quest is a pretty big nerf to it IMO.

Edit: I was too hasty to reply. This looks more or less fine to me but I still think the long->short version for Lay on Hands should be 3 x paladin level, regain once per short rest, usable only twice per long rest.

Other considerations:

Short->long bardic inspiration gives anywhere from 2x to 5x the inspiration. I think it should just be "three times per each point of charisma modifier." Clunky wording, yes, but I prefer that to inconsistency.

Paladin's CD should be based on Cha not Wis?

Are you trying to get rid of the verbiage of long rest when having a game based on short rests and vice versa?
Short rests might still be used to recover in a long rest game, long rests will still be used to regain HD in a short rest game, yeah?
Fighter's Indomitable could stay at 1/LR at level 9, for example.

king_steve
2020-08-17, 03:25 PM
You can use the Spell Points variant in the Dungeon Master’s Guide (page 288-289) and simply reduce spell points by a third, giving you a progression something like so:




I'm wondering if there should be a max usages per level chart as well? Otherwise wouldn't converting to Spell Points (Variant) be a boon to most spell casters by letting them use potentially cast their spells at max level more often?

Grod_The_Giant
2020-08-19, 04:17 PM
I agree with the weaknesses you pointed out in the Safe Havens strategy. I wouldn't use it in my games simply because it removes some player options unless the DM really works hard to make the world with such limiting rest options feel organic. Sounds like a recipe for stressed DM and unhappy players where I currently don't have issues.
"You can only Long Rest in a town" takes about ten seconds to say and no longer to understand. Needing a safe place to recover is intuitive and fairly clear; I'm really not sure what kind of extra work you'd have to put into the world. And while it limits player options, to an extent, it doesn't limit player agency--their ability to rest is still within their control.


Of the two conversions, I think the long rest to short rest one is probably better, but you'd expect to raise CR for encounters or add legendary actions a lot. Warlock spells and other short rest resources are limited so you can't rely on them in longer battles. If you don't buff the enemies, you'd peobably see the PCs stomp on every encounter because everyone can nova super hard AND way longer in a single fight. The short rest to long rest option sounds really limiting for the DM. If the players can't recover at all without short rests, then you'd easily overwhelm them with an extra encounter or two, especially if they get used to blowing all their resources quickly. The other option at least still lets you have more fights in a day since the PCs can recover incrementally throughout the day with short rests.
I mean, no matter which you pick short days are going to be easier and long days are going to be harder, and going nova will let you punch way above your CR-- the long<->short rest conversions aren't intended to do anything about that. The idea is to make sure that if you are running short-but-deadly adventuring days, classes like the Fighter and Warlock don't get the short end of the stick compared to their compatriots.


Edit: I was too hasty to reply. This looks more or less fine to me but I still think the long->short version for Lay on Hands should be 3 x paladin level, regain once per short rest, usable only twice per long rest.
I feel like part of the fun of Lay on Hands is that it lets you dole out the exact amount of healing you need--I don't want to take that away.


Short->long bardic inspiration gives anywhere from 2x to 5x the inspiration. I think it should just be "three times per each point of charisma modifier." Clunky wording, yes, but I prefer that to inconsistency.
Ehh... fair.


Paladin's CD should be based on Cha not Wis?
Typo, thank you.


Are you trying to get rid of the verbiage of long rest when having a game based on short rests and vice versa?
Short rests might still be used to recover in a long rest game, long rests will still be used to regain HD in a short rest game, yeah?
Fighter's Indomitable could stay at 1/LR at level 9, for example.
I was, but I probably went too far. You're right about, say, Indomitable.


I'm wondering if there should be a max usages per level chart as well? Otherwise wouldn't converting to Spell Points (Variant) be a boon to most spell casters by letting them use potentially cast their spells at max level more often?
The extra versatility is a boost to spellcasters, sure, but it's not as bad as you think--you can only use a max-level slot two or three times per short rest before burning through all your points, just like the Warlock does.

Man_Over_Game
2020-08-19, 04:33 PM
I like the Safe Haven option a lot, but I don't think you need to isolate it to just cities. You could just make the Long Rest require so much time of safety that the only way you'd get the rest is if you were reasonably in a safe zone.

For example, I like to make Short Rests take 6 hours (sleeping in the wilderness, preparation before a big fight, etc), and Long Rests take 32 (Get to town and spend a day recuperating).

All I really care about is making sure Long Rests are things that are chosen, not something that the players generally get accidentally. That way, when the players need resources back, they just decide "we're going to take a break from adventuring to heal", and so that could mean an inn, or it could mean that they made a temporary camp with rotating guard duties while everyone focuses on getting food in their bellies, analyze clues gathered, patch up wounds, tend to their animals, get a friggin' bath, etc. It feels pretty natural and not very gamist.

It also adds impact to the word "Long" in "Long Rest".

Short Rest, as-is, doesn't feel like a real "rest". It feels like a...lunch. A break. It feels like you only ever use it when it's to regenerate your mechanics, while sleeping for 8 hours, every night, is something that will always happen. Just like spending a day in town to gather supplies and information. Now both Short and Long Rests feel like rests, with one...being longer and more potent than the other.

KyleG
2020-08-20, 04:13 AM
Unless you are in a dungeon 6 resource consuming encounters seems unlikely. I mean if you are accosted by bandits, beasts and whatnot 6 times travelling the highways between cities seems extreme.

I think when i finally run a campaign that i might just make a sleep/night the only option for rest. Night 1 = Short rest, Night 2 = Short rest, Night 3 = Long rest. Hopefully this only affects recharge at dawn/dusk weapons....work in progress perhaps.

Azuresun
2020-08-20, 04:59 AM
Many balance complaints can be boiled down to one source: rests, and how classes rely on them. Warlock players struggling with not having enough spells? The Paladin smiting everything to death in a single round? Surprisingly often, the problem is not with the classes themselves but with the underlying assumptions of the system.

The game was written with the assumption that one “adventuring day”—the time between the party waking up and setting out into the world and their next long rest—would consist of six to eight encounters, broken up by two short rests.


The DMG says 6-8 medium encounters, and then says in the very next sentence that if the encounters are easier you can have more of them and if they're harder you can have fewer.

Grod_The_Giant
2020-08-20, 06:40 AM
The DMG says 6-8 medium encounters, and then says in the very next sentence that if the encounters are easier you can have more of them and if they're harder you can have fewer.
Yes, you can... And interparty balance will suffer, because some can throw a full day's worth of resources into a single encounter and others can't. Hence the rules for converting classes to run on the same rest paradigm.