The Hammer

[rbetieh]

If Durkon gets his hammer back right here and now (ep 1211), will it shrink back to normal size? What if he hands Minrah a short sword, would it become a greatsword?

[dancrilis]

Depends on how the spell works but based on the likely standard spell Righteous Might - the hammer would default to normal size if she lets it go and a short sword would become a larger short sword.

[Worldsong]

WE ARE THE HAMMER!

Sorry.

In any case I imagine that being given the hammer would cause the size to adjust.

[EmperorSarda]

https://i.imgflip.com/4bzr88.jpg

[rbetieh]

Depends on how the spell works but based on the likely standard spell Righteous Might - the hammer would default to normal size if she lets it go and a short sword would become a larger short sword.


So, what happens if she throws the hammer, would it suddenly start accelerating even more due to constant Force and mass loss?

[dancrilis]

So, what happens if she throws the hammer, would it suddenly start accelerating even more due to constant Force and mass loss?

It would still hit the same round it was thrown I believe - but would hit like the normal version of the weapon rather then the larger one (from the spell).

[rbetieh]

I wonder how far back The Giant planned to answer this question with "I'm not going to answer"....:smallsigh:

[The Pilgrim]

It would still hit the same round it was thrown I believe - but would hit like the normal version of the weapon rather then the larger one (from the spell).

Yep. throwing weapons revert to their normal size and make regular damage according to their normal size.

Projectiles fired from a projectile weapon, though, do damage according to the firing weapon increased size.

It's magic, it doesn't needs to be consistent.

[rbetieh]

Yep. throwing weapons revert to their normal size and make regular damage according to their normal size.

Projectiles fired from a projectile weapon, though, do damage according to the firing weapon increased size.

It's magic, it doesn't needs to be consistent.

Does that mean you dont get the +3 with Projectile and you do with thrown?

[Gurgeh]

+3 what? Size category changes work by changing the damage dice, not by giving static bonuses.

Thrown weapons would still benefit from the increased strength that the spell grants, since the wielder's stats aren't reduced retroactively. The same would apply to ranged weapons, providing they allow a strength bonus in the first place.

[Anymage]

So, what happens if she throws the hammer, would it suddenly start accelerating even more due to constant Force and mass loss?

Trying to apply real world physics to game mechanics is a fool's errand. Look up the commoner rail gun for the classic example.

[Fyraltari]

Trying to apply real world physics to game mechanics is a fool's errand. Look up the commoner rail gun for the classic example.

Is that a commoner with a rail gun, a rail gun shooting commoners, a rail gun made out of commoners or a commoner with a rail gun made out of commoners shooting commoners?

[Peelee]

Is that a commoner with a rail gun, a rail gun shooting commoners, a rail gun made out of commoners or a commoner with a rail gun made out of commoners shooting commoners?

...or are you just happy to see me?

ETA: to actually answer your question, IIRC it's a bunch of commoners lined up. The first one passes an object to the second one. The second one passes that object to the third one. The third one passes that object to the fourth one, etc. etc., all of which happens in one round (6 seconds). By the millionth commoner, the object is going at a small fraction of the speed of light.

[Fyraltari]

...or are you just happy to see me?
No, no, no, no, that's commoner, with an o and only one word.


ETA: to actually answer your question, IIRC it's a bunch of commoners lined up. The first one passes an object to the second one. The second one passes that object to the third one. The third one passes that object to the fourth one, etc. etc., all of which happens in one round (6 seconds). By the millionth commoner, the object is going at a small fraction of the speed of light.

Wait, how does this work?

Also I was actually kind of expecting a pile of commoners each standing on the next one's palms, Cirque du Soleil-style and all launching the guy above in the air at the same time or something. Kind of disapointed.

[The Pilgrim]

With the peasant railgun you can accelerate a shortspear to near the speed of light.

It still inflicts 1d6 damage + the Strength Bonus of the first peasant in the line.

[Peelee]

With the peasant railgun you can accelerate a shortspear to near the speed of light.

It still inflicts 1d6 damage + the Strength Bonus of the first peasant in the line.

Imean, in theory you could accelerate another peasant to near the speed of light, if the other peasants have enough strength to pass the one off like a shortspear. Which might make Fyr a bit happier.

[Fyraltari]

No but seriously, how does that loophole work? Is there a rule saying that commoners can pass objects to and fro in no time? And if that's the case why a gradual accelaration rather than the objects instantly going at lightspeed?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wait, how does this work?

