OOTS #1211 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Schroeswald]

Minrah continues to be amazing, and we can finally get people to shut up about Durkon not mentioning TDO not surviving!

i know I know, I’m just trying to be an optimist here

[Quebbster]

Nice big squares. Also cool to see the statue do something.

[ChaosOS]

I think Durkon might feel dwarfed by Maxrah's demands

[Grey_Wolf_c]

i know I know, I’m just trying to be an optimist here

... I was about to say.

I do like that Durkon had a reason to not bring it up, though. A good reason, too.

Rich: the number of pinned comic threads is maybe starting to get a bit too many?

Grey Wolf

[Verappo]

To be fair, that is a lot of exposition to relay all at once. Had I been Redcloak I'd have tuned out at the mention of color coded deities :smallbiggrin:

[Bartok]

Thank you Minrah for pointing out how vital that information would have been. That's been bugging me for pages.

[EmperorSarda]

Durkon can't be faulted about not knowing about Redcloak's sunken cost fallacy. Or that he's just as nuts as the gods willing to burn everything to start over.

[understatement]

C'mon, Durkon, we've been telling you to say it for ages!

[Fyraltari]

I know this won’t stop people but: yet another proof the Gate is not inside the statue.

Why does Minrah has Negative Energy Resistance? Is it the hammer? Or did Durkon cast Mass Death Ward? How long does that last, if he did?

Also I’m surprised the ruckuss hasn’t attracted Xykon yet.

[dancrilis]

... staying around seems like a very bad plan, far worse then trying to talk to Redcloak in the first place.

[understatement]

I know this won’t stop people but: yet another proof the Gate is not inside the statue.

Why does Minrah has Negative Energy Resistance? Is it the hammer? Or did Durkon cast Mass Death Ward? How long does that last, if he did?

Also I’m surprised the ruckuss hasn’t attracted Xykon yet.

Probably Mass Death Ward, and it lasts aminute/level.

If Xykon didn't notice the huge dwarf, he'd definitely notice the...animated Kraagor?

[Dragonus45]

Looks like things are escalating fast, less escape plan and more ill thought out 2v1. That poor fool Redcloak though. He really will cut out his own metaphorical eye to spite his face.

[Gray Mage]

Very telling that RC thinks the world being undone is about him losing and no thought is given to all the other goblinoids that would be unmade with him.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Why does Minrah has Negative Energy Resistance? Is it the hammer? Or did Durkon cast Mass Death Ward? How long does that last, if he did?

I'm guessing Durkon is using the flawed backdoor'ed Mass Death Ward spell he crafted with help from Malack. Now that the latter is dust, it is a lot less dangerous to use. If duration is similar to the non-mass one, it should last about a quarter of an hour.

Grey Wolf

[EmperorSarda]

If Xykon didn't notice the huge dwarf, he'd definitely notice the...animated Kraagor?

Even if Xykon is inside a tent, they are probably making enough noise to warrant his curiosity.

Also, it'd be a shame if Xykon heard Redcloak saying any of this. Xykon doesn't want to blow up the world. He just wants to rule it.

[Hiro Quester]

“A bad plan we planned for”. Awesome.

[Fyraltari]

Probably Mass Death Ward, and it lasts aminute/level.
But then I wonder, did he cast it on the whole order? Or could he cast it back in cloudform?


If Xykon didn't notice the huge dwarf, he'd definitely notice the...animated Kraagor?
Look, even with teleportation spells, it’d take him at least a round to get anywhere, no? I was expecting him to intervene because of the sudden paradox crashing in the village.

Very telling that RC thinks the world being undone is about him losing and no thought is given to all the other goblinoids that would be unmade with him.
Yup.

[SlashDash]

I know this won’t stop people but: yet another proof the Gate is not inside the statue.

Actually I wouldn't be surprised if the fact that Redcloak moved the statue will be a plot point later on.



Why does Minrah has Negative Energy Resistance? Is it the hammer? Or did Durkon cast Mass Death Ward? How long does that last, if he did?

Most likely Durkon cast the mass version he learned in the 5th book.
Considering nobody from Tarquin's gang is likely to show up (as far as Durkon knows), he should be casting that all the time.
They know Xykon has a thing for energy drain.



Also I’m surprised the ruckuss hasn’t attracted Xykon yet.
I'm guessing he's either monitoring Redcloak to see if there's a hint that Redcloak will turn on him or possibly that he's just elsewhere (like his fortress) or just watches his Tivo.

[littlebum2002]

It's really hard to take the statue seriously as a threat with that tongue hanging out.

[hroþila]

It would be totally in character for Xykon to have noticed Durkon from the start and just pretend he hadn't to see what Redcloak did. Or to enjoy the show, in which case he'd only intervene if Minrah and Durkon came close to defeating Redcloak.

[Fyraltari]

Actually I wouldn't be surprised if the fact that Redcloak moved the statue will be a plot point later on.
The Gates can’t be moved without breaking them. Soon had to commission a castle big enough to reach the Rift above Azure City.

[Psyren]

I do like that Durkon had a reason to not bring it up, though. A good reason, too.


I don't see what was good about his reason at all - especially since they literally arrived at the same conclusion Redcloak did before Thor explained that wouldn't work. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html) How could Durkon expect Redcloak to also not arrive at that conclusion/see it as a viable alternative absent a theological explanation?


Maxrah

Is this going to be a thing? I feel like this is going to be a thing.

[Rinazina]

I think Durkon might feel dwarfed by Maxrah's demands

oh, good crack joke, I though them exhausted here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0355.html)

[KorvinStarmast]

I love Minrah!


This may have been a bad plan but it's a bad plan we planned for :smallbiggrin: Nice one Giant, and very much in Minrah's voice.

I also like Redcloak's decision to use Animate Object. Good tactics!

Also, Redcloak has a fair point
"According to a random dwarf who I have no reason to believe"
Giant does a good job in not having his characters possess narrative omniscience. If we put ourselves into Redcloak's shoes, it is a valid point of view for him to take:
"Why should I believe you? Why should I trust you?"

We, the audience, with a bit more 'narrative omniscience' to hand so that we can see why he should trust Durkon. But beyond his own obsession with The Plan, the grounds for a trust relationship have not been established. That takes time to grow and nurture when the previous relationship was based on lethal animosity. And to get him to change his dedication to The Plan, it's gonna take a lot more than one dwarf's word ... a dwarf he doesn't trust (yet).

Durkon's job/task from Thor boils down to this: get Redcloak to trust you.

(The rest of the dialogue is a rehash of points already covered on the forum in the past five strips, but I am glad to see most of us were pretty much on the same page with the Giant)

And of course, Kraagor's pedastel is now missing its statue. I wonder what little twist will arise with that, beyond the statue keeping up its attack on the only other dwarves at the North Pole. (Slight irony there, I think).

[Crœsos]

To be fair, that is a lot of exposition to relay all at once. Had I been Redcloak I'd have tuned out at the mention of color coded deities :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, but Redcloak is the kind of goblin that puts his reports on color coded parchments (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html) and worries about cover sheets (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html). He'd eat up minutiae like that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't see what was good about his reason at all - especially since they literally arrived at the same conclusion Redcloak did before Thor explained that wouldn't work. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html) How could Durkon expect Redcloak to also not arrive at that conclusion/see it as a viable alternative absent a theological explanation?

"RC cares about goblin lives" is a good reason to place the emphasis on the fact that the world may be blown up. It's the wrong approach, sure, but Durkon didn't have a way to know that in advance.

GW

[Hiro Quester]

I love how the thicker outlines on Maxrah make it clear that this isn’t a normal large creature, but a medium creature, enlarged.

Nice artwork detail!

[Drogorn]

Durkon can't be faulted about not knowing about Redcloak's sunken cost fallacy. Or that he's just as nuts as the gods willing to burn everything to start over.

The gods being willing to preemptively destroy the world is partially motivated by the fact that the snarl eats the souls of everyone when it gets out. If the gods destroy the world, everyone gets to go to the afterlife.

[Lord Torath]

"It's a bad plan we planned for!" Gotta love Minrah!

Thanks, The Giant!

[Fyraltari]

I don't see what was good about his reason at all - especially since they literally arrived at the same conclusion Redcloak did before Thor explained that wouldn't work. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html) How could Durkon expect Redcloak to also not arrive at that conclusion/see it as a viable alternative absent a theological explanation?



Is this going to be a thing? I feel like this is going to be a thing.

They reached that conclusion as an outcome for failure in a « it’d be bad but at least it wouldn’t be the worst » way, Durkon didn’t realize that Redcloak was actually crazy enough to consider sacrificing every goblin alive an acceptable thing.

Edit: It’s already a thing.

[Worldsong]

Well, at least Maxrah and Durkon were actually properly prepared for this.

Also Redcloak pointing out that Durkon's offer is weaksauce and that he doesn't have much evidence to back up his claims.

That's not to say it isn't frustrating to see just how far down Redcloak is in his sunk cost that he thinks equality in the next world does anything for the goblinoids living in this one.

[dancrilis]

The gods being willing to preemptively destroy the world is partially motivated by the fact that the snarl eats the souls of everyone when it gets out. If the gods destroy the world, everyone gets to go to the afterlife.

Where the gods can slowly dissolve them into alignment juice.

Wonder what other objects Redcloak might have/will animate with that spell.

[Fyraltari]

Well, at least Maxrah and Durkon were actually properly prepared for this.

Also Redcloak pointing out that Durkon's offer is weaksauce and that he doesn't have much evidence to back up his claims.

That's not to say it isn't frustrating to see just how far down Redcloak is in his sunk cost that he thinks equality in the next world does anything for the goblinoids living in this one.

Actually that was always his line of thought even before he had sunken any cost in anything.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Were the gods can slowly dissolve them into alignment juice.

Still better than being immediately de-souled by the Snarl. Especially for those who get to enjoy decades, if not centuries, in the good-aligned afterlives.

Grey Wolf

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm guessing Durkon is using the flawed backdoor'ed Mass Death Ward spell he crafted with help from Malack. Now that the latter is dust, it is a lot less dangerous to use. If duration is similar to the non-mass one, it should last about a quarter of an hour. Nice catch/guess. :smallsmile:

ooh, I just noticed something else really neat. Body language. Last panel.
Minrah. Hand on hip as she says/complains/observes:

Great, that's just great. He's not gonna believe us now if we explain -
I like the attention to deail. :smallsmile:

[Peelee]

Where the gods can slowly dissolve them into alignment juice.

.... And? Mortals are mortal, gonna die and fade away at some point anyway, and the Good afterlives seem like a nice retirement plan. Are you similarly upset that in the real world, decomposing bodies enrich the soil?

Also, i never thought of it before but now I wonder... Does The Dark One know about all the other worlds? Or does he still think it was just the one? I imagine he knows the full scope, but I still wonder.

[Worldsong]

Actually that was always his line of thought even before he had sunken any cost in anything.

Really? That's actually rather surprising. Makes it even more important that it's explained to him that the world being destroyed is not a win condition though.

[Anansiil]

Ugh, didn't think it would matter. It's good to see genuine character flaws get in the way of what could have been a solid proposal.
As my math teacher said "when you assume, you make an Ass of U and Me". I'm with Minrah on that. Even if he didn't believe him outright, Red Cloak would have had to have calculated the risk and Then decided.

Let it wear away at him.

Durkon made a legitimate and fairly reasonable (from his perspective) mistake. Roy made the mistake of not trusting Durkon's plan. Red Cloak made mistakes too. Good writing and realistic :)

[Dausuul]

I don't see what was good about his reason at all - especially since they literally arrived at the same conclusion Redcloak did before Thor explained that wouldn't work. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html) How could Durkon expect Redcloak to also not arrive at that conclusion/see it as a viable alternative absent a theological explanation?
That strip is Minrah trying to see a bright side in case Durkon fails. It isn't her proposing "Sure, let the gods blow up the world, the next one will be awesome!" as an actual solution to the current problem.

Durkon assumed that Redcloak would want to preserve the current world--either for the sake of his people, or just because he personally would prefer not to die. That is an eminently sensible assumption, it just happens to be wrong in Redcloak's case.

I think a lot of folks are taking for granted the revelations of "Start of Darkness" about Redcloak's motivations. Durkon hasn't read "Start of Darkness," and without that background, Redcloak's attitude is head-twistingly insane. (Actually, it's head-twistingly insane with that background, but at least SoD shows us how he got there.)

[hroþila]

I don't think Durkon made a mistake by not bringing that up. That's exactly the kind of thing Redcloak would have no reason to believe coming from Durkon, and it would have torpedoed the whole discussion. He needed to build a rapport first.

[Frozenstep]

"It's a bad plan we planned for!" Gotta love Minrah!

It's goofy but so true. Minrah is the best.

[Worldsong]

That strip is Minrah trying to see a bright side in case Durkon fails. It isn't her proposing "Sure, let the gods blow up the world, the next one will be awesome!" as an actual solution to the current problem.

Durkon assumed that Redcloak would want to preserve the current world--either for the sake of his people, or just because he personally would prefer not to die. That is an eminently sensible assumption, it just happens to be wrong in Redcloak's case.

I think a lot of folks are taking for granted the revelations of "Start of Darkness" about Redcloak's motivations. Durkon hasn't read "Start of Darkness," and without that background, Redcloak's attitude is head-twistingly insane. (Actually, it's head-twistingly insane with that background, but at least SoD shows us how he got there.)

I think rather than head-twistingly insane the term would be nihilistic.

If he doesn't succeed in bringing equality to goblinkind in this world he might genuinely believe that this world is meaningless.

[Kakuro]

While it would definently been a huge "adventurers are here" sign to Xykon or the bugbears, it'd have been so helpful for Durkon to know the Avatar projection spell that was used at the Godsmoot. to hear it from Thor's lips, though RC would have definently accused him of lying, it would be nice to hear it from the source.

[Frozenstep]

I don't think Durkon made a mistake by not bringing that up. That's exactly the kind of thing Redcloak would have no reason to believe coming from Durkon, and it would have torpedoed the whole discussion. He needed to build a rapport first.

Absolutely. Try telling a cleric if they don't follow your plan, their god will die. That's really aggressive and hard to believe. For a peaceful talk about "let's work together to make this work for all of us", that's too much of a threat to sound reasonable.

[HolyDraconus]

Not sure how he's going to convince him. Plus he no longer has time.

[sihnfahl]

Very telling that RC thinks the world being undone is about him losing and no thought is given to all the other goblinoids that would be unmade with him.
He's operating on limited information.

He was already prepared for a LOT of goblin deaths.

Okay, so the Gods are going to destroy the world, but Gods can create a new one?

Since the Dark One is a God, the Dark One will play a part in creating a new world. And since the previous world was brought down because of Goblin actions, then maybe play nice with the Goblins unless they want yet another world brought down?

But he doesn't know that the time (and energy) spent hiding from, sealing the Snarl back up again, and creating a new world ... is immense, Gods without enough power perish.

And the Dark One? Doesn't have that level of power.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm with Minrah on that. Even if he didn't believe him outright, Red Cloak would have had to have calculated the risk and Then decided.

There is this flawed notion that throwing every argument at once is a good idea. It is not, not for this kind of negotiation. You want to lead with the strongest argument, and not deviate from it. Keep it, in a word, simple. Durkon made the calculated gamble that the risk to the lives of every goblin would count more than the danger to the TDO. It also builds on something they both know to be true, that there was a previous world, consumed by the Snarl, thus does not require RC to take Durkon's word for it.

The TDO danger, on the other hand, requires RC to take Durkon's word for a lot of things, which an enemy is unlikely to do.

