Could Durkon make Redcloak a Vampire?

[tomaO2]

Durkon learned the vampire creation spell from being a vampire. Could he kill Redcloak, turn him into a vampire, and then command the Vamp!Redcloak to do what he wants?

I'm not really sure how the dynamic works, but I think there is some level of forced obedience in the spell? There was a massive change in Vamp!Durkon after his master died.

They didn't obey Durkon after he became a dwarf again, but I'm unsure if that is because they don't have to obey non vampires or if the obedience was specifically for Vamp!Durkon.

[Gift Jeraff]

The spell speeds up the vampirization process which normally takes 2-4 nights. The victim still needs to be killed by blood or energy drain from a vampire.

[dancrilis]

The spell was to hasten the process of becoming a vampire - not to turn a corpse into a vampire.
The control was part of being a vampire and creating a new one.
Even if he could there is no guarantee that the vampire spirit that inhabited Redcloak would worship The Dark One.


So no Durkon cannot make Redcloak a vampire and even if he could it likely wouldn't help.

[tomaO2]

Oh. My bad then. Thanks for the infomation

How many vampires can one vampire make again? Like, that was a ton of vampires Vamp!Durkon's group made.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Durkon learned the vampire creation spell from being a vampire. Could he kill Redcloak, turn him into a vampire, and then command the Vamp!Redcloak to do what he wants?

No, he didn't. He learnt a spell that reduces the speed by which a corpse that was drained to 0 constitution by a vampire becomes a vampire from 1d4 days (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) to instantaneous. But you still need a corpse drained to 0 constitution by a vampire for the spell to work, and since Durkon is no longer a vampire, he can't create vampires.

That's even before going into the fact that Thor would probably never grant that spell in the first place.

Grey Wolf

[understatement]

I'll go out on a limb here and propose the radical theory that Redcloak isn't becoming a vampire.

Mechanically: all the vamps created in the Firmament are lower level than Redcloak. He can rebuke them.

Story: No.

(Actually, a vampirized Redcloak would be kind of cool...)

[Gift Jeraff]

Oh. My bad then. Thanks for the infomation

How many vampires can one vampire make again? Like, that was a ton of vampires Vamp!Durkon's group made.

1 vampire can make an unlimited amount of spawn, though the amount that they can control is limited by their level.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

1 vampire can make an unlimited amount of spawn, though the amount that they can control is limited by their level.

But each one you control can control their own, and there is no limit to how far down the pyramid can go, since each one can command up to twice their HD.

GW

[KorvinStarmast]

That's even before going into the fact that Thor would probably never grant that spell in the first place. And that Roy broke the staff that held the spell (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1022.html) when he returned it to the new HPoH once Durkula teleported to Firmament.

[Gift Jeraff]

And that Roy broke the staff that held the spell (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1022.html) when he returned it to the new HPoH once Durkula teleported to Firmament.

Vampire Durkon learned the spell and Durkon has all of the vampire's memories.

[tomaO2]

Anyone have an idea on what level spell this would be?

Also, I think there is a limit to the number of spells a cleric can learn, is that right? If yes, can you unlearn a spell to learn a new spell instead?[


But each one you control can control their own, and there is no limit to how far down the pyramid can go, since each one can command up to twice their HD.

GW

That's completely horrifying. They can't feed on animals, right? I guess sunlight and food are the two main things that stop them from taking over the world. That anti-sunlight spell could have been such a game changer.

[dancrilis]

Anyone have an idea on what level spell this would be?
Probably low enough, it is very niche - I am going to guess 6th, same level as create undead for a more powerful minion and quicker but a lot of other requirements have to be met first.



Also, I think there is a limit to the number of spells a cleric can learn, is that right? If yes, can you unlearn a spell to learn a new spell instead?
No - they get all cleric spells at levels they can cast no learning necessary, they just have to pick which ones they have access to daily.

[tomaO2]

But... they research spells? Does that mean all mass death wards are available to everyone now?

[dancrilis]

But... they research spells? Does that mean all mass death wards are available to everyone now?

I suppose I should have said 'all non-custom cleric spells', how you want to consider that is up to you:
1) you can only ask for spells you know about.
2) you need to figure out how to ask for specific spells - and if they are rare you might not know how.
3+) others.