Each round of combat takes exactly 6 seconds, by definition. Everyone is allowed to have 1 turn per round. If a million peasants are in the same combat, they can use their action to pass an object along a line. (Ignore that the first peasant in the line is 5 million feet from the last one, and thus likely in a different county entirely, so it cannot possibly be in the same combat). An object passed along the chain moved 5 million feet (1.5 km, in real units) in 6 seconds (~250,000 m/s, if I've done the math right... which would be a lot easier to tell if dead king's locomotion appendages hadn't been involved).

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Each round of combat takes exactly 6 seconds, by definition. Everyone is allowed to have 1 turn per round. If a million peasants are in the same combat, they can use their action to pass an object along a line. (Ignore that the first peasant in the line is 5 million feet from the last one, and thus likely in a different county entirely, so it cannot possibly be in the same combat). An object passed along the chain moved 5 million feet in 6 seconds.

Grey Wolf

Okay I get it, nothing specify that it takes a round for the thing to go from peasant A to peasant B, so players can argue peasant A and B both pass the thing to their respective neighbour in the same round and so on and so forth.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Okay I get it, nothing specify that it takes a round for the thing to go from peasant A to peasant B, so players can argue peasant A and B both pass the thing to their respective neighbour in the same round and so on and so forth.

Correct.

GW

[The Pilgrim]

Imean, in theory you could accelerate another peasant to near the speed of light, if the other peasants have enough strength to pass the one off like a shortspear. Which might make Fyr a bit happier.

That would inflict about 2d6 of bludgeoning damage, plus str bonus. Rolling -4 to hit because it's an improvised weapon, unless the last peasant is proficent in throwing people.

Also the thrown peasant has to weigth 100lb maximum for an average 10 str peasant to toss him down the line (100lb is the maximum carry capacity for a str 10 character). So it has to be a really tiny peasant.

EDIT: Also, a peasant would count as a gargantuan-sized weapon, meaning a medium-sized creature can't use it at all. You'll need a larger sized creature at the start of the line to make the throw.

[Wizard_Lizard]

...or are you just happy to see me?

ETA: to actually answer your question, IIRC it's a bunch of commoners lined up. The first one passes an object to the second one. The second one passes that object to the third one. The third one passes that object to the fourth one, etc. etc., all of which happens in one round (6 seconds). By the millionth commoner, the object is going at a small fraction of the speed of light.

Slight problem here. They all have to be in the correct order because initiative.

[Peelee]

Slight problem here. They all have to be in the correct order because initiative.

Simple solution - they function like DM controlled monsters, who can take their turns at the same time in whatever order DM decides.

Or, even simpler, any who have their turn occur before they get handed the object readies their action to pass of the object once it gets handed to them.

[Fyraltari]

That would inflict about 2d6 of bludgeoning damage, plus str bonus. Rolling -4 to hit because it's an improvised weapon, unless the last peasant is proficent in throwing people.

Also the thrown peasant has to weigth 100lb maximum for an average 10 str peasant to toss him down the line (100lb is the maximum carry capacity for a str 10 character). So it has to be a really tiny peasant.

EDIT: Also, a peasant would count as a gargantuan-sized weapon, meaning a medium-sized creature can't use it at all. You'll need a larger sized creature at the start of the line to make the throw.

Okay but here me out, here.


Commoner babies.

[Peelee]

Okay put here me out, here.


Commoner babies.

They would definitely not do 2d6 bludgeoning damage, is the problem.

[Fyraltari]

They would definitely not do 2d6 bludgeoning damage, is the problem.

Commoner babies wearing helmets?

[Peelee]

Commoner babies wearing helmets?

Now you're thinking like a D&D player!

[SirKazum]

Isn't the use of readied actions an integral part of the Commoner Railgun? If all commoners ready their actions, they're guaranteed to all act instantly the precise moment the stick reaches them.

In either way, things like this illustrate what's the problem with smart-ass loopholes that utilize a mixture of rules taken literally to the exclusion of common sense and real-world science: either the situation works according to RAW rules (in which case, as someone noted, the railgun's damage is exactly the same that it would have if the last commoner in the line was the only one there and just threw the object normally), or things work according to science and/or common sense (as much of it as applicable in a fantasy setting), in which case the stick would only travel each round as much as it should in the real world and attain a velocity that people could pass it with in the real world. (FWIW, I'd say the reasonable way to play it is a mix of the two approaches; RAW by default to make it generally consistent, changing RAW by rule-0 when it stops making sense.)

[The Pilgrim]

Commoner babies.