Now, would I have opened with the danger to TDO, on the basis that RC cares more about him than he does about the goblins? Yes - I am on record saying as much... but I probably know RC much better than Durkon does. And I had not considered the reality that I have no way to prove TDO is in danger beyond "Thor said so" which, as proof go, is really weak sauce.

No, I think Durkon had the better approach, even if it didn't work.

Grey Wolf

[Worldsong]

Not sure how he's going to convince him. Plus he no longer has time.

I think they're going to disengage soon and try again at a later time. There's still too much going on for the next scenario to be the final battle between the Order and Team Evil.

[facw]

The Gates can’t be moved without breaking them. Soon had to commission a castle big enough to reach the Rift above Azure City.

We know that, though we do see Soon moving it in the Crayons of Time https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html, so either there's a little play in their position, or Shojo was misleading us (shocking, I know)

[dancrilis]

Still better than being immediately de-souled by the Snarl. Especially for those who get to enjoy decades, if not centuries, in the good-aligned afterlives.

Grey Wolf

Perhaps, but that might also depend on if the Snarl does what we have been lead to believe it does (rather then merely moving the world to Snarl Space (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html) or similiar).


.... And? Mortals are mortal, gonna die and fade away at some point anyway, and the Good afterlives seem like a nice retirement plan.

And nothing really.
My point (to the extent that I had one) was more that getting dissolved by the afterlife or being dissolved by the Snarl might not be that much different really, for some afterlives the second option might even be better (we don't really know it is possible that all afterlives are nice in their own way).


Are you similarly upset that in the real world, decomposing bodies enrich the soil?
Upset would be the wrong world - although I have wondered of being put in a container after death and launched into space on a collision course with nothing might be a nice way to go.



Also, i never thought of it before but now I wonder... Does The Dark One know about all the other worlds? Or does he still think it was just the one? I imagine he knows the full scope, but I still wonder.

I don't think he does - but who knows.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

We know that, though we do see Soon moving it in the Crayons of Time https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html, so either there's a little play in their position, or Shojo was misleading us (shocking, I know)

Neither: it's a crayon. It's a story being told. If Soon said "and the custody of the sapphire passed hands", you might picture that scene, when it was meant only in the figurative sense, and the sapphire was on the throne all along.


Perhaps, but that might also depend on if the Snarl does what we have been lead to believe it does (rather then merely moving the world to Snarl Space (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html) or similiar).

Unless snarl space comes with its own afterlife, no, dying and going to the good afterlife is still better than being taken to a planet devoid of life and then dying of starvation and then not going to an afterlife (or going to one where your soul is slowly dissolved into the snarl). In short, it takes a lot of added supposition to prefer being consumed by the Snarl to cushy afterlife.

Grey Wolf

[Dausuul]

There is this flawed notion that throwing every argument at once is a good idea. It is not, not for this kind of negotiation. You want to lead with the strongest argument, and not deviate from it. Keep it, in a word, simple.
Yup. It's a good rule for forum debates, too. The other person will seize on your weakest point and challenge you on it, and that's what you'll end up talking about. So the more points you put forth, the weaker your position.

(ends post without making any other arguments)

[Fyraltari]

Also, i never thought of it before but now I wonder... Does The Dark One know about all the other worlds? Or does he still think it was just the one? I imagine he knows the full scope, but I still wonder.
If he does he didn’t transmit that info to Redcloak and I see no reason why he wouldn’t have.

Really? That's actually rather surprising. Makes it even more important that it's explained to him that the world being destroyed is not a win condition though.
It’s his Plan B, even.

I don't think Durkon made a mistake by not bringing that up. That's exactly the kind of thing Redcloak would have no reason to believe coming from Durkon, and it would have torpedoed the whole discussion. He needed to build a rapport first.
I don’t think it was a mistake either. I also don’t think it would have been a mistake to bring it up. Durkon had no proof of his claims, no guarantees to back his promises and no idea of the baggage he was up against. This was a doomed endeavour from the start.

I think rather than head-twistingly insane the term would be nihilistic.

If he doesn't succeed in bringing equality to goblinkind in this world he might genuinely believe that this world is meaningless.
That’s not what nihilism is. If Redcloak was nihilistic he wouldn’t even try to better the goblins’ situation because that would be meaningless.

While it would definently been a huge "adventurers are here" sign to Xykon or the bugbears, it'd have been so helpful for Durkon to know the Avatar projection spell that was used at the Godsmoot. to hear it from Thor's lips, though RC would have definently accused him of lying, it would be nice to hear it from the source.
Summon Proxy does not let the god see or hear the mortals present.

We know that, though we do see Soon moving it in the Crayons of Time https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html, so either there's a little play in their position, or Shojo was misleading us (shocking, I know)
You know it never clicked for me that it was the Sapphire. I don’t think it contained the Gate yet, then.

[dancrilis]

Unless snarl space comes with its own afterlife, no, dying and going to the good afterlife is still better than being taken to a planet devoid of life and then dying of starvation and then not going to an afterlife (or going to one where your soul is slowly dissolved into the snarl). In short, it takes a lot of added supposition to prefer being consumed by the Snarl to cushy afterlife.

Grey Wolf

I am very very dubious about Snarl Space, but one of my random theories is that the stars in the sky of it are planets that are affectively moved there with all their people - if this insanely random theory is correct then the gods destroying the world and killing everyone is opposed by the Snarl saving everyone from the rule of the uncaring deities.

Would it have its own afterlife? - who knows, but getting to live your life and then dying later (gone dead not walk on a cloud dead or burn in a pit dead) might be regarded as better then being dead now, even if dead now is cushy.

[Worldsong]

It’s his Plan B, even.

I figured that while it was always a part of the plan he first was fully focused on Plan A and only accepted Plan B as also being viable once the sunk cost had begun to set in.

That’s not what nihilism is. If Redcloak was nihilistic he wouldn’t even try to better the goblins’ situation because that would be meaningless.

I've encountered several forms of nihilism, it can be hard to keep track. Nevertheless he can still believe that a world where equality for goblinkind is impossible has no value worth keeping.

[Eurus]

The Dark One may not survive the unmaking of this world, which isn't really the same as saying that it 100% will die. Yes, Thor made it sound like the odds are really not in TDO's favor here, but Redcloak is already gambling unwisely, so he might not care as long as there's a possibility.

I kinda wonder what Redcloak's even going to do if he takes control of the last rift, though. Since "use the threat of unmaking the world to establish Gobbotopia as a sovereign nation and force everyone to play nice" isn't good enough, that leaves... what? Destroy everything that's not a goblin?

[dancrilis]

If he does he didn’t transmit that info to Redcloak and I see no reason why he wouldn’t have.


It might make sense if he wants Redcloak to think he has a better chance of success then he really has - if Redcloak thought the other gods would pull the plug as soon as he gets close then he (or the previous goblins who wore the cloak) might have just felt that it wasn't worth trying if Plan A couldn't possible work and that their friends and families lives mattered.

[Peelee]

Yup. It's a good rule for forum debates, too. The other person will seize on your weakest point and challenge you on it, and that's what you'll end up talking about. So the more points you put forth, the weaker your position.

(ends post without making any other arguments)

One of my favorite debate tactics, when possible, is to assume the strongest, most favorable possibilities for the other side and the weakest, least favorable possibilities for my side, so that when my argument still holds up, it is significantly more difficult to challenge.

Is not common, but I do greatly enjoy when I can pull it out.

[Anansiil]

Leading with your best argument is a great idea... the issue with that is you have to know which of your arguments is going to resonate most strongly with the other person... a guess.

I suffer from V-ism, in that I lay it all out. It's often too much, but at least my conversation partner has the full picture. They can choose my strongest or weakest point, but at least they have the option to select among the various points.

My goal is to inform them, and hope they make a reasonable choice (I assume people are reasonable), rather than to convince them on the strength of my good arguments (they may have different motivations).


I don't think Durkon made a mistake by not bringing that up. That's exactly the kind of thing Redcloak would have no reason to believe coming from Durkon, and it would have torpedoed the whole discussion. He needed to build a rapport first.

Rapport would definitely help. Redcloak is very intelligent and organized, so he might have been able to ask good questions if Durkon laid out more of the scenario. It's possible Redcloak would have dismissed it. Durkon could then ask Redcloak, "how do you know that's ridiculous? How do gods sustain themselves, why do they need worshippers?" A reasonable question not so easily dismissed, though still dismissable. :)


He's operating on limited information.

He was already prepared for a LOT of goblin deaths.

Okay, so the Gods are going to destroy the world, but Gods can create a new one?

Since the Dark One is a God, the Dark One will play a part in creating a new world. And since the previous world was brought down because of Goblin actions, then maybe play nice with the Goblins unless they want yet another world brought down?

But he doesn't know that the time (and energy) spent hiding from, sealing the Snarl back up again, and creating a new world ... is immense, Gods without enough power perish.

And the Dark One? Doesn't have that level of power.

This goes to my point. Limited information on one side and substantially more information on the other side makes for an unbalanced discussion. If I'm somewhat right about people being generally reasonable, operating on the same facts can help close gaps and steer people to similar conclusions.

Redcloak made the same conclusion, "wait till next round" Strip 1144 https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html
"If gods can die, can a fresh young god survive?"

[Windscion]

"It's a bad plan we planned for!" Gotta love Minrah!

Rah rah Minrah! You rock, girl!

[137beth]

I think Durkon might feel dwarfed by Maxrah's demands

I love the name "Maxrah":smallbiggrin:

[Worldsong]

I love the name "Maxrah":smallbiggrin:

It's good enough to make me think that The Giant called her Minrah just for that pun.

[pendell]

It's good enough to make me think that The Giant called her Minrah just for that pun.

So you're saying that when they cast enlarge person on her they were min-maxing?

Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week.

Tongue-in-cheek ,

Brian P.

[The Pilgrim]

Good thing that when they made Kraagor's statue, they didn't featured him carrying his battleaxe.

[Nomen]

Bringing up the mole of destroyed worlds or the fact that The Dark One likely won't survive the transfer are risky moves because weaken Redcloak's position so much. If your not careful how you bring them up or you lack proof it would sound like you are making stuff up.
My instinct would be to bring it up as a reason the gods position is so weak.

[Jasdoif]

The Gates can’t be moved without breaking them. Soon had to commission a castle big enough to reach the Rift above Azure City.We know that, though we do see Soon moving it in the Crayons of Time https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html, so either there's a little play in their position, or Shojo was misleading us (shocking, I know)That wasn't the Gate itself.



The gem reinforces the Gate; the gem is NOT the Gate, and the Gate is not the seal, and the seal is not the rift. The gem is the deadbolt, not the lock, or the door, or the doorway. The "door" is a complex spell that is not actually visible but is what Dorukan and Lirian are casting in the first panel of the second page of #276. The "lock" is the Gate, a tiny magical object that later had a throne crafted around it; it's about the size of a raisin in the case of Azure City. The "doorway" is the rift itself, and it is not really inside the gemstone, it's just that the gem (and Gate) are translucent and we can see through it (because it's a visual medium and it made it easier to understand). The gemstone is an enchanted object that further seals and reinforces the Gate; thus, the "deadbolt."

When Soon hands over the Sapphire to Shojo's father, he is essentially giving the last piece of the Gate's security system over so that it might be put into place. Think of the Sapphire as an additional seal that Soon and his followers came up with. The Sapphire does not NEED to be in the same place as the Gate in order to seal it, because it's magic, but moving it around is risky. There's a chance that it will just fail and the Gate will swing open. Before the panel shown, Soon likely kept it somewhere else safe, but chose as he was dying to consolidate the protections (because that's where he was going to be hanging out as a ghost-martyr). I guess the magic might have been stronger being in the same spot as the Gate, too.

So, no, the Gate or the rift could not have been physically moved. The Sapphire could be moved, and Xykon would have been obligated to track it down and undo its magic before he could perform his ritual, but there would be a risk in doing so, and it wouldn't really have stopped Xykon from sieging the city at that point (because he still would have needed the immovable Gate).

The use of Redcloak's magic ritual to shift the Gate into another plane is entirely unrelated, and in fact can only shift a Gate to another plane—not to another place in THIS plane. Think of it like moving a Bag of Holding from the Prime to an Outer Plane: you've moved the entranceway to an extradimensional space, but opening it still leads to the same interior.

[Wildstag]

Can't the next stage of negotiations just include using Plane Shift to the Astral Plane and the monuments to universes lost? Granted, they aren't marked with "universe concept", but there were so many that 500 miles off should still put them in the forest of monuments.

From there, it's just a matter of convincing RC of the truth of the monuments, though given his known distrust of simple honesty, I'm not sure anything would work. He'd just insist there's some unknown factor preventing him from noticing their lie.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Can't the next stage of negotiations just include using Plane Shift to the Astral Plane and the monuments to universes lost? Granted, they aren't marked with "universe concept", but there were so many that 500 miles off should still put them in the forest of monuments.

No. Mostly because negotiations are over, and it'd take more than a proposal to go traipsing through a void to restart them. But in practical terms, you can't teleport to the monuments - at best, you'd end up 500 miles-ish from the little entrance the gods set up to hide them, so good luck finding that entrance without divine piggybacks.

Grey Wolf

[Worldsong]

Can't the next stage of negotiations just include using Plane Shift to the Astral Plane and the monuments to universes lost? Granted, they aren't marked with "universe concept", but there were so many that 500 miles off should still put them in the forest of monuments.

From there, it's just a matter of convincing RC of the truth of the monuments, though given his known distrust of simple honesty, I'm not sure anything would work. He'd just insist there's some unknown factor preventing him from noticing their lie.

I believe Thor said something about the monuments being hidden away so they could only be accessed through a specific spot in the Astral Plane.

[pendell]

Another note is that Redcloak is not casting implosion again. Does this imply he has only one ninth-level slot? Does that put his level at 18?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[understatement]

Another note is that Redcloak is not casting implosion again. Does this imply he has only one ninth-level slot? Does that put his level at 18?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

He went dungeon crawling the past night, so he might have spent a 9th long before negotations.

[Fitzclowningham]

Another note is that Redcloak is not casting implosion again. Does this imply he has only one ninth-level slot? Does that put his level at 18?

He has at least two 9th-level slots, a domain spell and a regular one. The domain spell could be either Implosion (destruction) or Summon Monster IX (law).

[Freak_Hybrid]

Am I the only one that thought that when the statue moved it would open up a secret passage?

(I originally thought it opened due to being struck but I'd missed redcloak's animate object spell)

[Gray Mage]

Another note is that Redcloak is not casting implosion again. Does this imply he has only one ninth-level slot? Does that put his level at 18?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

No, Clerics always get at least 2 spell slots for every new spell level since there's a domain slot (which could have been implosion). Anyhow, being level 18 he would have at least 2 normal 9th spell slots. To have the least amount of 9th spell slots he'd have to be level 17.

[Worldsong]

Another note is that Redcloak is not casting implosion again. Does this imply he has only one ninth-level slot? Does that put his level at 18?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I'm guessing Implosion is his Domain Spell because I doubt it'd be very useful in Kraagor's Tomb.

[jidasfire]

Much as I hate to say it here, Redcloak is kinda right in his assessment of the gods. Not completely, of course, and not for the reasons he thinks, but he is correct. The truth is, the gods were willing to consider destroying the world, but it's only tangentially because of his plan. and more because the conflict surrounding it is destabilizing the world. It's also worth noting that had Hel's plan succeeded, they'd have destroyed the world no matter what, and now that she's failed, it seems that once the table-based deadlock subsides, they will spare it regardless.

