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Greywander
2020-08-18, 06:32 PM
A while back, I posted a thread about wanting to build a trickster character, and I was trying to grab a lot of different features from different classes and bring them all together. At the time, someone suggested that homebrew might be the best way to gather all of those abilities together, rather than some crazy multiclass setup. Fast forward to the present, I've just finished writing up a Trickster patron for the warlock, which should get most of what I'm looking for. As always, feedback is always helpful for ironing out the kinks.


The Trickster
This may be a fey, aberration, fiend, or any number of other powerful entities. Regardless, the Trickster is a being who loves pranks and japes, and might range from good-natured to mean-spirited. Instead of raw power, they rely on cunning and mischief to achieve their ends, usually by manipulating others into unwittingly doing their bidding.

Expanded Spell List
The Trickster lets you choose from an expanded list of spells when you learn a warlock spell. The following spells are added to the warlock spell list for you.

Spell Level - Spells
1st - command, Tasha’s hideous laughter
2nd - Nystul’s magic aura, pass without trace
3rd - bestow curse, sending
4th - phantasmal killer, polymorph
5th - modify memory, seeming

Trickster’s Repertoire
Starting at 1st level, your patron bestows upon you gifts to create mischief. You learn the mage hand, minor illusion, prestidigitation, and vicious mockery cantrips. These count as warlock spells for you, and don’t count against the number of warlock cantrips you know.

If you already knew one or more of these cantrips, you may choose a different cantrip from the warlock list instead.

You may also cast the bane spell at-will, without expending a spell slot.

Innocuous Disguise
Beginning at 6th level, you can use your action to polymorph into a Large or smaller beast, a beast-hybrid form, or back into your true form. Your statistics are the same in each form, except for your size. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying isn’t transformed with you. You revert to your true form if you die.

In addition, you also gain a swim and climb speed equal to your walking speed.

Mind Games
Starting at 10th level, you can cast any of the cantrips granted to you by your Trickster’s Repertoire as a bonus action instead of an action. You also gain the following benefits for each of these cantrips:

Mage Hand. The hand is invisible, and you can use a bonus action to control the hand. You can also use the hand to make Dexterity(Sleight of Hand) checks.
Minor Illusion. You can create both an image and a sound with the same casting of the spell.
Prestidigitation. You can create two effects simultaneously with one casting of the spell.
Vicious Mockery. You may add your Charisma modifier to the damage roll, and a creature who fails their saving throw against this spell has disadvantage on the next saving throw they make before the end of your next turn.

You can also speak telepathically to any creature within 120 feet. You don’t need to share a language for a creature to understand your telepathic utterances, but the creature must be able to understand at least one language.

Just Popping In
When you reach 14th level, you gain a flying speed equal to your walking speed. In addition, you may cast misty step at-will.

With a Snap and a Flash
Beginning at 14th level, your warlock spells don’t require verbal or somatic components. Instead, you may pick a single word or phrase, or a single gesture, which will replace all verbal and somatic components for your warlock spells. You can speak this word or perform this gesture innocuously, without arousing suspicion that you’re casting a spell. If a creature becomes familiar with you, they might be able to ascertain that you use the word or gesture to activate your spells, but can't discern what spell you've cast.

In order to cast spells this way, you must be able to perform verbal components, if you chose a word or phrase, or somatic components, if you chose a gesture.

When you gain a level in this class, you can pick a new word or gesture to use in the place of verbal and somatic components. The new word or gesture replaces the previous one.


Here's a couple of my own thoughts so far:

There's a lot of bonus action competition. If you cast any spell (cantrip or Misty Step), it prevents you from casting non-cantrip spells with your action. This includes Bane.

Bane is concentration, and automatically casts at 1st level (any time you get at-will casting, it is implied to cast at its lowest level, unless the ability says otherwise). It gives you a nice fallback option once you're out of spell slots, but there's usually going to be something better to concentrate on. Still, it's nice at the lower levels when you only have 1 or 2 spell slots.

Four cantrips is a lot, even if they're primarily utility and not combat. That's why I opted not to give much else at 1st level. I did want to give early at-will Bane so that it could be your "schtick" right from the get-go. Also, I'm looking at the list of warlock cantrips, and I'm not seeing much else that a trickster character would be interested in (aside from Friends). I'm considering also giving an expanded cantrip list that includes more utility spells like Dancing Lights, Thaumaturgy, Mending, or Mold Earth.