The Church of Loki approves (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1107.html).

[EmperorSarda]

If Durkon gets his hammer back right here and now (ep 1211), will it shrink back to normal size?

Based off comic 591 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), yes it would shrink.

[rbetieh]

Each round of combat takes exactly 6 seconds, by definition. Everyone is allowed to have 1 turn per round. If a million peasants are in the same combat, they can use their action to pass an object along a line. (Ignore that the first peasant in the line is 5 million feet from the last one, and thus likely in a different county entirely, so it cannot possibly be in the same combat). An object passed along the chain moved 5 million feet (1.5 km, in real units) in 6 seconds (~250,000 m/s, if I've done the math right... which would be a lot easier to tell if dead king's locomotion appendages hadn't been involved).

Grey Wolf


Wait, is that how teleportation actually works? If I make a halfling, traveling by railgun should be a cinch....

[Peelee]

Wait, is that how teleportation actually works? If I make a halfling, traveling by railgun should be a cinch....

Yes, that's why all Teleport spells had their school changed to Conjuration from 3.5 onward - it technically summons a number of ethereal commoners equal to the distance being "teleported" to, who pick up the caster and any objects or other creatures. Higher level casters conjure stronger ethereal commoners, which is how they are able to pick up more creatures, and why size constraints are imposed on creatures being "teleported". Because the ethereal commoners are summoned in a straight line between the departure and arrival destinations, the less the caster knows the location, the higher likelihood the line's angle will be slightly skewed, which accounts for the location mishap possibilities.

[Jay R]

No but seriously, how does that loophole work?

It doesn't work.

If anybody tried to do it in my game, I would ask the player to state in advance whether he wanted the rules applied with common sense as usual, or just RAW in defiance of common sense. But either way, the stunt doesn't work.

If the DM is applying rules as written in defiance of common sense, then yes, a series of readied actions ("I ready an action to pass the spear forward as soon as it is placed in my hands") would all work, and the spear travels several miles in 6 seconds, at which point it only does 1d6 plus STR bonus of the person at the head of the line, since there is no rule giving it more damage based on its speed before it is thrown.

If the rules are applied with common sense, then either the DM decides how long each transfer takes, and only a certain number can happen in round, and the spear never builds up speed, arriving an hour or more late. Or possibly he decides what DEX roll is necessary for each peasant to catch a spear moving at that speed.

But either way, the peasant rail gun cannot work.

[skim172]

If we're examining this with a scientific eye, then the real question is how does Thor's Might work - and what consequences might that have for the physical universe? Is it creating more space between the constituent atoms of the person? Is it enlarging the actual size of the atoms in their body? Or does it simply pull matter from some hidden dimension as extra material to pack into the body of the caster?

And why do weapons and clothes grow along with the person? How does the spell determine what to include? It can't be based simply on objects in contact with the person's body, because if so, surely the ground beneath their feet counts as well. And what if someone was holding hands with the caster - how does the spell differentiate?

Does this mean everything on the caster's body grows in size as well? Like, the bacteria that might be crawling around on their skin? Does this mean we get giant bacteria? And if not, then what about the gut flora within the caster's body - do they not grow along with the caster when the spell is cast?

What if the caster is using Thor's Might and gets impaled by a regular-sized sword while they're giant, and then they shrink back to normal - does the sword that's stuck in their body shrink as well? And if so, what if I'm holding the sword as the caster is shrinking - do I get shrunk down too?

So many questions.

[Metastachydium]

Does this mean everything on the caster's body grows in size as well? Like, the bacteria that might be crawling around on their skin? Does this mean we get giant bacteria? And if not, then what about the gut flora within the caster's body - do they not grow along with the caster when the spell is cast?


Well, Hel's Might definitely does that one.

[Potatopeelerkin]

Yes, that's why all Teleport spells had their school changed to Conjuration from 3.5 onward - it technically summons a number of ethereal commoners equal to the distance being "teleported" to, who pick up the caster and any objects or other creatures. Higher level casters conjure stronger ethereal commoners, which is how they are able to pick up more creatures, and why size constraints are imposed on creatures being "teleported". Because the ethereal commoners are summoned in a straight line between the departure and arrival destinations, the less the caster knows the location, the higher likelihood the line's angle will be slightly skewed, which accounts for the location mishap possibilities.

This is quite possibly my favourite comment on this forum.

[Jay R]

If we're examining this with a scientific eye, ...

"If."