Ultimately that gives him less reason to listen, rather than more. It's sad, though not really surprising, that Redcloak was never arguing or listening in good faith, but based on everything we know about him, it makes sense. No offer of equality that is given rather than taken would ever be accepted, and if last (known) surviving family member couldn't convince him otherwise, what chance did a "random dwarf" have?

All the same, it's good that we know now, and hopefully despite this failure, there will be some positive repercussions down the line of what Durkon's done here.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Another note is that Redcloak is not casting implosion again. Does this imply he has only one ninth-level slot? Does that put his level at 18?

No, at best it just means he, unlike Lauren, is not a fan of going nova and blowing all his high-level spells early. Depending on what is in his other 9th level slot, he might be saving it for a crucial moment, or it might be a support spell (he was planning on going cave-hunting with Xykon, after all) that would not be immediately useful right now.

Grey Wolf

[Particle_Man]

It would be funny if the gate got moved to Xykon’s Astral fortress with his fake phylactery.

Anyhow shouldn’t Durkon and Minrah be fleeing? Negotiations have failed, at least for now. This is at best a two on one (well maybe two on two if you count the statue) vs. a higher level spellcaster, and Xykon might show up at any moment.

[KorvinStarmast]

Unless snarl space comes with its own afterlife, no, dying and going to the good afterlife is still better than being taken to a planet devoid of life and then dying of starvation and then not going to an afterlife (or going to one where your soul is slowly dissolved into the snarl). I am not sure that we know this much about snarlworld, even though Lauren's inability to sense life does raise that prospect as part of the truth of snarlworld. Now, let's all sing ..

It's a snarlworld after all
It's a snarlworld after all
It's a snarlworld after all
It's a snarl, snarl, world!

Depending on what is in his other 9th level slot, he might be saving it for a crucial moment, or it might be a support spell (he was planning on going cave-hunting with Xykon, after all) that would not be immediately useful right now. Given Redcloak's tactical / efficiency habits to date, I'll vote for that one.

[Fyraltari]

Good thing that when they made Kraagor's statue, they didn't featured him carrying his battleaxe.

A stone shaped in the form of a battle-axe would not function as a battle-axe because it wouldn’t be sharp. At worst it’d just give « Kraagor » more reach.

[Fitzclowningham]

I have to say that Redcloak kind of does have a reason to trust that Durkon is in fact a messenger of the gods: Durkon knows what The Plan is in detail. No one else in the world (including Xykon) knows. It's surprising that RC didn't have more of a reaction upon finding out.

[Worldsong]

It would be funny if the gate got moved to Xykon’s Astral fortress with his fake phylactery.

That would actually be pretty cool. Possibly also disastrous since I don't think we want the Snarl to have direct access to the Astral Plane.


A stone shaped in the form of a battle-axe would not function as a battle-axe because it wouldn’t be sharp. At worst it’d just give « Kraagor » more reach.

In theory as long as it's heavy enough and the shape is similar to an edge you could have it act like an edge with enough strength...

However before we'd hit that point the axe would already have fallen apart because stone doesn't handle tensile strength very well, which is important for elongated shapes.

Unless it was some really well made stone most likely the first hit would make the head break off after which « Kraagor » is just holding a stone stick. And not a very long one.


I have to say that Redcloak kind of does have a reason to trust that Durkon is in fact a messenger of the gods: Durkon knows what The Plan is in detail. No one else in the world (including Xykon) knows. It's surprising that RC didn't have more of a reaction upon finding out.

He trusts that Durkon is a messenger of the gods. However he doesn't trust the gods, so why should he trust what Durkon has to say?

[DougTheHead]

As much as the comic can sometimes struggle with the way "speaking is a free action" allows characters to just spout reams of exposition in the middle of a fight, Rich knows how to get a good joke out of it.

[Shining Wrath]

Hey all - you know who might believe Minrah about TDO not making it? TDO himself.

Deities have the ability to perceive things on the prime material plane related to their domains, and Redcloak just tossed off a level 9 domain spell.

Plausibly, this got The Dark One's attention. "What is my High Priest destroying today? Might be interesting".

And then TDO hears Minrah speak of his possible death - not as part of negotiations, but conversing with her ally when she's got no reason to lie, and certainly no reason to suspect TDO is listening. We know TDO has the ability to converse with the other gods, although he's been non-communicative recently. And he may have some level of trust for Loki (ironically enough), or one of the other evil gods. Or, being a god, he may have an intuitive understanding of "I need to eat, I get weaker when I don't get enough food, what's this about my food supply going away for a very long time?".

It's probably not how Rich is going to write this, but Redcloak might be about to have a face-to-face conversation with his god, and not the one he wants or expects.

[gatemansgc]

I'm guessing Durkon is using the flawed backdoor'ed Mass Death Ward spell he crafted with help from Malack. Now that the latter is dust, it is a lot less dangerous to use. If duration is similar to the non-mass one, it should last about a quarter of an hour.

Grey Wolf

true, nobody knows the backdoor except durkon now!

[Aidan]

Minrah seemed almost like an insert for the forums in this comic, asking him a bunch of questions like "well why didn't you do this?" and I loved it.

[Fyraltari]

Hey all - you know who might believe Minrah about TDO not making it? TDO himself.

Deities have the ability to perceive things on the prime material plane related to their domains, and Redcloak just tossed off a level 9 domain spell.

Plausibly, this got The Dark One's attention. "What is my High Priest destroying today? Might be interesting".

And then TDO hears Minrah speak of his possible death - not as part of negotiations, but conversing with her ally when she's got no reason to lie, and certainly no reason to suspect TDO is listening. We know TDO has the ability to converse with the other gods, although he's been non-communicative recently. And he may have some level of trust for Loki (ironically enough), or one of the other evil gods. Or, being a god, he may have an intuitive understanding of "I need to eat, I get weaker when I don't get enough food, what's this about my food supply going away for a very long time?".

It's probably not how Rich is going to write this, but Redcloak might be about to have a face-to-face conversation with his god, and not the one he wants or expects.

Aaaand I just pictured a comic where the last panel is replaced by a cut to the Dark One in his realm watching the action much like Hel did (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1080.html) and going: « Pardon ? »

[b_jonas]

Durkon's job/task from Thor boils down to this: get Redcloak to trust you. Not really. Durkon's task is to make Redcloak suspicious enough that there might be something relevant in what Durkon is saying, even if he doesn't trust that it's the truth, and relay it to the Dark One. The Dark One can then reinitiate contact with Thor, or with other gods if he prefers evil gods. The Dark One can then decide on the best course of action himself and give an order to Redcoalk.

There could be some delay if Redcloak disobeys his god, because then they'd have to raise another 17th level high priest of the Dark One. But I believe Redcloak couldn't cast the Ritual against The Dark One's will, because the Ritual takes several days, and The Dark One gives him spells every day, so he can uncleric Redcloak before the Ritual is finished. That's unless it turns out that the divine half of the Ritual is quick and only the arcane half takes days, but that's unlikely. Without cleric powers, it would be easy to defeat Redcloak, so he probably wouldn't be able to quickly destroy the last Gate, and Xykon at least wants the world intact.

[Shining Wrath]

Not really. Durkon's task is to make Redcloak suspicious enough that there might be something relevant in what Durkon is saying, even if he doesn't trust that it's the truth, and relay it to the Dark One. The Dark One can then reinitiate contact with Thor, or with other gods if he prefers evil gods. The Dark One can then decide on the best course of action himself and give an order to Redcoalk.

There could be some delay if Redcloak disobeys his god, because then they'd have to raise another 17th level high priest of the Dark One. But I believe Redcloak couldn't cast the Ritual against The Dark One's will, because the Ritual takes several days, and The Dark One gives him spells every day, so he can uncleric Redcloak before the Ritual is finished. That's unless it turns out that the divine half of the Ritual is quick and only the arcane half takes days, but that's unlikely. Without cleric powers, it would be easy to defeat Redcloak, so he probably wouldn't be able to quickly destroy the last Gate, and Xykon at least wants the world intact.

And as I posited, even if Redcloak doesn't trust Durkon enough to bother TDO with Durkon's message, TDO might be listening to a conversation his High Priest is having immediately after having popped off a 9th level domain spell. Durkon may have succeeded without knowing it.

[understatement]

There's probably a lot of implications/moralities/whatever, so I just wanted to comment on the 7th panel:

it's not an OOTS villain if they don't do the "villain pose."

See: Tarquin (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html), Greg (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html), Gontor (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1157.html), Sabine (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), and probably a bunch more.

[Psyren]

"RC cares about goblin lives" is a good reason to place the emphasis on the fact that the world may be blown up. It's the wrong approach, sure, but Durkon didn't have a way to know that in advance.

GW

Caring about their lives though would have the obvious alternative of their (future) lives also being better if their souls are saved and they have a deity in their corner from Day 0. Not only does Durkon know it's an impossibility, he knows empirically that that won't be seen as an impossibility without being explicitly told that. The details he was taught - both about divine nourishment and the length of time the Snarl rampages before being restrained - are the most important details he could have shared in this negotiation, and not doing so was beyond stupid.

Put another way - if Redcloak cared about the goblin lives in this world, that information would have potentially been extraneous but still helpful, whereas if he doesn't, it's the only piece of information that would sway him. Either way, Durkon should have realized Redcloak would follow a similar thought process that he and Minrah did and planned for that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The details he was taught - both about divine nourishment and the length of time the Snarl rampages before being restrained - are the most important details he could have shared in this negotiation, and not doing so was beyond stupid.

No. It'd be stupid to open with those details given he barely understands them himself, and has no way of conveying their truthfulness to RC. Any opening information that simply can be dismissed with "I have no reason to believe you" is what would be beyond stupid.

Also, consider this, before throwing words like "beyond stupid" about:

But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
Durkon isn't stupid. Thus, any assumption that leads you to believe he is falls under the above quote.

Grey Wolf

[Worldsong]

The main problem boils down to Durkon being unable to prove anything he's saying. As has been pointed out by others, saying 'oh and if the world explodes your god won't survive to the next one' will almost certainly cause Redcloak to think Durkon is threatening him with a false warning.

[Peelee]

Am I the only one that thought that when the statue moved it would open up a secret passage?
Probably not. It's been speculated (and quite well refuted) that the statue is really the Gate, or hiding the Gate, or etc etc by a lot of people.

A stone shaped in the form of a battle-axe would not function as a battle-axe because it wouldn’t be sharp. At worst it’d just give « Kraagor » more reach.
Eh, I'd just stat it as a battle axe and change slashing damage to bludgeoning damage. Easy peasy.

[danielxcutter]

Honestly between “Why should I believe you” and “It’s worth taking the risk,” the odds of that argument working anyways were roughly somewhere between “zero” and “nil” at best.

[Fyraltari]

Eh, I'd just call that a battle axe and change slashing damage to bludgeoning damage. Easy peasy.
Is there a joke I am not getting there? It feels like there is a joke I am not getting there.

[Peelee]

Is there a joke I am not getting there? It feels like there is a joke I am not getting there.

No, just hypothetical lazy DMing. Though I did edit my wording a bit to be more clear, just not fast enough.

[Fyraltari]

No, just hypothetical lazy DMing. Though I did edit my wording a bit to be more clear, just not fast enough.

But would you give it more damage than the statue « unarmed »?

[Ronan]

R.I.P. World. It's over and we'll have a reboot. Is the Oots going to start all over again like a massive groundhog day? Is there going to be a time lapse? Why does this seem '60s batman narration? Find out next time*, in The Order Of The Stick.

*Take your time, Giant. I MUCH rather have a good well planned comic than a bad one that ends soon. I just want it to end well^^

[The_Weirdo]

Annnnnd Minrah wins the "Straight Man" trophy for the strip. :smallbiggrin:

[Rogar Demonblud]

I think Durkon might feel dwarfed by Maxrah's demands


Is this going to be a thing? I feel like this is going to be a thing.

Maxrah the Ever-LivingPunching!

[HolyDraconus]

I agree with who said it earlier: TDO listening in after his High Priest dropped some near epic magic would be an attention grabber. Plus, we know that the gods listen to their clerics even if the clerics don't know about it due to how Thor interacted with Durkon for, well, most of this comic.

[Schroeswald]

Maxrah the Ever-LivingPunching!

Her heart scales with her fists!

[dancrilis]

But would you give it more damage than the statue « unarmed »?

If the statue is medium than arming it with a battle axe would give it 1d8 damage rather the 1d6, a large statue would move from 1d8 to 2d6.
It could still use its second slam attack.
However the statue would not seem to be proficient in any weapons so it would likely be a bad trade.

If I am reading everything correctly (also think there are rules for stone weapons somewhere but can't remember where).

[elros]

For someone who started out as a fighter, Minrah is outclassing Durkon in rhetoric! Not sure if that reflects a successful diplomacy check (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm) or a superior intelligence score (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#intelligenceInt).
I also think she's doing just fine with the hammer, so I don't know why Durkon should get it back

[Shining Wrath]

The main problem boils down to Durkon being unable to prove anything he's saying. As has been pointed out by others, saying 'oh and if the world explodes your god won't survive to the next one' will almost certainly cause Redcloak to think Durkon is threatening him with a false warning.

Durkon's only hope is to get that message to The Dark One, who presumably at least understands that he feels something akin to hunger when not worshiped / called upon / fed goblin souls.

[dancrilis]

I also think she's doing just fine with the hammer, so I don't know why Durkon should get it back

... Redcloak has gotten off two spells since she got her unexpected attack in without her being able to touch him, that may not meet Durkon's defination of 'doing just fine'.

[skim172]

Redcloak has lost it. "Feh, I've no reason to believe some random dwarf when he tells me that the gods are willing to blow up the world. I will, however, believe everything else that dwarf has told me."

I wonder if Xykon has overheard any of this. He probably suspects that Redcloak isn't throwing straight dice with him anyway, but if he's been listening, he's got full confirmation that Redcloak's aims are not in line with his own plans for global domination.

If that's what Xykon really wants. Sure, becoming emperor of the world was what drew him in initially, but he's changed since he became undead. Perhaps now, nothing would please him more than to unleash the Snarl and witness the end of creation.

[Jasdoif]

The main problem boils down to Durkon being unable to prove anything he's saying.No; the main problem boils down to Durkon and Redcloak not knowing anything about the others' priorities and trying to act on their expectations instead. Durkon assumed Redcloak viewed people as his highest priority, like Durkon sees himself; Redcloak assumed Durkon was empowered by his god to accomplish his goals however he saw fit, like Redcloak sees himself. Not being on the same page they're basically talking past each other.

This whole thing was more useful for fact-finding than it realistically could be as a negotiation.

[Worldsong]

For someone who started out as a fighter, Minrah is outclassing Durkon in rhetoric! Not sure if that reflects a successful diplomacy check (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm) or a superior intelligence score (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#intelligenceInt).
I also think she's doing just fine with the hammer, so I don't know why Durkon should get it back


... Redcloak has gotten off two spells since she got her unexpected attack in without her being able to touch him, that may not meet Durkon's defination of 'doing just fine'.

I think Durkon was more subtly trying to imply that Maxrah should be using the hammer to hit things (like the statue attacking him) rather than standing there and arguing.

Note that he's probably fine with her arguing as long as she simultaneously hits things with the hammer.

EDIT:

No; the main problem boils down to Durkon and Redcloak not knowing anything about the others' priorities and trying to act on their expectations instead. Durkon assumed Redcloak viewed people as his highest priority, like Durkon sees himself; Redcloak assumed Durkon was empowered by his god to accomplish his goals however he saw fit, like Redcloak sees himself. Not being on the same page they're basically talking past each other.