[RMS Oceanic]

I suspect a Vamp'd Redcloak would no longer worship the Dark One and thus no longer have access to purple quiddity.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I suspect a Vamp'd Redcloak would no longer worship the Dark One and thus no longer have access to purple quiddity.

The vampire spirit would be crafted by TDO, since he has dominion over goblins, and would be crafted to fit in RC's mind, so I'd put even money on that vampire being very pro-TDO, just as Greg was very pro-the deity that spawned it.

GW

[Peelee]

The vampire spirit would be crafted by TDO, since he has dominion over goblins, and would be crafted to fit in RC's mind, so I'd put even money on that vampire being very pro-TDO, just as Greg was very pro-the deity that spawned it.

GW

Yeah, as the only god, he's their death god and their fertility god and their knowledge god and their....

He should really look into expanding the pantheon, delegate some of those duties.

[dancrilis]

Yeah, as the only god, he's their death god and their fertility god and their knowledge god and their....

He should really look into expanding the pantheon, delegate some of those duties.

You are thinking he might just be too busy to talk to Redcloak?

[Doug Lampert]

Anyone have an idea on what level spell this would be?

Also, I think there is a limit to the number of spells a cleric can learn, is that right? If yes, can you unlearn a spell to learn a new spell instead?[



That's completely horrifying. They can't feed on animals, right? I guess sunlight and food are the two main things that stop them from taking over the world. That anti-sunlight spell could have been such a game changer.



Don't worry about it. Here's a list of the other SRD undead with spawn:

Shadows have spawn, incorporeal, touch attack strength drain, spawn in seconds, spawn are at full strength regardless of the creature killed with no limit on control, no dependence on the killed creature being high level. No particular vulnerabilities like to sunlight.

Spectres have spawn, incorporeal, touch attack that drains two levels, spawn in seconds, no limit on control, no dependence on the killed creature being high level. Limited actions in sunlight, but not destroyed.

Wraiths have spawn, LOOK! It's another incorporeal creature with a touch drain attack (constitution this time) that spawns in seconds, no limit on control, no dependence on the killed creature being high level, and not destroyed by sunlight.

Wights have spawn, FINALLY, something corporeal, so it takes full damage (like a vampire) and it needs to hit normal AC to drain (like a vampire), gosh, it's even the same CR as a vampire spawn! No limit on control, and no long delay before rising, but at least it's not blatantly better than vampire spawn. No vulnerability to sunlight.

Meanwhile vampire spawn, what the vast majority of vampire kills become, don't even have a spawn power.

Basically, even with BOTH of Malack's special spells available, vampires are the least threatening of the spawning undead.

[The Pilgrim]

Mmmh.. first Durkon needs Redcloak to be drained by a Vampire. So he needs to go back to Firmament and capture Curly.

Second, he needs Thor to grant him the Spell, as the Staff that originally contained it was foolishly broken by Roy. I suppose Durkon can make Thor understand the necessity of such extreme action and Thor may grant the Spell.

Since Redcloak was a Goblin, and goblins belong to The Dark One's portfolio, I suppose he's the one in charge of creating the dark spirit to inhabit the corpse. So the new vampire, let's call him Kaolcder, will remain as his cleric.

Now, Kaolcder is obedient to his master, Curly. So Durkon needs to control Curly and make her relay his orders to Kaolcder. Problem is, Durkon is a good cleric, he doesn't gets to command undead. And Necromancy is one of V's barred schools. So Durkon needs to find a wand or similar magic item that grants the ability to control/command undead. So a flight to Cliffport seems in order.

Mmmh... all things taken into account... if I'd had to rate the workability of this plan in a scale of 0 to 10 compared to the workability of plots from an average roleplayer group... I'd give it a... 6.

[Peelee]

You are thinking he might just be too busy to talk to Redcloak?

No, that was just some wisecracking.

Though it's not a half bad theory, now that you mention it...

[Doug Lampert]

Mmmh.. first Durkon needs Redcloak to be drained by a Vampire. So he needs to go back to Firmament and capture Curly.

Second, he needs Thor to grant him the Spell, as the Staff that originally contained it was foolishly broken by Roy. I suppose Durkon can make Thor understand the necessity of such extreme action and Thor may grant the Spell.