Innocuous Disguise is great for utility and roleplay, but has no benefit for combat. It is simultaneously strong and weak, depending on what you're doing. I'm considering if I should move one of the other features to 6th level to accompany it, probably something combat related.

Mind Games seems a tad busy. It's not a lengthy feature description, it's just doing a lot of small things. Maybe I should split this up and give some aspects at 6th level and the rest at 10th?

At-will flight is pretty strong, and most other subclasses that get it also do so at 14th level, and they don't usually give anything else. I wonder if I'm giving too much at 14th level. Should With a Snap and a Flash be moved to a different level?

I debated giving Detect Thoughts or Phantasmal Force instead of Magic Aura or Pass without Trace on the expanded spell list. I'm still wondering if I can improve that list.

Edea
2020-08-18, 06:53 PM
This seems to synch with a Cha-martial dip of some sort/Pact of the Blade, due to Mind Games placing that bonus action cast and Cha-to-damage benefit on Vicious Mockery. Do invocations get around the 'one spell per turn' rule? I'm pretty sure they don't if they say "you can cast X (so many times)", but I wanted to be sure.

Greywander
2020-08-18, 07:02 PM
I don't think invocations have any special rules for casting spells, other than what's spelled out in the invocation itself. If you cast any spell as a bonus action, you can't cast any leveled spell (regardless of whether you are using a spell slot or not) during the same turn. What you could do is cast a cantrip, such as a second Vicious Mockery, or EB. So I don't think this synergizes as much with a martial build as you think (though it's still a decent combo). Actually, with VM giving disadvantage on the next save, it probably chains better into another VM or other save cantrip (Toll the Dead?).

Edea
2020-08-18, 07:35 PM
I really like it, otherwise.

I think I'd go with a verbal "I heard a rumor..." for my With a Snap and a Flash feature.

clash
2020-08-18, 08:13 PM
I like the theme but it seems over tuned to me.

Trickster’s Repertoire:
This gives 4 free cantrips and a stronger version of a weak invocation all at level 1. By comparison archfey gives 10ft cube charm or frighten for one turn, once per short rest. Celestial gives 2 cantrips and stone bonus action healing. I think I would limit it to choosing 2 cantrips of four and bane 1/ short rest rather than at will. Either that or just the cantrips or just bane at will.

Innocuous Disguise:
Transforming into an animal disguise at will is very useful and flavorful on its own. I would give the animal disguise and not the swim speed and climb speed. Archfey gives an improved misty step once per short rest as a comparison point. You could also make the transformation 1/ short rest and you gain any special movements speed the animal form has.

Mind Games:
I like the bonuses to the cantrips. Although casting viscous mockery as a bonus action is problematic. would drop that. I would probably drop the telepathy bonus as well. Although probably fine to include it. It's more of a ribbon in most cases anyways.

Just Popping In:
This gives away will flight and at will misty step. This is definitely strong enough on its own to fill the level 14 feature. It is already leaning on the strong side. It also seems kinda random and doesn't really match the theme on my mind. I might drop out altogether.

With a Snap and a Flash:
Now this is on theme. Great ability with its own controls and fantastic imagery. I would leave this as the level 14 feature and drop the other one. I might even suggest moving this to level 6 and then the fourteen feature could be the animal disguise at will plus climb and swim speed. I want to be doing this earlier as a trickster.

Greywander
2020-08-18, 10:14 PM
I really like it, otherwise.

I think I'd go with a verbal "I heard a rumor..." for my With a Snap and a Flash feature.
That seems like a fun phrase to work into a casual conversation, especially when used for something like Suggestion. The "rumor" you "heard" is actually the suggestion you're giving them, e.g. "I heard a rumor you are going to go scream in the archmage's face for an hour."


I like the theme but it seems over tuned to me.
Honestly this is probably pretty typical of any homebrew on the first couple of passes. As a creator, it's hard to let go of something, but a big part of the refinement process is trimming the fat.

“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away” – Antoine de Saint-Exupery (I swear I thought it was Michalangelo until I looked it up just now)

That's why getting brutally honest critique from other people can be so helpful at cleaning, well, any kind of content up. As the creator, you're too attached to get rid of anything, but the criticism helps you to figure out which parts are least and most important.