This whole thing was more useful for fact-finding than it realistically could be as a negotiation.

I'd argue both problems are pretty important, but when it comes to the actual negotiating I'm guessing Durkon would have led with "the gods are about ready to blow up the world and your god won't survive that either." if he knew for a fact that Redcloak would believe him.

[Skull the Troll]

Probably not. It's been speculated (and quite well refuted) that the statue is really the Gate, or hiding the Gate, or etc etc by a lot of people.
<Snip>

How has it been refuted? I'll be honest it seems so clear in the Crayons of Time (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) that that is where it is I never considered another option.


But would you give it more damage than the statue « unarmed »?

Its not really unarmed however. That axe must weigh more and be harder than most clubs. Its really kind of irrelevant though. I don't even think its lazy DM'ing, damage stats for weapons are unrealistic by nature. Any weapon or improvised object can one shot any living thing in the right circumstances. Think of the Joker in the Dark Knight. He used a pencil to kill what was presumably a fairly high level "fighter." With the soft end even. In this case I'd run the game based on close enough and not stop the drama of the storytelling to figure out the "right" stats.

[dancrilis]

How has it been refuted? I'll be honest it seems so clear in the Crayons of Time (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) that that is where it is I never considered another option.

Short version, panel 4 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1198.html) (surrounding panels help inform).

Long version it is such an obvious hiding place that to believe that Redcloak and Xykon would miss it is hard to fathom.

[Worldsong]

How has it been refuted? I'll be honest it seems so clear in the Crayons of Time (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) that that is where it is I never considered another option.

The simple answer: Redcloak and Xykon were the ones who thought of fooling Azure City with Xykon clones in the first place. They're well aware that sometimes the best way to hide something is to pretend it's somewhere else so if the statue was hiding the Gate they'd already have found it.

Especially since the rift and the Gate are stuck in place so moving the statue would immediately reveal the Gate.

[Fyraltari]

How has it been refuted? I'll be honest it seems so clear in the Crayons of Time (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) that that is where it is I never considered another option.

That page does not imply that the Gate is inside the statue. The panel composition is similar, yes, high can lead to confusion but the background (tree, rocks) is not, meaning there has been a shift in location.

This is not Serini’s Gate, it’s Kraagor’s it was built to honor his belief in strength. Having the Gate hidden in plain sight would disrespect his memory.

Finally, in addition to the other reasons given why it would be a bad hiding spot, the fortress, as it is designed, maximizes frustration in its attackers. Redcloak has too much self control and the rest of Team Evil isn’t invested enough to vent that frrustration, but had they been lead by a more powerful Nale for example, said hypothetical attacker would have long blasted the statue to smithereen for the catharsis alone.

[Shining Wrath]

No; the main problem boils down to Durkon and Redcloak not knowing anything about the others' priorities and trying to act on their expectations instead. Durkon assumed Redcloak viewed people as his highest priority, like Durkon sees himself; Redcloak assumed Durkon was empowered by his god to accomplish his goals however he saw fit, like Redcloak sees himself. Not being on the same page they're basically talking past each other.

This whole thing was more useful for fact-finding than it realistically could be as a negotiation.

Durkon, being Good, believes people matter.
Redcloak, being Evil, believes people are tools he can use to advance himself.

Durkon can't comprehend risking the deaths of everyone for a Plan.
Redcloak can't comprehend not winning at any cost.

If Durkon thought like Redcloak, he might have led with "Your Plan cannot succeed because the gods will stop it and very likely the way they stop it will result in the Dark One starving to death". The lack of evidence for that, though, is a sticking point.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

Keep him talking so you can keep learning about his outlook

[Skull the Troll]

That page does not imply that the Gate is inside the statue. The panel composition is similar, yes, high can lead to confusion but the background (tree, rocks) is not, meaning there has been a shift in location.

This is not Serini’s Gate, it’s Kraagor’s it was built to honor his belief in strength. Having the Gate hidden in plain sight would disrespect his memory.

Finally, in addition to the other reasons given why it would be a bad hiding spot, the fortress, as it is designed, maximizes frustration in its attackers. Redcloak has too much self control and the rest of Team Evil isn’t invested enough to vent that frrustration, but had they been lead by a more powerful Nale for example, said hypothetical attacker would have long blasted the statue to smithereen for the catharsis alone.

I suppose I agree with all of that and the previous posters comments about how it would be revealed when the statue moved. I suppose where my head was in a place where I saw the rift was above ground so its going to be difficult (but not impossible) for it to be very far underground now. Xykon is using Serini's Diary for this so she was at least smart enough to not write down which door it was or otherwise directly indicate how to find the gate. I dont think its outside the realm of possibility the whole thing is a false flag but I agree its not the statue.

[Shining Wrath]

I suppose I agree with all of that and the previous posters comments about how it would be revealed when the statue moved. I suppose where my head was in a place where I saw the rift was above ground so its going to be difficult (but not impossible) for it to be very far underground now. Xykon is using Serini's Diary for this so she was at least smart enough to not write down which door it was or otherwise directly indicate how to find the gate. I dont think its outside the realm of possibility the whole thing is a false flag but I agree its not the statue.

That the Gate is miles and miles away would be consistent with Serini, but not with Kragor. Unless it's miles away in the lair of the sleeping Tarrasque.

[Pax_Chi]

One line that I think is getting ignored:

"I don't remember 'peaceful' being on my list of demands."

As another well-intentioned extremist blinded by self-righteous anger and his own bigotry once put it:

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/884/758/c06.gif

Redcloak was never going to be happy with peaceful co-existence. It isn't enough to get what he wants via a compromise. He wants to WIN, he sees this as a contest in which all non-goblins have to lose in order for him to win. Only now he thinks that even if he loses, everyone else does as well. Flip the table, scatter the pieces, we have to start over from scratch.

In his mind, either Redcloak wins or everyone loses.

Which is funny, because I'm remembering TDO's only direct message to Redcloak: "Don't screw this up" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html).

I'm now picturing a smash cut to TDO's plane where he's face palming and saying "He screwed this up."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

the rift was above ground so its going to be difficult (but not impossible) for it to be very far underground now.

The system of caves is made of multidimensional stone (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html). That does not sound like a natural rock formation. Therefore, Serini must have built it around the rift, just as the pyramid and the castle were.


Xykon is using Serini's Diary for this so she was at least smart enough to not write down which door it was or otherwise directly indicate how to find the gate

It's a diary of their adventures, not a guide to the defences. It tells you were the rifts are because they visited them in the course of the adventures, but it doesn't give you any details beyond it - for example RC was trying to get details on the pyramid defences from O-Chul, indicating the diary was mum on that as well.

Grey Wolf

[dancrilis]

The system of caves is made of multidimensional stone (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html). That does not sound like a natural rock formation. Therefore, Serini must have built it around the rift, just as the pyramid and the castle were.



It's a diary of their adventures, not a guide to the defences. It tells you were the rifts are because they visited them in the course of the adventures, but it doesn't give you any details beyond it - for example RC was trying to get details on the pyramid defences from O-Chul, indicating the diary was mum on that as well.

Grey Wolf

Although it was (seemingly) clearer about the location of Girard's Gate then merely windy canyon - at least based on Xykon teleporting directly to the base of the pyramid.

[deltamire]

That the Gate is miles and miles away would be consistent with Serini, but not with Kragor. Unless it's miles away in the lair of the sleeping Tarrasque.
Kragor was dead before the gate was built (he in fact died during the conflict to seal the gates, according to #276) so unless he had some as of yet unknown post-mortem instructions for Serini, it can be pretty safely assumed it was built to her specification, as panel 8 of #277 would suggest.

[RblDiver]

Not sure if already said, but I feel like Durkon's best path forward at this point is to kill Redcloak so he can actually talk to TDO, and then after a little bit resurrect him and try again.

[Skull the Troll]

That the Gate is miles and miles away would be consistent with Serini, but not with Kragor. Unless it's miles away in the lair of the sleeping Tarrasque.

Oh I doubt its miles and miles away. They would want the statue to be near where he died at least. I agree that it would be what Serini thinks Kragor would have wanted, specifically in terms of strength. But she was a rogue, in love with an illusionist, and she thought she'd make a good paladin. There's really no telling what she did. My bet is, when the truth is revealed, is that it was clever.

[understatement]

Not sure if already said, but I feel like Durkon's best path forward at this point is to kill Redcloak so he can actually talk to TDO, and then after a little bit resurrect him and try again.

Somehow I would not bet on a 13th level cleric winning against a 17th+ cleric.

***

Who should show up first: Xykon, the bugbears, or the Order?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Who should show up first: Xykon, the bugbears, or the Order?

Maxrah.


Monty: Dad, is there a word to describe answers that are completely correct but entirely useless under the circumstances?
Prof. Jones: Yes, yes there is.

Now, who'll show up next? That's an open question.

Grey Wolf

[Riftwolf]

Redcloak: fighting for the concept of goblins, rather than the goblins themselves.
Ive seen some people talk about Xykon overhearing; what about the bugbears? Who were, like, right there five strips ago? Hearing how quickly TDOs lackey dismisses the proposal of peace with the dwarves and goblin betterment would hurt their relationship a bit.

[Fyraltari]

I suppose I agree with all of that and the previous posters comments about how it would be revealed when the statue moved. I suppose where my head was in a place where I saw the rift was above ground so its going to be difficult (but not impossible) for it to be very far underground now. Xykon is using Serini's Diary for this so she was at least smart enough to not write down which door it was or otherwise directly indicate how to find the gate. I dont think its outside the realm of possibility the whole thing is a false flag but I agree its not the statue.

Serini has clearly done some landscaping since the background of the crayons panels look different from this one.

[dancrilis]

Not sure if already said, but I feel like Durkon's best path forward at this point is to kill Redcloak so he can actually talk to TDO, and then after a little bit resurrect him and try again.

That is a high risk plan.
1) Redcloak is more powerful then Durkon.
2) The Dark One might not be down for any plan but The Plan.
3) Xykon would look for him if they took the body/cloak.
3.1) Once Xykon found the cloak he would give it to a different goblin and likely continue the plan.
3.2) If Xykon didn't find the cloak he would likely take out his annoyance on someone - likely someone innocent.
4) Redcloak might not be willing to return (for whatever reason).
5) Risking Thor's plan might annoy Thor.
6) Redcloak when he returned might be happy to help - but not be level 17 any longer.
7) Redcloak when he returned might be happy to help and willing to help - and still hold a grudge against Durkon and his family.
8+) Others as needed.

[Shining Wrath]

Kragor was dead before the gate was built (he in fact died during the conflict to seal the gates, according to #276) so unless he had some as of yet unknown post-mortem instructions for Serini, it can be pretty safely assumed it was built to her specification, as panel 8 of #277 would suggest.

Serini built this gate protection system to honor Kragor, the strong dwarf. I'm saying that misdirection (the gate being miles away) would honor the thief, not the strong dwarf dude. Having to fight monster after monster as they open the wrong door honors both. Unless the gate is miles away and still protected by a big monster (the Tarrasque).

[Tvtyrant]

The only way they can convince RC now is to destroy Xykon so RC has no way forward, or for Xykon to reveal that he knows The Plan and has altered it so it won't work. Basically there has to be proof that the plan is well and truly dead for him to change now.

[Jasdoif]

If Durkon thought like Redcloak, he might have led with "Your Plan cannot succeed because the gods will stop it and very likely the way they stop it will result in the Dark One starving to death". The lack of evidence for that, though, is a sticking point.I think a bigger sticking point is that it wouldn't really help: If Redcloak believes the gods are so set on this world's status quo that they'll destroy it rather than let it be changed, then he isn't going to believe negotiations will get him anywhere.

[Fish]

Also I’m surprised the ruckuss hasn’t attracted Xykon yet.
I assume that it has. Xykon has excellent hearing. He may be quite interested to hear what Redcloak is talking about, so he might simply be listening.

It would be lovely to see Xykon show up, and Redcloak triumphantly announces they will destroy Durkon and Minrah, and Xykon says, "Yeah, no. I'll just watch a minute."

[Shining Wrath]

The only way they can convince RC now is to destroy Xykon so RC has no way forward, or for Xykon to reveal that he knows The Plan and has altered it so it won't work. Basically there has to be proof that the plan is well and truly dead for him to change now.

Even with Xykon dead or uncooperative, there are other high level spell casters in the world RC could try to recruit with the promise of Ultimate Power. Tarquin's friend Myron (?), for example. Removing Xykon delays The Plan, it does not render it impossible.

We may get the ultimate in plot twists - Xykon (racial +8 on Listen Checks) may have overheard Maxrah talking to Durkon, realize the Plan can't work, and tell RC the deal is off.

And when RC attacks Xykon in fury, the instructions to MitD kick in, and RC is devoured.

[dancrilis]

The only way they can convince RC now is to destroy Xykon so RC has no way forward, or for Xykon to reveal that he knows The Plan and has altered it so it won't work. Basically there has to be proof that the plan is well and truly dead for him to change now.

Destroying Xykon doesn't mean The Plan can't work - Redcloak has an entire city of goblins now, he doesn't need a high level arcana caster he just needs an arcane caster - and all those guys casting Dancing Lights seem to qualify.

[Tvtyrant]

Destroying Xykon doesn't mean The Plan can't work - Redcloak has an entire city of goblins now, he doesn't need a high level arcana caster he just needs an arcane caster - and all those guys casting Dancing Lights seem to qualify.

Where are you getting that? I haven't seen any evidence that any old caster will work.

[understatement]

Destroying Xykon doesn't mean The Plan can't work - Redcloak has an entire city of goblins now, he doesn't need a high level arcana caster he just needs an arcane caster - and all those guys casting Dancing Lights seem to qualify.

The Plan does need a relatively high-level arcane caster, and the point of SOD was to stress why, exactly, Redcloak continues to work for Xykon.

[Fish]

And when RC attacks Xykon in fury, the instructions to MitD kick in, and RC is devoured.
I think it would be funnier for Xykon to kill Redcloak and raise him as a zombie cleric who will do Xykon's bidding.

Of course, I don't think that's likely to happen, because a) we have too much investment in Redcloak as a character and the choices he's made, b) the Dark One would never allow an undead Redcloak to access the power of his artifact, which moots the possibility of an end game where the Gate Ritual is performed, and c) Redcloak would get his narrative comeuppance for the wrong thing and for the wrong reasons. But it would still be funnier.

[b_jonas]

both about divine nourishment and the length of time the Snarl rampages before being restrained - are the most important details he could have shared in this negotiation, and not doing so was beyond stupid. That could have backfired. Redcloak may have responded by making sure that The Dark One gets the necessary nutrition sooner, even if that requires sacrificing goblins in another holy war for more devotion, so that the Dark One has more chance to survive the pause between the worlds.

I agree with who said it earlier: TDO listening in after his High Priest dropped some near epic magic would be an attention grabber. Plus, we know that the gods listen to their clerics even if the clerics don't know about it due to how Thor interacted with Durkon for, well, most of this comic. Redcloak probably cast such powerful spells at least occasionally in the dungeons while searching for the Gate. What would make this occasion more noticable? If there's someone who watches Redcloak during this, it's Xykon through the Teevoo or the IFCC demons through their blood plasma screen HDTV (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html), not TDO.

[hroþila]

Where are you getting that? I haven't seen any evidence that any old caster will work.


The Plan does need a relatively high-level arcane caster, and the point of SOD was to stress why, exactly, Redcloak continues to work for Xykon.
Right, but the thing is Redcloak could try to nurse a few browncloaks to get them to the required level. The question is: if Xykon was destroyed, would Redcloak despair, say screw it and get himself killed (perhaps by trying to destroy the last gate), or would he still be thinking first and foremost about how to bring the Plan to completion, in which case the browncloaks would be his best chance down the line?