If we're examining this with a scientific eye, then the real question is how does Thor's Might work - and what consequences might that have for the physical universe? Is it creating more space between the constituent atoms of the person? Is it enlarging the actual size of the atoms in their body? Or does it simply pull matter from some hidden dimension as extra material to pack into the body of the caster?

And why do weapons and clothes grow along with the person? How does the spell determine what to include? It can't be based simply on objects in contact with the person's body, because if so, surely the ground beneath their feet counts as well. And what if someone was holding hands with the caster - how does the spell differentiate?

Does this mean everything on the caster's body grows in size as well? Like, the bacteria that might be crawling around on their skin? Does this mean we get giant bacteria? And if not, then what about the gut flora within the caster's body - do they not grow along with the caster when the spell is cast?

What if the caster is using Thor's Might and gets impaled by a regular-sized sword while they're giant, and then they shrink back to normal - does the sword that's stuck in their body shrink as well? And if so, what if I'm holding the sword as the caster is shrinking - do I get shrunk down too?

So many questions.

Other DMs can rule differently in their games, and that’s fine. But here’s my approach:

I don’t encourage players to examine the world with a modern scientific eye. It reduces the feel of wonder, awe, and mystery, in return for nothing of any game value. The PCs do not have access to Knowledge(modern science).

If my players asked these questions, I would tell them that any time they choose to experiment, they can find out the gross effects of a spell. Cast it sometime with a hammer, then put the hammer down. Try picking something up. They can find out details that way. They will learn that, as with many spells, what stays within the spell area (in this case, an individual’s personal space) stays the same size, but what leaves (a thrown hammer, an arrow) shrinks as soon as it ends its immediate effect (an arrow does large-size damage, then shrinks). But nothing grows except at the time of casting.

Similarly, if they try to include somebody holding hands, or the ground beneath their feet, they will learn that those are outside the limits of the spell, just as many spells have effect limits. You can’t get past the limits of a Charm Person spell by targeting somebody holding hands with someone else, either.

Weapons and clothes grow with growth spells for the same reasons that they turn invisible, teleport, go ethereal, or share other spell effects.

But the PCs have never heard of atoms, bacteria, gut flora, or conservation of mass or energy, and would not believe in them if somebody told them about them. [Correctly, by the way. Physical laws are different, and mass and energy are not conserved. Any Enlarge Person or Fireball spell proves that.]

In short, they can learn about the gross effects of spells by trying the spells and seeing what happens. But they cannot learn any modern scientific laws, in part because they aren’t the laws of that world.

I repeat: other DMs can rule differently in their games, and that’s fine.

[Peelee]

This is quite possibly my favourite comment on this forum.

This immensely pleases me. Hell, I instantly went and lobbied my D&D group to make that canon.

[Fyraltari]

This immensely pleases me. Hell, I instantly went and lobbied my D&D group to make that canon.

Will you then lobby them to make that cannon?

[Peelee]

Will you then lobby them to make that cannon?

Making it canon would make that cannon.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yes, that's why all Teleport spells had their school changed to Conjuration from 3.5 onward - it technically summons a number of ethereal commoners equal to the distance being "teleported" to, who pick up the caster and any objects or other creatures. Higher level casters conjure stronger ethereal commoners, which is how they are able to pick up more creatures, and why size constraints are imposed on creatures being "teleported". Because the ethereal commoners are summoned in a straight line between the departure and arrival destinations, the less the caster knows the location, the higher likelihood the line's angle will be slightly skewed, which accounts for the location mishap possibilities. Brilliant. I can't add that to my sig, as it's too large, but that's some good stuff right there. :smallsmile:

[Schroeswald]

Brilliant. I can't add that to my sig, as it's too large, but that's some good stuff right there. :smallsmile:

There’s an extended signature thread I have some stuff in you can put it in.

[Peelee]

Any method to curate my brilliance and wit is a method I approve of.

Also, super bonus points to anyone who uses Peeleean Teleportation in their game.

[KorvinStarmast]

There’s an extended signature thread I have some stuff in you can put it in. I figured out how to sneak it in. :smallbiggrin:

[Fyraltari]

There’s an extended signature thread I have some stuff in you can put it in.

What kind of low-life would resort to such measure? Fi, I say, fi!

[rbetieh]

This immensely pleases me. Hell, I instantly went and lobbied my D&D group to make that canon.

Once the Commoner Railway Express is Cannon, you should lobby to have them always Sing the Beatles "Ticket to Ride" while transporting folks. It may only last 6 seconds but thats enough to earworm in there...