Since Redcloak was a Goblin, and goblins belong to The Dark One's portfolio, I suppose he's the one in charge of creating the dark spirit to inhabit the corpse. So the new vampire, let's call him Kaolcder, will remain as his cleric.

Now, Kaolcder is obedient to his master, Curly. So Durkon needs to control Curly and make her relay his orders to Kaolcder. Problem is, Durkon is a good cleric, he doesn't gets to command undead. And Necromancy is one of V's barred schools. So Durkon needs to find a wand or similar magic item that grants the ability to control/command undead. So a flight to Cliffport seems in order.

Mmmh... all things taken into account... if I'd had to rate the workability of this plan in a scale of 0 to 10 compared to the workability of plots from an average roleplayer group... I'd give it a... 6.

I tend to read posts that immediately follow mine, even if I have the poster on ignore.
I have no memory of WHY I had you on ignore. But thanks to this post, you're off the list.
+1 (and NO, that does not make it a 7).

[Fyraltari]

Vampire Redcloak is an interesting concept because given that Redcloak never really moved on from his worst day ever I’m not sure they’d be much change in personality.


That's completely horrifying. They can't feed on animals, right?

Yes they can, the Exaargh fed on Little Whisker when he stole the teleport orb.

[tomaO2]

Mmmh... all things taken into account... if I'd had to rate the workability of this plan in a scale of 0 to 10 compared to the workability of plots from an average roleplayer group... I'd give it a... 6.

While I didn't think it would have that many steps. That does sound like the sort of plan players would make if time wasn't a factor.

I suppose convincing Curly to help, in order that the world not be destroyed, is off the table? Hilgya can command undead. I believe you can cast spells that are normally not allowed to by using scrolls, which she could create, even if she is unwilling to come down and fight.

Sounds like it would be easier to just get a different cleric to cast a spell. Durkon could convert? Not that he's high level enough, but I guess an option like that could work.

Are spell scrolls granted by the god of the cleric that makes the scroll, or by the god of the cleric that casts from the scroll? Like, what if Redcloak has a 9th level spell scroll that he created, would Durkon casting it do the trick?

[Fyraltari]

The vampire spirit would be crafted by TDO, since he has dominion over goblins

i'm not sure that's true. Dwarves and hel are already intertwined because of the Bet, so I am not convince we can extrapolate from their case to other races. After all, there were goblins (and undead goblins) before there was a Dark One. It's possible that, with the exception of the Dwarves, the death-god that birth your vampire spirit is only dependent on what continent you are on.

[understatement]

While I didn't think it would have that many steps. That does sound like the sort of plan players would make if time wasn't a factor.

I suppose convincing Curly to help, in order that the world not be destroyed, is off the table? Hilgya can command undead. I believe you can cast spells that are normally not allowed to by using scrolls, which she could create, even if she is unwilling to come down and fight.

Hilgya can only Turn them, given Loki's distaste of the undead.


Sounds like it would be easier to just get a different cleric to cast a spell. Durkon could convert? Not that he's high level enough, but I guess an option like that could work.

The Dark One is unlikely to accept a non-goblin worshipper.


Are spell scrolls granted by the god of the cleric that makes the scroll, or by the god of the cleric that casts from the scroll? Like, what if Redcloak has a 9th level spell scroll that he created, would Durkon casting it do the trick?

There's five rifts that need to be sealed, and it's unlikely Redcloak has five 9th level scrolls when he could just cast the spells himself.

[dancrilis]

i'm not sure that's true. Dwarves and hel are already intertwined because of the Bet, so I am not convince we can extrapolate from their case to other races. After all, there were goblins (and undead goblins) before there was a Dark One. It's possible that, with the exception of the Dwarves, the death-god that birth your vampire spirit is only dependent on what continent you are on.

Cut to only show the relevant part, unless goblins fall under a pantheon other then The Dark One's he gets his say (presumedly, maybe nobody does).

Hel is able to put that spirit into Durkon's body because of the physical vampirization process that Malack enacts on Durkon's corpse, which opens a door to Negative Energy and traps Durkon's spirit inside it. Which would also be true of any other vampire created from a person who fell under the Northern Pantheon's domain, though she wouldn't take a personal interest in just any person because they wouldn't be a powerful cleric.

[Fyraltari]

Cut to only show the relevant part, unless goblins fall under a pantheon other then The Dark One's he gets his say (presumedly, maybe nobody does).