Either possibility sounds likely to me at this point.

[ackmondual]

Ya know... I never 'really noticed' that when they use Thor's Might, the hammer also grows with it. I guess it's limited to clothes, equipment, and weapons of the caster.

Interesting to see if RC gets snuffed (though I wouldn't count on it. Mainly being it ain't that easy), or he "comes to his senses".

[dancrilis]

Where are you getting that? I haven't seen any evidence that any old caster will work.

Building the Gates need epic casters The Dark One's ritual seemingly only needs casters, but see below


The Plan does need a relatively high-level arcane caster, and the point of SOD was to stress why, exactly, Redcloak continues to work for Xykon.
How high exactly is relatively high-level.


My impression was around Redcloak's at the time he met Xykon.
Redcloak doesn't have a choice but to work with Xykon - initially because he was living in a swamp and had not been able to get any caster capable of cantrips seemingly, later because if he breaks faith with Xykon then he will get killed and at best the plan will continue with Xykon giving the cloak to someone else.


Right, but the thing is Redcloak could try to nurse a few browncloaks to get them to the required level.


Exactly - subject to what relatively high means, Redcloak has time.

[Jasdoif]

Right, but the thing is Redcloak could try to nurse a few browncloaks to get them to the required level. The question is: if Xykon was destroyed, would Redcloak despair, say screw it and get himself killed (perhaps by trying to destroy the last gate), or would he still be thinking first and foremost about how to bring the Plan to completion, in which case the browncloaks would be his best chance down the line?

Either possibility sounds likely to me at this point.Destroying the last Gate sounds like it'd qualify for both, honestly. He now knows the gods are aware of the Plan and that he has a part in it; producing a new arcane caster while he, personally, has a spotlight following him around is going to look doomed to failure. Better to force their hand before they amputate his.

[JSSheridan]

How likely is it that Xykon has cast Cloister on the area (and individuals therein?)

Also, let's not forget that if Durkon irrevocably screws this up, Loki will change his vote at the Godsmoot
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1177.html

[Doug Lampert]

Right, but the thing is Redcloak could try to nurse a few browncloaks to get them to the required level. The question is: if Xykon was destroyed, would Redcloak despair, say screw it and get himself killed (perhaps by trying to destroy the last gate), or would he still be thinking first and foremost about how to bring the Plan to completion, in which case the browncloaks would be his best chance down the line?

Either possibility sounds likely to me at this point.

He true resurrects Xykon. This removes the anti-casting disease which was why they Lichified Xykon in the first place, so he can now cast spells as a living sorcerer again, or they can re-lichify him if he now prefers to unlive that way.

Xykon's death does not stop Redcloak from using Xkyon to complete the plan. He would not start over with another caster even if there were one standing on his head yelling "Pick Me! Pick Me!", he'd convince himself that only Xykon was powerful enough.

He'd especially never use a goblinoid! What did all those goblins die for if he could have found a goblin caster instead?!

[Note: I don't expect to ever see True Resurrection in the comic, but this is a hypothetical argument anyway.]

Edited to add:

Also, let's not forget that if Durkon irrevocably screws this up, Loki will change his vote at the Godsmoot
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1177.html

No backsies. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html)

[Shining Wrath]

That could have backfired. Redcloak may have responded by making sure that The Dark One gets the necessary nutrition sooner, even if that requires sacrificing goblins in another holy war for more devotion, so that the Dark One has more chance to survive the pause between the worlds.
Redcloak probably cast such powerful spells at least occasionally in the dungeons while searching for the Gate. What would make this occasion more noticable? If there's someone who watches Redcloak during this, it's Xykon through the Teevoo or the IFCC demons through their blood plasma screen HDTV (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html), not TDO.

Or The Dark One could, like Thor, watch his high level clerics from time to time and not directly communicate with them while doing so. Thor only spoke to Durkon after Durkon was dead, but we know he knew who Durkon was and a lot about what he had been doing. It is not at all unheard of in fantasy stories that the gods are watching their chosen ones but take direct action only rarely.

[Jasdoif]

How likely is it that Xykon has cast Cloister on the area (and individuals therein?)Not very, since Vaarsuvius was able to contact Lien (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html).

[Ruck]

Hmm, well, I don't know if Xykon hears the ruckus or cares about it, but he's definitely going to notice the soon-to-be-smashed statue of Kraagor.

[Doug Lampert]

No backsies. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html)

Replying to myself. I have no doubt that in a real emergency, the gods have a way to get past the current stalemate. Probably someone simply introduces a new motion during the pause in the voting. Or maybe there's a rule that if the snarl actually gets loose all bets are off, and any ongoing meeting is cancelled till the start of the next world.

[hroþila]

Destroying the last Gate sounds like it'd qualify for both, honestly. He now knows the gods are aware of the Plan and that he has a part in it; producing a new arcane caster while he, personally, has a spotlight following him around is going to look doomed to failure. Better to force their hand before they amputate his.
That's a good point. Yeah, I think he wouldn't try his luck with the browncloaks at this point unless it was very, very obvious that destroying the last Gate is not a possibility.

He true resurrects Xykon. This removes the anti-casting disease which was why they Lichified Xykon in the first place, so he can now cast spells as a living sorcerer again, or they can re-lichify him if he now prefers to unlive that way.

Xykon's death does not stop Redcloak from using Xkyon to complete the plan. He would not start over with another caster even if there were one standing on his head yelling "Pick Me! Pick Me!", he'd convince himself that only Xykon was powerful enough.

He'd especially never use a goblinoid! What did all those goblins die for if he could have found a goblin caster instead?!

[Note: I don't expect to ever see True Resurrection in the comic, but this is a hypothetical argument anyway.
I don't think resurrecting Xykon would be an option. If he was destroyed, that means he was in his phylactery at some point, which means he knows Redcloak betrayed him.

[KorvinStarmast]

No; the main problem boils down to Durkon and Redcloak not knowing anything about the others' priorities and trying to act on their expectations instead. Durkon assumed Redcloak viewed people as his highest priority, like Durkon sees himself; Redcloak assumed Durkon was empowered by his god to accomplish his goals however he saw fit, like Redcloak sees himself. Not being on the same page they're basically talking past each other. Yep.

"I don't remember 'peaceful' being on my list of demands."

Redcloak was never going to be happy with peaceful co-existence. It isn't enough to get what he wants via a compromise. He wants to WIN, he sees this as a contest in which all non-goblins have to lose in order for him to win. Only now he thinks that even if he loses, everyone else does as well. Flip the table, scatter the pieces, we have to start over from scratch.

In his mind, either Redcloak wins or everyone loses. Zero sum game approach, roughly.

Which is funny, because I'm remembering TDO's only direct message to Redcloak: "Don't screw this up" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html).

I'm now picturing a smash cut to TDO's plane where he's face palming and saying "He screwed this up." Heh; if that's in 2012 it would be so funny.

Not sure if already said, but I feel like Durkon's best path forward at this point is to kill Redcloak so he can actually talk to TDO, and then after a little bit resurrect him and try again. Xykon gets a vote on that; not seeing this happening.

Even with Xykon dead or uncooperative, there are other high level spell casters in the world RC could try to recruit with the promise of Ultimate Power. Tarquin's friend Myron (?), for example. Vaarsuvius, even. :smalleek:

I think it would be funnier for Xykon to kill Redcloak and raise him as a zombie cleric who will do Xykon's bidding. It would also be (1) poetic justice and (2) consistent with Xykon's schtick from waay waay back in book 1.

[Peelee]

But would you give it more damage than the statue « unarmed »?

I thought I had already covered that with the "lazy DMing" line.:smallwink:

But if you want an actual answer as if you were at my table and this came up, I would argue that the stone weapon would function similarly to a normal weapon, in that it allows for greater leverage and thus greater impact force/damage. If you had brass knuckles and a brass hammer, swinging the brass hammer would have more impact force/damage than punching with the brass knuckles. So then it becomes a "how to stat it" issue, and since it'd be already conveniently in the form of a greataxe, let's just use those stats and swap bludgeoning damage in slashing damage's place.

[Phantom Thief]

I'm not sure why Redcloak thinks having the world destroyed and the Dark One be around for the next cycle is necessarily a win condition for him.

If one of Redcloaks compatriots decided to try and completely **** everything up for him, would he give them more power, or would he do whatever he could to make sure they never had the power to hurt him again?

Well we know the answer to that, because that's what Tsukiko did.

So if the gods know that the Dark One and goblins in general tried to genocide all the other gods in the universe, does he really think they're going to make a better world for goblins next time around? Put them on equal footing with the other player races? I think it far more likely that theyd cripple goblins even further, if they bothered to greate new goblins at all.

[Gitman00]

I just had an idea of how this could go that wouldn't be a total disaster for Durkon and Minrah.

They actually defeat Redcloak, but leave him alive, and explain to him that they can't kill him because they need him for Thor's plan. This might give Redcloak enough pause to reconsider the offer. It wouldn't change his mind right away, but it could plant a seed.

Admittedly the odds aren't in favor of Durkon and Minrah winning the fight, but it would be an interesting possibility.

[skim172]

Redcloak sticks with Xykon for the same reason he sticks to "The Plan" - he's in too deep to give it up now. If he cut ties with Xykon now, then he'd have to confront the fact that all those things he's done - especially that thing - were futile, misguided, and wrong.

And he can't bear that.

[Phantom Thief]

Recloak has mentioned a couple of times that the only form of communication he has with the Dark One is his daily spell allotment, and that he considers his divine spells to be confirmation that his god approves of his current path.

So I guess we will see "tomorrow" what the Dark One makes of this development. If he gives Redcloak spells, I guess that means he agrees with his assessment or hes a jerk who doesnt care about saving the world.

If he *doesn't* give Redcloak spells tomorrow though, I wonder how he would react to that.

Actually wait, can the Dark One see this? If that's the case, would Durkons mission sort of already be a success? Thor couldnt communicate his intentions to the Dark One himself, but if he can see all this happening, then the message has been delivered, right?

[Rogar Demonblud]

For someone who started out as a fighter, Minrah is outclassing Durkon in rhetoric! Not sure if that reflects a successful diplomacy check (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm) or a superior intelligence score (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#intelligenceInt).

Personality comes under Charisma, which makes sense. Look at how she's charmed the Playgrounders.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Boy is the rift doing a great job of staying hidden in the statue right now. Or maybe it's in the pedestal! :smalltongue:

Seriously, Redcloak does make good points about why he does not accept Durkon's deals; probably something that Durkon should note if future negotiations ever come back on the table. Minrah's conversation is a great addition here and makes a nice contrast to how Durkon and Redcloak talk. I like the (likely) usage of Mass Death Ward in the fight.

[Jasdoif]

So if the gods know that the Dark One and goblins in general tried to genocide all the other gods in the universe, does he really think they're going to make a better world for goblins next time around?As far as Redcloak knows, the Dark One would be among "they" at that point. He's the one who'd be making the next world a better place for goblins, and the other gods would go along with it because the whole point of the collaborative worldbuilding is so they don't create another Snarl by fighting over the creation of the world. If one god can dictate the general existence of ninjas (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html), it's not a stretch to imagine another could dictate the general existence of goblins.

[The MunchKING]

I think it would be funnier for Xykon to kill Redcloak and raise him as a zombie cleric who will do Xykon's bidding.

Needs to be something Wiser than a Zombie (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html)...

[Shining Wrath]

As far as Redcloak knows, the Dark One would be among "they" at that point. He's the one who'd be making the next world a better place for goblins, and the other gods would go along with it because the whole point of the collaborative worldbuilding is so they don't create another Snarl by fighting over the creation of the world. If one god can dictate the general existence of ninjas (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html), it's not a stretch to imagine another could dictate the general existence of goblins.

And hence a conundrum presents itself for The Dark One - the other gods need him and can't punish him because of The Snarl. But if he cooperates and lends the fourth quididity color and seals the Snarl away forever, he's now just another god, in a single-deity pantheon, who did in fact intend to use the threat of deicide as a weapon, and the other gods need not fear releasing the Snarl if they deal with him expeditiously.

Maybe they don't kill him. Maybe they put him in some sort of god-box, similar to how they contain the Snarl, and only bring him out if they ever need to seal the Snarl away again. Maybe a nice god-box, so he's not too uncooperative.

[dancrilis]

If one god can dictate the general existence of ninjas (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html), it's not a stretch to imagine another could dictate the general existence of goblins.

I could see one of them who gets to go first deciding to be the one to do it (assuming they thought he would care).

[Jacky720]

And hence a conundrum presents itself for The Dark One - the other gods need him and can't punish him because of The Snarl. But if he cooperates and lends the fourth quididity color and seals the Snarl away forever,
Not forever, just for a few thousand years.


he's now just another god, in a single-deity pantheon, who did in fact intend to use the threat of deicide as a weapon, and the other gods need not fear releasing the Snarl if they deal with him expeditiously.

Maybe they don't kill him. Maybe they put him in some sort of god-box, similar to how they contain the Snarl, and only bring him out if they ever need to seal the Snarl away again. Maybe a nice god-box, so he's not too uncooperative.
The issue with that is that he has very high standards and "unable to interact with anything except when the other gods tell me to help with this problem that they made" is well, well beneath those. No matter how nice the box is, it won't suit TDO's demands, and if it doesn't suit his demands, no four-quiddity seals for you.

[Shining Wrath]

Not forever, just for a few thousand years.


The issue with that is that he has very high standards and "unable to interact with anything except when the other gods tell me to help with this problem that they made" is well, well beneath those. No matter how nice the box is, it won't suit TDO's demands, and if it doesn't suit his demands, no four-quiddity seals for you.

His bargaining position is weak (assuming that the other deities, collectively, can god-box him, which we don't actually know). If he doesn't cooperate, he goes back into the box, and the gods go back to the system that worked for eons - remake the world every few thousand years.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1177.html Panel 5 indicates that Loki believes that with the help of TDO the gods can seal the Snarl away forever. So the Dark One really does have to trust the other gods to not punish him once the threat of the Snarl is gone. He needs to seek some sort of guarantee enforceable once the Snarl is sealed away, and the sad fact is, the gods he needs to rely on are his fellow evil gods, who are not the most trustworthy lot.

[Phantom Thief]

l
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1177.html Panel 5 indicates that Loki believes that with the help of TDO the gods can seal the Snarl away forever. So the Dark One really does have to trust the other gods to not punish him once the threat of the Snarl is gone. He needs to seek some sort of guarantee enforceable once the Snarl is sealed away, and the sad fact is, the gods he needs to rely on are his fellow evil gods, who are not the most trustworthy lot.


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html

Thor indicates that the permanency of the seals will only apply to the seals themselves, and new holes can still appear in the wold elsewhere. They need to keep spot welding them shut, meaning the Dark One would still be needed for a *while* at the very least. Enough time for him to ensure a pro goblin world order and possibly make alliances to protect himself.

[dancrilis]

His bargaining position is weak (assuming that the other deities, collectively, can god-box him, which we don't actually know). If he doesn't cooperate, he goes back into the box, and the gods go back to the system that worked for eons - remake the world every few thousand years.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1177.html Panel 5 indicates that Loki believes that with the help of TDO the gods can seal the Snarl away forever. So the Dark One really does have to trust the other gods to not punish him once the threat of the Snarl is gone. He needs to seek some sort of guarantee enforceable once the Snarl is sealed away, and the sad fact is, the gods he needs to rely on are his fellow evil gods, who are not the most trustworthy lot.