[RatElemental]

Regarding the commoner railgun, there's a slightly more obscure way to break physics that actually will work if you apply the rules rigidly: The supersonic grappleball.

A creature can be grappled by up to 4 other creatures, who can in turn be grappled by up to 4 creatures (including the original). With some basic branching you can fit an infinite number of creatures in a single space all grappling each other. But it gets silly when you bring the moving during a grapple rule into play. Each round you can attempt to drag everyone you're currently grappling with half your normal movement speed if you beat all their grapple checks. Grapple checks that they could individually all choose to fail.

Add that all up, and you get an arbitrary amount of commoners dragging each other at arbitrarily high speeds through nothing other than the power of a group hug.

[Peelee]

But it gets silly when you bring the moving during a grapple rule into play.

Oh, that's when it gets silly.:smallamused:

[Doug Lampert]

Oh, that's when it gets silly.:smallamused:

Yep, before that it was all fun and games, but then someone got their eye put out by the impact of a ball of an arbitrary number of commoners moving at arbitrarily high speed.

[mjasghar]

Since they all act at the same initiative it’s actually a form of quantum entanglement

[KorvinStarmast]

Since they all act at the same initiative it’s actually a form of quantum entanglement *golf clap*
Although since they be commoners, maybe it's a form of common entanglement ... :smallcool:

[Fyraltari]

*golf clap*
Although since they be commoners, maybe it's a form of common entanglement ... :smallcool:

Well, given that Teleportation isn’t that hard to come by, it is indeed a common action at a distance.

[KillianHawkeye]

Regarding the commoner railgun, there's a slightly more obscure way to break physics that actually will work if you apply the rules rigidly: The supersonic grappleball.

A creature can be grappled by up to 4 other creatures, who can in turn be grappled by up to 4 creatures (including the original). With some basic branching you can fit an infinite number of creatures in a single space all grappling each other. But it gets silly when you bring the moving during a grapple rule into play. Each round you can attempt to drag everyone you're currently grappling with half your normal movement speed if you beat all their grapple checks. Grapple checks that they could individually all choose to fail.

Add that all up, and you get an arbitrary amount of commoners dragging each other at arbitrarily high speeds through nothing other than the power of a group hug.

Did you want Katamari Damacy? Because that's how you get Katamari Damacy. :smallamused:

[PattThe]

Yes, that's why all Teleport spells had their school changed to Conjuration from 3.5 onward - it technically summons a number of ethereal commoners equal to the distance being "teleported" to, who pick up the caster and any objects or other creatures. Higher level casters conjure stronger ethereal commoners, which is how they are able to pick up more creatures, and why size constraints are imposed on creatures being "teleported". Because the ethereal commoners are summoned in a straight line between the departure and arrival destinations, the less the caster knows the location, the higher likelihood the line's angle will be slightly skewed, which accounts for the location mishap possibilities.
Honestly as a 5e/2e player this does so much to explain the level differential if we say that 3.5 teleport is an effort of how much conjurative power you can borrow (4th level iirc) and in 5e the teleport spell is more of a measure of your own brute strength to accomplish a slightly different formula (7th).


Did you want Katamari Damacy? Because that's how you get Katamari Damacy. :smallamused:
Interested in seeing a stat up of a 50 ft wide concentric shell of debris surrounding a radioactive core of commoners...

[Wizard_Lizard]

Yes, that's why all Teleport spells had their school changed to Conjuration from 3.5 onward - it technically summons a number of ethereal commoners equal to the distance being "teleported" to, who pick up the caster and any objects or other creatures. Higher level casters conjure stronger ethereal commoners, which is how they are able to pick up more creatures, and why size constraints are imposed on creatures being "teleported". Because the ethereal commoners are summoned in a straight line between the departure and arrival destinations, the less the caster knows the location, the higher likelihood the line's angle will be slightly skewed, which accounts for the location mishap possibilities.

Was this canon in my homegame?
No?
Well it is now!
Also may I sig this?

[Riftwolf]

Regarding the commoner railgun, there's a slightly more obscure way to break physics that actually will work if you apply the rules rigidly: The supersonic grappleball.

A creature can be grappled by up to 4 other creatures, who can in turn be grappled by up to 4 creatures (including the original). With some basic branching you can fit an infinite number of creatures in a single space all grappling each other. But it gets silly when you bring the moving during a grapple rule into play. Each round you can attempt to drag everyone you're currently grappling with half your normal movement speed if you beat all their grapple checks. Grapple checks that they could individually all choose to fail.