Yeah, but there's no confirmation that goblins automatically fall under the Dark One's monotheon. Maybe they metaphysically "belong" to the pantheon of the continent of birth or something.

[The Pilgrim]

While I didn't think it would have that many steps. That does sound like the sort of plan players would make if time wasn't a factor.

I suppose convincing Curly to help, in order that the world not be destroyed, is off the table? Hilgya can command undead. I believe you can cast spells that are normally not allowed to by using scrolls, which she could create, even if she is unwilling to come down and fight.

Sounds like it would be easier to just get a different cleric to cast a spell. Durkon could convert? Not that he's high level enough, but I guess an option like that could work.

Are spell scrolls granted by the god of the cleric that makes the scroll, or by the god of the cleric that casts from the scroll? Like, what if Redcloak has a 9th level spell scroll that he created, would Durkon casting it do the trick?

Curly is a cleric of Hel, thus she wants the world destroyed, as that's her Patron Deity's plan. Durkon can only make her collaborate by magic control. Fortunately, while Hel can deny Curly her spells, she can't deny her vampiric powers.

Hilgya can't command undead. Despite being the cleric of an Evil Deity, The Giant home ruled that she got to turn instead of rebuke because Loki hates the undead. So, no help there either.

Yeah, Durkon could convert. But, to whom? Loki doesn't grants command undead. Hel does, but Hel is not interested in helping saving the world, quite the opposite. Additionally, Durkon is Good, so he can't convert to an Evil Deity unless he becomes at least Neutral. He could convert to a Neutral Deity, but would be a Good cleric so he would still turn instead of rebuke.

An easy solution would be to adquire a Helm of Opposite Aligmnent. That would turn Durkon into CE on the spot and likely grant him the ability to rebuke/command undead. It would also help solve his relationship problem with Hilgya.

The issue you rasied regarding the scroll doesn't applies. Because both Command and Control Undead are Arcane Spells, not Divine. Redcloak can't scribe such a scroll, because his command undead ability comes from his rebuke undead, not from spells. A scroll of Control Undead is a Level 7 Arcane Spell worth 2.275 gp. Command Undead is Level 2 and costs only 150gp. They are fairly easier to find than a Helm of Opposite Aligment, so I suppose it's the best course of action for our Heroes.

[dancrilis]

Yeah, but there's no confirmation that goblins automatically fall under the Dark One's monotheon. Maybe they metaphysically "belong" to the pantheon of the continent of birth or something.

It is something I have considered before, primarally as I hold that The Dark One is lying about a lot of things Redcloak believes to be true.

However if your arguement is that:
The Goblins do not fall under The Dark One's domain.
Redcloak does not fall under The Dark One's domain.

I would be very dubious.

To cut the above further to make it more relevant to the above.:

Which would also be true of any other vampire created from a person who fell under the Northern Pantheon's domain

[Wizard_Lizard]

I think they were meaning Durkon could convert to The Dark One-ism.

[The Pilgrim]

I think they were meaning Durkon could convert to The Dark One-ism.

Durkon would still need to change alignment to at least LN for that. Even the Helm of Opposite Alignment wouldn't help there, as CE is removed two steps from LE (I'm assuming TDO is LE, as his domain is in Acheron, which is LN-LE).

It would be easier that V just sold her soul again for another Splice. That would grant her access to Epic Necromancy, so controlling the vampires wouldn't be a problem any longer. Then the Party would just need to go to firmament and locate Curly. An easy task for Darth V, who can teleport.

Mmhhh... I think I may be upgrading the plan to a 7...

[Peelee]

It would be easier that V just sold her soul again for another Splice.

V would need a buyer, and I highly doubt anyone would be willing to shell out for it.

[Fyraltari]

It is something I have considered before, primarally as I hold that The Dark One is lying about a lot of things Redcloak believes to be true.

However if your arguement is that:
The Goblins do not fall under The Dark One's domain.
Redcloak does not fall under The Dark One's domain.

I would be very dubious.

To cut the above further to make it more relevant to the above.:

All I'm saying is that we don't know the mechanics of which god gets to make vampires that well.

[tomaO2]

Yeah, but there's no confirmation that goblins automatically fall under the Dark One's monotheon. Maybe they metaphysically "belong" to the pantheon of the continent of birth or something.