If they attack him then the risk creating a 2-4 colour Snarl so probably not worth seeking to punish him, so the current world ended? big deal now they have a new one, so he threatened them? well Hel did that to Loki he in turn did it to Thor - The Dark One was just more developed in his thinking.

So unless they think he will sit around like the snarl while they weave a cage around him he is likely safe enough.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The guarantee he'll have is the desire to not create a second Snarl, especially since they wouldn't be able to lock that one away since the Threads of Reality are already busy containing the First Snarl.

Really, Durkon's best move probably would've been to tell Redcloak to pass on the message that The Dark One needed to borrow a copy of Da Rulez from someone (Tiamat seems to be the only one who's still talking to him) so he can bone up on at least some of the stuff he doesn't know.

[Shining Wrath]

If they attack him then the risk creating a 2-4 colour Snarl so probably not worth seeking to punish him, so the current world ended? big deal now they have a new one, so he threatened them? well Hel did that to Loki he in turn did it to Thor - The Dark One was just more developed in his thinking.

So unless they think he will sit around like the snarl while they weave a cage around him he is likely safe enough.

Evidently gods do have the power to harm one another - Loki's threat to Thor that "you'll never see me coming" doesn't sound like empty posturing. And Papa Odin may not be as befuddled as Hel hopes. It is not completely out of the question that both TDO and Hel could wind up punished in some fashion. Since Thor and Hel are shown arguing over which one of them gets particular dwarven souls, I wonder if a collective decision of the other gods can say "We're starving you to death - no dead people's souls for you!".

[Riftwolf]

Boy is the rift doing a great job of staying hidden in the statue right now. Or maybe it's in the pedestal! :smalltongue:

What if Kraagors Gate is, like, metaphorical? What if there's a rift in all of us?

Do we have information about the size of Kraagors Gate? From memory, Dorukan and Girard had similar sized ones, Lirians was slightly smaller but still larger than a man, Soons was thumb sized.

[Peelee]

What if Kraagors Gate is, like, metaphorical? What if there's a rift in all of us?

The real rifts were the animosities we made along the way.

[Lemarc]

Evidently gods do have the power to harm one another - Loki's threat to Thor that "you'll never see me coming" doesn't sound like empty posturing. And Papa Odin may not be as befuddled as Hel hopes. It is not completely out of the question that both TDO and Hel could wind up punished in some fashion. Since Thor and Hel are shown arguing over which one of them gets particular dwarven souls, I wonder if a collective decision of the other gods can say "We're starving you to death - no dead people's souls for you!".

Thor and Loki, Hel and Odin are of the same quiddity. Thor was unwilling to even talk to TDO in person because of the possibility of slightest disagreement creating a two-colour Snarl, panel 10 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html).

[Wizard_Lizard]

Well that was a nice comic, I like where it's going. Minrah is pretty cool.

[skim172]

Boy is the rift doing a great job of staying hidden in the statue right now. Or maybe it's in the pedestal! :smalltongue:.

Has anyone yet brought up the possibility that the rift isn't there at all?

Like, maybe it's actually the South Pole instead of the North. This is all a massive distraction - the real gate is down in Antarc-Stick-a, protected by a horde of dire penguins.

[The MunchKING]

Has anyone yet brought up the possibility that the rift isn't there at all?

Like, maybe it's actually the South Pole instead of the North. This is all a massive distraction - the real gate is down in Antarc-Stick-a, protected by a horde of dire penguins.

With knives and peg legs? :smallcool:

[dancrilis]

Has anyone yet brought up the possibility that the rift isn't there at all?

Yes.
It is dismissed as a possibility unless the rift is not actually relevant to the rest of the story - in which case it doesn't matter where it is.

[Fyraltari]

I love how the thicker outlines on Maxrah make it clear that this isn’t a normal large creature, but a medium creature, enlarged.

Nice artwork detail!

Nice catch!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yes.
It is dismissed as a possibility unless the rift is not actually relevant to the rest of the story - in which case it doesn't matter where it is.

It would also require that Serini's diary - which has been accurate practically to the meter where every other rift is concerned - is somehow wrong by the diameter of the planet when it comes to this location. And if you posit that, for whatever reason, Serini lied in her own diary, she would've had to purposely mis-record the trip. So if the started, say, in the forest rift, she'd had to record a completely different trip from the one they took, since instead of travelling a relatively short distance from the Elven lands, across an ocean and over the dwarven realm (which is what the diary would've had to record), they instead traveled south through a desert, then onto the south pole. The times, distances, climate and adventures would not match at all.

Grey Wolf

[Snails]

What if Kraagors Gate is, like, metaphorical? What if there's a rift in all of us?

We are quite past meta-four-ical. This is the fifth and final Gate.

[Peelee]

I love how the thicker outlines on Maxrah make it clear that this isn’t a normal large creature, but a medium creature, enlarged.

Nice artwork detail!
Larger creatures have thicker lines (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1134.html).

[b_jonas]

(assuming that the other deities, collectively, can god-box him, which we don't actually know) I don't think the other gods could seal The Dark One away though. At least that's how I read the Giant's post from 2013-01-04 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=14473844). Also, they can seal away the Snarl only because “The Snarl was a thing born of chaos. It did not understand the pattern of the threads, even as it watched them take form around him. / It did not grasp the implicit purpose of the gods creation... / ...To trap it in a prison of manifested reality.” (#275 first and second panel) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html) I don't think that work on the Dark One, because he's not a being of pure chaos with inflexible alignment.


Larger creatures have thicker lines (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1134.html). They do, but I'd rather use #1075, showing human Roy and a Frost Giant as the example, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1075.html) because Thor takes the form of a variable-sized human, not of a giant.

[dancrilis]

It would also require that Serini's diary - which has been accurate practically to the meter where every other rift is concerned - is somehow wrong by the diameter of the planet when it comes to this location. And if you posit that, for whatever reason, Serini lied in her own diary, she would've had to purposely mis-record the trip. So if the started, say, in the forest rift, she'd had to record a completely different trip from the one they took, since instead of travelling a relatively short distance from the Elven lands, across an ocean and over the dwarven realm (which is what the diary would've had to record), they instead traveled south through a desert, then onto the south pole. The times, distances, climate and adventures would not match at all.

Grey Wolf

Well I did cut down the quote I was responding to to be merely the part I was replying to:

Has anyone yet brought up the possibility that the rift isn't there at all?

Effectively this could be true if the gate was off by only a few miles, which would not be a great distance on for the planet and keep most of the diary the same.

[Mandor]

They're gonna need to get the heck out of Dodge, REAL fast, or both clerics are likely to go down vs an annoyed Xykon.

Interesting on the animation of Kraggor's statue.
More than one poster speculated the Gate might be inside it, but I do not believe simple stone would bind the gate and move it's physical location, so I think we can discard that idea.

[JSSheridan]

This is not Serini’s Gate, it’s Kraagor’s it was built to honor his belief in strength. Having the Gate hidden in plain sight would disrespect his memory.


What if that's all part of Serini's bluff?

Also, does anyone think that if Xykon heard that the gods were about to recycle the world, he'd actually be smart enough to hold up and negotiate?

As I see it, Durkon has these "Lose Conditions"

- Durkon dies (instant loss)

- OotS routed by Team Evil (instant loss)

- Redcloak dies (instant loss)

- Durkon screws up so badly that Loki decides to change his vote in the next round (not an instant loss, but it becomes nigh inevitable)

[Riftwolf]

We are quite past meta-four-ical. This is the fifth and final Gate.

So it's meta-fifth-ical?

[dancrilis]

Also, does anyone think that if Xykon heard that the gods were about to recycle the world, he'd actually be smart enough to hold up and negotiate?


I do wonder what Durkon would think of the deal:
Xykon gets to rule the world, the gods endorse this, Redcloak provides the spell.

I also wonder what Thor would think of it.
Snarl dealt with - no high cost for the gods, sounds like a win.

[understatement]

What if that's all part of Serini's bluff?

Also, does anyone think that if Xykon heard that the gods were about to recycle the world, he'd actually be smart enough to hold up and negotiate?

As I see it, Durkon has these "Lose Conditions"

- Durkon dies (instant loss)

- OotS routed by Team Evil (instant loss)

- Redcloak dies (instant loss)

- Durkon screws up so badly that Loki decides to change his vote in the next round (not an instant loss, but it becomes nigh inevitable)

Second option is getting worringly closer, but by the power of narrative it'll be the least likely to happen.

Also, if Durkon dies it's curtains for the Order.


I do wonder what Durkon would think of the deal:
Xykon gets to rule the world, the gods endorse this, Redcloak provides the spell.

I also wonder what Thor would think of it.
Snarl dealt with - no high cost for the gods, sounds like a win.

Considering Xykon is evil and cruel enough to go around personally killing every single worshipper of the gods, severely depowering them, then yeah I think they'd have a problem.

[Fyraltari]

What if that's all part of Serini's bluff?
Then that'd still be a stupid risk. Because as the hider you need to be right about how the seeker thinks every time, while the seeker only have to be right once.

Aaaand that wouldn't account for someone just blasting the statue in anger.


Also the facts that (A) forumites keep suggesting that and (B) The Giant consistently outsmarts this forum makes me confident that this won't happen.

Also also, the statue just moved without either exposing or breaking the Gate.

[Squire Doodad]

I might be late to the party, but I think this is effective confirmation that the statue itself is not holding the rift. Think back to it being explained that Azure City can't move the sapphire.

[JSSheridan]

Also the facts that (A) forumites keep suggesting that and (B) The Giant consistently outsmarts this forum makes me confident that this won't happen.

Also also, the statue just moved without either exposing or breaking the Gate.

Not the statue, but in a broader sense

Granted, we don't know what Serini was like, but since she was saddled with this responsibility, if she were pragmatic rather than sentimental, she'd defend it her way

[FlyingSealion]

Since we were talking about why Redcloak should believe Durkon and how a more convincing argument could be made, I’ll just throw this out there:

I think Redcloak did believe Durkon.

Straight up. No threats to the dark one needed. I think Durkon convinced him that making a deal with him was the best possible option, but that in Redcloak’s horrifically skewed cost-benefit analysis the relief of working with Durkon just wasn’t worth the emotional toll on himself. Obviously I don’t have an inner monologue or anything to back that up, but the way he turned around and the expression right before he cast implosion all looked to me like a guy who really wanted to shake Durkon’s hand but realized that for whatever reason (coughsunkcostcough) he couldn’t, and wasn’t going to.

This following argument just feels like Redcloak doing what he always does: he comes to a predetermined decision based on his sunk cost fallacy, and then afterwards frantically tries to put together any justification he can find to make his choice seem logical/morally tolerable so that he can live with it. ‘I don’t believe you and also I never said I wanted peace’ is just a variation on ‘well maybe I am the one controlling XYKON, actually’. It’s why he drew the implosion out so long, he wanted to ask Durkon how many goblins he’s killed specifically so that Redcloak could more easily justify killing him, and therefore invalidate his offer.

Honestly, looking at the last few pages I’m not sure logic is ever going to change Redcloak’s mind, because logic isn’t what put him in this situation. Grief/hatred got him invested in the plan to begin with, guilt/fear locked him in with Xykon, and I feel like he’s been running on nothing but anger and spite for the last several years. Even his list of demands are kind of vague and difficult to imagine how they’d be met. More and more The Plan seems less like a concrete roadmap to helping goblin kind and more like lip service designed to keep angry goblins lashing out in an acceptable direction.

Which I guess is what Righteye said way back in SOD but, you know, that didn’t mean much until he was validated

Anyways my point is that I’m starting to suspect the only way to win over Redcloak at this point is to make his current path just as emotionally unbearable as deviating from it would be, so that logical appeals will actually work. Now I’m not sure how you do that, but killing Xykon or putting the literal fear of god into him might be good places to start.

[sihnfahl]

Granted, we don't know what Serini was like, but since she was saddled with this responsibility, if she were pragmatic rather than sentimental, she'd defend it her way
What if her way IS to play a shell game?

The challenges still honor Kraagor, as they do defend the gate by knocking out the folks who think it's just another Epic Dungeon Crawl; when an Epic-Level lich says he gained XP from the encounters inside, and a cleric that can cast level 9 spells doesn't want to risk another run, you KNOW they were rough...

Gate's hidden elsewhere. Serini just put a big 'pay attention to me' sign on schmuck-bait.

[Olinser]

I do wonder what Durkon would think of the deal:
Xykon gets to rule the world, the gods endorse this, Redcloak provides the spell.

I also wonder what Thor would think of it.
Snarl dealt with - no high cost for the gods, sounds like a win.

The gods would probably agree to it. They care about the Snarl, not this particular world.

REDCLOAK would never agree to Xykon ruling, and neither would TDO. They don't give two copper pieces about Xykon, and they are well aware of what a total disaster him ruling the world would be for goblins (and everybody else, but they don't care about that). Xykon has zero power in this negotiation, he has nothing to offer, and nobody would trust his word anyway.

Now, REDCLOAK ruling the world is something that he and TDO would agree to, and the gods might agree. It's easy to see why. Redcloak has a very finite lifespan (to the gods), and once he's gone then its back to normal.

And even if its longer, so what? Gods can plan for millennia, and there are quite a few demigods and new gods around in the pantheons, it seems like its really not that tough to raise up demigods and gods to existing pantheons. Then they can just let Redcloak rule the world for a while until TDO assists the raising of another god, then they either help that god knock over TDO and sieze control of the Purple and then negotiate with them instead. Or more sneakily, since TDO doesn't seem to be aware of the actual risk to gods between Snarl attacks, they could arrange with their worshippers to stock the new god up with enough power to survive, THEN hold a Godsmoot and vote 3-1 to destroy the world, let TDO expire, and deal with the new god for creating of the new world.

[dancrilis]

Now I’m not sure how you do that

You have Xykon co-opt the ritual and kill The Dark One (while also unleashing the Snarl on the souls of all dead goblins), and if will all be his fault as he not only enabled all of it he faciliated the actual mechanism by which the lich acted.

Or such is my off the wall expectation.



REDCLOAK would never agree to Xykon ruling

As he has sold it to Xykon it is The Plan - so he would either have to agree (and hope for the best) or explain to his friend that The Plan is actually a little bit different and I don't know if he has it in him for that.

[Olinser]

What if her way IS to play a shell game?

The challenges still honor Kraagor, as they do defend the gate by knocking out the folks who think it's just another Epic Dungeon Crawl; when an Epic-Level lich says he gained XP from the encounters inside, and a cleric that can cast level 9 spells doesn't want to risk another run, you KNOW they were rough...

Gate's hidden elsewhere. Serini just put a big 'pay attention to me' sign on schmuck-bait.

Xykon has Serini's diary, which already gave explicit and correct locations of every other Gate. It's possible, but HIGHLY unlikely, that she would put down the correct locations for every other Gate in her diary, and lie about only her own.

That said, only the statue moved. That's an awfully large pedestal he was standing on, I would not be particularly surprised if its lead sheet coated and the Gate is actually UNDER the statue. Xykon and Redcloak weren't present for Girard's Gate, they don't know about the bluff on it. I don't think so, though.



I personally think that this is an elaborate version of The Lost Woods from Zelda games (or the Tower of Genji from A Wheel of Time) - where you can wander around what seems to be a very large area and fight monsters in distinct locations, but the only way to get to the actual objective is to follow a very specific set of movements through the area, even sometimes going so far as going back in the same way you entered in some cases.

i.e., they can try every single door individually and it won't work. They have to pick the right SEQUENCE of doors to get to the Gate.

[woweedd]

Sigh Durkon, you overestimated Redcloak's sanity.