Add that all up, and you get an arbitrary amount of commoners dragging each other at arbitrarily high speeds through nothing other than the power of a group hug.

I think caterpillar swarms abuse this mechanic in real life...

[Peelee]

Was this canon in my homegame?
No?
Well it is now!
This pleases me.

Also may I sig this?
Always!

[Dr.Zero]

Bah, for what I care, it doesn't work for RAW, either.

The first halfing passes the spear to the second one, consuming his action.
The second one takes the spear that has been passed to him (else it will fall, since no one grasped it) consuming even his action. End of the thing.

It works only as long one permits the "taking ad passing to the next one" as a single action. Which I don't think is a thing that is written on the rules (but surely I can be wrong)

(And of course, it anyway won't do any damage greater than a normal attack at the end, but this was pointed out already)

[dancrilis]

It works only as long one permits the "taking ad passing to the next one" as a single action. Which I don't think is a thing that is written on the rules (but surely I can be wrong)

Dropping an item into an adjacent square is a free action, and picking up an item is a move item - so you could pickup an item drop it beside someone else, who then picks it up and does the same.

So perhaps less handing it over and more dropping it for retrieval.

You could also pickup the spear as a move action and throw it as a standard action thereby increasing your range (and reducing the amount of people needed) - you could then attach things to the spear to deliver other items (or people) with it.

[Dr.Zero]

Dropping an item into an adjacent square is a free action, and picking up an item is a move item - so you could pickup an item drop it beside someone else, who then picks it up and does the same.

So perhaps less handing it over and more dropping it for retrieval.


Ah. Good catch.

Well, at this point I will search about other inventive uses of this specific rule to get a laugh out of someone who thought to make it a free action.

[Goblin_Priest]

Isn't the use of readied actions an integral part of the Commoner Railgun? If all commoners ready their actions, they're guaranteed to all act instantly the precise moment the stick reaches them.

In either way, things like this illustrate what's the problem with smart-ass loopholes that utilize a mixture of rules taken literally to the exclusion of common sense and real-world science: either the situation works according to RAW rules (in which case, as someone noted, the railgun's damage is exactly the same that it would have if the last commoner in the line was the only one there and just threw the object normally), or things work according to science and/or common sense (as much of it as applicable in a fantasy setting), in which case the stick would only travel each round as much as it should in the real world and attain a velocity that people could pass it with in the real world. (FWIW, I'd say the reasonable way to play it is a mix of the two approaches; RAW by default to make it generally consistent, changing RAW by rule-0 when it stops making sense.)

It's not necessary, but the odds of the millions of commoners rolling initiative in the exact right order are pretty slim otherwise.

Ready action or delay action are both means of circumventing the issue of initiative order.

As for how the object goes so far, that's because passing the weapon is a free action, and free actions are limitless and take no time. Until the GM says "no, that's stupid, enough free actions for this turn".

Another variant of this is the commoner minigun, where you line up your million commoners and give them a bow and 1 arrow each, and they all pass the bow around to shoot a million arrows in a round, scoring at least 50 000 hits on average, more if the AC is relatively low. Bonus if the bow is magical.

[The Pilgrim]

Another variant of this is the commoner minigun, where you line up your million commoners and give them a bow and 1 arrow each, and they all pass the bow around to shoot a million arrows in a round, scoring at least 50 000 hits on average, more if the AC is relatively low. Bonus if the bow is magical.

Wouldn't be the same if each commoner had his own bow? With the benefit of not having to bend the rules.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wouldn't be the same if each commoner had his own bow? With the benefit of not having to bend the rules.

You'd have to bend the rules a lot, even with a bow per person (I suspect the idea is to save money, in any case, by not having to buy a million bows). A million peasants, each occupying one five-by-five foot square, uses up a lot of space - 25 million square feet. In proper units, that's about 230 hectares. At some point (200 rows deep, if my math is right), maximum range of the bow is going to come into play for the ranks furthest from the target. That means the peasants need to be a square around the target, 400 peasants to the side - 160,000 total. The rest can't reach.

GW

[RatElemental]

You'd have to bend the rules a lot, even with a bow per person (I suspect the idea is to save money, in any case, by not having to buy a million bows). A million peasants, each occupying one five-by-five foot square, uses up a lot of space - 25 million square feet. In proper units, that's about 230 hectares. At some point (200 rows deep, if my math is right), maximum range of the bow is going to come into play for the ranks furthest from the target. That means the peasants need to be a square around the target, 400 peasants to the side - 160,000 total. The rest can't reach.