Trickster’s Repertoire:
This gives 4 free cantrips and a stronger version of a weak invocation all at level 1. By comparison archfey gives 10ft cube charm or frighten for one turn, once per short rest. Celestial gives 2 cantrips and stone bonus action healing. I think I would limit it to choosing 2 cantrips of four and bane 1/ short rest rather than at will. Either that or just the cantrips or just bane at will.
Part of the reasoning for giving free cantrips is that I have to make sure the player has the cantrip before I can give them a bonus with that cantrip. That said, you make a point. I suppose I could just give you two cantrips, and still give bonuses for the other cantrips. You obviously only benefit if you actually pick up those cantrips, but if you're playing this subclass then you probably wanted to anyway. Warlock doesn't exactly have a great cantrip selection.

As for Bane, it's worth noting that the invocation casts it using a spell slot, e.g. you would be casting it at 5th level, rather than 1st. Personally, I think there's room for, and would be more interested in, an invocation that allowed you to cast Bane at-will at 1st level, but such an invocation does not exist. As such, if I wanted this to be an option for this subclass, I might as well build it into the subclass itself.

Maybe there's a happy middle ground: free Vicious Mockery (which you can't normally get), and at-will Bane. Since VM is a save, and Bane gives a penalty to saves, this actually combos pretty nicely, despite being weaker than EB.


Innocuous Disguise:
Transforming into an animal disguise at will is very useful and flavorful on its own. I would give the animal disguise and not the swim speed and climb speed. Archfey gives an improved misty step once per short rest as a comparison point. You could also make the transformation 1/ short rest and you gain any special movements speed the animal form has.
The reason for the swim and climb speeds are that usually a transformation ability like this retains your own statistics except for movement speed. Like, you can turn into a spider and climb on things, or an octopus and swim around. So, my logic was to just bypass that entirely by giving you a swim and climb speed, regardless of your form. The transformation, then, is entirely cosmetic. This, by the way, is also part of the reason for getting a fly speed later on. Before then, you can still turn into birds and such, you just can't fly.

All that said, even if it's just a cosmetic transformation, with no special movement speeds, that's still a pretty neat ability, especially if it's at-will. You might be able to obtain swim, climb, or fly speeds elsewhere, and you can still swim and climb without a swim or climb speed.


Mind Games:
I like the bonuses to the cantrips. Although casting viscous mockery as a bonus action is problematic. would drop that. I would probably drop the telepathy bonus as well. Although probably fine to include it. It's more of a ribbon in most cases anyways.
A big part of the BA VM is so that you'll actually use it, even if you spec into EB: use your action to EB, bonus action to VM. It also adds slightly more combat viability to a subclass that isn't really combat specced. Now, maybe the disadvantage on saves is all VM needs to make it an attractive alternative to EB, in which case being able to BA cast any of the other three cantrips could make fights more interesting, assuming you didn't have anything else to use your BA on. I'll give this one some more thought.

As for telepathy, it's on my list of things a trickster should have, and it's one of the reasons that in the past I typically favored a GOOlock over a feylock for this concept. The problem is that GOO doesn't really give anything else, except maybe the thrall. When you get telepathy is pretty arbitrary; GOOlock gets it at 1st level, but that's also all they get, so it wouldn't feel right to shovel it in there next to another feature.


Just Popping In:
This gives away will flight and at will misty step. This is definitely strong enough on its own to fill the level 14 feature. It is already leaning on the strong side. It also seems kinda random and doesn't really match the theme on my mind. I might drop out altogether.
As previously mentioned, flight is there so you can turn into birds and such and actually fly around. A common trickster trope is to have them hover around, even literally hovering over another character's shoulder. Maybe this could be modified to limited fly speed that requires them to stay within a certain distance of the ground (say, 20 feet).

Teleportation is also common for trickster characters. Sometimes, it seems like they teleport more than they actually walk around. But it's usually really short distances, or literally appearing from nowhere. So, something like an at-will Misty Step and 1/long rest Dimension Door, or something. Again, though, maybe we can tone this down to, say, a 10 foot teleport. It let's you keep the feel, but isn't quite as strong. Actually, this might be a great place to implement another idea I came up with a while ago: Teleport Speed (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?609905-Return-of-the-Teleport-Speed). But it's probably better to stick to something simpler.