I was under the impression that monsters didn't get a god to worship, since they were designed to be XP for adventurers in this setting. The only reason goblins can cast cleric spells is because of the Dark One to begin with. That's why those orcs worshipped an island, and then a doll. Not sure they are allowed to level either? I think there are normally a lot of restrictions on monster races.

Actually, I guess Durkon wanted to convert them to Thor. I believe I remember that. So maybe that's wrong. I don't think I've seen any monster race worshipping a god though (other than Dark One).

[dancrilis]

All I'm saying is that we don't know the mechanics of which god gets to make vampires that well.

I am thinking The Dark One - however it is possible that he doesn't know how to make vampire spirits and so it might be impossible to turn goblins into vampires, various DnD settings have had different vampire rules based on race (the daftest to memory was elven vampires who could not go out in the darkness).

[understatement]

I was under the impression that monsters didn't get a god to worship, since they were designed to be XP for adventurers. The only reason goblins can cast cleric spells is because of the Dark One to begin with. That's why those orcs worshipped an island, and then a doll.

Actually, I guess Durkon wanted to convert them to Thor. I believe I remember that. So maybe that's wrong. I don't think I've seen any monster race worshipping a god though (other than Dark One).

Dragons and kobolds worship Tiamat, and lizardfolk are seen at the Western Godsmoot.

[dancrilis]

I don't think I've seen any monster race worshipping a god though (other than Dark One).

Not-Durkon worshipped Hel, Malack worshipped Nergal, then there are seemingly some traditional 'monster' races in 999 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html) across multiple pantheons.

[tomaO2]

Dragons and kobolds worship Tiamat, and lizardfolk are seen at the Western Godsmoot.


Do kobloids count as a monster race in this setting? Maybe they are not seen as XP. I can recall several characters that fit in with society. I don't think dragons level, so they might have special rules.

The point of contention is that goblins will automatically be killed going into a town.

[Gift Jeraff]

Kobolds are included among Redcloak's story about the origins of the monster races in SoD.

[Fyraltari]

I am thinking The Dark One - however it is possible that he doesn't know how to make vampire spirits and so it might be impossible to turn goblins into vampires, various DnD settings have had different vampire rules based on race (the daftest to memory was elven vampires who could not go out in the darkness).

Problem is we know goblins can be turned into wights and both wights and vampires are controlled by a milgnent spirit of negative energy. It stands to reason that whoever makes goblin wight spirits also make goblin vampire spirirts. Now, we don't know that it was possible for goblins to be undead before the Dark One rose, but I assume it was.
I would also be surprised if it was impossible to make vampires of other monster races.
We know that goblins don't worship any other god than the Dark One but we don't know that they "fall under [his] domain" automatically. Aren't goblins from the North Northerners as well?

[understatement]

Problem is we know goblins can be turned into wights and both wights and vampires are controlled by a milgnent spirit of negative energy. It stands to reason that whoever makes goblin wight spirits also make goblin vampire spirirts. Now, we don't know that it was possible for goblins to be undead before the Dark One rose, but I assume it was.
I would also be surprised if it was impossible to make vampires of other monster races.
We know that goblins don't worship any other god than the Dark One but we don't know that they "fall under [his] domain" automatically. Aren't goblins from the North Northerners as well?


In Redcloak's crayon narrative, he mentions the Dark One "took control of the destinies of the goblinoids."

[Wizard_Lizard]

I'd be interested to know what race the cleric of Fenrir is, particularly as Fenrir is the Northern god of monsters.

[dancrilis]

I'd be interested to know what race the cleric of Fenrir is, particularly as Fenrir is the Northern god of monsters.

My unfounded assumption is he is a lycanthrope (probably a werewolf if I had to narrow unfounded assumptions down further).

[Fyraltari]

In Redcloak's crayon narrative, he mentions the Dark One "took control of the destinies of the goblinoids."


That’s vague beyond the point of usefulness.

[understatement]

That’s vague beyond the point of usefulness.

I assumed he handles all goblin deaths, regardless if they worship him or not.

[KorvinStarmast]

Vampire Durkon learned the spell and Durkon has all of the vampire's memories. Clerics don't memorize spells, do they?

[Fyraltari]

I assumed he handles all goblin deaths, regardless if they worship him or not.