GW

Unless all the peasants are grappling each other and are thus all taking up a single 5 by 5 foot space. Might need to have designated grapplers holding people who actually have bows depending on if you can grapple while wielding a two handed weapon. The grapple rules are an arcane monstrosity but it seems like the only consequence relevant to attacking someone outside of the grapple from within it are that you don't threaten any squares and thus can't get aoos.

Plus then your makeshift siege engine made of meat can still move arbitrarily fast in addition to making arbitrary numbers of attacks per round.

[tomaO2]

Shouldn't you be able to fit a an army in a strict formation into grapple range? Two people should be able to fit in a single 5 foot space, if all they are doing is long distance volley firing on the enemy. The 5 foot aspect is more important when you are fighting a tactical battle with a smaller number if units, and don't want to be tripping all over each other. Doing it this way could have some sort of penalty if they come under attack themselves, of course. Less able to maneuver.

I've been doing some work on an RPG game that works on tower defense rules. Mainly all units fight on a road, so only the vanguard forces are engaging in melee. Archers at, the back of the line, can also fire ahead. The firing range is important for that. If most units are sticking in a formation like this, and you can get around 1000 units, it matters if they all get a 5' space, or if you can squeeze them together a bit.

My current thinking is to allow the vanguard of the army a bit extra space to fight, but group the other units. Two units 2 fitting into 5 foot spaces allows for effective archery from the backs, which works better for the system I came up with.

[PattThe]

Unless all the peasants are grappling each other and are thus all taking up a single 5 by 5 foot space. Might need to have designated grapplers holding people who actually have bows depending on if you can grapple while wielding a two handed weapon. The grapple rules are an arcane monstrosity but it seems like the only consequence relevant to attacking someone outside of the grapple from within it are that you don't threaten any squares and thus can't get aoos.

Plus then your makeshift siege engine made of meat can still move arbitrarily fast in addition to making arbitrary numbers of attacks per round.
Has anyone made the Halo Reach beta Assasination train joke yet? XD

Also, can we get anything more hilarious going on with different sized creatures? Could you deliver this singularity within the space of one chest and deliver a nuclear explosion of grappled compressed mass using Dimunutive or Tiny creatures grappling one another?
Constructs or undead so they don't need food and can grapple indefinitely?
If rules allow infinite creatures in a 5 foot space do they allow that same infinity in an enclosed object's space?

[RatElemental]

Has anyone made the Halo Reach beta Assasination train joke yet? XD

Also, can we get anything more hilarious going on with different sized creatures? Could you deliver this singularity within the space of one chest and deliver a nuclear explosion of grappled compressed mass using Dimunutive or Tiny creatures grappling one another?
Constructs or undead so they don't need food and can grapple indefinitely?
If rules allow infinite creatures in a 5 foot space do they allow that same infinity in an enclosed object's space?

Not sure what that is.

Different sized creatures have mostly the same applications, I guess.

D&D does not try to simulate real world physics if you're using only raw, compressing an infinite amount of creatures into one space won't cause a singularity.

I guess they could grapple each other but it's not really all that different from a bunch of peasants doing it, other than a PC Dread Necromancer might actually have enough minions to make it a good way to store them all.

Yes.

Additionally, if you fireballed the ball of peasants they would explode out, each corpse suddenly being shunted to the nearest open 5 foot space since they are no longer grappling one another. This can happen even through solid walls. Handy trick if you want to play some psy ops with an enemy kingdom I suppose.

[rbetieh]

Another variant of this is the commoner minigun, where you line up your million commoners and give them a bow and 1 arrow each, and they all pass the bow around to shoot a million arrows in a round, scoring at least 50 000 hits on average, more if the AC is relatively low. Bonus if the bow is magical.

Too bad they cant pass around some tumbler of infinite beer and get this party off the rails instantly

[Goblin_Priest]

Wouldn't be the same if each commoner had his own bow? With the benefit of not having to bend the rules.


You'd have to bend the rules a lot, even with a bow per person (I suspect the idea is to save money, in any case, by not having to buy a million bows). A million peasants, each occupying one five-by-five foot square, uses up a lot of space - 25 million square feet. In proper units, that's about 230 hectares. At some point (200 rows deep, if my math is right), maximum range of the bow is going to come into play for the ranks furthest from the target. That means the peasants need to be a square around the target, 400 peasants to the side - 160,000 total. The rest can't reach.