With a Snap and a Flash:
Now this is on theme. Great ability with its own controls and fantastic imagery. I would leave this as the level 14 feature and drop the other one. I might even suggest moving this to level 6 and then the fourteen feature could be the animal disguise at will plus climb and swim speed. I want to be doing this earlier as a trickster.
Good point about possibly moving this up. The Subtle Spell metamagic was another feature I felt like a trickster should have, but then I thought I could put a small twist on it. The name, and idea, for this ability is actually inspired by Q from Star Trek, who snaps his fingers (creating a flash of light) every time he does something. (And actually, huge swathes of this subclass are inspired by Q and Discord, who is basically fantasy Q.) Again, it gets what I'd want out of Subtle Spell, while being actually weaker and still pretty balanced. The limitation also adds more flavor; instead of just dropping V and S components entirely, you basically make up your own and use it as a "tell" for when you cast a spell.

Thanks for the feedback, it's helping me to focus in on what needs to change and how things might be able to be toned down to retain the fluff and utility I want from this subclass while bringing down the power level to something more balanced. I do some tweaking and post a new version in a bit.

Greywander
2020-08-18, 10:36 PM
Alright, new version:


The Trickster
This may be a fey, aberration, fiend, or any number of other powerful entities. Regardless, the Trickster is a being who loves pranks and japes, and might range from good-natured to mean-spirited. Instead of raw power, they rely on cunning and mischief to achieve their ends, usually by manipulating others into unwittingly doing their bidding.

Expanded Spell List
The Trickster lets you choose from an expanded list of spells when you learn a warlock spell. The following spells are added to the warlock spell list for you.

Spell Level - Spells
1st - command, Tasha’s hideous laughter
2nd - Nystul’s magic aura, pass without trace
3rd - bestow curse, sending
4th - phantasmal killer, polymorph
5th - modify memory, seeming

Malicious Tongue
Starting at 1st level, you learn the vicious mockery cantrip, which counts as a warlock spell for you. This doesn’t count against the number of cantrips you know.

You may also cast the bane spell at-will, without expending a spell slot.

With a Snap and a Flash
Beginning at 6th level, your warlock spells don’t require verbal or somatic components. Instead, you may pick a single word or phrase, or a single gesture, which will replace all verbal and somatic components for your warlock spells. You can speak this word or perform this gesture innocuously, without arousing suspicion that you’re casting a spell. If a creature becomes familiar with you, they might be able to ascertain that you use the word or gesture to activate your spells, but can’t discern what spell you’ve cast.

In order to cast spells this way, you must be able to perform verbal components, if you chose a word or phrase, or somatic components, if you chose a gesture.

When you gain a level in this class, you can pick a new word or gesture to use in the place of verbal and somatic components. The new word or gesture replaces the previous one.

Just Popping In
Starting at 6th level, you can magically teleport up 10 feet away to an unoccupied location you can see as a bonus action. You must use the word or gesture from With a Snap and a Flash to activate this ability.

Mind Games
Starting at 10th level, you can cast the mage hand, minor illusion, and prestidigitation spells as a bonus action instead of an action, if you know them. You also gain the following benefits for each of these cantrips, and for vicious mockery:

Mage Hand. The hand is invisible, and you can use a bonus action to control the hand. You can also use the hand to make Dexterity(Sleight of Hand) checks.
Minor Illusion. You can create both an image and a sound with the same casting of the spell.
Prestidigitation. You can create two effects simultaneously with one casting of the spell.
Vicious Mockery. You may add your Charisma modifier to the damage roll, and a creature who fails their saving throw against this spell has disadvantage on the next saving throw they make before the end of your next turn.

You can also speak telepathically to any creature within 120 feet. You don’t need to share a language for a creature to understand your telepathic utterances, but the creature must be able to understand at least one language.

Innocuous Disguise
Beginning at 14th level, you can use your action to polymorph into a Large or smaller beast, a beast-hybrid form, or back into your true form. Your statistics are the same in each form, except for your size. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying isn’t transformed with you. You revert to your true form if you die.

In addition, you also gain a swim and climb speed equal to your walking speed. You also gain the ability to hover a short distance above the ground, granting you a flying speed equal to your walking speed while you are no more than 20 feet above solid ground.

Old Harry MTX
2020-08-19, 12:58 AM
Hi Greywander, can you make a quick log about what is changed? Or highlight the new parts in some way? ^^

Greywander
2020-08-19, 03:32 PM
Hi Greywander, can you make a quick log about what is changed? Or highlight the new parts in some way? ^^
Malicious Tongue has replaced Trickster's Repertoire. Basically, only gives free Vicious Mockery and at-will Bane.
With a Snap and a Flash has been moved to 6th level.
Just Popping In has also been moved to 6th level. No longer gives flight or at-will Misty Step, instead gives a 10 foot BA teleport.
Mind Games specifies which cantrips can be cast as a BA, since Trickster's Repertoire no longer exists. Vicious Mockery can no longer be cast as a BA.
Innocuous Disguise moved to 14th level. Now also gives a fly speed, but only while within 20 feet of solid ground.