Your assumptions are your own.

[RatElemental]

I suppose I should have said 'all non-custom cleric spells', how you want to consider that is up to you:
1) you can only ask for spells you know about.
2) you need to figure out how to ask for specific spells - and if they are rare you might not know how.
3+) others.

Fairly certain the rules just say only the cleric who researched the spell can prepare it, unless they share it with other clerics.

[dancrilis]

Fairly certain the rules just say only the cleric who researched the spell can prepare it, unless they share it with other clerics.

That would be effectively number '2', if you disagree you can place it under '3+', all of which were examples of 'how you want to consider that is up to you'.

[Peelee]

Fairly certain the rules just say only the cleric who researched the spell can prepare it, unless they share it with other clerics.

Which has always struck me as kind of weird. Mechanically, I get it, but fluff-wise, I never really figured out a good reason.

[RatElemental]

Which has always struck me as kind of weird. Mechanically, I get it, but fluff-wise, I never really figured out a good reason.

I guess you could think of it as the cleric figuring out a way to use the energy of one spell their god grants to cast a different one. 5e made it make a bit more sense, clerics can only research new spells after getting permission from their god and the god will usually remove their access to one of their other spells in exchange.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Which has always struck me as kind of weird. Mechanically, I get it, but fluff-wise, I never really figured out a good reason.

How about: wizards researching a spell are just figuring out how to manipulate raw magical energy into a new shape. Clerics, on the other hand, don't do manipulation on their end (that's the spontaneous healing/harming spell conversion thing). Instead, their communing every day is effectively describing their god (or appropriate go-between, or whatever) how they want the energy manipulated and sent to them. If they ask for, e.g. a manipulation out of bounds - like a good cleric asking for their god's energy shaped into necromantic shape - the god simply doesn't do it. But the shape still has to come from the cleric, so if they don't know about a shape, they can't ask for it.

Now it'd make sense that said cleric may confide the new shape they've figured out to other clerics of their own church... but they don't have to.

Grey Wolf

[Riftwolf]

various DnD settings have had different vampire rules based on race (the daftest to memory was elven vampires who could not go out in the darkness).

What setting was this? Because I have questions as to how that'd work...

[Goblin_Priest]

Durkon would still need to change alignment to at least LN for that. Even the Helm of Opposite Alignment wouldn't help there, as CE is removed two steps from LE (I'm assuming TDO is LE, as his domain is in Acheron, which is LN-LE).

It would be easier that V just sold her soul again for another Splice. That would grant her access to Epic Necromancy, so controlling the vampires wouldn't be a problem any longer. Then the Party would just need to go to firmament and locate Curly. An easy task for Darth V, who can teleport.

Mmhhh... I think I may be upgrading the plan to a 7...

If TDO is LE, that would explain CE bugbears not having clerics of him, and rather shamans as divine casters.

[dancrilis]

What setting was this? Because I have questions as to how that'd work...

Ravenloft, believe it was Denizens of Darkness that had the elven vampires who couldn't go out at night (and other strains).

[georgie_leech]

Ravenloft, believe it was Denizens of Darkness that had the elven vampires who couldn't go out at night (and other strains).

If it's just the going out at night part and not darkness in general, that doesn't seem too out there. I mean, that's pretty much just moon/starlight being as dangerous to them as the sun is for normal vampires.

Actually, come to think of it, given how tied to the moon and stars elves tend to be in various fantasy tales, that actually seems rather thematic.

[RatElemental]

I am thinking The Dark One - however it is possible that he doesn't know how to make vampire spirits and so it might be impossible to turn goblins into vampires, various DnD settings have had different vampire rules based on race (the daftest to memory was elven vampires who could not go out in the darkness).

You should see shadowrun's vampires. There's three different strains of the "monster" plague. One just turns everything into a ghoul, and the other two turned every single different PC race into a different kind of monster (and had distinct sets of monsters from each other to boot). The only things that could even be vampires were humans, and sometimes they turned into more grotesque things called nosferatu instead.

Goblins were actually one of the things these viruses turned dwarves into. Oddly enough, it was the strain that typically left the victim sentient and mostly the same personality wise, but for goblins it's still a debate if they're even still sentient. This goblin prejudice thing really goes deep in tabletop games.