GW

I'm not sure about the rules on allies sharing a same space, but yea, the idea would be to save costs. While the gain isn't huge with a mundane bow, it is exponential with a magical bow. As for the quantity that can fit within range, there's:


Distance

This property can only be placed on a ranged weapon. A weapon of distance has double the range increment of other weapons of its kind.

Moderate divination; CL 6th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, clairaudience/clairvoyance; Price +1 bonus.

A +1 distance mighty composite longbow can shoot quite far. 110ft base range, double to 220ft, and bows can shoot up to 5 range increments, so 1100ft. Against a 5x5 opponent, that allows for 194,480 commoners to shoot him in a turn. Assuming flat terrain. More if you've got multiple levels of engagement, or larger opponents. Technically, significantly less once you account for diagonals, but I don't really feel like doing that. You can certainly augment that number to literally past a million if you find a cheesy way to stack the commoners in all three dimensions, such as having the fight occur on the astral plane.

In some cases, you can increase the range even more, with feats for example. Additionally, you can increase the gains by increasing the enhancement bonuses on the bow, either with damage perks like flat +1s, some energy damage, or adding stuff like Seeking to bypass additional defenses. You could never fund a whole army to wield +5 seeking range ghost touch composite longbows, but any nation could at least afford a single one, which would allow it to blast pretty much any enemy into oblivion.

[rbetieh]

I'm not sure about the rules on allies sharing a same space, but yea, the idea would be to save costs. While the gain isn't huge with a mundane bow, it is exponential with a magical bow. As for the quantity that can fit within range, there's:



A +1 distance mighty composite longbow can shoot quite far. 110ft base range, double to 220ft, and bows can shoot up to 5 range increments, so 1100ft. Against a 5x5 opponent, that allows for 194,480 commoners to shoot him in a turn. Assuming flat terrain. More if you've got multiple levels of engagement, or larger opponents. Technically, significantly less once you account for diagonals, but I don't really feel like doing that. You can certainly augment that number to literally past a million if you find a cheesy way to stack the commoners in all three dimensions, such as having the fight occur on the astral plane.

In some cases, you can increase the range even more, with feats for example. Additionally, you can increase the gains by increasing the enhancement bonuses on the bow, either with damage perks like flat +1s, some energy damage, or adding stuff like Seeking to bypass additional defenses. You could never fund a whole army to wield +5 seeking range ghost touch composite longbows, but any nation could at least afford a single one, which would allow it to blast pretty much any enemy into oblivion.

First I learn that teleport is just a bunch of peasants carrying you at instant speed, now I learn that Missile Storm is just a bunch of peasants shooting bows and arrows.

[Peelee]

First I learn that teleport is just a bunch of peasants carrying you at instant speed, now I learn that Missile Storm is just a bunch of peasants shooting bows and arrows.

Magic is just a bunch of peasants in various situations. It's peasants all the way down.

[rbetieh]

Magic is just a bunch of peasants in various situations. It's peasants all the way down.

You come from a world where magic and peasants are one and the same?

[dancrilis]

You come from a world where magic and peasants are one and the same?

DnD supports it - that is one of the reasons that so many spells have a gold value attached to them, you have to pay the peasants (the other spells are basically free samples they offer).

[rbetieh]

DnD supports it - that is one of the reasons that so many spells have a gold value attached to them, you have to pay the peasants (the other spells are basically free samples they offer).

Pharaohs, even without a lick of Int, Wis, or Cha, are the true Sorcerer Kings of DnD. Look how well they use Stone Shape.

[Riftwolf]

Shouldn't you be able to fit a an army in a strict formation into grapple range? Two people should be able to fit in a single 5 foot space, if all they are doing is long distance volley firing on the enemy. The 5 foot aspect is more important when you are fighting a tactical battle with a smaller number if units, and don't want to be tripping all over each other. Doing it this way could have some sort of penalty if they come under attack themselves, of course. Less able to maneuver.

I've been doing some work on an RPG game that works on tower defense rules. Mainly all units fight on a road, so only the vanguard forces are engaging in melee. Archers at, the back of the line, can also fire ahead. The firing range is important for that. If most units are sticking in a formation like this, and you can get around 1000 units, it matters if they all get a 5' space, or if you can squeeze them together a bit.
was g
My current thinking is to allow the vanguard of the army a bit extra space to fight, but group the other units. Two units 2 fitting into 5 foot spaces allows for effective archery from the backs, which works better for the system I came up with.

If you try to fit an entire army into grapple range, Ursakar Creed will hide something in the centre of the scrum.