I think that's all that changed. So mostly a combination of moving things around and trimming them down. Most everything that was there previously is still there, just not as strong.

Also, since we're no longer giving a bunch of free cantrips, I might extend Mind Games to work with other cantrips, like Friends. I might also add Message to the warlock list and make it a Mind Games cantrip, but not give it for free. This could be an alternative to getting telepathy.

For Friends, I'm thinking maybe something like this for the Mind Games bonus:

Friends. When the spell ends, the target's memory of the incident progressively deteriorates over a period of an hour. By the end of the hour, the memory is like a fleeting dream, and the target is unable to recall what kind of magic was used, who used the magic, or what was discussed while the magic was affecting them.

For Message, maybe something like this:

Message. The duration of this spell is extended to up to 10 minutes if you concentrate on the spell, allowing you to pass one message to the target on each of your turns without needing to recast this spell. You only need to point and whisper when you initially cast the spell, and once the spell is cast it remains in effect regardless of distance or barriers between you and the target.

Dancing Lights is another one that isn't on the warlock list, but might be appropriate to add without giving it for free:

Dancing Lights. You can create up to six lights, instead of four, and the lights can take the form of glowing figures of creatures, such as fairies or tiny animals. You can also have the lights emit faint sounds, such as bells ringing, giggling, or birds chirping, which can be heard up to 30 feet away. The sound can't create intelligible speech. When you use your bonus action to move the lights, you can change their form and any sound they are emitting, including silencing the lights.

clash
2020-08-20, 10:20 AM
I feel like the improved version is something I might actually allow in games that I dm. I still like the idea for Innocous disguise to simply give the movement speeds of the animal you change into. Other than that I like the new versiona. lot better. Looking good!

Greywander
2020-10-06, 11:40 PM
Necroing this because I had it on my mind. Made a couple more tweaks:

Dancing Lights and Message are now on the expanded spell list. It's a bit unconventional, but the genie patron (UA, at least) added Wish, so there's a precedent for doing something other than 1st through 5th.

Mind Games now adds benefits for Dancing Lights and Message, and allows bonus action casting for them. These are mostly what I was considering in my last post, except that Message now lasts for 1 hour, and Dancing Lights still only does four lights (insert Star Trek reference here). Telepathy has been removed, since it can be achieved with Message instead (or close enough).

I reworked Innocuous Disguise. Here's the new version:

Innocuous Disguise
Beginning at 14th level, you learn the Alter Self spell, which doesn’t count against the number of warlock spells you know. You also gain the following benefits when casting this spell:

You don’t require concentration for this spell. You can still end the spell at any time, as if you were concentrating on it.
When you use the Change Appearance option, you can adopt shapes of drastically different forms, such as adding limbs or becoming quadrupedal. If you concentrate on this spell, or cast it using a spell slot of 5th level or higher, you can also change your size to be anywhere from tiny to large.
You have two additional options to choose from when casting this spell: an aerial form that gives you a fly speed equal to your walk speed, and a subterranean form that gives you a burrow speed equal to half your walk speed and tremorsense out to 30 feet. Using either of these forms requires you to concentrate on this spell or cast it using a spell slot of 5th level or higher.
When you cast this spell, you can use two options at once, one of which must be the Change Appearance option.

And yes, this does synergize with Myriad of Many Forms, which you can pick up one level later. By requiring concentration or expending a 5th level slot, I can make some of these stronger features available "at-will" (with MoMF) out of combat, while still allowing them to be used in combat (or other situation where you need concentration) with a cost. I might remove the burrow speed form, but I'm not sure.

I'm wondering if using Alter Self is actually better, or if I should make it a "spell-less" ability like it was before. Not sure how I feel about the "invocation tax" for MoMF in order to cast Alter Self at will, either, but it at least helps to balance the power of it.


I still like the idea for Innocous disguise to simply give the movement speeds of the animal you change into.
The problem with this is that you end up always changing into the animal with the best speeds. It makes more sense to me to set fixed speeds and allow you to take whatever appearance you want to.