[understatement]

Okay, in the past 8 strips or so...

The details of the Plan? In 830 and 1206. Check.

The backup plan of the Plan? This comic. Check.

The fodder narrative for goblins? 1208. Check.

The Plan's goals? 1208 & 1209. Check.

All that's needed is:


*Redcloak's village being massacred by the SG
*him killing his brother, and the surrounding context


to complete the cycle of SOD to main.

[TRH]

I guess one argument to support the Gods being willing to destroy the world that Redcloak couldn't necessarily dismiss out of hand would be the point that they need souls to power themselves, and stand to lose those if the Snarl runs amok. Not that that alone would be enough to talk Redcloak down now, but it'd be something.

[Mad Humanist]

I wonder if Durkon could still write down the Summon Proxy spell. That actually would be pretty good proof of what they are saying. The problem is that Redcloak could then just use it for the Purple Pantheon to vote to destroy the world.

[dancrilis]

*Redcloak's village being massacred by the SG



Not in the last few comics but he has mentioned this in panel 10 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html).


I wonder if Durkon could still write down the Summon Proxy spell. That actually would be pretty good proof of what they are saying. The problem is that Redcloak could then just use it for the Purple Pantheon to vote to destroy the world.

The Dark One had no standing in any Godsmoot (panel 10 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html)).

[Mad Humanist]

The Dark One had no standing in any Godsmoot (panel 10 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html)).

That would not mean that the spell would not work. So maybe that is how Durkon will win this argument.

[dancrilis]

That would not mean that the spell would not work. So maybe that is how Durkon will win this argument.

I was more replying to the idea that he could use it for a vote.

[JSSheridan]

You have Xykon co-opt the ritual and kill The Dark One (while also unleashing the Snarl on the souls of all dead goblins), and if will all be his fault as he not only enabled all of it he faciliated the actual mechanism by which the lich acted.

Or such is my off the wall expectation.



As he has sold it to Xykon it is The Plan - so he would either have to agree (and hope for the best) or explain to his friend that The Plan is actually a little bit different and I don't know if he has it in him for that.

I don't know that RC had ever told a non-goblin that he thinks the gods ending the world is an okay alternative

He must be sure that these two will be killed

It could make it complicated for RC if these two survive

[dancrilis]

I don't know that RC had ever told a non-goblin that he thinks the gods ending the world is an okay alternative

He must be sure that these two will be killed

It could make it complicated for RC if these two survive

I like guessing - my odd ball theory on this one is that Minrah will die, Durkon will not.

Durkon will however escape with enough of her to resurrect - she will effectively report to Thor on the progress and Durkon can deal with the guilt of leading someone to their death (as Roy did if you want to compare Roy's reaction to dying with Roy's reaction of Durkon dying).

[understatement]

That would not mean that the spell would not work. So maybe that is how Durkon will win this argument.

Why would Durkon have the Proxy spell? Only High Priests have it (else they wouldn't be high priests).


I like guessing - my odd ball theory on this one is that Minrah will die, Durkon will not.

Durkon will however escape with enough of her to resurrect - she will effectively report to Thor on the progress and Durkon can deal with the guilt of leading someone to their death (as Roy did if you want to compare Roy's reaction to dying with Roy's reaction of Durkon dying).

So...Durkon doesn't already have enough guilt with leading the death of his homeland? Minrah has already died once. If she dies again, it's not going to be now.

[dancrilis]

So...Durkon doesn't already have enough guilt with leading the death of his homeland?

I don't really think Durkon feels that much guilt over that - and frankly it wasn't his fault and he did everything he could to minimise harm.



Minrah has already died once. If she dies again, it's not going to be now.
Durkon died twice (thrice if you count non-Durkon), but you are probably right that she will be fine - (to memory) I was one of the people that thought that O-Chul was likely going to die back during Vaarsuvius's attack on Xykon (although I did predict Durkon's death well before it happened - so not always wrong).

[TheNecrocomicon]

So it's meta-fifth-ical?

*Inflationary language intensifies* (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmpLUezDzoo)

[hungrycrow]

I like guessing - my odd ball theory on this one is that Minrah will die, Durkon will not.

Durkon will however escape with enough of her to resurrect - she will effectively report to Thor on the progress and Durkon can deal with the guilt of leading someone to their death (as Roy did if you want to compare Roy's reaction to dying with Roy's reaction of Durkon dying).

We already saw how dwarves react to deaths differently than Roy did. Durkon would know that Minrah would just be hanging with Thor, satisfied that she died helping save to world. There's not a lot of pathos to be mined there.

[Anitar]

So, I feel like there's something curious about the pedestal there. We haven't seen it at any point when Rock Kraagor (or "RK") wasn't on top of it. And for some reason, Redcloak's magic considers it a separate object from RK itself. Which is quite curious, considering that they were connected. It's almost like RK was designed to be removed (probably by physical force, not by making it walk away on its own). It's almost like removing it does something important to the freshly-unoccupied pedestal... I'll give it 40-60 odds that this is about to make a difference somehow.

EDIT: Wait, what am I thinking? The term for Kraagor carved out of rock is obviously Cragor.




Now, REDCLOAK ruling the world is something that he and TDO would agree to, and the gods might agree. It's easy to see why. Redcloak has a very finite lifespan (to the gods), and once he's gone then its back to normal.

The Mantle gives him an indefinite lifespan. Just like the gods themselves, except that he'd be much easier to kill.

[RatElemental]

Neither: it's a crayon. It's a story being told. If Soon said "and the custody of the sapphire passed hands", you might picture that scene, when it was meant only in the figurative sense, and the sapphire was on the throne all along.



Unless snarl space comes with its own afterlife, no, dying and going to the good afterlife is still better than being taken to a planet devoid of life and then dying of starvation and then not going to an afterlife (or going to one where your soul is slowly dissolved into the snarl). In short, it takes a lot of added supposition to prefer being consumed by the Snarl to cushy afterlife.

Grey Wolf

That wasn't the gate, it was a sapphire enchanted to reinforce the gate that was already in the throne (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?212022-What-was-Soon-Holding-(Possibly-Spoilerish)/page3&p=11686931#post11686931).

[Jacky720]

So, I feel like there's something curious about the pedestal there. We haven't seen it at any point when Rock Kraagor (or "RK") wasn't on top of it. And for some reason, Redcloak's magic considers it a separate object from RK itself. Which is quite curious, considering that they were connected. It's almost like RK was designed to be removed (probably by physical force, not by making it walk away on its own). It's almost like removing it does something important to the freshly-unoccupied pedestal... I'll give it 40-60 odds that this is about to make a difference somehow.

EDIT: Wait, what am I thinking? The term for Kraagor carved out of rock is obviously Cragor.
We haven't seen the pedestal without the statue because that's not how you design statues. Redcloak's spell didn't affect the pedestal because Redcloak deemed it more efficient to give his new rock warrior legs than to give it a pedestal.

[understatement]

I don't really think Durkon feels that much guilt over that - and frankly it wasn't his fault and he did everything he could to minimise harm.

If Minrah dies here, Durkon is wise enough to know it's not his fault, because it isn't. Minrah chose to come along this mission and was willing to accept the risks.

[BriarHobbit]

The fight has begun with unseen reserves in the wings. Red Cloak's mind is likely to change after the scheme of IFCC is revealed. For now, he is willing to stick with the Plan.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

What if Kraagors Gate is, like, metaphorical? What if there's a rift in all of us?

I can think of one individual (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html) who would answer "yes" to your second question.

[Yirggzmb]

We haven't seen the pedestal without the statue because that's not how you design statues. Redcloak's spell didn't affect the pedestal because Redcloak deemed it more efficient to give his new rock warrior legs than to give it a pedestal.

Although if the strip was still going for mostly pure humor angle, the statue coming to life still attached to the pedestle could have been good for a few laughs. Either trying to swing at people who are smart enough to stay out of range, or else hopping around in comical fashion.

[The MunchKING]

Why would Durkon have the Proxy spell? Only High Priests have it (else they wouldn't be high priests).

I mean it's a Cleric spell, so in theory any Cleric can learn it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Clerics don't learn spells. Their boss decides to lend them some of their divine power.

[The MunchKING]

Clerics don't learn spells. Their boss decides to lend them some of their divine power.

Well "learn it". They've got to ask for it unless the God/dess is feeling particularly interventionist.

[Particle_Man]

If the statue is medium than arming it with a battle axe would give it 1d8 damage rather the 1d6, a large statue would move from 1d8 to 2d6.
It could still use its second slam attack.
However the statue would not seem to be proficient in any weapons so it would likely be a bad trade.

If I am reading everything correctly (also think there are rules for stone weapons somewhere but can't remember where).

Yeah but I doubt the creators of the statue were thinking "You know, on the off-chance that someone animates this statue one day, we should carve a weapon in its hands."


And hence a conundrum presents itself for The Dark One - the other gods need him and can't punish him because of The Snarl. But if he cooperates and lends the fourth quididity color and seals the Snarl away forever, he's now just another god, in a single-deity pantheon, who did in fact intend to use the threat of deicide as a weapon, and the other gods need not fear releasing the Snarl if they deal with him expeditiously.

I think that TDO would actually have a relatively large share of the power pie if TDO plays ball. TDO is the sole vote of an entire pantheon, and Godmoots seem to be run on a "vote by pantheon" basis. So TDO has 25% of any future Godsmoot votes assuming TDO does not sponsor or create any other gods or demigods of TDO's quiddity. That isn't ultimate power, but it is more relative voting power than any other individual God. And it is a voting block that other Gods cannot interfere with because they don't want to create another Snarl.

Mind you, that would, for the first time ever, raise the possibility of what to do if 2 pantheons vote "yes" and the other 2 pantheons vote "no" on a particular binary question. I wonder what the tie-breaker mechanism would be in that case? OTOH, perhaps they already have one for Godsmoot questions that have 3 or more answers?

[Wowlock]

Ah Redcloak, you are the reason why Goblins won't be a 'proper' race...if you are the best representative for their 'well-being'. He truly lived up to the ''Evilly stupid'' steriotype.

[Sebastian]

It would also require that Serini's diary - which has been accurate practically to the meter where every other rift is concerned - is somehow wrong by the diameter of the planet when it comes to this location. And if you posit that, for whatever reason, Serini lied in her own diary, she would've had to purposely mis-record the trip. So if the started, say, in the forest rift, she'd had to record a completely different trip from the one they took, since instead of travelling a relatively short distance from the Elven lands, across an ocean and over the dwarven realm (which is what the diary would've had to record), they instead traveled south through a desert, then onto the south pole. The times, distances, climate and adventures would not match at all.

Grey Wolf

A rogue being good at lying? preposterous.

Yet, it would be appropriate.

Serini was/is a rogue and rogues are good at lying and deception. What better way for a rogue to defend the gate than build a huge life-like decoy, full of traps and monsters and what-not... and then put the gate in another place altogether?

Do you remember what Haley said somewhere (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) about the three shell game? "the con is in getting you to pick a shell at all" If the target have a chance to win you are doing it wrong. The gate is not beyond door n.1 or n.2 or n.1000, the gate is in your pocket.

You know, this literally came to me while I was typing this post, but it would be just perfect.:biggrin:

[Fyraltari]

A rogue being good at lying? preposterous.

Yet, it would be appropriate.

Serini was/is a rogue and rogues are good at lying and deception. What better way for a rogue to defend the gate than build a huge life-like decoy, full of traps and monsters and what-not... and then put the gate in another place altogether?

Do you remember what Haley said somewhere (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) about the three shell game? "the con is in getting you to pick a shell at all" If the target have a chance to win you are doing it wrong. The gate is not beyond door n.1 or n.2 or n.1000, the gate is in your pocket.

You know, this literally came to me while I was typing this post, but it would be just perfect.:biggrin:

Ah yes, The rogue so good at lying she gives the exact coordinates to four of the five objects that stops the world from being unmade. I mean that’s just good planning innit? Everyone knows that the best way to secure a house is to put a dozen locks on a big iron doors and let the floor-level windows wide open!

Let’s do something utterly stupid! They’ll never see it coming!

[Sebastian]

Ah yes, The rogue so good at lying she gives the exact coordinates to four of the five objects that stops the world from being unmade. I mean that’s just good planning innit? Everyone knows that the best way to secure a house is to put a dozen locks on a big iron doors and let the floor-level windows wide open!

Let’s do something utterly stupid! They’ll never see it coming!

That is part of the deception, you put correct information about everything, except the crucial detail. If she put fake coordinates for the other gates they would not have trusted those for her gate, the one she was supposed to protect. After all it isn't like the other gates where undefended or her diary was public domain.

(in your analogy, she didn't let the window open, she just gave the house address. Which was still a little dumb, but she could have seen it as a calculated risk)

[greenfunkman]

Here's my prediction for where Redcloak's story arc is going, for what it's worth. (i e - nothing) ::biggrin::

Redcloak will be convinced of the threat to TDO and try to directly communicate to his deity the danger. He learns that the REAL plan is to use the gates and the Snarl to kill all the gods, this dooming everything. I think this is what will prompt Redcloak's 'redemption' - self preservation.

[dancrilis]

Ah yes, The rogue so good at lying she gives the exact coordinates to four of the five objects that stops the world from being unmade. I mean that’s just good planning innit? Everyone knows that the best way to secure a house is to put a dozen locks on a big iron doors and let the floor-level windows wide open!

In fairness she could put in in a dungeon like the others but just not give that dungeon a front door leading into it - if she wanted to be tricky.

To use your analogy: best way to secure valuables is to put a dozen locks on a big iron doors for every room of the house and the hide the valuables in a secret room somewhere inside it.

But again I doubt she did this or something like it unless the location of the Gate itself is not overly important to the story The Giant is telling.

[greenfunkman]

A rogue being good at lying? preposterous.

Yet, it would be appropriate.

Serini was/is a rogue and rogues are good at lying and deception. What better way for a rogue to defend the gate than build a huge life-like decoy, full of traps and monsters and what-not... and then put the gate in another place altogether?

Do you remember what Haley said somewhere (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) about the three shell game? "the con is in getting you to pick a shell at all" If the target have a chance to win you are doing it wrong. The gate is not beyond door n.1 or n.2 or n.1000, the gate is in your pocket.

You know, this literally came to me while I was typing this post, but it would be just perfect.:biggrin:

Hmm if this is true, then where is the gate? Surely we've already seen it if so. Would Elan be able to work it out through his OP knowledge of narrative?

[Fyraltari]

That is part of the deception, you put correct information about everything, except the crucial detail. If she put fake coordinates for the other gates they would not have trusted those for her gate, the one she was supposed to protect. After all it isn't like the other gates where undefended or her diary was public domain.

(in your analogy, she didn't let the window open, she just gave the house address. Which was still a little dumb, but she could have seen it as a calculated risk)

So, you think that the one advocate of « let’s not fight each other guys, if we can’t work together like we should, we should at least not undermine each other » deliberately weakened the defenses of the other Gates in order to « strengthen » hers? Forgive me, if I don’t find that plausible.

I put strengthen in quotes there because if it were not for the diary, Team Evil wouldn’t have known Serini even had a Gate since they didn’t even have a number of Gates to start with. It’s almost like this diary was written before the author realized how important what they were doing would turn out to be and isn’t part of the defenses.

[Morty]

A rogue being good at lying? preposterous.

Yet, it would be appropriate.

Serini was/is a rogue and rogues are good at lying and deception. What better way for a rogue to defend the gate than build a huge life-like decoy, full of traps and monsters and what-not... and then put the gate in another place altogether?

Do you remember what Haley said somewhere (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) about the three shell game? "the con is in getting you to pick a shell at all" If the target have a chance to win you are doing it wrong. The gate is not beyond door n.1 or n.2 or n.1000, the gate is in your pocket.

You know, this literally came to me while I was typing this post, but it would be just perfect.:biggrin:

Bluff is a class skill for rogues, not a class feature. There's no requirement for a rogue to be good at deception or willing to use it. Haley is well-versed in cons and scams because she used to be a criminal, raised in a crime-ridden city. And the shell game during the siege was implemented by a cleric.

[deworde]

Can't wait for the book description on this part. Rich's reasons for X are always the best part.

I think someone else is going to end up wearing the cloak by the end of this.

[Fyraltari]

Can't wait for the book description on this part. Rich's reasons for X are always the best part.

I think someone else is going to end up wearing the cloak by the end of this.

Recloak’s scarecrow once he retires to a farm having achieved what he set out to do?

[greenfunkman]

Recloak’s scarecrow once he retires to a farm having achieved what he set out to do?

Wouldn't it be nice if this all ended with Redcloak and a nice goblin girl settled down somewhere?

It seems unlikely though.

Edit: hehe just saw your /s tags after quoting

[hroþila]

Okay, in the past 8 strips or so...

The details of the Plan? In 830 and 1206. Check.

The backup plan of the Plan? This comic. Check.

The fodder narrative for goblins? 1208. Check.

The Plan's goals? 1208 & 1209. Check.

All that's needed is:


*Redcloak's village being massacred by the SG
*him killing his brother, and the surrounding context


to complete the cycle of SOD to main.
There's also
Xykon mind-controlling the MitD to eat Redcloak if he ever betrays Xykon.
I suppose we don't know for sure that is going to be relevant, but still.

[Scizor]

Since we were talking about why Redcloak should believe Durkon and how a more convincing argument could be made, I’ll just throw this out there:

I think Redcloak did believe Durkon.

Straight up. No threats to the dark one needed. I think Durkon convinced him that making a deal with him was the best possible option, but that in Redcloak’s horrifically skewed cost-benefit analysis the relief of working with Durkon just wasn’t worth the emotional toll on himself. Obviously I don’t have an inner monologue or anything to back that up, but the way he turned around and the expression right before he cast implosion all looked to me like a guy who really wanted to shake Durkon’s hand but realized that for whatever reason (coughsunkcostcough) he couldn’t, and wasn’t going to.

This following argument just feels like Redcloak doing what he always does: he comes to a predetermined decision based on his sunk cost fallacy, and then afterwards frantically tries to put together any justification he can find to make his choice seem logical/morally tolerable so that he can live with it. ‘I don’t believe you and also I never said I wanted peace’ is just a variation on ‘well maybe I am the one controlling XYKON, actually’. It’s why he drew the implosion out so long, he wanted to ask Durkon how many goblins he’s killed specifically so that Redcloak could more easily justify killing him, and therefore invalidate his offer.

Honestly, looking at the last few pages I’m not sure logic is ever going to change Redcloak’s mind, because logic isn’t what put him in this situation. Grief/hatred got him invested in the plan to begin with, guilt/fear locked him in with Xykon, and I feel like he’s been running on nothing but anger and spite for the last several years. Even his list of demands are kind of vague and difficult to imagine how they’d be met. More and more The Plan seems less like a concrete roadmap to helping goblin kind and more like lip service designed to keep angry goblins lashing out in an acceptable direction.

Which I guess is what Righteye said way back in SOD but, you know, that didn’t mean much until he was validated

Anyways my point is that I’m starting to suspect the only way to win over Redcloak at this point is to make his current path just as emotionally unbearable as deviating from it would be, so that logical appeals will actually work. Now I’m not sure how you do that, but killing Xykon or putting the literal fear of god into him might be good places to start.

I think you are entirely right in this assessment. I bet ten quatloos that this will show up, if not in the comic itself, then at least it will be heavily expounded upon in the author commentaries.

[Riftwolf]

Prediction for the statue: Durkon and Minrah smash it and find bones inside. Not sure what they'd do with this information though (don't think resurrection has the range to revive someone dead 60 years?).

[dancrilis]

... (don't think resurrection has the range to revive someone dead 60 years?).

It does - but it can't resurrect someone who has had their soul unmade by the Snarl (as far as we know).

[Shining Wrath]

Xykon has Serini's diary, which already gave explicit and correct locations of every other Gate. It's possible, but HIGHLY unlikely, that she would put down the correct locations for every other Gate in her diary, and lie about only her own.

That said, only the statue moved. That's an awfully large pedestal he was standing on, I would not be particularly surprised if its lead sheet coated and the Gate is actually UNDER the statue. Xykon and Redcloak weren't present for Girard's Gate, they don't know about the bluff on it. I don't think so, though.



I personally think that this is an elaborate version of The Lost Woods from Zelda games (or the Tower of Genji from A Wheel of Time) - where you can wander around what seems to be a very large area and fight monsters in distinct locations, but the only way to get to the actual objective is to follow a very specific set of movements through the area, even sometimes going so far as going back in the same way you entered in some cases.

i.e., they can try every single door individually and it won't work. They have to pick the right SEQUENCE of doors to get to the Gate.

I am going with "Serini wrote her diary in real time and didn't intend the contents to ever be public, and certainly not part of the defenses of the Gates".
I do like your idea that the only way to reach the Gate is to open the correct doors, plural, in the correct sequence. If there are 1,000 doors and you need to open 5, that's 1 chance in 1000**5 or 10**15 of ever picking (assuming doors can be reused).



Recloak’s scarecrow once he retires to a farm having achieved what he set out to do?

Sarcasm noted, but seriously, I don't think Rich wants to take them time to develop a character to Redcloak's level of reader engagement. He's the high priest of TDO for the rest of the story.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

A rogue being good at lying? preposterous.

Yet, it would be appropriate.

Serini was/is a rogue and rogues are good at lying and deception. What better way for a rogue to defend the gate than build a huge life-like decoy, full of traps and monsters and what-not... and then put the gate in another place altogether?

Do you remember what Haley said somewhere (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) about the three shell game? "the con is in getting you to pick a shell at all" If the target have a chance to win you are doing it wrong. The gate is not beyond door n.1 or n.2 or n.1000, the gate is in your pocket.

You know, this literally came to me while I was typing this post, but it would be just perfect.:biggrin:

No.

This is not a document about the gates. It is her diary. The diary where she wrote down her adventures. Where she admitted she had the hots for this or that companion. There isn't an entry of "here are the coordinates for the gates" - the only way you can deduce where every gate is is by following along her adventures. Because the diary was written during the adventures, long before they understood they'd be splitting up due to their differences and each picking one rift to defend. It makes exactly 0 sense that she would record everything correctly except the one location she happened to end up assigned to.

Grey Wolf

[Worldsong]

A rogue being good at lying? preposterous.

Yet, it would be appropriate.

Serini was/is a rogue and rogues are good at lying and deception. What better way for a rogue to defend the gate than build a huge life-like decoy, full of traps and monsters and what-not... and then put the gate in another place altogether?

Do you remember what Haley said somewhere (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) about the three shell game? "the con is in getting you to pick a shell at all" If the target have a chance to win you are doing it wrong. The gate is not beyond door n.1 or n.2 or n.1000, the gate is in your pocket.

You know, this literally came to me while I was typing this post, but it would be just perfect.:biggrin:

As has been pointed out by Haley, the problem with equating this situation to the shell game is that Haley explained the secret behind the shell game because Xykon and Redcloak were the ones pulling a con on the Azurites and the Order of the Stick.

Redcloak and Xykon both have a firm grasp on the concept of trickery and deception. And other villains would also know a thing or two about lying. Serini's trick wouldn't have to work once or twice, it would have to work every single time that someone tries to find her Gate.

Now this might work if Serini had control over the position of the Gate and could just place it somewhere where it was unlikely anyone would ever accidentally stumble upon it. However Serini had to work with a rift which couldn't be moved and hovered above ground level at Medium height. In such a situation where you have to defend something which can't be moved, rather than relying on nobody ever stumbling upon it because you misdirected them to another location, you're better off fortifying the position as much as possible.

In addition the only reason Xykon, Redcloak and Oona are making headway is because Xykon is an epic level sorcerer lich and Redcloak is a near-epic level evil cleric. And the MitD might also be helping out for all we know which would most likely be a huge boost in combat power.

Given that the encounters are dangerous enough for Xykon to get XP nearly every other villain would probably have been squashed already. It's just that Team Evil is so freaking tough that there aren't a lot of things which can hold them back forever.

Cons can be very useful for certain situations, but they're not always the best answer. That's why most adventuring parties make sure brute force is also available.

[Kruploy]

Redcloak is such a boss.
How long until Xykon comes along and together they pop some good guy popcorn?
Just like old times.

[KorvinStarmast]

We are quite past meta-four-ical. This is the fifth and final Gate. Ooh, nice.

Also, does anyone think that if Xykon heard that the gods were about to recycle the world, he'd actually be smart enough to hold up and negotiate? {snip}

- Durkon screws up so badly that Loki decides to change his vote in the next round (not an instant loss, but it becomes nigh inevitable) Interesting idea on Xykon, but on Loki, No Backsies rule (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html) has already been confirmed.


So it's meta-fifth-ical? Punny, that is. :smallcool:

I think Redcloak did believe Durkon.

Straight up. No threats to the dark one needed. I think Durkon convinced him that making a deal with him was the best possible option, but that in Redcloak’s horrifically skewed cost-benefit analysis the relief of working with Durkon just wasn’t worth the emotional toll on himself.
Obviously I don’t have an inner monologue or anything to back that up, but the way he turned around and the expression right before he cast implosion all looked to me like a guy who really wanted to shake Durkon’s hand but realized that for whatever reason (coughsunkcostcough) he couldn’t, and wasn’t going to. That was my take on it as well.

We haven't seen the pedestal without the statue because that's not how you design statues. Thank you. Sometimes, a pedestal is just a pedestal.
I can think of one individual (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html) who would answer "yes" to your second question . I just grokked a nice little pun that Durkon dropped there. Something about how corpses are cryptic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html) when answering speak with the dead questions. Crypts are where dead people are buried ... thanks for the link that allowed me to enjoy that strip again.
Ah Redcloak, you are the reason why Goblins won't be a 'proper' race...if you are the best representative for their 'well-being'. He truly lived up to the ''Evilly stupid'' steriotype. Hmm, Redcloak is plenty intelligent. His elementals made of elements from the periodic table is a great reflection of that. He's a nerd that nobody likes (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html). (For him, a guess on charisma as a dump stat is a good guess). Also, insofar as smart people making bad choices, well, I have walked at least one mile in those boots. :smallfrown:
Redcloak will be convinced of the threat to TDO and try to directly communicate to his deity the danger. He learns that the REAL plan is to use the gates and the Snarl to kill all the gods, this dooming everything. I think this is what will prompt Redcloak's 'redemption' - self preservation. And his second experience of crushing despair. (*The first being documented near the end of SoD).

It is her diary. The diary where she wrote down her adventures. Where she admitted she had the hots for this or that companion. There isn't an entry of "here are the coordinates for the gates" - the only way you can deduce where every gate is is by following along her adventures. Because the diary was written during the adventures, long before they understood they'd be splitting up due to their differences and each picking one rift to defend. It makes exactly 0 sense that she would record everything correctly except the one location she happened to end up assigned to.
I wonder how many people still keep diaries? I kept a daily journal for a couple of years, to include my first two major deployments in the Navy (to the Mediterranean) but unfortunately, the box that they were in disappeared in a move. (Yeah, that was frustrating).

I am still betting on Serini being alive, and having retired to enjoy her last years surrounded by her grandchildren.

[sihnfahl]

Xykon has Serini's diary, which already gave explicit and correct locations of every other Gate. It's possible, but HIGHLY unlikely, that she would put down the correct locations for every other Gate in her diary, and lie about only her own.
No, that's not what I'm saying.

They're on the right city block. They see the apartment building.

The diary leads them to believe that the object is in one of the apartments.

They just don't know which apartment the object is in, and they can't just peer through a window into the apartments; they have to go through the door of each apartment to look inside, and the occupants of said apartment have lots of guns and are willing to use them.

But the actual object they want? You have to go through the manhole into the sewer that services the apartment building...

[Jaziggy]

Two thoughts:

1. Durkon made the right move not bringing up the TDO death theory (and it's just a theory, even from Thor). It's always better in negotiations to make an emotional connection with your negotiating partner and to persuade them based on what's important in their perspective.

2. I don't feel like RC's heart is really in this fight. It certainly was when he dropped the implosion, going for a quick splat of an isolated foe, but the spells he's casting here suggest to me he's trying to drive them away or stall for reinforcements.

[KorvinStarmast]

It certainly was when he dropped the implosion, going for a quick splat of an isolated foe, but the spells he's casting here suggest to me he's trying to drive them away or stall for reinforcements. With Oona around (some kind of ranger?) I'm going to guess that the noise will attract her attention.

[dancrilis]

2. I don't feel like RC's heart is really in this fight. It certainly was when he dropped the implosion, going for a quick splat of an isolated foe, but the spells he's casting here suggest to me he's trying to drive them away or stall for reinforcements.

Harm is a solid spell against someone not protected from it - and he might have a lot of negative energy spells (and the statue might not be the only thing he animated - assuming Animate Object is the same as Animate Objects).

[Peelee]

Harm is a solid spell against someone not protected from it - and he might have a lot of negative energy spells (and the statue might not be the only thing he animated - assuming Animate Object is the same as Animate Objects).

Also, it's a 2-on-1 fight. Statue makes it 2-on-2, which helps Redcloak a huge amount regarding action economy. That's high payoff for low investment, and is absolutely a great choice on his part.

[understatement]

Assuming the statue is medium-sized, isn't its CR only 2, though? Or am I reading the SRD completely wrong?

At least this cleric duel has special effects.

[dancrilis]

Also, it's a 2-on-1 fight. Statue makes it 2-on-2, which helps Redcloak a huge amount regarding action economy. That's high payoff for low investment, and is absolutely a great choice on his part.

Agreed (in all likelihood).


Assuming the statue is medium-sized, isn't its CR only 2, though? Or am I reading the SRD completely wrong?

At least this cleric duel has special effects.

That is where it might depend on if the spell cast was the equivalent of Animate Objects (in which case Redcloak might have created a sizeable force), or if Animate Object is a different spell in which case the statue might be a lot more powerful (perhaps the equivalent of a stone golem or similiar).

[danielxcutter]

To be honest I’ve always thought of that spell as horribly underpowered, though at lower levels it could work.

That being said if you choose the right object the actual CR tends to be seriously underrated; an adamantine statue is still only something like CR 1.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I wonder how many people still keep diaries? I kept a daily journal for a couple of years, to include my first two major deployments in the Navy (to the Mediterranean) but unfortunately, the box that they were in disappeared in a move. (Yeah, that was frustrating).

Calling it now: if some monocled cat owner uses your diary to find out where the navy superweapons are stored, and uses them to blow up the world, I'm putting some of the blame on you for misplacing the damn thing.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

No.

This is not a document about the gates. It is her diary. The diary where she wrote down her adventures. Where she admitted she had the hots for this or that companion. There isn't an entry of "here are the coordinates for the gates" - the only way you can deduce where every gate is is by following along her adventures. Because the diary was written during the adventures, long before they understood they'd be splitting up due to their differences and each picking one rift to defend. It makes exactly 0 sense that she would record everything correctly except the one location she happened to end up assigned to.

Grey Wolf

I mean the coordinates are written down in her diary. Even if in code.